Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I feel like I've seen a few people mention the Ice Climbers potentially being on the chopping block recently, but I really don't think so. They were only cut in Smash 4 because of technical limits, to the point that there was a glitch for a bit where Dr. Mario's crowd cheer (I think it was Doc's anyway) was a cheer for Nana and Popo, and then when the Everyone Is Here trailer came out, they were the first cut character shown with a slight buildup to it like it was a triumphant return.

You could say the same for Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, and Snake as well, which I know some people are iffier on as well (though I don't think Trainer is in any danger either), but I just can't really see the Ice Climbers getting cut unless there are technical limits for some reason, which is very unlikely on a more powerful version of a system that handled them already lol

 

[Pupp135]

I feel like I've seen a few people mention the Ice Climbers potentially being on the chopping block recently, but I really don't think so. They were only cut in Smash 4 because of technical limits, to the point that there was a glitch for a bit where Dr. Mario's crowd cheer (I think it was Doc's anyway) was a cheer for Nana and Popo, and then when the Everyone Is Here trailer came out, they were the first cut character shown with a slight buildup to it like it was a triumphant return.

You could say the same for Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, and Snake as well, which I know some people are iffier on as well (though I don't think Trainer is in any danger either), but I just can't really see the Ice Climbers getting cut unless there are technical limits for some reason, which is very unlikely on a more powerful version of a system that handled them already lol

I agree with you that Ice Climbers (Pokemon Trainer too) are more likely to stay than be cut as these seem to be a high priority character to Sakurai in spite of their irrelevance. Based on precedence, they seem to always be a high priority fighter where they were starters in Melee and Brawl, presumably heavily worked on in For before being scrapped (they even removed gravity to try making these fighters work), and they seem to be used a decent amount in Ultimate’s promotion where they appear on the box art cover for Ultimate and the logo on the Switch home menu (Pokemon Trainer is the other cut veteran with this feat). Additionally, I think their two-in-one gimmick is a highly distinct play-style that would a motivator to keep them in. I don’t know if this helps, but they are technically the only fighter to fill an NES/retro quota, which seems different from the surprise quota that Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt fulfill and the motivation for Pit’s inclusion.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

to the point that there was a glitch for a bit where Dr. Mario's crowd cheer (I think it was Doc's anyway) was a cheer for Nana and Popo

Incorrect on both accounts.

It was Villager that people pointed the "glitch" for....and it was just Villager's own Japanese cheer of "Murano! Soncho!" rather than one for the Ice Climbers.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Incorrect on both accounts.

It was Villager that people pointed the "glitch" for....and it was just Villager's own Japanese cheer of "Murano! Soncho!" rather than one for the Ice Climbers.

Ah okay, I see where the mistake was, definitely remembered the GameXplain video about it, but didn't remember looking into it beyond that, my bad, definitely is just Villager's cheer in Japanese lmao

Still, Sakurai said they were working on the Wii U version, so there was definitely intention to bring them back and combined with how Ultimate showed them off, I don't see why they'd be cut now, which was my main statement.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

If it came down to it, I do think Wii Fit would be one of the first solo 1st party series cut; only ones I could maybe see getting cut before her would be R.O.B. and Ice Climbers, still workin' out the answer. So I don't disagree; but I also don't think enough characters will get cut for any to be in danger, so I don't see her getting cut unless we're going scorched earth.

At least R.O.B. and Ice Climbers have an advantage of being added as retro reps.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

At least R.O.B. and Ice Climbers have an advantage of being added as retro reps.

Only Ice Climbers. R.O.B. is just a surprise pick.

Sakurai specifically wanted an NES Retro character, and many were considered, with Ice Climbers being chosen. Duck Hunt, R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, they're alllllll surprise picks. Even Piranha Plant is one.

While characters have a retro playstyle in some way, nobody else was ever chosen for a Retro Slot in itself. It could absolutely change, but it's still not the case.

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't think Pokémon Trainer is really likely to come back. I don't think Sakurai really likes the idea of transformation characters anymore. This was shown when Sheik and ZSS remained separate in Ultimate. Pyra/Mythra were only added the way they were because due to hardware limitations he couldn't realize his vision of how he wanted Rex to play. So, I think that next game we're just gonna have Charizard back on his own like in Smash 4.

 

[Louie G.]

Wii Fit Trainer is probably one of the few sole first party characters I could see being cut with the Ring Fit Adventure Trainer being the replacement.

While their games sold very well, the popularity isn’t because of the character and the Mii Fighters also represent the Wii.

I don't think the second sentence is a very strong argument - Villager and Steve are not why their series are popular either. And Miis don't really represent the Wii at all in Smash, nothing about their moveset involves Wii Sports or anything like that.

I do think Wii Fit Trainer is one of the more vulnerable "solo rep" characters to be cut though, not specifically because Ring Fit Trainee would be a "replacement" perse but because the presence of a character with a similar hook might make them lesser priority. It's like Lucario vs Mewtwo... Lucario wasn't added with the intent of replacing Mewtwo, but Mewtwo was probably deemed more expendable because they were adding this new mysterious and "cool" Pokemon already. A thematic overlap means the new might be prioritized over the old if push came to shove... however I don't think the plan going in will be to ditch WFT.

I feel like I've seen a few people mention the Ice Climbers potentially being on the chopping block recently, but I really don't think so. They were only cut in Smash 4 because of technical limits, to the point that there was a glitch for a bit where Dr. Mario's crowd cheer (I think it was Doc's anyway) was a cheer for Nana and Popo, and then when the Everyone Is Here trailer came out, they were the first cut character shown with a slight buildup to it like it was a triumphant return.

I'm inclined to agree, although it was something I was uncertain of in the past. But I've determined the result of Everyone is Here will be that... at least like, SOME of those characters will stick around next game. Ice Climbers have that in their pocket as well as a gameplay mechanic that is untapped by any other character. I may argue the same in favor of Pokemon Trainer, although the competitive nature of their series makes things more difficult. Wolf and Snake I'm less confident in but I would never say never on those either.

In any case, I think many would find it kind of tasteless to bring these characters back and swipe every single one away again. Ice Climbers as everyone knows weren't even supposed to be gone in the first place. Funny enough I think their absence has made them more popular than they ever would have been otherwise - they're still a highly specialized, niche character in the grand scheme so it seems most people just wanted them back for the tradition of it all and less so out of a deep love for their playstyle. You don't know what you've got til it's gone, etc. All the same, I think I'd rather they stuck around too.

 

[ScrubReborn]

I feel like I've seen a few people mention the Ice Climbers potentially being on the chopping block recently, but I really don't think so.

Well I actually don't disagree; I don't think Ice Climbers are likely cuts either, and I wasn't suggesting they were. Mostly just 'cause they rep an entire first party fighter universe, and I don't think any of those characters are going to be worse than middle priority; carrying a Nintendo series' content on your back gets you far in Sakurai's economy and going into Smash 6 I think preserving as many series as possible will matter more than ever. I just think they'd be comparatively lower than most other solo first party reps, which I do believe. So I'll play devils' advocate because I'm bored

It has nothing to do with Smash 4; obviously they'd be lower than any of Wario, Yoshi, Mac, Olimar, Falcon, Inkling, Game & Watch and (maybe hot take?) Min-Min. That leaves Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt, and R.O.B. as their realistic opps. I think they'd outrank R.O.B. 'cause bro barely has content, so he'd be a relatively costless cut, but not the other two; I think Wii Fit and Duck Hunt hold too much historical value for both to be below Icies; maybe I can move them above one but IDK I'd like to be challenged here.

So I would say they're the second lowest solo first-parties, but again this would only be an issue if enough first parties were cut to actually jeopardize these series, which I don't; I feel there's like 20 first parties you could reasonably cut before you'd need to consider dropping the solo reps, and that's before even considering the many third parties. So I'm really just splitting hairs over characters in no danger lol.

At least R.O.B. and Ice Climbers have an advantage of being added as retro reps.

True but Wii Fit has that historical value; I also put Game & Watch and Duck Hunt above her and I don't think every retro would be prioritized over her.

 

[CannonStreak]

I don't think Pokémon Trainer is really likely to come back. I don't think Sakurai really likes the idea of transformation characters anymore. This was shown when Sheik and ZSS remained separate in Ultimate. Pyra/Mythra were only added the way they were because due to hardware limitations he couldn't realize his vision of how he wanted Rex to play. So, I think that next game we're just gonna have Charizard back on his own like in Smash 4.

Wasn’t the Trainer cut due to 3DS limitations, and and some characters like those you mentioned were separated for that matter? Also, didn’t Sakurai say he could not do both Rex and Pyra because he had enough trouble already with the Ice Climbers in 8 player Smash in Ultimate? I don’t think that means Sakurai dislikes transformation characters.

 

[RileyXY1]

Wasn’t the Trainer cut due to 3DS limitations, and and some characters like those you mentioned were separated for that matter? Also, didn’t Sakurai say he could not do both Rex and Pyra because he had enough trouble already with the Ice Climbers in 8 player Smash in Ultimate? I don’t think that means Sakurai dislikes transformation characters.

I'm saying that they very well could have combined Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS back together in Ultimate since the Switch could handle transformation characters, but they chose not to.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'm saying that they very well could have combined Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS back together in Ultimate since the Switch could handle transformation characters, but they chose not to.

I feel like this goes both ways though, doesn't it? They could've made Squirtle and Ivysaur solo characters and still brought everyone back, but chose not to.

I feel like Trainer is likely to come back because Charizard is likely a very high priority for Pokemon characters, and while Squirtle and Ivysaur may be lower, Trainer is very clearly the original intent of the concept, and with no limitations in that regard, I feel like the only reason Charizard would be solo again is if Squirtle and Ivysaur are for some reason bottom of the barrel priority, which I doubt.

 

[CannonStreak]

I'm saying that they very well could have combined Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS back together in Ultimate since the Switch could handle transformation characters, but they chose not to.

I am sure he had his reasons for not doing so. However, he did add Mythra and Pyra as a single transformation character, so I am sure he is not really against those kinds of characters if he is still willing to do them.

Only Ice Climbers. R.O.B. is just a surprise pick.

Sakurai specifically wanted an NES Retro character, and many were considered, with Ice Climbers being chosen. Duck Hunt, R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, they're alllllll surprise picks. Even Piranha Plant is one.

While characters have a retro playstyle in some way, nobody else was ever chosen for a Retro Slot in itself. It could absolutely change, but it's still not the case.

Not to argue, but while that all does make sense, they are surprise characters by how much, exactly? Excluding Game and Watch and Piranha Plant, one who was not an NES character and the other being a consistent enemy in the Mario games, Duck Hunt, and maybe to an extent, R.O.B., who was an accessory for the NES, were still NES characters. Shouldn't they be considered NES retro characters regardless of the nature of their being picked? Also, if we count Game and Watch, shouldn't we count him as a retro pick, too?

Don't get me wrong, the surprise pick thing is not out of the question, and does apply, but I don't think we should rule out some characters being retro picks entirely.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm saying that they very well could have combined Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS back together in Ultimate since the Switch could handle transformation characters, but they chose not to.

Because frankly, both of those were poorly designed characters / concepts. Zelda and Sheik have no synergy together, and ZSS was far too situational. Sheik and Zero Suit Samus are much better off now than they ever were before. Whereas IMO Charizard hadn't fully come together as his own independent character and works far better as a component of Pokemon Trainer.

By your logic, they could have easily just added Squirtle and Ivysaur separately too. Yes, the "Trainer" would be missing, but you could throw them in the background if you wanted. Instead Pokemon Trainer returned and was very intentionally refined to be a more functional, more fun character. And yknow, Pyra and Mythra exist. Regardless of what you said this pretty much disqualifies your stance on the matter. Why even add Mythra at all?

 

[ScrubReborn]

Wasn’t the Trainer cut due to 3DS limitations, and and some characters like those you mentioned were separated for that matter? Also, didn’t Sakurai say he could not do both Rex and Pyra because he had enough trouble already with the Ice Climbers in 8 player Smash in Ultimate? I don’t think that means Sakurai dislikes transformation characters.

Yeah if Sakurai disliked transformations he probably wouldn't have added Aegis lol.

Granted I think Trainer could be broken up again in Smash 6, but it'd be for time, not because Sakurai hates transforms. At least I think he'd intend for all three to return from the start (though that's also because I don't think he ever intends to cut first party characters, it seems just about all of them are cut for time/hardware issues)

Don't get me wrong, the surprise pick thing is not out of the question, and does apply, but I don't think we should rule out some characters being retro picks entirely.

They weren't added primarily for their retroness, but I'm sure Sakurai isn't blind to how fans perceive them either, he must know some people are attracted to these guys for their old-schoolness.

 

[CannonStreak]

They weren't added for their retroness, but I'm sure Sakurai isn't blind to how fans perceive them either, he must know some people are attracted to these guys for their old-schoolness.

Yeah, I must admit, I wasn't saying that they weren't picked to be retro characters rather than surprise picks. I was thinking that they were kind of...both retro AND surprise picks.

Besides, I know you guys can't look at Duck Hunt or Game and Watch back then and tell me you weren't surprised of their inclusion either way, right?

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah if Sakurai disliked transformations he probably wouldn't have added Aegis lol.

Granted I think Trainer could be broken up again in Smash 6, but it'd be for time, not because Sakurai hates transforms. At least I think he'd intend for all three to return from the start (though that's also because I don't think he ever intends to cut first party characters, it seems just about all of them are cut for time/hardware issues)



They weren't added primarily for their retroness, but I'm sure Sakurai isn't blind to how fans perceive them either, he must know some people are attracted to these guys for their old-schoolness.

I think that could happen. It's three times the work of a standard fighter after all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not to argue, but while that all does make sense, they are surprise characters by how much, exactly? Excluding Game and Watch and Piranha Plant, one who was not an NES character and the other being a consistent enemy in the Mario games, Duck Hunt, and maybe to an extent, R.O.B., who was an accessory for the NES, were still NES characters. Shouldn't they be considered NES retro characters regardless of the nature of their being picked? Also, if we count Game and Watch, shouldn't we count him as a retro pick, too?

Don't get me wrong, the surprise pick thing is not out of the question, and does apply, but I don't think we should rule out some characters being retro picks entirely.

It's simple; Sakurai called them Surprise Picks. He doesn't refer to them as Retro picks, only explicitly calling Ice Climbers that.

It doesn't mean that it can't be a factor at all, but at this time, there's no evidence to suggest it. As of now, it's hard to count something that can't be in any way proven.

---------------

That said, it's pretty easy to see why Sakurai only kept one Transformation Character. Their moveset flows in a way that makes a lot of sense. PT specifically only makes sense in that context. Zelda is easy to separate cause there's multiple different ones and Sheik's moveset stands out super well on its own. ZSS and Samus didn't really mesh at all even compared to Zelda and Sheik due to requiring a more specialized gimmick in the Final Smash. Trying to make a unique command to let them change again doesn't work. It was just the FS that tied them together, whereas Zelda and Sheik at least had the excuse of an easier Down B and an intended gameplan where the movesets are supposed to compliment each other(it just didn't work out).

Pyra and Mythra have similar movesets, so they're easier to work with each other in practice. They also happen to flow fine together in the metagame, so it turned out way better(but also, Sakurai has had more practice with balance plus Bandai-Namco helped). This also applies in the sense of balance with how PT was vastly improved when combined in Ultimate. Especially getting rid of the Weakness Mechanic, which was never going to work well. Auto-Switching is far easier to balance in comparison because it focuses on how the movesets flow into each other. The game isn't built around weaknesses and strengths among the tons of characters, so there's no way to balance that, really.

 

[CannonStreak]

It's simple; Sakurai called them Surprise Picks. He doesn't refer to them as Retro picks, only explicitly calling Ice Climbers that.

It doesn't mean that it can't be a factor at all, but at this time, there's no evidence to suggest it. As of now, it's hard to count something that can't be in any way proven.

---------------

That said, it's pretty easy to see why Sakurai only kept one Transformation Character. Their moveset flows in a way that makes a lot of sense. PT specifically only makes sense in that context. Zelda is easy to separate cause there's multiple different ones and Sheik's moveset stands out super well on its own. ZSS and Samus didn't really mesh at all even compared to Zelda and Sheik due to requiring a more specialized gimmick in the Final Smash. Trying to make a unique command to let them change again doesn't work. It was just the FS that tied them together, whereas Zelda and Sheik at least had the excuse of an easier Down B and an intended gameplan where the movesets are supposed to compliment each other(it just didn't work out).

Pyra and Mythra have similar movesets, so they're easier to work with each other in practice. They also happen to flow fine together in the metagame, so it turned out way better(but also, Sakurai has had more practice with balance plus Bandai-Namco helped). This also applies in the sense of balance with how PT was vastly improved when combined in Ultimate. Especially getting rid of the Weakness Mechanic, which was never going to work well. Auto-Switching is far easier to balance in comparison because it focuses on how the movesets flow into each other. The game isn't built around weaknesses and strengths among the tons of characters, so there's no way to balance that, really.

Well, I could be wrong, but they are still retro characters. Just because Sakurai picked them as surprise picks, doesn't mean they can't be retro picks at the same time.....indirectly, that is.

I mean, I can see them being more so surprise picks compared to retro picks, so don't get me wrong, but regardless of his decision, I think it is safe to call them surprise AND retro picks, even if that is not what Sakurai intended.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well, I could be wrong, but they are still retro characters. Just because Sakurai picked them as surprise picks, doesn't mean they can't be retro picks at the same time.....indirectly, that is.

I mean, I can see them being more so surprise picks compared to retro picks, so don't get me wrong, but regardless of his decision, I think it is safe to call them surprise AND retro picks, even if that is not what Sakurai intended.

You're right, but if Sakurai chose them with the explicit intention of being surprises, the fact that they're retro happens to be a coincidence.

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[CannonStreak]

You're right, but if Sakurai chose them with the explicit intention of being surprises, the fact that they're retro happens to be a coincidence.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Um, Unikorn?

My point of view WAS that it was more of a coincidence, not anything else.

I mean, it is rather all relative. I think that they are surprise picks and retro picks, but heck if I know? I am aware I did not make the games.

But don't quote me on this one, this is more theoretical; Sakurai might have realized they are retro picks.

BUT of course, in the end, they are not labeled as such. Whatever the case, though, I still think those characters being retro and surprise picks is more of a more important kind of coincidence than just a normal coincidence, if you know what I mean.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Smash needs to be "Old School Gaming only", so any VG character created after '99 won't be there.

They should get the guys that made Links awakening's remake to do it, the artstyle for the humans is already similar.

I hate that art style for Zelda, but it would be pretty fitting for Earthbound.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Um, Unikorn?

My point of view WAS that it was more of a coincidence, not anything else.

I mean, it is rather all relative. I think that they are surprise picks and retro picks, but heck if I know? I am aware I did not make the games.

But don't quote me on this one, this is more theoretical; Sakurai might have realized they are retro picks.

BUT of course, in the end, they are not labeled as such. Whatever the case, though, I still think those characters being retro and surprise picks is more of a more important kind of coincidence than just a normal coincidence, if you know what I mean.

It is worth noting that Sakurai generally makes it clear what a character is picked for. Corrin wasn't simply "promotional", but also cause of their moveset, for instance. Both mattered. Isabelle isn't an Echo because she not only has the wrong bodyshape, but because he felt she needed more of her specific personality. That said, some parts are clearly a tad more important; Isabelle can have the right personality as an Echo, for instance, but without the bodyshape factor, she can't be one. Even if Retro was on his mind(which as noted, is most likely a coincidence anyway), the labels are given because that was their core point behind the idea.

That said, maybe he'll look for another Retro pick at some point. Also, I think the confusion is people think when the term "retro character" is said, it only means because they were picked for that factor, when in reality, it is a vague term that can apply to how a character is designed(Pac-Man), what they appear in(R.O.B.), or why they were picked(Ice Climbers), or even their game franchise's own style(Shovel Knight). Though the last one is rarely used, it's why the term isn't very meaningful in terms of discussion.

Related, Mr. Game & Watch having a moveset and stage that entails the retro factors could absolutely keep him from being cut, despite not being his main reason for being chosen. I do think it's worth keeping in mind too. Albeit, in the context of the start of the conversation, yeah, R.O.B. wasn't added as a Retro Rep in particular(which wasn't vague at all in what the user meant, heh).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Amornal1]

So what? As we can see, both series got content in Smash already, so there's no hint of any kind of favoritism or something. And it's not like more than one series from the same company hasn't been in Smash before.

I think that elder scrolls could get favoritism due to both being a bigger IP, but also because his mii costume got first, also, i think that it's bigger that doom in Japan and obviously it's a less violent IP.

 

[Garteam]

, , and are very likely not going anywhere. As someone who used to think Icies were a bit expendable, the uniqueness of all three characters' archetypes and toolkits guarantees they'll all be high enough priority to make a roster that doesn't complete cull Ultimate's. They have too much legacy and individual identity to just be treated as random and interchangeable reps.

is one of the few characters representing a unique series that I could see being cut, simply due to being lower priority. I still think they're in the game, though.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I really don’t like the idea that anything new or post-90’s is ‘bad’ or ‘unworthy’ of being in Smash.

This is a pretty toxic attitude from many Smash fans that downplays more recent successes especially first party series such as Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Xenoblade, and Splatoon.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I really don’t like the idea that anything new or post-90’s is ‘bad’ or ‘unworthy’ of being in Smash.

This is a pretty toxic attitude from many Smash fans that downplays more recent successes especially first party series such as Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Xenoblade, and Splatoon.

The biggest fan request is a character who debuted in 2002.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I really don’t like the idea that anything new or post-90’s is ‘bad’ or ‘unworthy’ of being in Smash.

Some even from older series because I have seen some fan rosters that only have Gen 1 Pokemon with a Gen 9/10 placeholder occasionally.