Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

Give the next Smash game it's own Vs. Saxton Hale mode and have a mode where one player plays as one of the giant bosses while the other players play regular characters on one team to try to take them down.

/s

I mean, that pretty much was the Master Hand moment in World of Light. Heck, Master Hand and Crazy Hand would probably be the most balanced and most easiest to program for a mode like this out of all the bosses.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

This but unironically

Don't get me wrong, I'd be down for it if they could find a way to balance it so that it's not just multiple players whaling on most of the bosses.

Either buffing the boss' health up to compensate for the additional players taking them on, and/or design the bosses with a few extra and versatile moves to begin with. Otherwise, even with a player controlling them, there's a good chance that even one skilled player controlling any regular playable character could still take them down with only a little more difficulty than the CPU-controlled bosses.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, that pretty much was the Master Hand moment in World of Light. Heck, Master Hand and Crazy Hand would probably be the most balanced and most easiest to program for a mode like this out of all the bosses.

Giga Bowser otherwise. At worst, he couldn't be thrown. He's even more balanced, though still very strong. In Melee, as playable, he definitely would not be bottom tier or even that low, but due to the case of having some unique immunities, likely would be mid to high tier?

I'm awful at Bowser in that game, but Giga Bowser made it hyper easy for me to win. It's a giant boss, so that's not that hard to imagine. XD

 

[ninjahmos]

If Snake makes it into the next Smash game, I'm hoping they add in his MGS1 design. And maybe the tuxedo.

 

[Momotsuki]

Giga Bowser otherwise. At worst, he couldn't be thrown. He's even more balanced, though still very strong. In Melee, as playable, he definitely would not be bottom tier or even that low, but due to the case of having some unique immunities, likely would be mid to high tier?

I'm awful at Bowser in that game, but Giga Bowser made it hyper easy for me to win. It's a giant boss, so that's not that hard to imagine. XD

Giga Bowser in Melee would probably be a top 3 character were he legal. His grounded up special is a contender for the best move in the entire game and his immunity to being grabbed fundamentally breaks down the RPS-like dynamic of attack > grab > shield > attack. The only issue for him is that his problem matchups, while very sparse in number (mainly Peach; Jigglypuff being a hard counter has been called into question in recent years,) are so problematic that he couldn't really function as a solo main. It's as a counterpick that he would absolutely feast.

If anything, it's a testament to the sheer impotence of Melee Bowser that this cracked-out monstrosity forged in his image is "only" a top tier and not an auto-win button.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Sometimes all a boss needs to be a boss is some extra set dressing and a difficulty increase.

And to not be a playable Fighter.

What you're describing is a Rival Battle.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Giga Bowser in Melee would probably be a top 3 character were he legal. His grounded up special is a contender for the best move in the entire game and his immunity to being grabbed fundamentally breaks down the RPS-like dynamic of attack > grab > shield > attack. The only issue for him is that his problem matchups, while very sparse in number (mainly Peach; Jigglypuff being a hard counter has been called into question in recent years,) are so problematic that he couldn't really function as a solo main. It's as a counterpick that he would absolutely feast.

If anything, it's a testament to the sheer impotence of Melee Bowser that this cracked-out monstrosity forged in his image is "only" a top tier and not an auto-win button.

Don't forget Pichu. A lot of attacks soar right over it. That said, Pichu's lower tier would still make it a tough matchup anyway. That, and it's mostly the computer who can't hit Pichu at all. On the other hand, for a player, that will be way less of a problem. Still, the fact the attacks go over it means it will give Giga Bowser some trouble.

But that's fair. Yeah, the size reallllllly matters. I think if he could be grabbed, that could change a lot?

 

[Momotsuki]

But that's fair. Yeah, the size reallllllly matters. I think if he could be grabbed, that could change a lot?

It definitely would. As is he can just shield and you can't really contest it. If you try and pressure his shield, he can just do his grounded up-special out of it; a move with half a second of invincibility while being a hitbox half the size of the stage. As somebody who has both watched some Giga Bowser play and toyed with the character a fair bit myself, spamming his grounded up-B isn't gimmick cheese. It's optimal.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It definitely would. As is he can just shield and you can't really contest it. If you try and pressure his shield, he can just do his grounded up-special out of it; a move with half a second of invincibility while being a hitbox half the size of the stage. As somebody who has both watched some Giga Bowser play and toyed with the character a fair bit myself, spamming his grounded up-B isn't gimmick cheese. It's optimal.

I really want to see if Pichu can actually give him some trouble too now. XD

But yeah, as long as he can't get grabbed, he's just plain unfair. The top tiers are legitimately beatable. This guy? That invincibility to grabs and extremely ridiculous shield makes him too implausible to work with. It'd be great if they just slightly change his ability to grab, and weakened his shield. I wonder if any mods have done this? I mean, besides victory screens, he really needs little. I'm sure there would be some unique stage rules if he's chosen, which is fine too. It's not the first time some odd rules have been specific to a character(Meta Knight's ledge grab limit being different from everyone else in Brawl is quite a notable one XD).

 

[Momotsuki]

I really want to see if Pichu can actually give him some trouble too now. XD

But yeah, as long as he can't get grabbed, he's just plain unfair. The top tiers are legitimately beatable. This guy? That invincibility to grabs and extremely ridiculous shield makes him too implausible to work with. It'd be great if they just slightly change his ability to grab, and weakened his shield. I wonder if any mods have done this? I mean, besides victory screens, he really needs little. I'm sure there would be some unique stage rules if he's chosen, which is fine too. It's not the first time some odd rules have been specific to a character(Meta Knight's ledge grab limit being different from everyone else in Brawl is quite a notable one XD).

Giga Bowser is definitely more polarizing than the other top tiers but I do think his inconsistencies in his problem matchups keep him from being at the very top; again, top 3 is where I'd put him. However, I do think his presence, especially as a counterpick, would seriously, seriously distort the metagame in ways that we can't easily predict. The mid-low tiers can still combo the hell out of Fox and other fast-falling top tiers, but Giga Bowser is ****ing Giga Bowser. It would be a completely different game as this character lives and dies by 8-2s. And while I'm somebody who enjoys that sort of chaos, I can't blame others for not wanting any part of it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Giga Bowser is definitely more polarizing than the other top tiers but I do think his inconsistencies in his problem matchups keep him from being at the very top; again, top 3 is where I'd put him. However, I do think his presence, especially as a counterpick, would seriously, seriously distort the metagame in ways that we can't easily predict. The mid-low tiers can still combo the hell out of Fox and other fast-falling top tiers, but Giga Bowser is ****ing Giga Bowser. It would be a completely different game as this character lives and dies by 8-2s. And while I'm somebody who enjoys that sort of chaos, I can't blame others for not wanting any part of it.

Too true.

Being a normal boss(though the only one so far who is basically almost a normal character) already is going to turn heads. I don't know if he's grabbable in Ultimate? If so, we might have the ground work for a giant character. But either way, it's not possible to make Giga fair in Melee without changing his actual data. Ignoring victory pose stuff, respectively. It'd still be cool to see what he's like if we fix those few factors. XD

I'd be more worried about the Hands, who are way more buggy due to not working like a normal character. On the other hand, Ridley in 4 would be an actually pretty easy to make work boss due to acting like a traditional character. I'm also disappointed that Master Hand wasn't playable in Century Smash(or basically that general mode). Like, come on now. My guess is it's solely due to bugs or just a conscious decision to tease us with a one-shot thing(if you could play that battle whenever, you know people would eat it up, hehe).

 

[Momotsuki]

Too true.

Being a normal boss(though the only one so far who is basically almost a normal character) already is going to turn heads. I don't know if he's grabbable in Ultimate? If so, we might have the ground work for a giant character. But either way, it's not possible to make Giga fair in Melee without changing his actual data. Ignoring victory pose stuff, respectively. It'd still be cool to see what he's like if we fix those few factors. XD

I'd be more worried about the Hands, who are way more buggy due to not working like a normal character. On the other hand, Ridley in 4 would be an actually pretty easy to make work boss due to acting like a traditional character. I'm also disappointed that Master Hand wasn't playable in Century Smash(or basically that general mode). Like, come on now. My guess is it's solely due to bugs or just a conscious decision to tease us with a one-shot thing(if you could play that battle whenever, you know people would eat it up, hehe).

I've also dabbled in Giga Bowser in Ultimate, actually! Also via modding. You can't grab him in that game either, but he's kind of dogwater for other reasons. Namely, since he's no longer treated in-game like a "boss fighter" but just a "boss" with a health bar (despite still being a fighter in the data,) his attacks have all been made disgustingly laggy. And his jumpsquat is genuinely horrific. He basically can't move or do anything in any timely manner. Oh, and he can't shield anymore.

His one saving grace is having a drastically enhanced version of Bowser's Tough Guy; he won't start taking knockback from most things until over 200%. Sounds insane, but it's not hard to rack that up when his attacks are all so telegraphed and therefore avoidable, and with how bad his recovery is he is likely not sticking around for long once you do. He's really kind of useless.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've also dabbled in Giga Bowser in Ultimate, actually! Also via modding. You can't grab him in that game either, but he's kind of dogwater for other reasons. Namely, since he's no longer treated in-game like a "boss fighter" but just a "boss" with a health bar, his attacks have all been made disgustingly laggy. And his jumpsquat is genuinely horrific. He basically can't move or do anything in any timely manner. Oh, and he can't shield anymore.

His one saving grace is having a drastically enhanced version of Bowser's Tough Guy; he won't start taking knockback from most things until over 200%. Sounds insane, but it's not hard to rack that up when his attacks are all so telegraphed and therefore avoidable, and with how bad his recovery is he is likely not sticking around for long once you do. He's really kind of useless.

So he's basically a giant Metal Mario in a sense, but worse?

Yeah, that's fair. It's funny how he got downgraded. Like, his Final Smash forms in Brawl and 4 were kind of... eh, but at least his Melee Boss form was still legitimately awesome.

I remember him being kind of a pushover. Ganon at least wasn't in Ultimate. But only cause said boss has an actual harder to hit hurtbox. Unlike the OOT boss, who is a pushover due to the gameplay mechanics(Ganondorf isn't nearly as tough as Phantom Ganon in that game either, but he's still a good fight).

BTW, have any other bosses been modded? And if so, which ones function reasonably well? Ganon probably works fine, and maybe both forms of Dracula might, but that's just a guess. Clearly Giga Bowser, despite being sucky, functions properly.

 

[Momotsuki]

So he's basically a giant Metal Mario in a sense, but worse?

Yeah, that's fair. It's funny how he got downgraded. Like, his Final Smash forms in Brawl and 4 were kind of... eh, but at least his Melee Boss form was still legitimately awesome.

I remember him being kind of a pushover. Ganon at least wasn't in Ultimate. But only cause said boss has an actual harder to hit hurtbox. Unlike the OOT boss, who is a pushover due to the gameplay mechanics(Ganondorf isn't nearly as tough as Phantom Ganon in that game either, but he's still a good fight).

BTW, have any other bosses been modded? And if so, which ones function reasonably well? Ganon probably works fine, and maybe both forms of Dracula might, but that's just a guess. Clearly Giga Bowser, despite being sucky, functions properly.

Giga Bowser is the only boss in Ultimate to be treated as a fighter internally. The others are their own "boss" type of thing (including the playable Master Hand, weirdly enough.) Others have made those bosses playable with more advanced modding (for Giga Bowser you just need to flip a switch, basically,) but it's hard to opine on them as though they're "true" characters since their playable forms are fanmade, despite largely respecting the boss counterparts' design.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Giga Bowser is the only boss in Ultimate to be treated as a fighter internally. The others are their own "boss" type of thing (including the playable Master Hand, weirdly enough.) Others have made those bosses playable with more advanced modding (for Giga Bowser you just need to flip a switch, basically,) but it's hard to opine on them as though they're "true" characters since their playable forms are entirely fanmade, despite largely respecting the boss counterparts' design.

Giga Bowser is technically playable in the previous games, so that's not that surprising. I think Master Hand might be like that due to having completely odd floating mechanics, so he'd bug out otherwise. At least it confirms the reason he was never made playable in other modes; he really is designed as a normal boss, with just a special situation you can use him in.

So Ganon actually doesn't have controls, basically, if I got that right? Or if he did, they're long gone. There's no data on SmashWiki, so they probably removed it later after the playtesting. Then again, maybe he was never player controlled during testing anyway. It's hard to say, as not all bosses would exist like that anyway. My other guess is the controls were like Melee's, with "command inputs" only, and then edited out after being done. Giga Bowser's data was probably just transferred over from 4, which explains the Fighter Switch factor that others don't have. That's really interesting, though.

To comment on something else; a Boss simply being made stronger and given a few new A.I. moves? That's normal. M. Bison is a boss, not a Rival. He's literally what is being suggested earlier. This is actually how many bosses worked early on. They were just given some buffs to be much tougher than average. In fact, many playable bosses either weren't toned down sometimes(which could lead to bugs, like with Shao Kahn and Motaro at times), or as I said before, nerfed quite hard so they can't outright easily win. Calling it a rival is just not correct. They exist too, but frankly, they're still Bosses within the purpose behind the game's design. Lots of characters have unique routes. So they have a unique boss(that is not actually a Boss Character sometimes too). Smash Ultimate is notable in doing that, where they just buff the character with something like size or a Metal outfit. They are not "rivals" because Smash doesn't operate on a storyline in Classic Mode to have a rival battle(Smash Wii U was the only one to create something similar) at all. You just get some kind of boss at the end, whether it's one coded as a boss or one buffed so they are treated wholesale as a respective boss for all intents and purposes. Mini-Bosses really weren't a thing anyway after Smash 64 in the same way. At most, we sometimes got a Metal or Giant, but they weren't actual specific characters anymore. They were just random stuff that came up. Ultimate on the other hand now has specific characters as bosses or just has normally coded boss at the end. Adventure Mode has its own boss design too, but that's kind of obvious since it works differently from Classic's new take.

It's also worth noting that in Century Smash, it has a final character at the end. Ultimate treats them like a normal character, but essentially a boss(again, no storyline to be a legitimate rival). 4 on the other hand turns them giant, making them an actual direct boss to beat. And yes, whether you use the term mini-boss or not, Metal Mario and Giant DK were a type of boss. They were never legitimate rivals in any sense. It's also funny that only one game tried the rival route anyway, which shows how it was kind of bleh as Wii U's Classic wasn't that popular either(it wasn't bad, though, it just was a bit long and with that many characters to use, got tedious. It's more in a vacuum it's cool, but in practice it didn't work out). It'd be neat if they actually did Rivals, but that requires an actual real story for Classic, which... requires way more than what we got. No Adventure Mode had rivals either, and it makes sense why. Smash runs on way too many characters to justify it. That said, some bosses had a similar role... or would if they fought the right character consistently. Ridley partially did this for Samus, but Meta Ridley was nothing like that. The SSE was really weird about it. World of Light had even less story, and the only actual rivals were funnily enough Dharkon and Galeem against each other. That was... it.

 

[Stratos]

With the game Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, it showed us that Mario and Paper Mario are different characters. I'm wondering what it would be like if Mario and Dr. Mario were joined by Paper Mario in a future Super Smash Bros. game. I'd say for me at least it's going to be exciting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

With Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, he showed us that Mario and Paper Mario are different characters. I'm wondering what it would be like if Mario and Dr. Mario were joined by Paper Mario in a future Super Smash Bros. game. I'd say for me at least it's going to be exciting.

Dr. Mario has yet to properly show up in Mario Kart too. That game made Metal Mario his own person, though technically Smash 64 was the first time they had a separation due to one being a Boss and one being playable.

Being it's the Mario RPG games, they could easily add him in. They've had more than enough cases where it would be easy to make Dr. Mario his own person anyway. It's even notable how Mario is not a "proper Doctor" in that outfit, yet somehow he can actually delete real viruses? One just being a fun cosplayer while the other being an actual real Doctor(especially with Smash showing how easily they can act unique now) is one way they could go about it. Dr. Mario being a heavyweight as well also helps.

 

[fogbadge]

Now something I do want to say about the Zelda Roster that I have not fully touched upon;

• Link becoming fully TOTK is obviously not going to happen. He is clearly meant to represent the normal Zelda franchise but still takes notes every time from the latest games(to a degree. A game can be skipped, as shown with SS).
• Sheik is not going away. Brawl was her sole chance to be cut. She also was shown off first and is our second Zelda character overall. This also makes sense, as she was far more battle capable than Zelda too(which made it easier to make a clear moveset out of). Impa, as great as she is, is a completely different kind of character now and even then, she barely managed to get a cameo in Smash. She absolutely could get in, but it won't be in place of Sheik.
• Zelda is always going to be a princess-style character. She won't be changing to BOTW/TOTK because that Zelda is intentionally a different style. Besides more variety, Zelda was only going to be a character design from a game that sticks with her Princess design. Hence us getting ALTTP/ALBW. That said, maybe a Hilda alt or Echo could come along? Who knows. Too late now, probably, though.
• Young Link of course is a mixed bag. Respectively, his current setup makes him completely different from Link and Toon Link. However, he's still the least popular of the three. It's unlikely we'll have 3 Links, too.
• Ganondorf has little chance to change to TOTK if it can't keep his core moveset mostly unchanged. The sword is pretty different, though not terribly so. OOT/TP are the only two Ganondorfs that overall were ever workable with the current moveset. His build being similar to Falcon still matters, as it's a lot faster to fully create a character when you especially don't have previous data that can immediately come back. This is also why he continues to be a derivative. It's just easier to make. While TOTK's design is lightly possible(if the builds are close enough), Toon Ganondorf is not possible unless he's a fully new character. And unlike Toon Link, his bodyshape is pretty different, so they can't take much from the current Ganondorf either.
• Toon Link is pretty likely to come back, unless they want to push the non-Toon style. That's kind of it anyway to really say in his regard.

Now for newcomers;

The team has a pretty clear focus on keeping it to the Triforce Trio. So before I start on that, do note anyone else is not remotely likely beyond another form of Link, Ganondorf/Ganon, or Zelda(well, Sheik moreso, technically speaking).

• Impa: She has a fair chance. While HW is pretty off the table as an outright design(but could take elements maybe?), she's specifically going to use one of her older designs. SS, OOT, Oracle games, BOTW, they're all possible. She's a very popular choice right now.
• Rauru: I wouldn't put too much stock into him right now. While cool, frankly, he's Link's arm. There's not much stopping them from giving Link a new arm and giving him a few more skills to represent Rauru in that way.
• TOTK Ganondorf: The only chance he'd be an actual unique character, anyway. That said, I wouldn't put much stock into it either.
• The Champions: They are treated as secondary characters, especially the BOTW ones who are a hard group. They were Spirits only for a reason. The second set have a loose chance, at least. As well as other unique options.
• Tingle: Probably not, but he's definitely someone they want to show up otherwise. He'll appear in some way even if not playable.
• Skull Kid: He's gotten more over the years, but like others, his importance is usually barely related to one game, not the franchise as a whole.
• Midna: See Skull Kid for the same point. She's however more notable in terms of options, but even Nintendo called the amiibo "Wolf Link". Midna is clearly not treated as that important as she should be.
• Demise: This actually could be plausible as some kind of Ganondorf clone(or even play more like what we want out of Ganondorf). But only because he's actually just that important.
• Ghirahim: Yeah, his time has come. He's cool, though.
• Toon Ganondorf: Yeah, he's really not on the table. What's the point? We have little chance to get another Ganon as is.
• Toon Zelda: Her only important thing is... the Phantom Knight. So it's possible to entirely remake her, but I doubt it now.
• Toon Sheik: Ironically they have a design thanks to Scribblenauts, but unless they want a sudden clone of Zelda and Sheik, she has zero chance.
• Hilda: The only possible Echo right now, and still not happening. Game's over with.

Did I miss any majorly notable wants right now? Sidon I thought was a TOTK Champion, but I easily could be wrong. I still put him in the category of "good luck with that". ...Which is everyone on the newcomer list, to be frank. And sadly so.

It is pessimistic, but there's really no reason to believe we're getting more than minor updates to anyone but Link at this point in terms of "new game design". Zelda doesn't work. Ganondorf mayyyyyy work. The rest don't. And any newcomer is very unlikely. As sad as it is.

a couple things if I may: being important to the series as a whole doesn’t seem to matter for smash so I’m not really sure we can count that. Also the statement about toon Zelda only having the phantom is only true if you specifically stick with the spirit tracks incarnation, her various selfs have done other things

 

[chocolatejr9]

For anybody interested, here's an update on Embracer's situation:

Embracer Group announces its intention to transform into three standalone publicly listed entities at Nasdaq Stockholm - Embracer Group

INSIDE INFORMATION: The Board of Directors of Embracer Group AB (“Embracer Group”) today announces a transformative step for value creation through a separation of the group into three market-leading games and entertainment companies: Asmodee Group, “Coffee Stain & Friends”[1] and “Middle-earth...

embracer.com

TL:DR they're splitting up into three seperate companies. I know the chances of them getting content in Smash is slim, but given how all over the place that company has been lately, I figured I would share this just in case.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

In a hypothetical 'dialogue box' story mode this is who, on Ultimate's roster, I'd feel should or shouldn't talk. Small talk for characters who'd talk shorter, less frequent or get straight to the point. What do you guys think?

 

[BritishGuy54]

In a hypothetical 'dialogue box' story mode this is who, on Ultimate's roster, I'd feel should or shouldn't talk. Small talk for characters who'd talk shorter, less frequent or get straight to the point. What do you guys think?
View attachment 388322

At least let Mario say ‘Wahoo’ and the like.

 

[osby]

In a hypothetical 'dialogue box' story mode this is who, on Ultimate's roster, I'd feel should or shouldn't talk. Small talk for characters who'd talk shorter, less frequent or get straight to the point. What do you guys think?
View attachment 388322

Why Wii Fit Trainer is in the "keep mute" when they never shut the **** up about stretching?

 

[superprincess]

• No, he's most definitely not going "Full TOTK" at all. He has never gone full anything. That actually requires to fully change the moveset. That's what it means. Him getting minor changes to help be similar to TOTK's changes is logical.
• Sheik really is best not to call her that. Giga Bowser is the only true OC we got of any remote playability. Mr. Game & Watch is named like an OC, but is still purely from his own games(also, there is no Mr. in the games, so the gender is specific to Smash). It's misleading. Especially after Mii Fighters now are official Smash OC's too, despite that making even less sense than Giga Bowser as well(Giga Bowser originated in Smash, while Mii Fighters are still clearly regular Miis to begin with. That said, all three are Smash OC's, unlike some of the others who feel like ones nowadays).
• She's still blatantly a tomboy as well. It's great they added more, but it's the same one from both games. Zelda is not a tomboy design in Smash either. Nor is supposed to be. No, she does not fit the bill that well. She might take notes from it, but TOTK is not a regular Princess by any means. Which is ironic too, since it's the first time since the TV Show and CD-i games that Zelda acted like a tomboy and wore a similar outfit. Not that it's really inspired by it directly so much as "this is a general adventurer character". She wore stuff and did stuff like that in BOTW too. That didn't matter, since her core is clearly an adventurer in both games. And it makes sense. It fits more with her new story, as she's nothing like previous Zeldas beyond being strong with magic(technically).
• Young Link is hardly here just because of that. He's a very popular veteran no matter how you slice it. People were very disappointed in Link playing way too differently alone and flocked to Young Link directly because he actually plays like Link should in the first place. Same applies to Pichu. They're very popular characters. Young Link also was added to HW due to his immense popularity along with MM being popular. The real reason he's here ultimately is because he was easy to create and made sense when there was more to represent. Also, he was a major ballot character like all the other veterans. That's what even made EiH possible. So his votes led directly to him coming back, which is what the reason for EiH even existed(the ballot). it's really weird how it worked out in that regard, though.
• He really doesn't. You super overestimate him. He's a completely different character and needs to fit the same bodyshape to even have a chance. His weapon is also way too different, and he actually fights far more like with his sword like in TP too within Smash. Which is why the sword even worked out. It's not a canon sword, but the way he uses it is very accurate to his characterization. Besides that, Sakurai made it clear he wants to represent multiple parts of the franchise. You can't do that by just throwing people into TOTK designs. The chances any will change beyond Link is honestly super tiny. And that's because it completely goes against his plans. If Sakurai isn't at the helm? Sure, that's a fair chance. But it's fully dependent on that.
• Toon Link will only be cut, again, for what I said. If they really want to push Young Link instead. Which I don't think is likely either. You're repeating the same thing essentially.

• I never said Link's gonna go full on TOTK but his visual design like the Champion's Leathers or Archaic Tunic can be pulled from that game as costumes. Could design his bombs after the Timed Bombs as well. That's it.
• What I meant by OC is that the entire moveset and characterization is made up for Smash, like Captain Falcon. I obviously don't think Sheik is Sakurai's creation, but he did originate the ninja like aspect of Sheik's character.
• Did you play TOTK? Because most of Zelda's screentime is in a dress that does bear resemblance to her past depictions. She's not a tomboyish character at all, that term is so overused.
• Then why was YL one of only two veterans who missed out on multiple games in a row? It's pretty obvious that EiH is the reason he returned. His whole moveset stayed the same too, which does give credence to the fact that he's really just a Melee throwback. His playerbase is huge because he's an easy character to play, not because those people necessarily like YL.
• I don't know why it's so hard for people to grasp this... go compare OOT to TP Ganondorf. Almost an entire different design, and the body differs quite a bit too. Yet in Smash, they had the exact same moveset. This can also apply to TOTK Ganondorf, who really isn't that different. I imagine the hardest part would be animating his long hair and giving it detailed physics, which Ganondorf didn't have before? That's probably the biggest difference. Everything else can stay the same save for the sword and some non-attack animations to push his personality. Could replace purple energy with red gloom effects and obviously give him his new voice. That's really it. TP Dorf wasn't a physical fighter either but look what happened in Brawl/SSB4.

In a hypothetical 'dialogue box' story mode this is who, on Ultimate's roster, I'd feel should or shouldn't talk. Small talk for characters who'd talk shorter, less frequent or get straight to the point. What do you guys think?
View attachment 388322

This would turn awkward really fast. Mario, Link and Kirby would presumably have a big presence due to being, you know, Mario, Link and Kirby. But them being completely mute while everyone else around them talks would just be strange. It's fine in their games because they're the sole silent protagonists but in a game with so many silent protagonists and so many talkative side characters, it'd just come off as if they're selectively mute.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

a couple things if I may: being important to the series as a whole doesn’t seem to matter for smash so I’m not really sure we can count that. Also the statement about toon Zelda only having the phantom is only true if you specifically stick with the spirit tracks incarnation, her various selfs have done other things

The point was that it's all Demise legitimately has going for him... not that it actually made him likely. It just makes him the only actual potential Ganondorf clone at best. Which doesn't help that much. I never thought he had a chance either. But really, the idea of getting any new Zelda characters is really damn unlikely too(even with enough recurring or important characters who have the merits to easily get in).

And no, it's more Toon Zelda really has not gotten any actual major skills that isn't already covered by Zelda in the first place. It's not just the Phantom. The Light Arrows is meaningless as other Zeldas already do so and nobody knows what the hell the Light Force is, the only other thing that was major to her. All three of her stuff doesn't really help at that point. Being a clone of the current Zelda works, sure. But that time had come and gone too. And we know Hyrule Warriors isn't really something to rely on for, well, anything but a Spirit(or Trophy-type thing) at this point. ...That, and it was Phantom-based too. If they start bothering to give her more defined skills, it'd be easier to see her have a real chance of making it in. Right now, her most notable and more importantly, defined, skills are pretty much already covered. Bar, again, a clone type, which isn't really why people even want her, heh. Also, keep in mind she was only considered due to being a clone type for regular Zelda, and that's including with a transformation into an OC with Toon Sheik. To say the least, that's not boding well for her.

...Did I miss Tetra, actually? Best thing to say is; she's certainly got potential, but there's nothing to suggest she was actually ever considered at this point, and she didn't actually fight outside of HW(which we know isn't a reliable source of moveset references). She also cannot be some kind of easy Echo(though yes, she could use Toon Link as a body base to help create, but Sakurai first would need to have an idea of how he wants her to play).

We also have to look at other factors to why things went the way they did; Zelda in general didn't really fight in games(and still barely does without some very major caveat, like the Phantom being the actual playable character), so it wasn't surprising that Sheik already was created due to having some semblance of moves, but also we knew she was able to fight in the game. Zelda also in Melee does not resemble nearly any of her official abilities except Transform and a minor ability to move things around with her mind(her grab mechanic isn't really much different from how she uses magic to open a door. And you could still call it a stretch). A lot of other versions of Zelda(not her forms like Tetra etc.) still suffer from this, with very few moves. BOTW is definitely an exception... but was dismissed anyway as an option to change the current Smash Zelda into(though TOTK Zelda, who is a completely different character in everything but name only, isn't entirely off the table as a newcomer if you want someone who actually has something new to add outright).

This also kind of shows why the Zelda franchise has gotten little. Zelda herself actually was lucky to get in, since the gameplay mechanic made her much easier to work in. Sheik already was actually easy to make in comparison. You don't need much to make a ninja at that point, who we know actually outright fights design-wise. Also, it's worth noting that Zelda's inclusion was also hidden during some materials where Sheik's was not. That said, there's also one other prerelease CSS that is impossible to discern due to massively bad quality(It didn't appear to have Sheik on it yet, though). It had only 13 characters at the time.

But yeah, I'm pessimistic due to how the franchise's playable representation is handled in a pretty bare minimum approach with many quite lucky to get in. Though at least Toon Link was actually planned from the start, but even then, he still is lucky due to using Young Link's assets too(if Young Link didn't make it in? Toon Link probably would not have). Leaving two characters who were easy to add on their own merits/without some caveats doesn't help.

 

[fogbadge]

The point was that it's all Demise legitimately has going for him... not that it actually made him likely. It just makes him the only actual potential Ganondorf clone at best. Which doesn't help that much. I never thought he had a chance either. But really, the idea of getting any new Zelda characters is really damn unlikely too(even with enough recurring or important characters who have the merits to easily get in).

And no, it's more Toon Zelda really has not gotten any actual major skills that isn't already covered by Zelda in the first place. It's not just the Phantom. The Light Arrows is meaningless as other Zeldas already do so and nobody knows what the hell the Light Force is, the only other thing that was major to her. All three of her stuff doesn't really help at that point. Being a clone of the current Zelda works, sure. But that time had come and gone too. And we know Hyrule Warriors isn't really something to rely on for, well, anything but a Spirit(or Trophy-type thing) at this point. ...That, and it was Phantom-based too. If they start bothering to give her more defined skills, it'd be easier to see her have a real chance of making it in. Right now, her most notable and more importantly, defined, skills are pretty much already covered. Bar, again, a clone type, which isn't really why people even want her, heh. Also, keep in mind she was only considered due to being a clone type for regular Zelda, and that's including with a transformation into an OC with Toon Sheik. To say the least, that's not boding well for her.

...Did I miss Tetra, actually? Best thing to say is; she's certainly got potential, but there's nothing to suggest she was actually ever considered at this point, and she didn't actually fight outside of HW(which we know isn't a reliable source of moveset references). She also cannot be some kind of easy Echo(though yes, she could use Toon Link as a body base to help create, but Sakurai first would need to have an idea of how he wants her to play).

We also have to look at other factors to why things went the way they did; Zelda in general didn't really fight in games(and still barely does without some very major caveat, like the Phantom being the actual playable character), so it wasn't surprising that Sheik already was created due to having some semblance of moves, but also we knew she was able to fight in the game. Zelda also in Melee does not resemble nearly any of her official abilities except Transform and a minor ability to move things around with her mind(her grab mechanic isn't really much different from how she uses magic to open a door. And you could still call it a stretch). A lot of other versions of Zelda(not her forms like Tetra etc.) still suffer from this, with very few moves. BOTW is definitely an exception... but was dismissed anyway as an option to change the current Smash Zelda into(though TOTK Zelda, who is a completely different character in everything but name only, isn't entirely off the table as a newcomer if you want someone who actually has something new to add outright).

This also kind of shows why the Zelda franchise has gotten little. Zelda herself actually was lucky to get in, since the gameplay mechanic made her much easier to work in. Sheik already was actually easy to make in comparison. You don't need much to make a ninja at that point, who we know actually outright fights design-wise. Also, it's worth noting that Zelda's inclusion was also hidden during some materials where Sheik's was not. That said, there's also one other prerelease CSS that is impossible to discern due to massively bad quality(It didn't appear to have Sheik on it yet, though). It had only 13 characters at the time.

But yeah, I'm pessimistic due to how the franchise's playable representation is handled in a pretty bare minimum approach with many quite lucky to get in. Though at least Toon Link was actually planned from the start, but even then, he still is lucky due to using Young Link's assets too(if Young Link didn't make it in? Toon Link probably would not have). Leaving two characters who were easy to add on their own merits/without some caveats doesn't help.

actually I meant skull kid not demise

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Why Wii Fit Trainer is in the "keep mute" when they never shut the **** up about stretching?

Because.... I looked away and wasn't paying attention. Ignore the placement. She'd definitely be in should speak tier.

This would turn awkward really fast. Mario, Link and Kirby would presumably have a big presence due to being, you know, Mario, Link and Kirby. But them being completely mute while everyone else around them talks would just be strange. It's fine in their games because they're the sole silent protagonists but in a game with so many silent protagonists and so many talkative side characters, it'd just come off as if they're selectively mute.

Perhaps I should've worded it better but they would obviously still be allowed to emote and use classic sound bites (Letsa go, Hyah, Hiii, the likes) but if we're actually talking "let them speak full sentences and engage in conversations" then I'd have to disagree. These three are such associated with being silent protagonists you can absolutely get away with them not speaking full sentences especially with two thirds of the roster still being able to contribute to dialogue in their place. Mario rarely casually speaks outside of a few short but iconic phrases, Kirby is mentally still an infant and Link doesn't say a word even in his two recent open world games with full on voice acting. To me, them speaking would actually feel more awkward because that just isn't what I'd expect of them even in a text heavy story mode and I doubt I'm alone on that. Not that I would think "Wow, this writing SUCKS!" but moreso "Yeah this ain't the Kirby I know"

We don't need to know every character's thought on any event they experience put infront of us in text form. A simple emotion on their character sprite gets the point across. Less is more, sometimes.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

It's surprising out of the all of third parties or even indies that games like Meme Run never get considered or even mentioned especially during Smash 4.

People speculate on Shantae, Shovel Knight and even Undertale for indie yet neglected on MR despite not making as much as impact as Meme Run especially on Nintendo systems like Wii U were Third-Parties were sparse.

Ninja Pig Studio could be considered the Rare of the Wii U being the backbone of that system honestly. It should at least be considered for at least representation.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In a hypothetical 'dialogue box' story mode this is who, on Ultimate's roster, I'd feel should or shouldn't talk. Small talk for characters who'd talk shorter, less frequent or get straight to the point. What do you guys think?

• As talking Pokemon, I propose that Lucario and Mewtwo translate for the rest of the Pokémon cast.
  • Ness and Lucas can do the same, but also for Duck Hunt.
• Zero Suit Samus should be in the "small talk" tier with Samus since they're the same character, and I think if Samus is to say a word, it should be something impactful.
• Mega Man and Roy aren't at all mute. They should be given lines like normal.
  • Similarly, Joker, Luigi, and I think Byleth are generally given speaking lines as normal when they're not playable.
• Wario's pretty talkative in his home series. He should be comic relief, but I think he can talk enough to contribute to a conversation.
• I don't know about King Dedede or Little Mac. There's nothing saying Little Mac can't talk, and King Dedede has been implied to be able to talk, they just haven't been given speaking roles...I guess they're fine where they are. It's weird to think about.
• I don't know if Ridley can talk. He speaks in a manga, but has only ever roared in games.
• I don't think R.O.B. can talk, but a "sad robot noises" gag would be pretty funny.
• Yoshi is generally given speaking roles in text based games in the form of "Yoshi Yoshi! (This is how I talk!)"
• Ness should be in "small talk" tier since he's not actually mute.
• Lucas should be in "can speak" tier since he's given dialogue as normal when you're not playing as him.
• Pokémon can contribute to conversations, but generally only with their antics. For example, they can only say their name, but Charizard and Incineroar can still have a scene where they pick a fight with another character or boss or something.
  • Having Greninja have a lot of wise things to say, but unable to talk to anyone could be a pretty funny gag that pays off once Lucario, Mewtwo, Ness, or Lucas joins the party.
• And yeah, Wii Fit Trainer should talk.

 

[superprincess]

Because.... I looked away and wasn't paying attention. Ignore the placement. She'd definitely be in should speak tier.

Perhaps I should've worded it better but they would obviously still be allowed to emote and use classic sound bites (Letsa go, Hyah, Hiii, the likes) but if we're actually talking "let them speak full sentences and engage in conversations" then I'd have to disagree. These three are such associated with being silent protagonists you can absolutely get away with them not speaking full sentences especially with two thirds of the roster still being able to contribute to dialogue in their place. Mario rarely casually speaks outside of a few short but iconic phrases, Kirby is mentally still an infant and Link doesn't say a word even in his two recent open world games with full on voice acting. To me, them speaking would actually feel more awkward because that just isn't what I'd expect of them even in a text heavy story mode and I doubt I'm alone on that. Not that I would think "Wow, this writing SUCKS!" but moreso "Yeah this ain't the Kirby I know"

We don't need to know every character's thought on any event they experience put infront of us in text form. A simple emotion on their character sprite gets the point across. Less is more, sometimes.

Yeah I get it I don't think the silent protags should speak full sentences either but them being mute when the others are freely allowed to engage in actual conversations would just seem weird and presumably limit their screentime. Brawl's pantomime solution is probably the best medium.

 

[BritishGuy54]

It's surprising out of the all of third parties or even indies that games like Meme Run never get considered or even mentioned especially during Smash 4.

People speculate on Shantae, Shovel Knight and even Undertale for indie yet neglected on MR despite not making as much as impact as Meme Run especially on Nintendo systems like Wii U were Third-Parties were sparse.

Ninja Pig Studio could be considered the Rare of the Wii U being the backbone of that system honestly. It should at least be considered for at least representation.

Well… what do you expect? It’s Meme Run. A lot of memes might not technically be public domain from what I know.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Well… what do you expect? It’s Meme Run. A lot of memes might not technically be public domain from what I know.

Valve refused to let the game be on Steam because of copyright infringement. That's all you need to know.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's surprising out of the all of third parties or even indies that games like Meme Run never get considered or even mentioned especially during Smash 4.

People speculate on Shantae, Shovel Knight and even Undertale for indie yet neglected on MR despite not making as much as impact as Meme Run especially on Nintendo systems like Wii U were Third-Parties were sparse.

Ninja Pig Studio could be considered the Rare of the Wii U being the backbone of that system honestly. It should at least be considered for at least representation.

This joke is less funny than Meme Run was.

 

[kirbstr]

Re: Cuts

I think its funny people expect and to be some of the most likely cuts of the non-derivatives. Fates is the 2nd highest selling FE game (and sold more than Awakening), while Incineroar has one of the most fun and unique play styles on the roster while also being a pokemon and fairly popular in its own right.

Neither fit any criteria for what we know Sakurai has deemed low priority for characters in the past. Yea Fire Emblem and Pokemon have a lot of reps on the roster, but there are other characters that are far more likely cuts from their series that also line up with how character priority has been assessed in the past.

I'd expect most of the cuts in the next game to be the "everyone is here" characters and Ultimate DLC. So are all likely candidates. DLC characters are inherently lower priority than characters added to the base game for one reason or another. Only exceptions being characters that literally didn't exist at the time of the roster's planning ()

Some other characters that would probably be lower priority for a future base roster would be characters considered low priority in the past and echo fighters, so

If there were like 20+ characters cut in the next game it would be these guys minus probably one or two.

 

[fogbadge]

Re: Cuts

I think its funny people expect and to be some of the most likely cuts of the non-derivatives. Fates is the 2nd highest selling FE game (and sold more than Awakening), while Incineroar has one of the most fun and unique play styles on the roster while also being a pokemon and fairly popular in its own right.

Neither fit any criteria for what we know Sakurai has deemed low priority for characters in the past. Yea Fire Emblem and Pokemon have a lot of reps on the roster, but there are other characters that are far more likely cuts from their series that also line up with how character priority has been assessed in the past.

I'd expect most of the cuts in the next game to be the "everyone is here" characters and Ultimate DLC. So are all likely candidates. DLC characters are inherently lower priority than characters added to the base game for one reason or another. Only exceptions being characters that literally didn't exist at the time of the roster's planning ()

Some other characters that would probably be lower priority for a future base roster would be characters considered low priority in the past and echo fighters, so

If there were like 20+ characters cut in the next game it would be these guys minus probably one or two.

I don’t think that’s true about incineroar, I’m not sure he’s popular with the Pokémon fans. With the smash fans sure

also fates may have sold well but that’s more to do with it following one of the most popular games in the series, plenty of people have criticised it. Just ask the people here

 

[Ivander]

I don’t think that’s true about incineroar, I’m not sure he’s popular with the Pokémon fans. With the smash fans sure

also fates may have sold well but that’s more to do with it following one of the most popular games in the series, plenty of people have criticised it. Just ask the people here

Incineroar recently got a boost in popularity regarding Pokemon tournaments and counterplay to something popular IIRC.

Fates was still a good game gameplay-wise, especially Conquest. It's mainly some of the other stuff like story, the Pokemon-esque launch, and a focus on fanservice that get heavily criticised.

 

[TheQuester]

"Derivatives are low priority" is not really as accurate as being made here. It's a lot more complicated than that.

• Dr. Mario was the same priority as Mewtwo in the first place. Both were intended, but neither could make it into Brawl due to time limits and Sonic being available late into the project. Including Roy, all three were never meant to miss out on a Smash game apparently. Roy may not have made it into 4, originally, though. But Dr. Mario was intended for all releases after Melee. Keep that in mind.
• Pichu and Young Link were the only two actual cuts outright going into Brawl that was hard intended. Young Link was replaced outright by Toon Link, who used many of his assets to make work. It's also notable that the entire cast was redesigned to match their new GameCube game designs, so it's a lot unique than just a replacement. Effectively, the Zelda cast all got the same kind of redesign. The only difference was that Toon Link's proportions were not identical to Young Link's, so it can't be a straight-out "design update".
  • Pichu may have been intended to be replaced by Plusle & Minun. This one however isn't clear, unlike Dr. Mario and Mewtwo, respectively.
• Sakurai was literally intending to add clones of Zelda and Sheik in toon form. That should say something about derivatives. He clearly finds them very nice to have. No, it wasn't "Tetra planned" either. It would've said that file. That also said, it likely would've became Tetra for ease of creation, but she can't take from anyone's moveset either. Only Toon Zelda was legit easier to make, but didn't have a Young Zelda to come from.
• Lucas' cut is notable, but only if you realize that "the franchise is finished/not getting anything" was the actual reason. Wolf was in the same position. Had Star Fox Zero not been delayed that much, the canine would've been DLC or even base depending how soon it was coming out. It ultimately was his downfall. Lucas came back immediately, though. Lucas was also twice going to replace Ness(in Melee, but Mother 64 fell through, and during Brawl, but Mother 3 never went stateside). So no, derivatives aren't really "obvious cuts" either.
• Every Echo is really damn safe as long as the original exists. Like, seriously, they're too easy to make.
• Pokemon Trainer having two cuts, along with Ice Climbers, and splitting off Transformation characters were... pretty clearly a 3DS issue. On the other hand? They could've split up PT into three characters. But they didn't. Being a derivative isn't too notable during 4 either for cuts. Especially when among the cuts, unique characters happened more often. Derivatives really aren't cut that often, and even then, it's solely Young Link and Pichu that were not originally meant to return at the time. Every other one was originally planned in but cut for other reasons(and as I noted in 4, the unique characters were cut even more).
• Remember Jigglypuff? Almost got cut more than once. Why is it staying? Cause it's easy as hell to make. This is why being a derivative is an advantage, not a problem.

Overall, it's very misleading to look at derivatives as clear cuts. They actually aren't. There's always context. Especially when only two among the franchise were not meant to originally return till Ultimate(with maybe one unclear if it was replaced), the other two solely not returning originally due to their franchises not allowing for an easy character, and the difference between unique and clone cuts are barely there in terms of numbers.

To clarify a bit;

• Dr. Mario and Roy were never meant to leave Brawl.
• We were going to have at least two more clones in Brawl(Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik), possibly another remake of another character depending on what Pra_Mai was. Dixie may have also been similar to Diddy.
• 4's cuts were more on unique characters, with the only two derivative cuts due to "the franchise isn't getting a game anytime soon", making the other characters who are the first in the series, or respectively, easier to make, high priority. Wolf is also kind of inbetween, bordering more on unique than clone, which says something too. Being easier to make did actually save characters more often.
• Again, Echoes are very safe as long as the original is there. Easy clones are just as safe too(Dr. Mario, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, etc). The more they border on unique but use a clear base is the more they can be difficult to return. But also, we know that "games not having more coming/being finished" is a deciding factor. This is what got Lucas and Wolf cut moreso than being a derivative. Lucas being one got him back really fast as DLC since unlike Wolf, he uses far more easy assets.

A good way to say it is "there is no actual specific way derivatives work in terms of priority, because context and the story behind their cuts are all over the place". Trying to group them all together just doesn't work due to our overall knowledge. If we didn't know about the Forbidden 7, it'd be a far more reasonable statement. But with that knowledge? Nope.

At the end of the day, we honestly don't know who's likely to stay or likely to be cut, there's so many variables.
Every person has it's own reasonsing to think why a character is likely to stay or getting cut, i've seen people saying that Palutena, Terry and Joker are 100% gone, but personally i would be very surprised if they're cut.

 

[fogbadge]

Incineroar recently got a boost in popularity regarding Pokemon tournaments and counterplay to something popular IIRC.

Fates was still a good game gameplay-wise, especially Conquest. It's mainly some of the other stuff like story, the Pokemon-esque launch, and a focus on fanservice that get heavily criticised.

well then that’s hypocrisy cause incineroar is basically exactly what they’ve been complaining about with starters for a while now

 

[ninjahmos]

If the next Smash game has rerecorded and/or new voice lines for every character, I doubt they'd bring back Ryo Horikawa as Captain Falcon. Because they've been using some of the same voice lines for Falcon from 64 (some unused) and Melee for a long time. And even if they did bring him back, the lines would probably just be in his Vegeta voice, because I think he either can't do the Falcon voice anymore or has forgotten how to do it.

 

[Ivander]

If the next Smash game has rerecorded and/or new voice lines for every character, I doubt they'd bring back Ryo Horikawa as Captain Falcon. Because they've been using some of the same voice lines for Falcon from 64 (some unused) and Melee for a long time. And even if they did bring him back, the lines would probably just be in his Vegeta voice, because I think he either can't do the Falcon voice anymore or has forgotten how to do it.

A reminder that they brought Ryo back to do eating sounds for Captain Falcon in Min-Min's trailer. Sure, he'll sound noticeably different, but I think he can still pull off Captain Falcon well.

 

[Louie G.]

I think its funny people expect and to be some of the most likely cuts of the non-derivatives. Fates is the 2nd highest selling FE game (and sold more than Awakening), while Incineroar has one of the most fun and unique play styles on the roster while also being a pokemon and fairly popular in its own right.

Neither fit any criteria for what we know Sakurai has deemed low priority for characters in the past. Yea Fire Emblem and Pokemon have a lot of reps on the roster, but there are other characters that are far more likely cuts from their series that also line up with how character priority has been assessed in the past.

I think part of it is just by proxy - the next game will emphasize more cuts than ever, simply by necessity. So it's reasonable to assume that Pokemon and Fire Emblem, being some of the most fruitful series on the roster with the likelihood of seeing additional characters being strong as always, would be some series that get trimmed first. And it will have to operate a bit differently than it has in the past.

Sure, Incineroar is decently popular. But so are Mewtwo and (especially) Lucario. Squirtle / Ivysaur's lower priority status is questionable seeing how Pokemon Trainer may very well have returned outright if transforming characters weren't taking a backseat during Smash 4. That on top of the pretty much inevitable status of Pokemon receiving at least one new character next game means Incineroar simply has a lot of competition. I hope he'll return and I agree that he isn't like, a 100% completely gone character like some people think but it's not unreasonable to suggest he may be one of the less fortunate characters right now.

Corrin is in a similar boat, and kinda just falls flat against every other fully unique Fire Emblem character. Marth is obvious, Ike is straight up the most popular character in his series. Byleth is from FE's greatest success thus far. Robin gets by through being one of the most archetypically unique characters in the lineup, and is further justified by Awakening's reputation (I mean, the game has three characters in Smash and he's the main one). Fates outsold Awakening, but does not represent the same major step forward for the series that Awakening did, nor is it as fondly remembered and remains critically polarizing within the community. Roy is hard to compare since he's a semiclone, but as far as the fully unique FE characters go Corrin is the obvious straggler.

So yeah, on one hand these two don't have everything in the world stacked up against them like some people believe they do. But on the other, it's realistic to believe that Pokemon / FE might be some of the first to suffer major losses with a consistent flow of new characters coming in every game anyway, and if space gets tight I'm sure they would feel less bad about removing unique characters from these series over say, another unique character who is practically carrying their series on their own. Since they're certainly not staying over the likes of Lucario, Greninja or Ike either.