Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Laniv]

Y'know, all this talk of Echoes and their personalities makes me realize how low Alph must be on the ladder, so to speak.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Y'know, all this talk of Echoes and their personalities makes me realize how low Alph must be on the ladder, so to speak.

Probably not as much as people think. Olimar is made generic. Alph is in the same boat. While new Pikmin exist, they're more important to newer Captains. We're probably more likely to get a Captain from 4 than Alph separated.

Of course, Rock Pikmin being unused does suck, though. That's really what we're missing among the ones before Pikmin 4.

 

[Gengar84]

I just want Olimar to go back to having 5 Pikmin out at a time. I thought he was a lot more fun to play in Brawl than he is now. Probably another unpopular opinion because I admittedly know little about game balance.

 

[superprincess]

Alph has no reason to be separated. The moveset is basically Pikmin & Captain, he fits perfectly in it.

Also, as much hate as Daisy gets, I'd like to see more echoes like her. Characters who only drastically change the base's personality. Funky Kong or Dry Bowser could work.

 

[7NATOR]

So I have to ask, What do you think the Price of the Base game of the Next Smash game will be? $60, $70, Maybe $80

TOTK was the First Game Nintendo had at $70, and it seemed to have been a success, along with other games in this Category like God of War Ragonorok and Hogwarts Legacy. So $70 games can sell. Nintendo also said they look at each game case by case and determine the price point

I think at the Least the Next Smash will be $70, and it will still probably have DLC, which I don't know how people will take to that in addition to the increase of Game price. $80 I think might be pushing it, but depending on how Content full the game is, I could actually see it, but it would be the first of it's kind in the Modern age of Gaming

 

[Gengar84]

Alph has no reason to be separated. The moveset is basically Pikmin & Captain, he fits perfectly in it.

Also, as much hate as Daisy gets, I'd like to see more echoes like her. Characters who only drastically change the base's personality. Funky Kong or Dry Bowser could work.

I’ve got no problem with that. Whatever gets me the highest number of characters works for me. Although, in Dry Bowser’s case, I’d like to see them bring back Bowser’s Melee moveset and give that to him instead.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I’ve got no problem with that. Whatever gets me the highest number of characters works for me. Although, in Dry Bowser’s case, I’d like to see them bring back Bowser’s Melee moveset and give that to him instead.

Interestingly, this shouldn't require the character to be a "clone", as the moveset isn't much different from Bowser's. Though it's clear that just number of moves isn't an exact science of how they're separated. Ken has quite a lot for an Echo, though there's a factor of how many total changes in the data(Ken is also higher, but isn't as high as Dr. Mario).

As I said on another topic, Ken is apparently the epitome of an Echo, the "max" it could be. While arbitrary, he does seem to be treated as the most borderline you'd get. Dr. Mario on the other hand is the most similar of the clones in total, showing the bare minimum of any kind of change(which is funny, since due to his attributes being changed, he plays significantly different from Mario in practice. And he doesn't have a lot of changes when it comes to animations in comparison to Ken. I guess it's best to say that overall Data plays a bigger role than animations?).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Part of this comes from not being as concerned as much about balance, but I loved custom moves. Putting aside the frankly awful way to unlock them and they actually got me playing numerous fighters I wasn't really into otherwise. Scalding FLUDD alone finally get me to enjoy Mario after Brawl really turned me off in some respects. They're likely not coming back given the sheer amount of work to make them practical for every fighter, but they are the novelty that still has me occasionally going back to Smash 4 on occasion.

It's actually interesting to me to imagine the variations the newcomers in Ultimate would have had the concept continued. Banjo Kazooie especially intrigues as to how they would have changed up their specials.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Part of this comes from not being as concerned about balance, but I loved custom moves. Putting aside the frankly awful way to unlock them and they actually got me playing numerous fighters I wasn't really into otherwise. Scalding FLUDD alone finally get me to enjoy Mario after Brawl really turned me off in some respects. They're likely not coming back given the sheer amount of work to make them practical for every fighter, but it is the thing that still has me occasionally going back to Smash 4 on occasion.

It's actually interesting to me to imagine the variations the newcomers in Ultimate would have had the concept continued. Banjo Kazooie especially intrigues as to how they would have changed up their specials.

I liked the concept, and even how some worked... but you could still get them after having said move(it's one thing to get them while in a full session of Classic, but after that? It should've been removed from the unlock list). The Custom Equipment is naturally one that has multiple variations of the same item, so that's not a big deal(plus, you can sell it for easy coins to buy Trophies).

I do wish DLC got some. Though at least Ryu effectively has them anyway. But others don't. XD

 

[Idon]

Customs not returning is fine if they wanted to retain competitive balance, I suppose, I just wish some of the customs made it in over the original versions of moves, and I'm not just talking about Palutena.

Stuff like Bowser's actual fireballs, Ganondorf's forward divekick, and Robin's other dark magic, being the ones I really miss off the top of my head.

 

[RileyXY1]

Custom Moves were handled very poorly in Smash 4 so I'm not surprised that Ultimate didn't bring them back aside from the Miis. In fact Smash Ultimate dropped a lot of the new content Smash 4 introduced, only really keeping 8 Player Smash for obvious reasons.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I just want Olimar to go back to having 5 Pikmin out at a time. I thought he was a lot more fun to play in Brawl than he is now. Probably another unpopular opinion because I admittedly know little about game balance.

Ditto. 5 or 6 Pikmin can definitely be balanced; Olimar just needs to be penalized for losing them, instead of him being able to pluck them whenever. Something like him earning lost Pikmin back through KO's.

It doesn't really feel like a Pikmin character when he can only have three out at a time. I loved the 6 Pikmin Brawlimar had, but it needed to be better balanced so that he can't throw out a perpetual wall of living projectiles whenever he wants.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wouldn't be surprised if 8-Player Smash demanded them lower the final count, in both For Wii U and Ultimate. 3DS was one thing.

They only minorly changed other characters to use slightly less materials to work in 8-Player Smash, but a full out model? Yeah, that's definitely a bigger deal. They also have some kind of A.I. so that might add to it too.

It'd be great, but might not be feasible. However, the next Smash is a whole nother kettle of fish. Maybe the Pikmin & Captain can be unnerfed. Though there's no denying that having 5-6 is stronger, yeah. But I don't remember it being an issue during Brawl? Lag factors aside, of course.

 

[RileyXY1]

I wouldn't be surprised if 8-Player Smash demanded them lower the final count, in both For Wii U and Ultimate. 3DS was one thing.

They only minorly changed other characters to use slightly less materials to work in 8-Player Smash, but a full out model? Yeah, that's definitely a bigger deal. They also have some kind of A.I. so that might add to it too.

It'd be great, but might not be feasible. However, the next Smash is a whole nother kettle of fish. Maybe the Pikmin & Captain can be unnerfed. Though there's no denying that having 5-6 is stronger, yeah. But I don't remember it being an issue during Brawl? Lag factors aside, of course.

I thought that it was because of the 3DS's limitations. They had to make other compromises due to the 3DS's limitations. ZSS, Sheik, and Charizard were separated, the Ice Climbers were outright cut, and King Dedede's side special now tosses only Gordos instead of having a random chance to throw a Waddle Dee, a Waddle Doo, or a Gordo. Olimar also got another change in Smash 4, in that he now plucks his Pikmin in a set order instead of a random order.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I thought that it was because of the 3DS's limitations. They had to make other compromises due to the 3DS's limitations. ZSS, Sheik, and Charizard were separated, the Ice Climbers were outright cut, and King Dedede's side special now tosses only Gordos instead of having a random chance to throw a Waddle Dee, a Waddle Doo, or a Gordo.

I was talking about beyond the 3DS. Please read the entire thing again. I already directly acknowledge that the 3DS having a part. Just that it was probably not the entire factor for why it's still like that.

 

[Zerp]

As someone who despised how custom moves were implemented and balanced, I don't think "They're unbalanced" is really a good argument against it. Like yeah, they were wildly unbalanced... because they're part of Smash 4 lol. While yeah, it's harder to balance things when you toss more options into the mix, that doesn't mean we know 100% how it'd turn out today. I don't think Smash 4 is a good metric for "this thing would be broken" in general. It's Smash 4, basically nothing about it was balanced in the first place.

 

[DarthEnderX]

As someone who despised how custom moves were implemented and balanced, I don't think "They're unbalanced" is really a good argument against it.

My argument against it is that making that many alternate moves is a ton of effort I'd prefer went into making more new characters instead.

When it comes to custom moves, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

 

[StormC]

Yeah, for me custom moves just weren't interesting enough to justify the use of resources. The only real loss is Palutena's extended moveset which I wouldn't be opposed coming back in some form with a customization option.

 

[Zerp]

My argument against it is that making that many alternate moves is a ton of effort I'd prefer went into making more new characters instead.

When it comes to custom moves, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

Completely agreed. I'd rather we get more of any other kind of content than "Hey guys here's two worse variations of Sing (literally how did you guys manage to do that) you'll never get to use in 90% of matches anyway! :D "

 

[Kirbeh]

If they want to recycle some of the better customs like Palutena's and Mega Man's, I'd rather they go to new characters rather than restoring a custom option for just a handful of fighters. Ditch Paulena's Counter and give her back a reworked Heavenly Light (and make Celestial Firework a taunt), then stuff like Lightweight, Jump Glide, Super Speed, etc. can be given to other KI characters or even reskinned/renamed to suit other potential newcomers from other series. Revisit some of the move ideas but not the whole custom move system.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not that we would've gotten more characters anyway. With the exceptions of Palutena and the Mii Fighters, those were very simple move changes. It wouldn't have gotten us someone like Alph(who was the only one even on the table that we know of), who requires a lot of work to begin with due to the Pikmin being actually difficult to program.

But yes, they were poorly implemented. The Custom Equipment was significantly better. It probably helped that they made matches interesting. The Custom Moves did actually at least give options for Palutena in Ultimate to change up, and it would've been nice if they were used more for Echoes(where possible, obviously).

The equipment was essentially used to make Dr. Mario function quite differently from Mario in the end, so it had a very good impact on uniqueness. If only they did more with that to others...

 

[AreJay25]

Custom moves were a neat concept in theory.

But man did they need a LOT of work. They were tedious as hell to unlock for one, but the disparity between which ones were good or not was so hilariously apparent. You had characters like Villager basically being unapproachable, you had Donkey Kong literally becoming the ****ing Avatar, you had characters like Falcon getting literal infinites... and then you had someone like Jigglypuff (the worst character in that game btw lol) who got a Sing custom that... just spins you around, does no damage and takes 500 years to finish. Alright.

They were just so half-baked. I'm cool with Sakurai never revisiting them again.

 

[Dinoman96]

I'll always honestly despise custom moves just because of how much they gimped Palutena (and the Mii Fighters) in Smash 4's competitive scene in the long run lol. Like yeah she was nuts with Super Speed and Lightweight equipped but then comp play banned custom moves after EVO 2015 for good and obvious reasons, but the only problem is that it forced Palutena into low/bottom tier for the rest of Smash 4's duration, and thus had to be totally overhauled in Ultimate. Like the only reason she wasn't total bottom 5 in the former game's tier list was just because of Prince Ramen owning ZeRo (ugh) that one time in 2016.

 

[Louie G.]

I recall the best set of custom specials beyond Palutena and the Miis were Mega Man's. I think it'd have been cool, or would be cool in the future, to revisit some of those and apply them to a semicloned Proto Man or something. Shadow Blade and Skull Barrier particularly stand out.

Honestly I always thought it was a little odd Palutena got favored for unique custom specials. I get the sentiment behind it since she utilized the powers from Uprising and they probably just threw every idea they had in there to show off customs - particularly after the Miis. But in a game where it felt like everyone had some "hook" or gimmick that made them stand out, the customs struck me a bit as trying too hard to give Palutena a similar gameplay hook. Which I don't think suited her all that well, and I'm glad that they moved away from it even if they made some flawed moveset choices. And because as Dinoman just said I do think it kinda hurt her potential in the long run, and now she's quite a good character after shedding them.

I don't think we need custom moves back, but it might not be such a bad idea if they want next game to stand out a little more. I agree that Smash 4 doesn't really sell the idea properly, but given a retailored focus and learning from previous mistakes perhaps they could find a way to make them a little more compelling and balanced. I want to mention the fact that they needed to be unlocked in Smash 4 definitely hurt their utility also, it pretty much discouraged me from even bothering because I didn't want to put in all that work. Make them all available from the beginning and put a little more focus on them than "fireball becomes big slow fireball" 20 times and maybe we can work with it this time.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If they want to recycle some of the better customs like Palutena's and Mega Man's, I'd rather they go to new characters rather than restoring a custom option for just a handful of fighters.

Give Mega Man's customs to a Bass echo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mii Fighters also dealt with Weight and the fact they're banned in certain online Modes in 4.

Notoriously, their size differences became a major problem in testing. Default was a good concept, but then they ultimately saw little to no play, which is why they're currently Unranked. Even without the Custom Moves being disallowed, they still dealt with the size/weight issue, which means that it was more than just Custom Moves that gimped them. They could still be legitimately ranked if they saw play. But who wants to play them when they can't even customize their size and weight appropriately? Custom Moves were very nice as well, but not the only factor.

It sucks too. They were a great concept. Ultimate fixed this by removing the Weight/Size differences, so there's no disjointed hitboxes or hurtboxes to deal with. Just Custom Moves, which aren't so hard to test in comparison. With or without defaults. Combined with way more costumes, naturally they saw way more representation. They fixed it without removing Custom Moves. They simply removed the bigger reasons they couldn't be in tourneys properly.

Palutena suffers either way(though is significantly better in Ultimate since there's only one style to play).

The Mii Fighters in Ultimate are pretty over the place in the Tiers, and without losing the Custom Moves. So I wouldn't say that gimped them so much as the Weight/Size factors. Once given a more default design, they were easier to allow. Considering Mii Brawler is in the upper half of the tiers(36 out of 82), it clearly showed that they were updated well without removing their most notable mechanic. Mii Swordfighter suffers the most, but there's of course natural variables. Having a projectile barely helps in that case, heh.

 

[Ivander]

Give Mega Man's customs to a Bass echo.

For the most part, I think Bass should have Treble involved as his Up-B, if not his Final Smash, since Treble is a big part of Bass. Tornado Hold and Beat could go to Proto Man and/or Roll if either of them were made a Mega Man Echo.

 

[7NATOR]

I recall the best set of custom specials beyond Palutena and the Miis were Mega Man's. I think it'd have been cool, or would be cool in the future, to revisit some of those and apply them to a semicloned Proto Man or something. Shadow Blade and Skull Barrier particularly stand out.

Honestly I always thought it was a little odd Palutena got favored for unique custom specials. I get the sentiment behind it since she utilized the powers from Uprising and they probably just threw every idea they had in there to show off customs - particularly after the Miis. But in a game where it felt like everyone had some "hook" or gimmick that made them stand out, the customs struck me a bit as trying too hard to give Palutena a similar gameplay hook. Which I don't think suited her all that well, and I'm glad that they moved away from it even if they made some flawed moveset choices. And because as Dinoman just said I do think it kinda hurt her potential in the long run, and now she's quite a good character after shedding them.

I don't think we need custom moves back, but it might not be such a bad idea if they want next game to stand out a little more. I agree that Smash 4 doesn't really sell the idea properly, but given a retailored focus and learning from previous mistakes perhaps they could find a way to make them a little more compelling and balanced. I want to mention the fact that they needed to be unlocked in Smash 4 definitely hurt their utility also, it pretty much discouraged me from even bothering because I didn't want to put in all that work. Make them all available from the beginning and put a little more focus on them than "fireball becomes big slow fireball" 20 times and maybe we can work with it this time.

Custom Moves can still be Unlockable, just make them purchasable instead of them appearing randomly when they feel like it. It be an extra thing to spend the In game currency on

In any Case, While I'm not sure if Custom Moves themselves will return in Smash 4, It would be Cool if Characters did get Extra moves to play around with. Something like EX Moves, or Super Moves. I actually think they should get rid of Final Smashes how they are right now, I personally think at this stage in the game they might be more limiting personally.

 

[Kirbeh]

Custom Moves can still be Unlockable, just make them purchasable instead of them appearing randomly when they feel like it. It be an extra thing to spend the In game currency on

In any Case, While I'm not sure if Custom Moves themselves will return in Smash 4, It would be Cool if Characters did get Extra moves to play around with. Something like EX Moves, or Super Moves. I actually think they should get rid of Final Smashes how they are right now, I personally think at this stage in the game they might be more limiting personally.

The problem with Final Smashes is that they're in this awkward middle ground where they're no longer the varied, chaotic, casual mode wild cards but still aren't good as traditional fighting game supers which Ultimate tried to lean towards.

I think it'd be best to just revert them to the previous style and if they're willing to dedicate the time/work for it, also add proper super moves.

I'd settle for the former an be perfectly fine with it honestly, competitive Smash works just fine without super moves. Ideally I'd like the latter for the possibilities it brings to the table but I'm not going to hold my breath for that scenario.

 

[MBRedboy31]

A really big issue with Custom Moves’ implementation in Smash 4 that people keep forgetting to mention (unless I just overlooked it) is the fact that you have to go to the customization menu and assign them there before using them, which is a massive hassle for both casual and competitive play. They’d be far, far more usable if you could select them directly from the character select screen. You can’t even just mess around with random special move picks casually, you have to set them beforehand.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

When it comes to Pikmin i still think Oatchi would be the best option should they chose to put another Pikmin character into Smash.

Oatchi plays just like the captains in Pikmin 4 but they can also fight themselves. You could even use things like Ice Pikmin and Rock Pikmin to differentiate them from Olimar/Alph

 

[NintenRob]

A really big issue with Custom Moves’ implementation in Smash 4 that people keep forgetting to mention (unless I just overlooked it) is the fact that you have to go to the customization menu and assign them there before using them, which is a massive hassle for both casual and competitive play. They’d be far, far more usable if you could select them directly from the character select screen. You can’t even just mess around with random special move picks casually, you have to set them beforehand.

THIIIIIIIS

They should've taken the Mario Kart approach where you pick your character and then you pick you custom Loadout.

On top of that, every custom move needed unlocking. Which is just rng awfulness.

 

[Gorgonzales]

When it comes to Pikmin i still think Oatchi would be the best option should they chose to put another Pikmin character into Smash.

Oatchi plays just like the captains in Pikmin 4 but they can also fight themselves. You could even use things like Ice Pikmin and Rock Pikmin to differentiate them from Olimar/Alph

I'd want an Oatchi moveset to use Pikmin for (mostly) non-combat purposes to:

1. set him apart my showing he can fend for himself better than an ordinary captain could, and
2. show off the different ways Pikmin are used in their home game

Oatchi could perform most of his attacks on his own while the Pikmin cling to his back at all times. As for use of Pikmin, I'm envisioning a context-sensitive Down B, where:

• if used on solid ground, you dismiss the Pikmin and they dig for an item that can help you
• if used right near a ledge, Pikmin will use Raw Material to build a bridge outward from the ledge and effectively extend it
• if used on an average-sized soft platform (or smaller), they attack it in a frenzy until it shatters (like how they attack obstacles/dirt walls). It wouldn't be gone forever obviously, but it would render that platform unusable for a bit

I'm spitballing but you get the picture. Everything Pikmin-combat-related should be Olimar's forte, I feel. I'd prefer him to be the one to master the use of all 8 main types for combat purposes (not all at once but I would like him to have access to them somehow), and also I don't think every Pikmin character should be just "they throw Pikmin lol" when there's so many more ways the concept can for a Pikmin character can be taken.

 

[superprincess]

I didn't love the implementation of custom moves in Smash 4. Most of them felt very bland and uninspired, basically boiling down to "fast but weak" or "slow but strong" variants. There was the occasional elemental change, like Link's electric spin attack and Mario's burning hot F.L.U.D.D water, but even those didn't leave a lasting impression.

Megaman and Palutena were obviously the stars of the show when it came to custom moves. Megaman felt like he could work without them, but for Palutena? They were her entire claim to fame, even being highlighted in her trailer.

Which is why I'm disappointed Ultimate completely dumped them from her kit specifically. I don't mind, like, Wario losing the Flowery Fart... but Palutena losing Celestial Fireworks? Super Speed? Jumpglide? It makes her feel so much more boring in Ultimate. She's so... standard.

So I propose... being a goddess should naturally give Palutena some inherent advantages, right? If she's a being of higher power, I think she can afford to have a higher number of moves than every other fighter. So what if her specials all had tap/hold variants that give different results? I feel like it's straightforward enough and a good solution that includes her lost specials but doesn't require customization from a menu.

Obviously she'd need rebalancing to make this work.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

If the final spirit event is Princess Peach Showtime, I'll predict the spirits and their fighters
Stella: Blue Isabelle
Swordfighter Peach: Marth or Lucina
Madame Grape: Bayonetta

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Alph has no reason to be separated. The moveset is basically Pikmin & Captain, he fits perfectly in it.

Also, as much hate as Daisy gets, I'd like to see more echoes like her. Characters who only drastically change the base's personality. Funky Kong or Dry Bowser could work.

See this is where we differ.

Alph got robbed and I shall shout this to the ends of the earth!

Alph and Olimar do have different personalities and even if the moveset works, it's jarring to just have Alph and Olimar be interchangeable.

Alph should have been an echo.

#JusticeforAlph

 

[Dinoman96]

I didn't love the implementation of custom moves in Smash 4. Most of them felt very bland and uninspired, basically boiling down to "fast but weak" or "slow but strong" variants. There was the occasional elemental change, like Link's electric spin attack and Mario's burning hot F.L.U.D.D water, but even those didn't leave a lasting impression.

Megaman and Palutena were obviously the stars of the show when it came to custom moves. Megaman felt like he could work without them, but for Palutena? They were her entire claim to fame, even being highlighted in her trailer.

Which is why I'm disappointed Ultimate completely dumped them from her kit specifically. I don't mind, like, Wario losing the Flowery Fart... but Palutena losing Celestial Fireworks? Super Speed? Jumpglide? It makes her feel so much more boring in Ultimate. She's so... standard.

So I propose... being a goddess should naturally give Palutena some inherent advantages, right? If she's a being of higher power, I think she can afford to have a higher number of moves than every other fighter. So what if her specials all had tap/hold variants that give different results? I feel like it's straightforward enough and a good solution that includes her lost specials but doesn't require customization from a menu.

Obviously she'd need rebalancing to make this work.

tbh like I said before, Palutena was already pretty nuts with Super Speed and Lightweight back in Smash 4, the one thing that kept her in check and prevented her from being totally broken was how still pretty slow and crappy a lot of her normals were, which all obviously got heavily buffed in Ultimate. So I could see why the devs prolly thought bringing back SS and Lightweight on top of that would have been overkill. Sakurai even noted back in 2015 how busted the former move was lol

Semi-old Sakurai interview, covering custom moves, version differences, balancing, and more!

A year-old Sakurai interview from Dengeki Nintendo’s February 2015 issue. Sakurai talks about customs, version differences, the fun of Smash, balancing, and more.

sourcegaming.info

Palutena’s custom moves were the most difficult for me. On a basic level, Palutena has 3 times as many special moves as the other characters do. Creating her was very hard (laughs). There were also times where Palutena’s Super Speed and Shulk’s Monado Arts broke the balance of the game, so dealing with those problems was tough as well.

 

[DarthEnderX]

For the most part, I think Bass should have Treble involved as his Up-B, if not his Final Smash, since Treble is a big part of Bass. Tornado Hold and Beat could go to Proto Man and/or Roll if either of them were made a Mega Man Echo.

I don't expect Mega Man will get multiple Echoes. So I'd prefer the one that's a villain.

 

[superprincess]

tbh like I said before, Palutena was already pretty nuts with Super Speed and Lightweight back in Smash 4, the one thing that kept her in check and prevented her from being totally broken was how still pretty slow and crappy a lot of her normals were, which all obviously got heavily buffed in Ultimate. So I could see why the devs prolly thought bringing back SS and Lightweight on top of that would have been overkill. Sakurai even noted back in 2015 how busted the former move was lol

Semi-old Sakurai interview, covering custom moves, version differences, balancing, and more!

A year-old Sakurai interview from Dengeki Nintendo’s February 2015 issue. Sakurai talks about customs, version differences, the fun of Smash, balancing, and more.

sourcegaming.info

If the shotos and Kazuya can have double the amount of moves of everybody else, I think Palutena can afford to have double the amount of specials. She could be balanced around it, it'd require work, but I think it'd be worth it. Her current kit is just so flat, and she doesn't sell the power fantasy of playing as a godsess at all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler: Long

The problem with the concept of personalities is Olimar isn't really given one in Smash. He's super generic. That's the reason why Alph works fine as an alt.

They both would need personality changes(and we'd need new Pikmin for Alph as well to help separate them) as is in order for a split to really work. As of now, they work fine.

Character wasn't legitimately robbed. It was bad timing. He wasn't plausible at all during 4 for a split due to requiring too much work to make a Rock Pikmin stand out. Ultimate was even worse by Pikmin no longer being on the radar due to no new games coming out. As well as barely any new Pikmin created by that time to further make the split even remotely interesting. People need to seriously remember that the Pikmin are a core part of the character. This isn't "splitting Alph off" so much as "making a new character that stars the Pikmin & Alph". That's how they were designed. Whether it's a great philosophy or not doesn't ultimately matter. That's just what it comes down to.

Something notable is that while at first it seemed like Rock Pikmin were thought of as a separate idea, it was actually connected specifically to Alph splitting off. So even by Smash 4's development period, the specific Pikmin were a key part of how he wanted to do so. Now remember what I said about the character being "Pikmin & Captain"? Yeah, that. That's the reason Alph isn't split off at this time. There was nothing to really work with yet. Now, he might not get the chance with Pikmin 4 out either. Which would be unfortunate. That said, I would like to see a new Pikmin Captain(or character) separately with the new Pikmin & Alph be an Echo using Rock Pikmin with unique properties instead of Purple Pikmin. This not only gives them both personality options, it also lets them implement their original plan while keeping the original design philosophy intact(which it's blatantly clear they're hard set to. Unlike the Transformation characters, though to be fair, they're a pretty different situation as it was more than two out of three sets were meant to balance around each other. Only the Samus duo did not work that way).

Obviously we can debate all day on how it should've been handled. It didn't help we got a clearly poor name by not mentioning the actual Pikmin as part of the character(that said, making it sound good is another issue, yeah). This poor name confuses people and gives them a massive misinterpretation of how the Pikmin & Captain is supposed to operate. Brawl was worse by letting you do a Solimar, making it seems like the Pikmin weren't actually important. 4 and Ultimate make sure there's at least an active Pikmin among the moveset without summoning one, so it further keeps the core intact. Respectively, the core isn't going to be something people will like either. And that's fair. It really didn't seem a big deal in Brawl, but Ultimate really tore people apart when Alph still wasn't split(which there's actual understandable reasons why, but that doesn't make it suck any less).

For the record, I don't think Daisy is a good defense against this situation. She just simply had an easier time being worked with(and that's not just cause of the lackluster changes they did), but because she really does play like Peach in most games, as well as had an even closer model(Alph had to be slightly modified, much like Lucina). And she's exactly a character who should be changed more, as while all Echoes bar Ken are basically Glorified Costumes, she's just done... badly. It's not even the Turnips error either. It's in general her tiniest data difference was enough to justify it. While yes, the data difference is a requirement, it's still not implemented reasonably well. Though I do wonder that if the animations were far more "changed up", would she have any actual different matchups? Maybe.

One quick thing to note is that because Peach has personality, Daisy would too, and it's massively different. Olimar not having any is what makes it easier to justify an alt. Something you can't really do so easily with Daisy. That said, obviously she was done poorly, but being iconic, relevant, and highly popular helped too. Sadly Alph did not have these factors, which really hurt. I still want him split off, but only cause the other Pikmin are implemented well and he's given the proper personality(same with Olimar).

Anyway, I've talked about some neat ideas to do with Alph well before Pikmin 4. There's a ton of alternate options like Bulbmin that could've worked too. Not necessarily as an Echo, sure(as some of them are far more different from the other Pikmin types. It's really only the Purple and Rock Pikmin who are easy to make reasonably similar). Though if Bulbmin had minor properties of each of the three regulars, maybe? It's kind of hard to say how many changes could be made before it's too much. Just Bulbmin, Winged Pikmin, and Purple Pikmin might be fine to be considered an Echo. Respectively, there would be little to no other attribute changes on Alph himself. Basic animations aside(due to their vastly unique personalities).