Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[chocolatejr9]

Looks like it's that time again:

Japan: Nintendo updates Nintendo Direct page today, generally precedes a presentation https://t.co/fx7UNTeLe1

— My Nintendo News (@MyNintendoNews) June 8, 2023

 

[StrangeKitten]

Looks like it's that time again:

Japan: Nintendo updates Nintendo Direct page today, generally precedes a presentation https://t.co/fx7UNTeLe1

— My Nintendo News (@MyNintendoNews) June 8, 2023

Time for me to get let down again about the lack of a new DK game!

 

[CannonStreak]

Looks like it's that time again:

Japan: Nintendo updates Nintendo Direct page today, generally precedes a presentation https://t.co/fx7UNTeLe1

— My Nintendo News (@MyNintendoNews) June 8, 2023

So, how likely is it for this to be a Pokemon Presents instead of a Direct itself?

 

[fogbadge]

So, how likely is it for this to be a Pokemon Presents instead of a Direct itself?

unlikely

 

[CannonStreak]

unlikely

Why would that be the case?

 

[Perkilator]

Looks like it's that time again:

Japan: Nintendo updates Nintendo Direct page today, generally precedes a presentation https://t.co/fx7UNTeLe1

— My Nintendo News (@MyNintendoNews) June 8, 2023

If I were a betting man used to be during Smash but not anymore then I’d say this is going to be a Partner Showcase, since that was the case last year with no E3.

 

[CannonStreak]

If I were a betting man used to be during Smash but not anymore then I’d say this is going to be a Partner Showcase, since that was the case last year with no E3.

I was thinking the same thing myself, actually.

 

[fogbadge]

unlikely

because Pokémon presents are much less frequent and usually happen on Pokémon day or in the run up to a big release

 

[PeridotGX]

If I were a betting man used to be during Smash but not anymore then I’d say this is going to be a Partner Showcase, since that was the case last year with no E3.

the difference is that we actually need a real direct right now. We know about Pikmin 4, 1-2 Switch 2 (both of which will likely be released by the time of the direct), Scarlet and Violet's DLC, and that's literally it. The rest of the calendar is blank, we don't even know if Zelda is getting DLC. Not giving us a direct is tantamount to saying that nothing is releasing this fall.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Should there have been more echo fighters in Smash? pic.twitter.com/Fs010niyvN

— Master0fHyrule (@Master0fHyrule) June 8, 2023

Yes.

10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]

 

[chocolatejr9]

the difference is that we actually need a real direct right now. We know about Pikmin 4, 1-2 Switch 2 (both of which will likely be released by the time of the direct), Scarlet and Violet's DLC, and that's literally it. The rest of the calendar is blank, we don't even know if Zelda is getting DLC. Not giving us a direct is tantamount to saying that nothing is releasing this fall.

I feel like we said something similar to that last year...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I hope we get a new SRW in this direct, the last game was revealed in one and its been a bit since then.

 

[Perkilator]

I hope we get a new SRW in this direct, the last game was revealed in one and its been a bit since then.

I’m just as eagerly coping hoping for a new Project X Zone game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So I was finally able to put the finishing touches on my SF6 CAC.

It's time to get Rude, baby!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Time for me to get let down again about the lack of a new DK game!

That's my line!

Also it's been so long I don't even expect it.

I expect NOT A ****ING THING. And it's a better life this way.

Big chance I also won't see it live anyway. So that helps.

 

[fogbadge]

what a shame the only way we'd get a revamped ganondorf is if they introduce as a separate character

 

[Sucumbio]

what a shame the only way we'd get a revamped ganondorf is if they introduce as a separate character

Wait the Ganondorf in TotK is not the same one?

 

[fogbadge]

Wait the Ganondorf in TotK is not the same one?

without spoilers: I was meaning how sakurai wouldn’t revamp a character’s moveset

 

[Sucumbio]

without spoilers: I was meaning how sakurai wouldn’t revamp a character’s moveset

Ah, gotcha. I suppose that's true, maybe this go will prove differently!

 

[fogbadge]

Ah, gotcha. I suppose that's true, maybe this go will prove differently!

maybe

 

[Diddy Kong]

what a shame the only way we'd get a revamped ganondorf is if they introduce as a separate character

Way too early for this conclusion. And if he changed even Link earlier on his then latest appearance, there's a big possibility. Ganondorf will be fine with adjustments similar to what Bowser got between Brawl and Smash 4.

Think this is quite a strange statement.

Also speaking of Zelda, now TotK is out for way longer and many finished it already (not me tho), let's speak Zelda newcomers YET AGAIN!!!

Still a huge advocate for Impa here.

Spoilers down:

Spoiler

Warming up to having Master Kohga too as another newcomer having a sort of rival character for Impa, also giving the series another villain. I mean, I doubt the Yiga Clan will leave the Zelda franchise at this point. He's recurring with a chance of coming back in future games maybe even? Having him and Impa both would be great.

 

[fogbadge]

Way too early for this conclusion. And if he changed even Link earlier on his then latest appearance, there's a big possibility. Ganondorf will be fine with adjustments similar to what Bowser got between Brawl and Smash 4.

Think this is quite a strange statement.

There’s a difference between adjusting how a move works and completely changing a moveset into something else. Plus the fact that sakurai wasn’t open to changing dr Mario into a costume says to me that he’s not open to drastically changing a character’s moveset. Sure he’s on occasion given someone a new special but most of the moves remain the same if adjusted. Therefore ganondorf will not change and we’d have to get a new character for the new moves.

 

[DarthEnderX]

There’s a difference between adjusting how a move works and completely changing a moveset into something else. Plus the fact that sakurai wasn’t open to changing dr Mario into a costume says to me that he’s not open to drastically changing a character’s moveset. Sure he’s on occasion given someone a new special but most of the moves remain the same if adjusted. Therefore ganondorf will not change and we’d have to get a new character for the new moves.

His main issue with it seems to be that he's not comfortable removing a playstyle that people already enjoy from the game.

Which is why so many people support Black Shadow being added to the game with Ganondorf's classic moveset, while giving Ganondorf an entirely new moveset.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Since Echoes were spoken of;

(I won't be using Weight Rules for this list, as they're not actually confirmed as a rule. Only rule being used is same core moveset and same core bodyshape)

• Metal Mario(has the original design, not the colors since 4): Mario Echo
• Blood Falcon: Captain Falcon Echo
• Black Shadow: Ganondorf Echo(does not use weapons, but his old Smash attacks)
• Shadow: Sonic Echo
• Dixie Kong: Diddy Kong Echo
• Giga Bowser: Bowser Echo
• Boshi: Yoshi Echo
• Octoling: Inkling Echo

I can't think of any other eacy ones right now that I'd like to see.

 

[Perkilator]

If Glass Joe was a Little Mac Echo, I could see his grounded and aerial attacks both having moderate strength, but Joe himself has pitiful defense and is light as a feather.

 

[fogbadge]

• Dixie Kong: Diddy Kong Echo

hang on, aren't you always saying echoes need to have basically an identical bodyshape? doesn't the lack of a tail kinda ruin it?

 

[chocolatejr9]

hang on, aren't you always saying echoes need to have basically an identical bodyshape? doesn't the lack of a tail kinda ruin it?

No, she has a tail: it's on her head.

ba dum tsh

 

[RileyXY1]

hang on, aren't you always saying echoes need to have basically an identical bodyshape? doesn't the lack of a tail kinda ruin it?

This is pretty much the reason why Isabelle isn't an Echo Fighter of Villager.

 

[MasterCheef]

How likely does it seem we finally get a good Ganondorf based on TotK ?

now ToTK has been out a while would folks be interested in playable Gerudo successor

Spoiler: TotK Spoilers

Riju

?

 

[Perkilator]

What does everyone think of this Chun-Li concept?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

hang on, aren't you always saying echoes need to have basically an identical bodyshape? doesn't the lack of a tail kinda ruin it?

No. It's the same overall core bodyshape. The tail is just an appendage only there to attack, but isn't inherently some key hurtbox piece. It's actually pretty similar to Ridley's Meta Ridley costume, extra pieces that make no difference. What it really does is give her some new animations for moves, not really unlike Ken or Chrom. Even her Up B, the Haircopter, would just be a retool of DK's Up B(which after talking to a user well over 2 years ago, it was noted that it's just a skeleton doing it, which is pretty easy to program in(DK's skeleton is also very similar to Dixie's. Though keep in mind a model being the same core bodyshape is not identical to a skeleton being redone, as they work differently. Skeletons are easy to retool. Models actually have to be redesigned in order to work. Lucina is a good example of this, as she was only an Echo because her model was redone to be shorter to be a costume well before she ever became a quick clone. If it wasn't for that, she wouldn't even be an Echo).

It's even easy enough to note that adding small things like a Tail or even a pair of ears won't affect the model unless it's programmed to be directly do so, as they can just be a hanging piece of cool-looking detail onto it.

Isabelle also isn't an example of this; her entirely bodyshape was a different size, due to having different sized arms and legs overall. If it was just, say, like having her hairdo alone(which is slightly taller), it wouldn't make a difference as long as it didn't affect the hurtbox of her model. Instead, she works on a different fundamental level of design. For another example, imagine how Ness takes out his Bat. It's only active for a certain set of frames. That's how Dixie's hair would work. Being visible, but only active as an attack move alone.

...Oh, right, and Diddy Kong doesn't even use said tail anymore, lol.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

what a shame the only way we'd get a revamped ganondorf is if they introduce as a separate character

Unless the old Ganondorf moves from melee are transferred to Black Shadow as Captain Falcon's Echo. I think 5 of Ganondorf's moves from ultimate will be transferred or altered to the TOTK one. Flame Choke will be unchanged but with gloom aesthetic. His down special is similar to Wizard's Foot but instead of his foot, it's his

Spoiler

Gloom Spear.

All of his Smash Attacks are the same, but instead of his sword, he'll be using his

Spoiler

Gloom Club.

Any other normal moves that should be transferred to TOTK Ganondorf?

 

[MasterCheef]

Unless the old Ganondorf moves from melee are transferred to Black Shadow as Captain Falcon's Echo. I think 5 of Ganondorf's moves from ultimate will be transferred or altered to the TOTK one. Flame Choke will be unchanged but with gloom aesthetic. His down special is similar to Wizard's Foot but instead of his foot, it's his ||Gloom Spear|| All of his Smash Attacks are the same, but instead of his sword, he'll be using his ||Gloom Club||. Any other normal moves that should be transferred to TOTK Ganondorf?=

We will bew getting new Ganondorf and Zelda amiibo. I think an entirely new ganondorf is possible

2 Amiibo Nintendo Does NOT Want You to Know About Yet... (Get Them Early)

Gerudo-King Ganon & Princess Zelda Tears of the Kingdom amiibo Rewards (New Paragliders) released EARLY . Gerudo- king fabric and Princess Zelda Fabrics are ...

www.youtube.com

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A new Ganondorf altogether might be possible, but Falcondorf won't leave. It's his core moveset design, and is tied to him specifically. It's his identity in Smash.

We've gotten enough variants of other characters that work entirely differently(whether through later games or not), so it's not like a second Dorf doesn't work at all. Though it'd be cool to get Pig Ganon too, since it's really only the later games that make him more like a boss than a semi-large character. And not every single game past ALTTP(ignoring using the actual same version of Ganon, as FSA and the Oracle games do, as does ALBW) has him massive either. It's more of a 3D thing, and some aren't.. as big even then? HW isn't that large, then there's the AOC variant of Ganon who is basically just the classic Pig Ganon but with a makeover. Etc.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick, at least, have got to go. Warlock Punch especially.

Yeah it's Ganondorf's "big move" - or at least it was - but Doriyaah fills that role better now. Trading some power for a massive hurtbox, crunchy sound effect and being actually practicle. Give him a magic projectile there. A big, powerful projectile that won't make him a full zoner but will still be stylish. Maybe he can fire it from his new Demon King Bow.

And Volcano Kick is just stupid. It looks stupid, it feels stupid, has no reason to be mapped to a tilt and is only really used when you want to make fun of your opponent which I guess is in character for dorf but I digress.

Regardless I think a revamp would be ideal, but if they have to keep Falcon as a framework I think they can make it work. He's already seen incremental changes over the years, and I think some Falcon moves like his Bair and the stomp actually kind of feel appropriate for him.

 

[fogbadge]

No. It's the same overall core bodyshape. The tail is just an appendage only there to attack, but isn't inherently some key hurtbox piece. It's actually pretty similar to Ridley's Meta Ridley costume, extra pieces that make no difference. What it really does is give her some new animations for moves, not really unlike Ken or Chrom. Even her Up B, the Haircopter, would just be a retool of DK's Up B(which after talking to a user well over 2 years ago, it was noted that it's just a skeleton doing it, which is pretty easy to program in(DK's skeleton is also very similar to Dixie's. Though keep in mind a model being the same core bodyshape is not identical to a skeleton being redone, as they work differently. Skeletons are easy to retool. Models actually have to be redesigned in order to work. Lucina is a good example of this, as she was only an Echo because her model was redone to be shorter to be a costume well before she ever became a quick clone. If it wasn't for that, she wouldn't even be an Echo).

It's even easy enough to note that adding small things like a Tail or even a pair of ears won't affect the model unless it's programmed to be directly do so, as they can just be a hanging piece of cool-looking detail onto it.

Isabelle also isn't an example of this; her entirely bodyshape was a different size, due to having different sized arms and legs overall. If it was just, say, like having her hairdo alone(which is slightly taller), it wouldn't make a difference as long as it didn't affect the hurtbox of her model. Instead, she works on a different fundamental level of design. For another example, imagine how Ness takes out his Bat. It's only active for a certain set of frames. That's how Dixie's hair would work. Being visible, but only active as an attack move alone.

...Oh, right, and Diddy Kong doesn't even use said tail anymore, lol.

well you do seem to be the only person who understand all this so ok

Unless the old Ganondorf moves from melee are transferred to Black Shadow as Captain Falcon's Echo.

maybe spoiler that post

 

[CommanderZaktan]

well you do seem to be the only person who understand all this so ok



maybe spoiler that post

Fixed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

2023 and people still argue Dixie as being an option to be a Echo Fighter. facepalm

She won't be, or she would've been. She's too big a character to bypass. If she could've been made an Echo she would be. But she's not, and unique roster spots weren't much available plus K.Rool also got in already so she missed the boat.

This will only be understood completely whenever she makes the roster I suppose.

 

[AAchillin]

Unless the old Ganondorf moves from melee are transferred to Black Shadow as Captain Falcon's Echo. I think 5 of Ganondorf's moves from ultimate will be transferred or altered to the TOTK one. Flame Choke will be unchanged but with gloom aesthetic. His down special is similar to Wizard's Foot but instead of his foot, it's his

Spoiler

Gloom Spear.

All of his Smash Attacks are the same, but instead of his sword, he'll be using his

Spoiler

Gloom Club.

Any other normal moves that should be transferred to TOTK Ganondorf?

This would be a great move, you kill two birds with one stone — Ganondorf gets a revamped moveset and we finally get more F-Zero representation in the roster.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Thing is? Warlock Punch is not only something that fits with his moves, it fits his battle style way better than a slowly created projectile ever could. Those just leave him super open, and doesn't actually fit his playstyle(which is a brutal but slow beatdown, something he's more than open to doing within the games, quite constantly). Ganon/dorf is a character who can and will body you hard. And Smash actually exemplifies him a lot better than was expected. He does not do "fast projectiles". Even the Blazing Bats is intentionally slow. That's honestly the point behind them. Ganon/dorf is a larger character, and there's barely any fast projectiles(which don't make to put on a heavyweight either. If it's going to be a projectile that can do more than damage, as in pushing people around, it's always a bit slower to balance it correctly. Ridley's only projectile has little force behind it. Same with Bowser and Charizard's, who are all power-based characters. The stronger the projectile is, naturally the slower it is to make it useful).

Volcano Kick on the other hand is nothing like any of his moves or animations, and basically needs to go. Dark Dive is his only special right now that has no reference and is actually pretty bad. Warlock Punch, unsurprisingly, is also referenced in Hyrule Warriors and has become a minor signature move for him as well(same with the Reverse version). They're just a core part of him nowadays.

He also doesn't do projectiles that much anymore, more focusing on brutality at times. He's a physical character quite often, and his moveset is extremely fitting to his current style of characterization. It's just two moves do not work at all. Removing one of his most fitting moves also does not improve him(as noted above, the only kind of projectile that works is a slowly created one, as it's the types he actually consistently has used at any point. Mainly because he borrowed from Aganahim. Incidentally his moves have become his own(and often generally physical) that doesn't copy from others. Smash coincidentally has used and help influence his abilities slowly. Instead of copying an old character, he's now a physical powerhouse in canon, which is also when Brawl was able to use his new animations and concepts already inspired by Smash. It shaped who he is, giving him a real identity.

It would be nice to have a clearly better magical ability, but it's very difficult to pull off with a slower-paced character, without making them significantly worse. He's already using lots of magic in his physical attacks. The best is able to not remove better moves like Warlock Punch and makes it an optional move, like an extra move he can do. Much like a few others have secondary moves, holding down the A button to create his Energy Ball, and then throw it. It's also designed better in that it's very difficult to reflect(outside of normal reflective moves), but more or less can follow the canon well with a "only a Smash attack can deflect it", with a spinning version or moveable to reflect it(and only in the sense of something like Spinning Kong, not just the Screw Attack), making it actually interesting and making unique matchups. Meaning not a lot can actually reflect it outright either.

Otherwise, he needs an actual Reflector. His Forward Air is the best and most obvious example of it, since it's basically a Volleyball Strike~