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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

dream1ng

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Fair argument, my one counter argument is that Ryu is basically "Mr crossover" so i think when getting third parties back he'd be the second one they consider (after Sonic of course) so they can continue the characters streak of crossing over with everyone and everything.
I don't think Ryu will be cut, but I also don't think he'll be the second highest priority vet behind Sonic. Yeah he's Mr. Crossover, but I think there are more important factors to Nintendo/the dev team.

Namely, I don't think he'll out-prioritize at least Mega Man and Pac-Man.

This is just objectively untrue.

Let's stop saying things like this.

Like, Bayonetta isn't a huge franchise, but it's not insignificant.
I agree with this but I also think under the hypothetical she had received all the games she has but none had been under Nintendo, her standing Smash-wise would simply be... one candidate among many. I mean, she wouldn't be on the roster.

Because of Nintendo she is significant here... if it weren't for Nintendo... and just looking at the character/series itself... it's... well, a series that is good, but lucky to have gotten this far. In terms of Smash demand... I think she'd still be incredibly divisive, and behind Kiryu. And, fwiw, way behind Dante.

Given, without Nintendo, I doubt she'd have been on a their platform before a couple years ago. Just looking purely at the character/series and taking its status as Nintendo's stepchild off the table for a second, I don't think it would be significant/demanded enough for inclusion.

Of course that doesn't mean people wouldn't notice her absence if cut. That's ridiculous. But I also think that was hyperbole. Any cut will be noticed.

She was one of the most requested in the Smash Ballot, to the point she was added to Smash 4 despite not winning. I think people will notice.
Well... the truth behind Bayo's inclusion is a whole can of worms. Irrespective of that, yeah obv people will notice.

Having said that, I don't think she's going to be among the more requested third-parties to bring back, should she be one of several who are cut. Despite having been a popular character pre-inclusion. I know that seems like a bold claim, but think about who the other third-parties are.

Yet having said that, I nevertheless don't think she will be cut.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Sora doesnt count as square though he is disney there was never a time where KH content was credited without Disney

he literally has micky mouse keychain on his keyblade for a reason
Both Square and Disney own Kingdom Hearts.

They co-own it. Neither can do anything with it, without the other's permission.
 

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Thanks for the link, as that is exactly the article I was thinking of.

Not to add on to the already long analysis, but I am curious: Is Hatsune Miku on the list? Not like a big supporter of her or anything (Though the Voltage stuff going on right now has been pretty cool and is probably why she came to mind at all), I just find her an interesting topic of discussion. Last time I believe she was brought up here it she was generally seen as a grey area.
Yeah, I'll go into that in more detail. :)
 

Wonder Smash

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Sora doesnt count as square though he is disney there was never a time where KH content was credited without Disney

he literally has micky mouse keychain on his keyblade for a reason
But I also don't think it was ever credited without Square either.

And the Mickey Mouse chain is just...part of his look.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I don't think Ryu will be cut, but I also don't think he'll be the second highest priority vet behind Sonic. Yeah he's Mr. Crossover, but I think there are more important factors to Nintendo/the dev team.

Namely, I don't think he'll out-prioritize at least Mega Man and Pac-Man.


I agree with this but I also think under the hypothetical she had received all the games she has but none had been under Nintendo, her standing Smash-wise would simply be... one candidate among many. I mean, she wouldn't be on the roster.

Because of Nintendo she is significant here... if it weren't for Nintendo... and just looking at the character/series itself... it's... well, a series that is good, but lucky to have gotten this far. In terms of Smash demand... I think she'd still be incredibly divisive, and behind Kiryu. And, fwiw, way behind Dante.

Given, without Nintendo, I doubt she'd have been on a their platform before a couple years ago. Just looking purely at the character/series and taking its status as Nintendo's stepchild off the table for a second, I don't think it would be significant/demanded enough for inclusion.

Of course that doesn't mean people wouldn't notice her absence if cut. That's ridiculous. But I also think that was hyperbole. Any cut will be noticed.


Well... the truth behind Bayo's inclusion is a whole can of worms. Irrespective of that, yeah obv people will notice.

Having said that, I don't think she's going to be among the more requested third-parties to bring back, should she be one of several who are cut. Despite having been a popular character pre-inclusion. I know that seems like a bold claim, but think about who the other third-parties are.

Yet having said that, I nevertheless don't think she will be cut.
I agree with the sentiment, that without Nintendo's involvement, she wouldn't be nearly as popular. Heck, she'd be dead.

But I'm not choosing to look at hypotheticals. I'm looking at the reality we're in where Bayonetta is bolstered by Nintendo's hand and is practically first party.

Bayonetta was also helped by timing. Bayonetta 2 was pretty much the only major third party game that was exclusive for the Wii U. In a time period of very few notable hits, she stood out.

I'll agree that she's lucky in many aspects. But I do think it's important not to ignore her strengths too.

She's not like the third party equivalent of... Ice Climber or Electroplankton or something.
 

CannonStreak

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i just simply google up who owns kh and the result is disney

Here is more to the whole thing.

 

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i just simply google up who owns kh and the result is disney

Hmmm.

The more research I do, the more you seem to be correct. It seems Square has some ownership over the games, but Disney owns the IP.

Weird. Still I was mistaken.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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For Sega reps, I definitely want to see Shining Force get some love, but there's a ton of other Sega characters besides just Sonic ones that could be lovely. It's really hard for me to choose anything due to that(and also, to be fair, a lot I never really got into, heh).
 

dream1ng

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I agree with the sentiment, that without Nintendo's involvement, she wouldn't be nearly as popular. Heck, she'd be dead.

But I'm not choosing to look at hypotheticals. I'm looking at the reality we're in where Bayonetta is bolstered by Nintendo's hand and is practically first party.

Bayonetta was also helped by timing. Bayonetta 2 was pretty much the only major third party game that was exclusive for the Wii U. In a time period of very few notable hits, she stood out.

I'll agree that she's lucky in many aspects. But I do think it's important not to ignore her strengths too.

She's not like the third party equivalent of... Ice Climber or Electroplankton or something.
Right, she has the Nintendo connection, which is why she got in, but she's not a Nintendo character, which is why you can still compare her to other third-parties.

In our reality Bayonetta may be significant within a certain context, but within a different context she's... of dubious overall significance against her contemporaries. I think both viewpoints have truth to them, or at least defensibility. So, on one hand, she holds a significance to Nintendo. And as a vet, a unique vet representing her own third-party series, she holds significance on the roster. That's a significant role. On the other, as a general third-party character/series, I don't think it's entirely incorrect to not consider her hugely significant overall, esp when looking at the third-party baseline in Smash.

Of course that's not to suggest her absence would be imperceptible, but again I think that was exaggeration.
 

SPEN18

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I can only imagine the salt there would be from some fans if Bayo came back but some other third parties got cut
 

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I can only imagine the salt there would be from some fans if Bayo came back but some other third parties got cut
I don't think Bayonetta would be targeted there. Bayonetta is considered rather likely to return and many see her as a package deal with Sonic. General consensus seems to be "well of course she'd be back."

That aside, vets rarely get targeted for things like that. Newcomers do. Most of the venom would go to them.
 

Stratos

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Will they be putting characters from Dragon Quest into the Kingdom Hearts series in the future? Besides, the Kingdom Hearts series is a collaboration between Disney and Square Enix and Dragon Quest is from Square Enix.
 

dream1ng

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For Sega reps, I definitely want to see Shining Force get some love, but there's a ton of other Sega characters besides just Sonic ones that could be lovely. It's really hard for me to choose anything due to that(and also, to be fair, a lot I never really got into, heh).
No hate for it, but if we got Shining Force before Golden Sun I might just have to bang my head on the table.
 

Wonder Smash

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Will they be putting characters from Dragon Quest into the Kingdom Hearts series in the future? Besides, the Kingdom Hearts series is a collaboration between Disney and Square Enix and Dragon Quest is from Square Enix.
After all this time, I'm not really expecting it.
 

Geno Boost

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Will they be putting characters from Dragon Quest into the Kingdom Hearts series in the future? Besides, the Kingdom Hearts series is a collaboration between Disney and Square Enix and Dragon Quest is from Square Enix.
Nah I expect Star Wars would be next to crossover with kingdom hearts there is still a lot of Disney franchise left kingdom hearts could crossover with
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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...I mean, Golden Sun is in before Shining Force. XD

Jokes aside, I was thinking of who I wanted as a Sega-owned rep. Them both being developed by Camelot wasn't even on my mind. Though frankly, it's irrelevant to me anyway. I want both Max and Isaac in.
 

dream1ng

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I like Golden Sun, but the series wouldn't have happened without Shining in the Darkness and Shining Force.
Yup, and it's why we're all so dismayed at how they included Shulk before Fei Fong Wong and KOS-MOS.
 

dream1ng

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You know what? Even putting Smash aside, Isaac should have gotten one appearance in a Mario Golf game. I don't care if him being there wouldn't make sense, he's a Camelot character that deserved the spotlight and the chance to demonstrate his ability to get an eagle on a par 5 hole.
If Camelot have no intention/time/ability to return to Golden Sun any time soon, sticking him in one of their sports games as, like, a hidden bonus character would at least be a nice little nod to their other series. I mean in Tennis it'd be pretty funny if he used the psynergy hand instead of a racket.
 

Ivander

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If Kingdom Hearts were to introduce world based on Square Enix, my only request is
  • No worlds based on Final Fantasy
  • Original plots only
Aside from The World Ends with You and Einhander, the closest other franchise that almost got in Kingdom Hearts was Parasite Eve, as Aya was suggested as a character in Aerith's role before they decided to put in Aerith. Ironically, Aya Brea in 3rd Birthday was voiced by Maaya Sakamoto, who did Aerith starting with Kingdom Hearts.
 

chocolatejr9

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Aside from The World Ends with You and Einhander, the closest other franchise that almost got in Kingdom Hearts was Parasite Eve, as Aya was suggested as a character in Aerith's role before they decided to put in Aerith. Ironically, Aya Brea in 3rd Birthday was voiced by Maaya Sakamoto, who did Aerith starting with Kingdom Hearts.
Huh. I would not be opposed to that. Curious how that would work, though: wasn't Parasite Eve based on a book?
 

SPEN18

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I don't think Bayonetta would be targeted there. Bayonetta is considered rather likely to return and many see her as a package deal with Sonic. General consensus seems to be "well of course she'd be back."

That aside, vets rarely get targeted for things like that. Newcomers do. Most of the venom would go to them.
I mean they shouldn't view her as a package deal with Sonic because that's definitely not how it's going to work, but I don't disagree that many fans see it that way, even though it's incorrect thinking.

But I mean, if there are more significant cuts and the resource crunch is made more obvious, then I could absolutely see vets being targeted more than before because the thinking will be "why would they keep this character when they should've kept my favorite." Not that this thinking is healthy but I can see it happening more than before.

Though I could also see people writing off third party cuts as licensing issues alone and underestimating the resource crunch factor. Then again, if we end up with some companies where some of their vets return but not all, then writing the cuts off that way will be even less viable.
 
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Ivander

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Huh. I would not be opposed to that. Curious how that would work, though: wasn't Parasite Eve based on a book?
It was, but the characters not in the book, like Aya Brea, were original and they had the rights to those characters, similar to Geno, Mallow, etc, although supposedly more easier for them to use. So while they can't use the title Parasite Eve anymore, they can still use the characters, hence the attempt with the PSP game and title, The 3rd Birthday.
 

dream1ng

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It's probably going to be whoever the newest Hero is (assuming feasibility) for the same reason it was Luminary.

But I'm pretty sure Sakurai wanted it to be Erdrick.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Didn't DQ11 become the best selling title in the series? If is that so, I think there's a legit argument to be made in favor of keeping Luminary as default for recognizability alone.
I think DQ3 does beat it in current numbers(not finding an easy source), but DQ3 only sold one million in opening, while XI sold a whopping two million, already beating it out.

By 2021, XIS etc. did get up to 6 million worldwide. I'm pretty sure DQ3 has more overall sales, though?? However, it's worth noting one has a massive impact even then. This might also be part of why Luminary was chosen in the first place. It's the best selling game in its first opening. It was obvious why he was the main face, due to a remake being planned.

They also decided to base the content mostly around Luminary with the rest playing a clear second fiddle. Exceptions were a single trailer, and eventually changing it so Dragon Quest III is the year being represented for All-Star Mode(which mind you, doesn't actually make much sense. Ignoring bias, you should be using the first game in the franchise, where it all started, or stick with Luminary, the actual face of the Hero in Smash).

(Note that I'd prefer it being shuffled among alts so Hero can appear in four possible orders within All-Star, making each Hero feel like they're contributing something to it. They're all valuable and worth noting).

That said, there's also the common misconception that Kirby uses Erdrick's Equipment. He uses Erwin's Equipment, which is intentionally similar to Erdrick's(for many reasons). You could say it's the best of both worlds, since it still reminds one of Erdrick.

It's probably going to be whoever the newest Hero is (assuming feasibility) for the same reason it was Luminary.

But I'm pretty sure Sakurai wanted it to be Erdrick.
He confirmed a while back Erdrick was his personal choice. You can see a little clear bias in All-Star's change too. Albeit, him appearing in another trailer could be related to a thematic factor, not bias.

However, changing it also means they need a new amiibo, a better stage, new spirits, yet another change to All-Star(unless it gets another overhaul anyway), new model stuff and animations, possibly other major changes. It's probably more likely the new Hero might help them boost the amount of costumes from 4 to 8 unique ones, though, if he's even... similar to the proper proportions/abilities enough. I wouldn't put too much stuck into this case being a rotation. It's a lot more work than others. It's not likely that feasible.

Ah, right, I forgot to mention; as a 3rd party set of characters, they all are pretty costly as is. Rotating out means spending an extreme amount of money to justify every new change and amiibo alone. This is probably why we only got one amiibo in the first place. This isn't like Link who can be changed out on a whim since Miyamoto/Nintendo/etc. would at most just want to make sure it's a design they approve of. Sakurai isn't paying extra for every new costume here. Even a fifth costume is not going to be remotely cheap. Most 3rd party characters also tend to have weaker costumes, but it's not just "oh, hey, companies don't want the design to deviate that much", it still costs extra money for each design, especially if they're significant alts instead of clearly a new pair of clothes. Square-Enix along with its other companies that control Dragon Quest is quite a few, and they all get a piece of the licensing pie. That means even 4 costumes was going to be pricey alone. Changing out the main amiibo and face is not an idea that would go well. I mean, every new Link still looks like the old one. And considering, as noted, they can't get an amiibo for all, it's even harder to justify rotation here. Price just doesn't add up for anything beyond hopefully a new Alt or a Mii Costume, really. Or a Spirit. Whoever the 12th Hero is, there's no way they'll be absent if Hero in general returns, it's just not feasible for a rotating face. If they made amiibo for all of them, they could justify it on a whim, though. Nothing really changes(and they don't necessarily need to change the stage to fit, but it would make sense for each new Smash game, to get more unique content in and all).
 
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Wonder Smash

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Didn't DQ11 become the best selling title in the series? If is that so, I think there's a legit argument to be made in favor of keeping Luminary as default for recognizability alone.
I don't know about that but Dragon Quest III, which was one of the best selling games on the NES (even over the other DQ games) has gotten so many remakes over the years, so it's pretty significant to the series.

They also decided to base the content mostly around Luminary with the rest playing a clear second fiddle. Exceptions were a single trailer, and eventually changing it so Dragon Quest III is the year being represented for All-Star Mode(which mind you, doesn't actually make much sense. Ignoring bias, you should be using the first game in the franchise, where it all started, or stick with Luminary, the actual face of the Hero in Smash).
To be fair, that could easily be explained, as the first Hero is not actually playable, so it wouldn't make any sense to have them represent his game in that way.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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To be fair, that could easily be explained, as the first Hero is not actually playable, so it wouldn't make any sense to have them represent his game in that way.
Actually, it still does. It's the franchise's debut and is the most important one, which still gets the second most Spirits too. Our Mii costumes are mostly all over the place, except Slime and Erdrick's Equipment are also from 1(with 1 costume each from two separate sources, for 4 total). So even then, after XI, it's the most noted one.

...Though actually, in terms of all elements appearing(as in which debut game), Dragon Quest I has the most material, with IX being second. III is, funnily enough, third, and VIII clocks in at fourth. The rest are much smaller. Though it's worth noting not every Spirit is from 1, 3, 4, 8, and 11. 2 also gets some Spirits.

But overall, DQ1 is the most represented, not XI. A bit surprising, but being, you know, the original game, it makes a lot of sense. All three mentioned games(1, 3, 11) have very good reasons for it. The only actual reason it's not as easy is that the original Hero isn't a costume(though Solo's second costume is meant to be similar), but then it would've still made way more sense to stick with Luminary. As I said, it's more bias than straight-out logic. They had a logical formula from the beginning. Not that Sakurai being biased is wrong, it's just the most logical reason in the end.
 

Wonder Smash

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Actually, it still does. It's the franchise's debut and is the most important one, which still gets the second most Spirits too. Our Mii costumes are mostly all over the place, except Slime and Erdrick's Equipment are also from 1(with 1 costume each from two separate sources, for 4 total). So even then, after XI, it's the most noted one.

...Though actually, in terms of all elements appearing(as in which debut game), Dragon Quest I has the most material, with IX being second. III is, funnily enough, third, and VIII clocks in at fourth. The rest are much smaller. Though it's worth noting not every Spirit is from 1, 3, 4, 8, and 11. 2 also gets some Spirits.

But overall, DQ1 is the most represented, not XI. A bit surprising, but being, you know, the original game, it makes a lot of sense. All three mentioned games(1, 3, 11) have very good reasons for it. The only actual reason it's not as easy is that the original Hero isn't a costume(though Solo's second costume is meant to be similar), but then it would've still made way more sense to stick with Luminary. As I said, it's more bias than straight-out logic. They had a logical formula from the beginning. Not that Sakurai being biased is wrong, it's just the most logical reason in the end.
They're clearly going by character debut in All-Star Mode, so in this case, if the first Hero is not playable, it makes no sense for Hero to show up in his place like he is. Erdrick is the oldest of the bunch that is playable, so that would explain why Hero would appear in his place, even if Luminary is the default. So it does make more sense that way. It's a character thing and not really a series thing. If it was about a series, Ness would be representing Earthbound Beginnings but like I said, it's all specifically about the characters themselves.
 
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