Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Will]

I feel like Dragon Quest is too big in Japan for Hero not to come back without some major shift happening in what characters are selected.

Also the greedy evil ******* who held onto 99% of the Dragon Quest songs is no longer among us.

And DQ12 might also be in development but that’s not the point

 

[Gengar84]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I never really cared much for a lot of Dragon Quest music. It’s not bad at times but I feel like it gets kind of repetitive after a while and a lot of it kind of sounds the same. I’ve always much preferred Final Fantasy’s soundtracks. Other games like the Octopath Traveller games have amazing soundtracks as well. Maybe it’s just me though.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Also the greedy evil ******* who held onto 99% of the Dragon Quest songs is no longer among us.

You could say that Sugiyama was a bit sus.

 

[Sucumbio]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I never really cared much for a lot of Dragon Quest music. It’s not bad at times but I feel like it gets kind of repetitive after a while and a lot of it kind of sounds the same. I’ve always much preferred Final Fantasy’s soundtracks. Other games like the Octopath Traveller games have amazing soundtracks as well. Maybe it’s just me though.

He's got a certain style which works well as a concert but less as a vg soundtrack. FF uses many orchestrated pieces but also banger electronic scores too, metal, folk, dance lol very wide selection. DQ is kinda sleepy town Brahms ... which is like taking Ambien.

 

[Will]

You could say that Sugiyama was a bit sus.

You went thru the effort and didn’t even call him sussyama

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I never really cared much for a lot of Dragon Quest music. It’s not bad at times but I feel like it gets kind of repetitive after a while and a lot of it kind of sounds the same. I’ve always much preferred Final Fantasy’s soundtracks. Other games like the Octopath Traveller games have amazing soundtracks as well. Maybe it’s just me though.

Its kinda understandable, DQ's ost wasnt really made with videogames in mind, they were made to feel like the background music of an anime. So of course it's not gonna feel the same.

 

[Wonder Smash]

To me, Hero's future seems uncertain today. But maybe tomorrow it'll look brighter.

Why do you think Hero's future is uncertain?

 

[dream1ng]

The thing about the third-parties is you could make the argument for any of them to come back and it'd be a pretty decent argument, because they're all pretty highly qualified.

But that's not the best angle to approach cuts, imo. It's less "does this character have requisite merit?" (because the answer will be yes) and more when you scale the priorities, where do they end up in relation to each other? Because if there are cuts, some will be cut, regardless of their merit.

Those on the lower end still have perfectly good cases, it's that when cuts happen in earnest, they're just not going to be able to bring everyone back. This isn't specific to Hero or anything. I think Hero obviously earned his stripes, and though I could see him being cut by virtue of some third-parties just not returning, he very well could come back. Either seems plausible to me. As is the case with many of the third-parties.

I just think the perspective on gauging cuts is a little off. I also think people who look at it in terms of company chunks (i.e. all of Sega, for example, returning simply because Sega is still board) have the wrong idea as well, but that's a different discussion.

 

[Sucumbio]

Why do you think Hero's future is uncertain?

I don't know, just a feeling that seems to tell me he may not return. But that could change.

 

[Perkilator]

Fun fact: I suggested the idea of no jackets being an alt for Noah & Mio in Smash before the amiibo came along and let you take off your jackets in the game.

This alts list I made is the most recent version, but you guys get the idea.

 

[Garteam]

It's really going to depend on if Sugiyama's estate treats his rights differently from Sugiyama himself. They may be more willing to license his music and open to remixes, remasters, etc. They may be less willing to license his music and impose more restrictions on its use. They may be easier to work with in terms of licensing but demand more for the license or vice versa. It's tough to tell until we get some examples of how they act.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Say, I might be jumping the gun here a bit, but if that Peach game ends up successful, could Grape maybe wind up in consideration for Smash? IDK if it's just me, but it kinda feels like Nintendo intended for her to be for Peach what Bowser is for Mario, if that makes any sense. Again, probably jumping the gun here, but I've been thinking about it ever since I saw the gameplay.

 

[Gengar84]

Fun fact: I suggested the idea of no jackets being an alt for Noah & Mio in Smash before the amiibo came along and let you take off your jackets in the game.

This alts list I made is the most recent version, but you guys get the idea.
View attachment 377751

That sounds good. I’d like to see their military outfits included too because they were some of my favorites. I wish Shulk had gotten a bit more variety in alts besides just the swimsuit.

 

[smashkirby]

Say, I might be jumping the gun here a bit, but if that Peach game ends up successful, could Grape maybe wind up in consideration for Smash? IDK if it's just me, but it kinda feels like Nintendo intended for her to be for Peach what Bowser is for Mario, if that makes any sense. Again, probably jumping the gun here, but I've been thinking about it ever since I saw the gameplay.

Well, given how Luigi has King Boo...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Well, given how Luigi has King Boo...

That's kinda what I was thinking, actually! Heck, this whole game has been giving me Luigi's Mansion vibes, to the point where I had to check and see if Next Level Games were making this (don't think the devs have been confirmed yet, though).

 

[Garteam]

I decided to try and lay out the veterans by how many new animations and models they were given in the jump from Smash for to Ultimate to get a rough idea of how laborious each veteran was to bring back:

Few to no visual changes beyond updated model(s) and effects:


Some new animations and/or one or two additional models (relative to Smash for):


A significant number of new animations or models (relative to Smash for):


Did not appear in Smash for and had to be rebuilt from the ground up:


Obviously, this isn't a perfect representation of how tough each veteran was to bring back. For example, Bowser Jr. was probably a little tougher to bring back because they had remodel the Koopalings. However, before doing this, I didn't realize just how many veterans got something new. Final Smash updates moved a lot of characters from the first row to the second, such as Bowser and Meta Knight.

 

[PuzPot1390]

I don't know, just a feeling that seems to tell me he may not return. But that could change.

I could see it going either way. On one hand, Dragon Quest is a cultural phenomenon in Japan, so it wouldn't be surprising if the development team wanted to honour that old school JRPG legacy for as long as possible. According to Sakurai himself, Dragon Quest fans had been asking him for representation in Smash for many years. On the other hand, given how many legal hoops had to be jumped through during the creation of Ultimate, I wouldn't be surprised if the developers wanted to scale things back significantly with the next game and get back to focusing on Nintendo rather than the gaming industry as a whole.

A lot of the third-party characters in Ultimate felt like Sakurai attempting to emphasise the 'everyone is here' slogan rather than developing permanent additions to the series. The only third-party character I'd say is almost guaranteed to return is Sonic due to Nintendo and SEGA being best friends these days. Bayonetta is also highly likely due to her popularity in the Fighter Ballot and for Nintendo's role in saving her franchise from oblivion. Joker? Not sure. Snake? Seems feasible given Sakurai's friendship with Kojima, but we all remember what happened with Sm4sh. Pac-Man likely has a permanent home in Smash providing that Bandai Namco continues assisting in the development of the series. The others are anyone's guess.

 

[Stratos]

There are two fictional chronologies in the Castlevania franchise, one being the original series and the other being the Lords of Shadow series. In other words two parallel universes, I like the original series, but what I would also like is that these two universes would somehow merge and the protagonists who would be there would have to work together and intervene to face the dark threat to bring balance to these two universes.

 

[Geno Boost]

To me, Hero's future seems uncertain today. But maybe tomorrow it'll look brighter.



both!

I think Hero would return in base game but without anything extra added from DQ series just like how Cloud got back without anything new from FF in the base game basically last minute veteran because square Enix is kinda hard to deal with

 

[Sucumbio]

I think Hero would return in base game but without anything extra added from DQ series just like how Cloud got back without anything new from FF in the base game basically last minute veteran because square Enix is kinda hard to deal with

Alternatively, someone mentioned here once that the reason he came "barebones" was in anticipation of Sephiroth as DLC thus reserving the added content for the later release (meaning it was included with the dlc price). This could be true for DQ if we get Hero in base with a second character as DLC.

 

[Nekoo]

Square-Enix is fine to deal with.
We're 2 game in and they have the biggest increase of newcomers from 1 to 4, and they have a great relationship with Nintendo right now.

I don't worry about ANY of the SE characters to come back.

Alternatively, someone mentioned here once that the reason he came "barebones" was in anticipation of Sephiroth as DLC thus reserving the added content for the later release (meaning it was included with the dlc price). This could be true for DQ if we get Hero in base with a second character as DLC.

Cloud is "barebones" because his contract was the same from Ultimate to Smash 4.
That's it, nothing else.

They had no plan for Sephiroth when making Ultimate, as we know from Sakurai's interview that plan for DLC 2 happened when they saw DLC 1 becoming a success and finishing around TGS when they announced it with Terry.

And to push even further, Imran, an insider in the gaming world, the one who explained that Steve took more than five years to get a deal for (which later was proved real thanks to Sakurai's interview) explained that Sephiroth was in case they couldn't get Sora.

Which...well, they managed to get both.

 

[dream1ng]

I think Hero would return in base game but without anything extra added from DQ series just like how Cloud got back without anything new from FF in the base game basically last minute veteran because square Enix is kinda hard to deal with

I actually don't think the hard part was getting Cloud back. I think the hard part was having Square agree to put Cloud in base.

I don't think any Square characters are going to be in base (as per Square's insistence) unless that series also gets a character as DLC as a compromise. I did lay out why I believe FF ended up the way it did, so Sucumbio may be referring to me, but in short I think Sakurai/Nintendo were intent on achieving EiH, and Square was intent on being DLC, and so they came to the agreement to put Cloud in base but still give FF7 a DLC fighter, with all the supporting content being held off for that.

So without EiH, which won't happen unless the game is a port, Nintendo will likely be more flexible about which third-parties make base. So Square will probably just get their preference, perhaps Cloud aside if Seph returns, and Hero, if he comes back, I will imagine will stick to DLC.

Unless Nintendo wants to add another DQ character. Who would... probably be Slime. But given DQ's lopsided status, the limited number of third-party spots, and the fact that Hero can just be updated with new Heroes, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The thing about the third-parties is you could make the argument for any of them to come back and it'd be a pretty decent argument, because they're all pretty highly qualified.

Except Bayonetta. I feel like she could get cut and not many people would notice lol

 

[Ivander]

Square Enix's issue hasn't exactly been "not wanting to cooperate". Reading about Square Enix in interviews and Sakurai's discussions, Square Enix looks to be on the spectrum of "really want to help". It was Square Enix who aided Sakurai in giving us Eight and Solo alongside Luminary and Erdrick, and in turn giving more excuse and reason to add more music alongside them, as Sakurai mentioned when it was only Luminary and Erdrick, it was going to be only 4 songs until Eight and Solo were suggested and added.

Really, Square Enix's biggest issue appears to be just that there are a frick ton of copyrights, both little and big, that they have to go through with those franchises in order to give these franchises more content. Which makes it sound like if Square Enix was able to easily deal with those copyrights, they'd be all for cooperating with Sakurai and Smash Bros, which is unsurprising with the amount of press and advertisement Smash Bros. gives off.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like Dragon quest definitely has a higher chance of being a base game returning series than Final fantasy is. Just because the main hurdle for getting DQ is no longer around.

 

[dream1ng]

Square-Enix is fine to deal with.
We're 2 game in and they have the biggest increase of newcomers from 1 to 4, and they have a great relationship with Nintendo right now.

I don't worry about ANY of the SE characters to come back.

From the Square side, yes.

From the Nintendo side, depends who gets priority. Some may get edged out.

Cloud is "barebones" because his contract was the same from Ultimate to Smash 4.
That's it, nothing else.

His contract already wasn't the same because he was in base, and that's going to exclude the entire way Square would've been entitled to back-end profit on the DLC character. That's going to require a whole new contract at least in terms of how Square was compensated.

And I think that's part of to how FF ended up the way it did.

But, I do think the fact that they went from 4 right into Ultimate did mean Cloud never wasn't on the table, just his way of appearing (base via DLC) was in contention until they, eventually sometime before release, agreed to their win-win compromise.

They had no plan for Sephiroth when making Ultimate, as we know from Sakurai's interview that plan for DLC 2 happened when they saw DLC 1 becoming a success and finishing around TGS when they announced it with Terry.

I think you're being a bit too trusting of Sakurai's words. For Smash 4 circa Mewtwo reveal he said there was no further plan for paid DLC, which based on the timeframe, just wasn't true.

I think they had some sort of plan for more DLC past pass 1 long before they're copping to. Not necessarily a full other pass, not necessarily all the characters decided, but more. By the second Mii wave you could see a deliberate division of Enix/Square costumes, which was informed by the intent to have a Square character later on.

And to push even further, Imran, an insider in the gaming world, the one who explained that Steve took more than five years to get a deal for (which later was proved real thanks to Sakurai's interview) explained that Sephiroth was in case they couldn't get Sora.

Which...well, they managed to get both.

Imran also said Byleth was planned for base, which, given 3H's development and how XC2 and ARMS were too late for base, can't possibly be true.

Edit: It also wasn't a claim, it was an "educated guess"

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 17 | No More Herobrine OT

this is also my educated guess

www.resetera.com

 

[Garteam]

The only third-party character I'd say is almost guaranteed to return is Sonic due to Nintendo and SEGA being best friends these days. Bayonetta is also highly likely due to her popularity in the Fighter Ballot and for Nintendo's role in saving her franchise from oblivion. Joker? Not sure. Snake? Seems feasible given Sakurai's friendship with Kojima, but we all remember what happened with Sm4sh. Pac-Man likely has a permanent home in Smash providing that Bandai Namco continues assisting in the development of the series. The others are anyone's guess.

I'd add to the list of virtually guaranteed third parties. He's been in two outings and Capcom has been incredibly generous with his content in Smash. In Ultimate alone, he got two new assist trophies, 21 new songs, 56 spirits, the Wily Castle hazards from both Wii U and 3DS, and even appearances in the Ridley and World of Light CG trailers.

is also a pretty safe bet for similar reasons, albeit slightly less so because some of Street Fighter's rights are owned by Capcom USA.

 

[Geno Boost]

Hero can just be updated with new Heroes, I'm not holding my breath.

ok this is something i could see happen if Hero return as DLC by including 4 more heroes as alt DQ1, DQ2, DQ6 and maybe DQ12 to promote that game and make him the main skin like they did to by promoting the most recent DQ game
but for now we dont even know what will DQ12 protagonist be like or if he does what other DQ heroes do

 

[dream1ng]

Except Bayonetta. I feel like she could get cut and not many people would notice lol

Well her argument is different, but I don't think it's worse.

It's not "what a huge character/series this is" it's "Nintendo has basically adopted this character and she has value to them as they continue to effectively helm her ongoing series as if it were first-party".

ok this is something i could see happen if Hero return as DLC by including 4 more heroes as alt DQ1, DQ2, DQ6 and maybe DQ12 to promote that game and make him the main skin like they did to by promoting the most recent DQ game

One thing to keep in mind is I think each different DQ game they license for a skin does notably affect the licensing budget, sort of like how they only seem to have the license for FF7 (and some series-wide content), of all the FFs. And I don't think this kind of licensing is particularly cheap.

Not that it can't double, but just... that could explain why it may only increase by one or two (presumably w/ the newest Hero being one of the additions).

 

[Hadokeyblade]

ok this is something i could see happen if Hero return as DLC by including 4 more heroes as alt DQ1, DQ2, DQ6 and maybe DQ12 to promote that game and make him the main skin like they did to by promoting the most recent DQ game
but for now we dont even know what will DQ12 protagonist be like or if he does what other DQ heroes do

That sounds extrememly smart actually.

Add an entirely new character without adding a new character by just putting in other DQ heroes on top of the already existing alts.

I'd add to the list of virtually guaranteed third parties. He's been in two outings and Capcom has been incredibly generous with his content in Smash. In Ultimate alone, he got two new assist trophies, 21 new songs, 56 spirits, the Wily Castle hazards from both Wii U and 3DS, and even appearances in the Ridley and World of Light CG trailers.

is also a pretty safe bet for similar reasons, albeit slightly less so because some of Street Fighter's rights are owned by Capcom USA.

I think it'd be stupid to assume they would cut the Capcom guys, this company is so easy to work with i'm convinced all you have to do is ask nicely and they'll give you Ryu no questions asked.

 

[dream1ng]

I feel like Dragon quest definitely has a higher chance of being a base game returning series than Final fantasy is. Just because the main hurdle for getting DQ is no longer around.

I think it'd be stupid to assume they would cut the Capcom guys, this company is so easy to work with i'm convinced all you have to do is ask nicely and they'll give you Ryu no questions asked.

I agree that MM and Ryu seem likely to return, but also, not everything is going to be determined by ease of acquisition.

Unless there are internal shakeups within the management of the third-party, or they are acquired by an uncooperative company, I think Nintendo could reacquire all the third-party characters. They all have depictions that have been approved before, the bridges are all already built, and Smash has the budget to get them all back.

But I don't think that's going to happen, just because I don't think Nintendo's priorities will be to bring everyone back once they start again and have to work with a more limited roster. And ease of acquisition isn't the reason all third-parties are added, nor do I think it will dictate all who return.

For instance, unless Square gets bought out, I think Cloud coming back is likelier than Terry, because he's Cloud and Terry is Terry. But Terry would certainly be easier to license.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I agree that MM and Ryu seem likely to return, but also, not everything is going to be determined by ease of acquisition.

Unless there are internal shakeups within the management of the third-party, or they are acquired by an uncooperative company, I think Nintendo could reacquire all the third-party characters. They all have depictions that have been approved before, the bridges are all already built, and Smash has the budget to get them all back.

But I don't think that's going to happen, just because I don't think Nintendo's priorities will be to bring everyone back once they start again and have to work with a more limited roster. And ease of acquisition isn't the reason all third-parties are added, nor do I think it will dictate all who return.

For instance, unless Square gets bought out, I think Cloud coming back is likelier than Terry, because he's Cloud and Terry is Terry. But Terry would certainly be easier to license.

Fair argument, my one counter argument is that Ryu is basically "Mr crossover" so i think when getting third parties back he'd be the second one they consider (after Sonic of course) so they can continue the characters streak of crossing over with everyone and everything.

 

[MasterCheef]

Theory;

Sora Amiibo releasing w/ KH4

would def explain the wait

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Except Bayonetta. I feel like she could get cut and not many people would notice lol

This is just objectively untrue.

Let's stop saying things like this.

Like, Bayonetta isn't a huge franchise, but it's not insignificant.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Except Bayonetta. I feel like she could get cut and not many people would notice lol

She was one of the most requested in the Smash Ballot, to the point she was added to Smash 4 despite not winning. I think people will notice.

 

[Perkilator]

She was one of the most requested in the Smash Ballot, to the point she was added to Smash 4 despite not winning. I think people will notice.

Well, more accurately, the winner among negotiable and realizable fighters at the time of Smash 4.

 

[Sucumbio]

"... is peoples. Is working hard? Is peoples. Is peoples Terry?

Terry is Terry.

...Is peoples."

But yeah. 4 square characters .. yah know technically speaking you could put in 4 new square characters and it's not EiH (obv) and then you're just contending with smaller roster so say, 3.

Three!

Ok, then let us name our top 3 reps from any 3rd party and none can be in Smash yet! (As playable AT don't count)

Konami
Cmon we already know contra so adding Alucard and Big Boss

SE
Kefka, Slime and Lara Croft

Capcom
Chun-Li, Jill Valentine and Phoenix Wright

Microsoft
Master Chief, Conker and Fulgore

And that's all folks. Cause I can't think of 3 wants not already playable for any of the other 3ps... Sega... doh. Sorry I go to the school of speed weed but I asleeeeeep.

 

[Geno Boost]

Sora doesnt count as square though he is disney there was never a time where KH content was credited without Disney

he literally has micky mouse keychain on his keyblade for a reason

 

[Hadokeyblade]

"... is peoples. Is working hard? Is peoples. Is peoples Terry?


...Is peoples."

But yeah. 4 square characters .. yah know technically speaking you could put in 4 new square characters and it's not EiH (obv) and then you're just contending with smaller roster so say, 3.

Three!

Ok, then let us name our top 3 reps from any 3rd party and none can be in Smash yet! (As playable AT don't count)

Konami
Cmon we already know contra so adding Alucard and Big Boss

SE
Kefka, Slime and Lara Croft

Capcom
Chun-Li, Jill Valentine and Phoenix Wright

Microsoft
Master Chief, Conker and Fulgore

And that's all folks. Cause I can't think of 3 wants not already playable for any of the other 3ps... Sega... doh. Sorry I go to the school of speed weed but I asleeeeeep.

Sega: Kiryu, Shadow and Sakura

Bandai Namco: Agumon, Cybuster and Kosmos

SNK: Haomaru, Iori and Marco.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think Hero will return. Dragon Quest is a historically significant series and one I believe Japanese fans wanted.

Also, I don't think SE is that hard to work with. Remember, it's not just Final Fantasy, and Dragon Quest content in Smash. There's also Mana, Octopath Traveler, and Bravely Default. So overall, they have a pretty decent amount of content in Smash Ultimate, which is a major jump from the Smash 4. It could very well become better in the next Smash game.