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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

osby

osby

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Master Hero Sock-on-Rye said:
I think my own roster would look like this:
  1. Mario
  2. Luigi
  3. Peach
  4. Bowser
  5. Rosalina and Luma
  6. Goomba
  7. Donkey Kong
  8. King K. Rool
  9. Link
  10. Zelda
  11. Ganondorf
  12. Samus
  13. Ridley
  14. Raven Beak
  15. Yoshi
  16. Kirby
  17. King Dedede
  18. Fox
  19. Pikachu
  20. Mewtwo
  21. Charizard
  22. Lucario
  23. Greninja
  24. Incineroar
  25. Greavard
  26. Ness
  27. Marth
  28. Ike
  29. Robin
  30. Corrin
  31. Byleth
  32. Alear (His gimmick would be based on Shulk and Joker, which is how the likes of Roy and Lucina can still get in.)
  33. Pit
  34. Wario
  35. Olimar
  36. Villager
  37. Isabelle
  38. Tom Nook
  39. Wii Fit Trainer
  40. Little Mac
  41. King Hippo
  42. Mii Brawler
  43. Mii Swordfighter
  44. Mii Gunner
  45. Shulk
  46. Pyra
  47. Mythra
  48. Elma
  49. Duck Hunt (Because I wanted at least one retro character.)
  50. Inkling
  51. Min Min
  52. Karate Joe (Rhythm Heaven)
  53. Isaac (Golden Sun)
  54. Sonic
  55. Tails
  56. Dr. Eggman
  57. Mega Man
  58. Zero
  59. Pac-Man
  60. Ryu
  61. Ken
  62. Cloud
  63. Sephiroth
  64. Bayonetta
  65. Simon Belmont
  66. Joker
  67. Hero
  68. Banjo and Kazooie
  69. Terry Bogard
  70. Marco Rossi
  71. Steve / Alex
  72. Kazuya
  73. Heihachi
  74. Sora
  75. Q*Bert
Trimmed some fat here, added some first-party characters there, and even snuck in a Sony-owned character. And yes, Q*Bert is owned by Nintendo's gaming archrival.

Give me your thoughts, if you have any to spare.
Click to expand...
I think there are a lot of weird cuts that feel weird when you look at the additions. Like, why Sonic has more characters than Kirby?
 
M

Master Hero Sock-on-Rye

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osby said:
I think there are a lot of weird cuts that feel weird when you look at the additions. Like, why Sonic has more characters than Kirby?
Click to expand...
I will give you credit for saying this. However, my reasoning for the character count was that some of them had overstayed their welcome, while others were long overdue. This is why I cut Captain Falcon out completely, replaced the Piranha Plant with a Goomba, and added two unique Sonic newcomers.
 
PeridotGX

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Perkilator said:
Source Gaming just put out another video about their hyopthetical Smash roster and hooo boy, we got a lot of unpacking to do.
My biggest two issues with these rosters:
  1. Many of the characters are the same ones fans already talk about (which is a shame, because some choices I can totally get behind)
  2. The 3rd party series with more than one character just stick to having Echo Fighters as the second character despite Sephiroth happening
Using these rosters as a basis, what would your own look like? They don't have to be realistic in any way.
Click to expand...
That first roster has some really interesting choices. Magalor over Bandana Dee, Tinkaton and Masked Royal as the new Pokemon reps... I don't know how likely those are, but I respect the boldness. The second roster is a lot more vanilla, which means I don't have a lot to say (and I also pop a blood vessel every time someone suggests Sans as the Toby Fox rep).

As for my prediction roster, I'm gonna repost mine. There are a few things I would tinker with but I mostly stand by it.
Smash6.png
 
Sucumbio

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Master Hero Sock-on-Rye said:
I will give you credit for saying this. However, my reasoning for the character count was that some of them had overstayed their welcome, while others were long overdue. This is why I cut Captain Falcon out completely, replaced the Piranha Plant with a Goomba, and added two unique Sonic newcomers.
Click to expand...
Overstayed their welcome?
 
osby

osby

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Master Hero Sock-on-Rye said:
I will give you credit for saying this. However, my reasoning for the character count was that some of them had overstayed their welcome, while others were long overdue. This is why I cut Captain Falcon out completely, replaced the Piranha Plant with a Goomba, and added two unique Sonic newcomers.
Click to expand...
I just think some of the new additions don't live up to the characters you feel like you had to remove.

Diddy Kong, Meta Knight, Lucas, Chrom, Palutena, and R.O.B. are all popular characters and Goomba, King Hippo, or Raven Beak don't quite feel like satisfactory consolation prizes.

Master Hero Sock-on-Rye said:
Okay, I'll admit it. I wasn't thinking long-term implications with my roster. I was just playing Judgement Day with the overrepped and underrepped franchises.
Click to expand...
I feel like that's the issue. A lot of fan rosters just try to balance numbers instead of looking at what individual characters bring.

As a result, you end up with characters that are cut for no reason and newcomers who are just there to fill a quota.
 
Megadoomer

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Perkilator said:
Source Gaming just put out another video about their hyopthetical Smash roster and hooo boy, we got a lot of unpacking to do.
My biggest two issues with these rosters:
  1. Many of the characters are the same ones fans already talk about (which is a shame, because some choices I can totally get behind)
  2. The 3rd party series with more than one character just stick to having Echo Fighters as the second character despite Sephiroth happening
Using these rosters as a basis, what would your own look like? They don't have to be realistic in any way.
Click to expand...
Assuming it's a limit of 76 or 77 characters...

RETURNING FIRST PARTY SERIES























RETURNING THIRD PARTY SERIES








NEW FIRST PARTY SERIES



NEW THIRD PARTY SERIES



I feel bad about cutting the Wii Fit and Duck Hunt series entirely, but I was running out of room. I couldn't find room to squeeze the Miis in either, but Nintendo's been de-emphasizing them anyway. Sure, the Mii costumes make for cheap/easy DLC, but I'm sure that Nintendo could find other ways to get smaller purchases in there. (maybe giving playable characters new costumes?)

I really wanted to include Dante or Doomguy in there, but they seemed better-suited for DLC. (same thing goes for the likes of 2B or Master Chief) Likewise, it would have been ideal if I could fit an indie character like Shovel Knight or Sans in there, but the third party characters that I picked seemed more important.

TL;DR:



Ideally, I wouldn't cut anyone, but I'm trying to fit it into 77 characters.

EDIT: I figure I'd also list a hypothetical DLC season for this roster, following Ultimate's trend of six characters per pass. Unlike Ultimate, some veterans would be DLC.


 
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Mamboo07

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What a roster of mine would look like?

Well, here I go: (Bold are newcomers, not counting Echo Fighters)
First Party
  1. Mario
  2. Luigi
  3. Peach (Toadsworth takes Toad's place as Neutral Special since Toad's now a fighter)
  4. Bowser
  5. Bowser Jr.
  6. Rosalina/Luma
  7. Waluigi (Assist to Fighter)
  8. Toad
  9. Donkey Kong
  10. Diddy Kong
  11. King K. Rool
  12. Dixie Kong
  13. Cranky Kong
  14. Link
  15. Zelda
  16. Ganondorf
  17. Young Link
  18. Toon Link
  19. Impa
  20. Ganon (Blue Pig)
  21. Samus
  22. Ridley
  23. Raven Beak
  24. Yoshi
  25. Poochy
  26. Kirby
  27. Meta Knight
  28. Dedede
  29. Bandana Dee
  30. Dark Matter
  31. Fox
  32. Falco
  33. Wolf
  34. Krystal
  35. Andross
  36. Pikachu
  37. Mewtwo
  38. Pokemon Trainer
  39. Greninja
  40. Incineroar
  41. Toxtricity (Gen 8)
  42. Meowscarada (Gen 9)
  43. Ness
  44. Lucas
  45. Porky
  46. Marth
  47. Ike
  48. Robin
  49. Byleth
  50. Alear
  51. Pit
  52. Palutena
  53. Hades
  54. Wario
  55. Shake King (From Shake It!)
  56. Olimar
  57. Louie
  58. Villager
  59. Isabelle
  60. Tom Nook
  61. Wii Fit Trainer
  62. Little Mac
  63. King Hippo
  64. Mii Brawler/Swordfighter/Gunner/Mage/Athlete (Mage is magic stuff and Athlete uses sports stuff)
  65. Shulk
  66. Pyra/Mythra
  67. Elma
  68. Inkling
  69. DJ Octavio
  70. Min-Min
  71. Helix
  72. Excitebiker (New Retro rep)
Third Party
  1. Sonic
  2. Dr. Eggman
  3. Snake
  4. Raiden
  5. Mega Man
  6. Zero (Assist to Fighter)
  7. Ryu
  8. Chun-Li
  9. Cloud
  10. Sephiroth
  11. Bayonetta
  12. Father Balder
  13. Simon
  14. Alucard (Assist to Fighter)
  15. Joker
  16. Hero
  17. Slime
  18. Banjo-Kazooie
  19. Gruntilda
  20. Terry
  21. Mai (Covered up and fully clothed due to censorship)
  22. Kazuya
  23. King
  24. Sora
  25. Crash Bandicoot
  26. Lara Croft
  27. Space Invaders
 
PeridotGX

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For as much as we talk about characters, I think the way they handle stages in the next Smash might be even more interesting. In Melee and Brawl, the stagelist was almost completely comprised of new stages, with the handful of returning ones being treated as bonuses. In both version of 4, there was about a 50/50 split of returning and new stages, and in Ultimate the new stages were in the extreme minority (especially before DLC). Do we think they'll go back to the way it was before, or is this how it goes now?
 
fogbadge

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PeridotGX said:
For as much as we talk about characters, I think the way they handle stages in the next Smash might be even more interesting. In Melee and Brawl, the stagelist was almost completely comprised of new stages, with the handful of returning ones being treated as bonuses. In both version of 4, there was about a 50/50 split of returning and new stages, and in Ultimate the new stages were in the extreme minority (especially before DLC). Do we think they'll go back to the way it was before, or is this how it goes now?
Click to expand...
well the focus on older stages was likely a red of the smaller dev time and focus on bringing everyone back. so it’ll depend on how the next time goes
 
DarthEnderX

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I'm not down with any cuts. Everyone is Here! Forever!

If I was forced to do cuts, I would literally cut every series down to one character(excepting echoes), and get as many series represented as possible.

Like, I made this Tight 30 roster back before Ultimate came out. And nowadays, I wouldn't even have Charizard on there and Luigi would be an echo.
1677440486073.png
 
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M

Master Hero Sock-on-Rye

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osby said:
I just think some of the new additions don't live up to the characters you feel like you had to remove.

Diddy Kong, Meta Knight, Lucas, Chrom, Palutena, and R.O.B. are all popular characters and Goomba, King Hippo, or Raven Beak don't quite feel like satisfactory consolation prizes.
Click to expand...
osby said:
I feel like that's the issue. A lot of fan rosters just try to balance numbers instead of looking at what individual characters bring.

As a result, you end up with characters that are cut for no reason and newcomers who are just there to fill a quota.
Click to expand...
I'm terribly sorry for taking the easy route on this. But on the bright side, cutting Captain Falcon and keeping Ganondorf means that the former's basic moveset technically remains intact. Your mileage may vary on this, however.
 
Dan Quixote

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PeridotGX said:
For as much as we talk about characters, I think the way they handle stages in the next Smash might be even more interesting. In Melee and Brawl, the stagelist was almost completely comprised of new stages, with the handful of returning ones being treated as bonuses. In both version of 4, there was about a 50/50 split of returning and new stages, and in Ultimate the new stages were in the extreme minority (especially before DLC). Do we think they'll go back to the way it was before, or is this how it goes now?
Click to expand...
I'd love some more new stages tbh. There are some real beautiful video game locations from the series represented in Smash.
 
M

Master Hero Sock-on-Rye

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DarthEnderX said:
I'm not down with any cuts. Everyone is Here! Forever!

If I was forced to do cuts, I would literally cut every series down to one character(excepting echoes), and get as many series represented as possible.

Like, I made this Tight 30 roster back before Ultimate came out. And nowadays, I wouldn't even have Charizard on there and Luigi would be an echo.
View attachment 368682
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go that far with the cuts. I'd still prefer to give more than one fighter to the really big franchises, like Mario and Pokemon. But you do have a good idea on where to take this.
 
Dan Quixote

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Master Hero Sock-on-Rye said:
I wouldn't go that far with the cuts. I'd still prefer to give more than one fighter to the really big franchises, like Mario and Pokemon. But you do have a good idea on where to take this.
Click to expand...
Yeah my thoughts exactly. As fun as some of them are, I don't need so many deep cut references if it means more gaming universes can be put in the spotlight. Like, I was just talking about stages a minute ago, and could you imagine if some of Mario's stage slots were given to other franchises?
 
Soy_Man

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Can we just list who you're cutting and who you're adding, so I don't have to sift through your list to look for the changes.

Anyways here's who I would cut:

-Dr Mario
-Young Link
-Pichu
-Corrin
-Lucario
-Min Min
-Lucina (The other echo fighters you can take or leave, because they don't really take up much development time)
-Pyra/Mythra
-Kazuya
-Sora
-Little Mac
-Piranha Plant

And here's who I would add:

-A grass-type Pokemon
-Mio
-A Fire Emblem character
-Paper Mario
-Daruk
-Black Shadow
-Raven Beak
-Shadow
-Zero
-Chun Li
-Alucard
-Phoenix Wright
-Monster Hunter
-Demi Fiend
-Master Chief
-Sol Badguy

Any questions?
 
Arcanir

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PeridotGX said:
For as much as we talk about characters, I think the way they handle stages in the next Smash might be even more interesting. In Melee and Brawl, the stagelist was almost completely comprised of new stages, with the handful of returning ones being treated as bonuses. In both version of 4, there was about a 50/50 split of returning and new stages, and in Ultimate the new stages were in the extreme minority (especially before DLC). Do we think they'll go back to the way it was before, or is this how it goes now?
Click to expand...
Ideally we'd have more new stages. While it was a necessary sacrifice for what they wanted to do with Ultimate, it was still disappointing to not have many new stages, particularly since they had options like Sylvalum from XCX, Altar of the Sunne/Moone from SM, or even reusing assets from Rathalos' boss stage for Ancestral Steppe. It's especially the case now that we have multiple new games out across the Switch that could provide many fun new stages from both pre-existing or potential new franchises (like Area Zero from Pokemon SV) on top of the older favorites (like Elysia from Prime 3).
 
toonito

toonito

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RE: Roster

Who i'd Cut:

Jigglypuff
Piranha Plant
Dr. Mario
Young Link
Lucina
Ike
Pichu
Lucas
Roy
Daisy
Chrom
Isabelle
Ken
Richter
Dark Samus

Who I'd Add:

Meowth
Waluigi
Toad
Impa (AOC)
Lyn
Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
Sceptile
Bandana Waddle Dee
Sol Badguy
Paper Mario
Zero
Chun-Li
Crash Bandicoot
Dante
Bomberman
 
Hadokeyblade

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Arcanir said:
Ideally we'd have more new stages. While it was a necessary sacrifice for what they wanted to do with Ultimate, it was still disappointing to not have many new stages, particularly since they had options like Sylvalum from XCX, Altar of the Sunne/Moone from SM, or even reusing assets from Rathalos' boss stage for Ancestral Steppe. It's especially the case now that we have multiple new games out across the Switch that could provide many fun new stages from both pre-existing or potential new franchises (like Area Zero from Pokemon SV) on top of the older favorites (like Elysia from Prime 3).
Click to expand...
it is really stupid that they had the assets for a MOnster hunter stage and did nothing with it.
 
TCT~Phantom

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Perkilator said:
Source Gaming just put out another video about their hyopthetical Smash roster and hooo boy, we got a lot of unpacking to do.
My biggest two issues with these rosters:
  1. Many of the characters are the same ones fans already talk about (which is a shame, because some choices I can totally get behind)
  2. The 3rd party series with more than one character just stick to having Echo Fighters as the second character despite Sephiroth happening
Using these rosters as a basis, what would your own look like? They don't have to be realistic in any way.
Click to expand...
Honestly, Source Gaming's rosters scream wish fulfillment to me. I think the worst offender was the last time they made a roster. Adding five western platforming characters and literally doing a coin flip to decide if Hero or Sora was in the roster made my eyes roll. Not that there is anything wrong with that. You have the freedom to dream about what shape the next Smash might take. But if I am being objective, these seem as realistic of rosters as those 70+ character rosters made for Smash 4 in 2009. There are so many weird choices, like cutting Pokemon Trainer when Charizard is Pokemon's golden boy, adding weird echos like Masked Royal or Noah, making third party cuts that scream purity Nintendo elitist reasons while adding ****ing Master Chief. The second roster isn't much better, it screams trying to fit a square peg into a round hole abusing addition by subtraction. No, cutting Jr. will not give you two new mario characters. No, cutting Robin and Corrin wont give you one new Fire Emblem character of Lyn.

It's fine to have your hopes and dreams for a roster, but if you have unrealistic expectations like this you will inevitably be disappointed.

Also echoing what osby osby said about some cuts in fan rosters.
PeridotGX said:
For as much as we talk about characters, I think the way they handle stages in the next Smash might be even more interesting. In Melee and Brawl, the stagelist was almost completely comprised of new stages, with the handful of returning ones being treated as bonuses. In both version of 4, there was about a 50/50 split of returning and new stages, and in Ultimate the new stages were in the extreme minority (especially before DLC). Do we think they'll go back to the way it was before, or is this how it goes now?
Click to expand...
I think the next game will borrow a lot of Ultimate's legwork for stages since they are right there and will be easier to implement atleast than characters, so I am expecting more old stages returning.

While I am expecting newer stages to be the minority, I think we will get far more new stages than we did in Ultimate. I have said it once, I will say it again: the Wii U and late 3DS era were not exactly goldmines for new content to pull from. I think with the Switch having a bountiful library to pull from, we are more likely to get a bunch of new stages. Here's just a shortlist of stage ideas you could do from games that released on the Switch alone.

  • Lake Lapcat
  • Fossil Falls
  • The Last Resort
  • Horror Land
  • Frozen Fruits
  • Big Paper Peak
  • Buggy Game (WarioWare Get It Together)
  • Tal Tal Mountain
  • A TotK stage
  • Itorash
  • Wild Area
  • Temple of Sinnoh
  • Area Zero
  • Lor Starcutter
  • Alive! Mall
  • Reef Resort
  • Somniel
  • A Cave from Pikmin 4
  • Harv's Island
  • New Horizons Island
  • Great Sword's Hilt
  • Splatsville
  • Octo Canyon
That is just with characters from pre existing series. I could do more for new first party series.

  • Murasame Castle
  • Venus Lighthouse
  • Zone 36
  • Dragaux Stadium
  • Rhythm Heaven Remix
I could go on and do third parties, but at this point the sky is the limit. We have a solid batch of games to pull stages from.
 
LiveStudioAudience

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Really the stage just selections just need to go deeper. Even the era of Smash 4, there were more interesting choices if they'd gone past the constant level 1 focus. There's no reason that series with as varied locations as Kirby and DKC shouldn't have better levels, let alone stuff like Sonic. Its nice that the Switch library has given us more to pull from, but there were options even 10 years ago that simply weren't chosen and it was to Smash's detriment.
 
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CommanderZaktan

CommanderZaktan

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Perkilator said:
Source Gaming just put out another video about their hyopthetical Smash roster and hooo boy, we got a lot of unpacking to do.
My biggest two issues with these rosters:
  1. Many of the characters are the same ones fans already talk about (which is a shame, because some choices I can totally get behind)
  2. The 3rd party series with more than one character just stick to having Echo Fighters as the second character despite Sephiroth happening
Using these rosters as a basis, what would your own look like? They don't have to be realistic in any way.
Click to expand...
What program or site did they use for putting the fighters? It's not the roster maker someone made here
 
Quillion

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Master Hero Sock-on-Rye said:
In that case, how would you remake Sonic's moveset to be balance-friendly? No hard feelings, but I read this with a bit of a sneer in your words.
Click to expand...
Of course I have a sneer about it. All these "moveset revamps" we see everywhere (on YouTube and off) are made by a bunch of mental twelve-year-olds who see Mega Man's moveset and think that it's the pinnacle of moveset design and every character should be like him. In reality, it only really works for fighting game characters at most. I say that as someone who once thought that kind of revamp was a good idea.

All of that said, I could dig changing two moves on Sonic. Forward Air to that meteor kick that everyone wants, Side-B to Boost.

That's all the 64/Melee/Brawl characters should get tbh: 1-3 moves changed per appearance. Maybe conceding 5-6 moves changed for Ganondorf though (only because Canondorfs want it so much).
 
Arcanir

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Quillion said:
Of course I have a sneer about it. All these "moveset revamps" we see everywhere (on YouTube and off) are made by a bunch of mental twelve-year-olds who see Mega Man's moveset and think that it's the pinnacle of moveset design and every character should be like him. In reality, it only really works for fighting game characters at most. I say that as someone who once thought that kind of revamp was a good idea.

All of that said, I could dig changing two moves on Sonic. Forward Air to that meteor kick that everyone wants, Side-B to Boost.

That's all the 64/Melee/Brawl characters should get tbh: 1-3 moves changed per appearance. Maybe conceding 5-6 moves changed for Ganondorf though (only because Canondorfs want it so much).
Click to expand...
I have to be honest, you're being completely condescending. Just because you don't like the idea of moveset revamps doesn't mean that all of them are made by 'mental 12 year olds', and it's dismissive of the people who do actually make an attempt to try and dive into what was intended for the character's vision and bring it to life. If you're going to offer a criticism for this type of content, then give proper criticism, generic insults don't make you look any better than the people you're complaining about.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Master Hero Sock-on-Rye said:
In that case, how would you remake Sonic's moveset to be balance-friendly? No hard feelings, but I read this with a bit of a sneer in your words.
Click to expand...
Quillion said:
All of that said, I could dig changing two moves on Sonic. Forward Air to that meteor kick that everyone wants, Side-B to Boost.
Click to expand...
Ah, so we have the answer to your question, Master.

He wouldn't.
 
Gengar84

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My only complaint with Jonesy is that I personally find him kind of boring aesthetically. If he has a fun and creative moveset then I’d welcome him like anyone else. Fortnite rivals Smash in terms of huge crossover appeal so it would be cool in a way to see one of their characters cross over into another game instead of the reverse as usual.

On another note, I really don’t understand the resentment of people wanting characters to play more like they do in their home series in Smash. I personally really enjoy characters that feel like they just jumped out of their own game into Smash to the extent that it’s possible. I don’t think a character bringing over a lot of canon attacks means they have to be unbalanced as a result. Ideally, they would balance the characters as they would anyone else and buff or nerf certain aspects of the character as needed. I think there’s plenty of room for both simple and more complex fighters in Smash. It’s all dependent on what style suits the particular character better in my opinion.
 
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fogbadge

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
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Jun 29, 2012
Messages
23,605
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Gengar84 said:
My only complaint with Jonesy is that I personally find him kind of boring aesthetically. If he has a fun and creative moveset then I’d welcome him like anyone else.
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not quite anyone

anyway, anyone up for ogrepon as a fighter? no? fine
 
Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
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Joined
Aug 13, 2001
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Cull Hazard
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Irene4
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Gengar84 said:
On another note, I really don’t understand the resentment of people wanting characters to play more like they do in their home series in Smash. I personally really enjoy characters that feel like they just jumped out of their own game into Smash to the extent that it’s possible. I don’t think a character bringing over a lot of canon attacks means they have to be unbalanced as a result. Ideally, they would balance the characters as they would anyone else and buff or nerf certain aspects of the character as needed. I think there’s plenty of room for both simple and more complex fighters in Smash. It’s all dependent on what style suits the particular character better in my opinion.
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Some just don't want it changed up to the point they no longer are the character introduced in Smash.

Which is fine and all. What isn't fine is when it gets into flame wars, etc. :/
 
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