Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[HyperSomari64]

Don't know if its real are not, but someone found a samurai jack stage by datamining

Hey, the Mutliversus thread is right next door.
Or you are joking?

 

[silenthunder]

Hey, the Mutliversus thread is right next door.
Or you are joking?

I made a mistake. I fixed it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm so glad somebody is finally making videos explaining the references in the Smash character trailers. It was always fun for me to recognize these things myself so it's cool to see somebody actually going into details about all of them.

When I think about Hayabusa, I can't help but think about how his reveal would have been the perfect continuation of the Ridley trailer. I can also picture Bill and Lance having some kind of Metroid crossover in their reveal trailer too.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Writing Game Proposals [Work Ethic]

This topic can be relevant to more than just games, so it felt right at home in the Work Ethic category.Game proposals are meant to summarize what your new g...

www.youtube.com

I NEED to see those New Fighters slides!

 

[toonito]

Writing Game Proposals [Work Ethic]

This topic can be relevant to more than just games, so it felt right at home in the Work Ethic category.Game proposals are meant to summarize what your new g...

www.youtube.com

View attachment 363750

I NEED to see those New Fighters slides!

more speculation below! hooray!


Based on the video the Ultimate proposal was completed on Dec 16th 2015 and revised on Nov 1 2016.

Dec 16th was the final presentation for Smash 4 and Cloud's release.

Nov 1 2016 could possibly be when all the DLC characters/info were added.

If Sakurai is working on Smash 6 as his next game using this as a guide then the Smash 6 Project Proposal was completed around Sora's reveal (October 5th 2021). If the revision is due to adding DLC then the proposal should have been revised in September 2022. (just using the previous game as a guide; could be different especially if Sakurai isn't working on anything currently).

The Smash Ultimate proposal was completed a little over 2 years before Ultimate's release (Dec 7, 2018). If this holds then Smash 6 should be released in October 2024.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

 

[toonito]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

IMO RFA > AC > GS > A > AW

 

[Perkilator]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

I think RFA is at least likely to get a character due to the sheer success of the game.

 

[silenthunder]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

I can see Golden Sun getting a rep, and I can see Arms getting a rep. I know Advanced Wars has fans but not enough to be a real contender. Astral chains is in a weird spot. It's not new and its not a classic. And Ring Fit I don't even know. Doesn't seem like something they'd go for again. Maybe they'll replace wii fit.

 

[dream1ng]

more speculation below! hooray!


Based on the video the Ultimate proposal was completed on Dec 16th 2015 and revised on Nov 1 2016.

Dec 16th was the final presentation for Smash 4 and Cloud's release.

Nov 1 2016 could possibly be when all the DLC characters/info were added.

If Sakurai is working on Smash 6 as his next game using this as a guide then the Smash 6 Project Proposal was completed around Sora's reveal (October 5th 2021). If the revision is due to adding DLC then the proposal should have been revised in September 2022. (just using the previous game as a guide; could be different especially if Sakurai isn't working on anything currently).

The Smash Ultimate proposal was completed a little over 2 years before Ultimate's release (Dec 7, 2018). If this holds then Smash 6 should be released in October 2024.

Well, not necessarily. Only if they were going right into the next one would that timeframe be reasonable. But they went right into Ultimate because they were desperate to get the Switch on the market and then front-load the heavy hitters onto it, which includes Smash.

If there was a break in between the two, which seems the case given the Smash team moved on to Tekken, then it casts the beginning of development (the project plan) as a current unknown. It might already exist, it might not.

Even if Smash 6 is Sakurai's next title, that doesn't inherently imply that there was no downtime between Ultimate and 6, or that Sakurai had to formulate 6's proposal plan concurrently with Ultimate's DLC. There isn't the urgency to replace the current platform that there was with the Wii U, and whatever is next may not even be positioned as a full successor to the Switch. Plus, before Ultimate, Sakurai would fully finish one project before moving to the next.

Also, if the proposal was updated to reflect DLC, it wouldn't have been very detailed as to the fighters themselves, given we know Banjo wasn't chosen until 2018, and there's no way Byleth would've been finalized enough to outline in 2016. Plus given when Persona 5 released it's also very unlikely Joker would've been involved yet. Past a plan to have DLC, it's unlikely wave 1 was chosen until 2018, though there could've been some exceptions.

It's more likely it was revised to either reflect cuts or changes that happen during development, or to include an aspect which was decided on later, like the allocated Pokemon spot being filled by Incineroar. Or by the first proposal, they may not have been able to sure up all the third-parties yet, like Snake or Cloud in base.

 

[Garteam]

Writing Game Proposals [Work Ethic]

This topic can be relevant to more than just games, so it felt right at home in the Work Ethic category.Game proposals are meant to summarize what your new g...

www.youtube.com

View attachment 363750

I NEED to see those New Fighters slides!

I think the most interesting thing in that video is the spirit slide, which has Ridley as a spirit boosting Captain Falcon rather than a fighter. This would either mean that Ridley wasn't originally going to be playable in Ultimate or fighter spirits could also be used as support spirits at one point in development. Bandana Waddle Dee is the other spirit, so that could suggest he was on Sakurai's radar to some extent at the beginning of Ultimate's development.

Also, the November 2016 revision was likely just changing the Pokemon placeholder to Incineroar, since we know Sakurai initially saved a spot for a Gen 7 Pokemon and substituted Incineroar in mid-development.

 

[dream1ng]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

Currently I think RFA is likeliest for a character and Astral Chain is likeliest for a sequel, because I think one's already in development.

Having said that I'd be shocked if RFA gets no follow-up after its success, and I still think Nintendo hasn't abandoned ARMS. AW depends on the success of the remake, whenever the hell that comes out, and Golden Sun... well Camelot did update their website with a bunch of old GS assets in tow with a new round of hiring, so maybe it's actually in the cards.

The thing is, if all of these were to get a new game, I think RFA would face a strong contender in Golden Sun. Though with the first-party roster in its current state, if next game gives us the previously normal amount of first-parties, it's not like there wouldn't be room for all of them.

I can see Golden Sun getting a rep, and I can see Arms getting a rep. I know Advanced Wars has fans but not enough to be a real contender. Astral chains is in a weird spot. It's not new and its not a classic. And Ring Fit I don't even know. Doesn't seem like something they'd go for again. Maybe they'll replace wii fit.

Ring Fit was very very very successful. Them being done with it seems pretty unlikely. It's at like 15 million copies. That's better than every Zelda other than one.

That said, they may not be able to recapture its performance going forward since covid really helped that game move units. Regardless, even without that it would be a major success.

 

[Arcanir]

I think the most interesting thing in that video is the spirit slide, which has Ridley as a spirit boosting Captain Falcon rather than a fighter. This would either mean that Ridley wasn't originally going to be playable in Ultimate or fighter spirits could also be used as support spirits at one point in development. Bandana Waddle Dee is the other spirit, so that could suggest he was on Sakurai's radar to some extent at the beginning of Ultimate's development.

I'd assume the latter as generally the roster is pegged in the project plan, so I'd imagine Ridley would've already been decided as a character at the time.

Also, a bit of a fun fact: That Ridley artwork in the image isn't official, that's fanart used on the Metroid Database.

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

Character: Astral Chain>RFA>ARMs>Advance Wars>Golden Sun

New Entry: RFA>Astral Chain>ARMs>Golden Sun>Advance Wars

Astral Chain and RFA I consider at the top of the list for a newcomer, but I'll give a bit of an edge to Astral Chain due to the gameplay providing a few attributes I could see Sakurai going for. In terms of new entries, I'm sure both will get one, but RFA was more successful, and I can see Nintendo trying to capitalize on it similar to how they tried to do with Wii Fit. After them ARMs I feel is dependent on a new entry, but I feel more confident in it getting one over Golden Sun and Advance Wars at the current time, and Golden Sun I feel would follow as IIRC there's internal interest in continuing that series, but I may be wrong on that.

 

[silenthunder]

I can see Golden Sun getting a rep, and I can see Arms getting a rep. I know Advanced Wars has fans but not enough to be a real contender. Astral chains is in a weird spot. It's not new and its not a classic. And Ring Fit I don't even know. Doesn't seem like something they'd go for again. Maybe they'll replace wii fit.

I wasn't thinking about new entries to the series at all just reps

 

[Ivander]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

RFA > Astral Chain > Golden Sun > ARMS > Advance Wars

• I easily see Ring Fit as heavily likely for Smash Bros and will be one of the first prioritized ones.
• I can see Astral Chain as likely, since I think there were implications that Nintendo wanted to support it. Not to mention Astral Chain's cameo in Bayonetta 3.
• Golden Sun really feels like a 50/50. I think Isaac did well in the Ballot and I think Nintendo knows that as well, what with Isaac returning as an Assist and having a Mii Costume. But so far, it feels like they don't see Isaac as a big priority, especially over newer characters. I think when the next Smash is being made, it really depend whether or not they look at Isaac and decide that he's worth it or not.
• I think a 2nd ARMS rep is possible. Whether or not because a 2nd ARMS game happens or maybe they think one of the characters can work as an Echo for Min-Min, which I think Ninjara could work.
• I really see Advance Wars chances as very low, what with the bad luck and problems for Reboot Camp as well as the game not getting any attention in Japan. That's not even looking how successful will Reboot Camp be when it finally releases. When it's release is ready, it really needs to be advertised hard and I see most of that heavy work being put on the fans of the series compared to Nintendo really advertising it. I hope you Advance Wars fans get lucky and that you and the game are successful.

 

[dream1ng]

Isaac, to me, feels like he got treatment in Ultimate to the same vein of what K. Rool got in 4's DLC. Obviously the end product is different, but both felt like they were a result of "we know he's wanted, here's what we can give you in the time being".

The difference, I suppose, is whether, like K. Rool, Isaac will eventually just get in by virtue of being very popular in the fanbase, now that many of the other, more popular first-parties got in, or whether he will actually need a new game to finally clinch things.

I don't think the former is out of the question, but I am still leaning towards the latter. If nothing else, a new game would take him from "ehhh... there's a chance" right up to top contender, since that's inarguably his biggest impediment.

It will be interesting to see what Camelot makes next, since it doesn't look like they'll need to circle back to Tennis or Golf yet.

I wasn't thinking about new entries to the series at all just reps

Yeah but if they can have two cartoonish, furry mammals with birds on their backs, they can have two characters with the motif of fitness. Especially after RFA proved to be such a blockbuster.

But yeah, maybe they will axe WFT. She's not the type of character that normally gets cut, being an original, sole representative. So she certainly wouldn't be first on the block, but if cuts go deep enough, she's not particularly popular and hers is one of the only series that is well and truly likely staying dead.

 

[Idon]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

Out of all of these, I definitely see Astral Chain being first new game and new fighter. Platinum Games at this point has pretty heavy ties with Nintendo, manning one of their new first party IPs on top of Bayonetta which as an exclusive, Nintendo also heavily pushes.
With Bayonetta 3's emphasis on simultaneous control and combat, I imagine would segue very cleanly into an Astral Chain sequel which coincidentally slots in right in the golden zone for Smash characters to be considered. They're also naturally combatants so it's not hard to imagine a transition.

RFA has a bit of an issue in being an oddity character and one that rubs elbows with Wii Fit, but I could easily see both the game and the character getting in regardless.

ARMS hits an absolute dead end. The game has fallen off the face of the earth in popularity and now exists solely as a footnote for the joycons' motion controls. The "left punch, right punch, grab" design of the characters severely limits what they can do with universal mechanics and I don't think we'll see a sequel. In a similar regard, for Smash, Min Min as a character is less about showing off her unique capabilities (of which there are little) and more about ARMS, so another ARMS character would have extreme overlap in moveset style so I don't see another one ever. And thank god because Min Min is one of the worst characters to fight in this game.

AW and Golden Sun are dead, rarely mentioned, and any characters there would be appealing to a stagnant audience. I don't see them happening in any regard now or ever. That might change if Reboot camp ever releases and ALSO sells gangbusters, but quite the big if.

 

[HyperSomari64]

This reminds to why Pikachu (or any other Pokémon) is never brought into Mario Kart Guest Characters Speculation.
Everyone would say for issues with Creatures and Game Freak, but i would say that they can't figure it out how to put monsters like Mewtwo or Groudon in a go-kart or any cartoony vehicle.

 

[fogbadge]

This reminds to why Pikachu (or any other Pokémon) is never brought into Mario Kart Guest Characters Speculation.
Everyone would say for issues with Creatures and Game Freak, but i would say that they can't figure it out how to put monsters like Mewtwo or Groudon in a go-kart or any cartoony vehicle.

have you forgotten this team figured out how to put the likes of wriggler, petey piranha and rob into karts? as if groudon would be a problem

 

[HyperSomari64]

have you forgotten this team figured out how to put the likes of wriggler, petey piranha and rob into karts? as if groudon would be a problem

And there's the real question: How can Pokémon drive vehicles?
While a ball like the PC game sounds weird, it is some kind of taboo on TPC seeing their creations riding cars?

 

[fogbadge]

And there's the real question: How can Pokémon drive vehicles?
While a ball like the PC game sounds weird, it is some kind of taboo on TPC seeing their creations riding cars?

I would guess most Pokémon would use their arms to drive
And no there have been anime episodes with them driving cars.
Also TPC don’t create the Pokemon it’s game freak who does that

 

[dream1ng]

Why are we acting like ****ing Groudon would ever have a chance at being chosen to be the Pokemon on the Mario Kart roster?

The first choice would be Pikachu, and it wouldn't have a problem. Nor would other obvious choices like Lucario, Greninja, Mewtwo, or even Charizard.

What are we on about here? If they want to include bigger Pokemon... they'll put them somewhere in the course. Maybe style karts after them.

I think the reason there haven't been any Pokemon in Mario Kart is because they've not bothered. The only other "guest" stuff comes from EPD. That stuff is by far the easiest to add logistically. We haven't even had Kirby. But if they wanted to put Pokemon in Mario Kart, they probably could come to an agreement with TPC. They put Pokemon in Mario Maker.

And there's the real question: How can Pokémon drive vehicles?
While a ball like the PC game sounds weird, it is some kind of taboo on TPC seeing their creations riding cars?

You're making up problems that almost certainly don't exist.

 

[Oracle Link]

One thing that irks me when it comes to mario kart Speculation/ Already implemented stuff is that Toon Link would make so much more sense in mario Kart Adult Link just feels wrong in the Mario Universe i mean Link a Heavy Weight?! That makes no sense Link in the zelda games is tiny compared to other adults! Heck if we dont count artstyles then Peach should be of comparable height to Link! Yet Link is more Sized like Bowser???
Again the best way of fixing that is to just use toon Link and Toon Zelda/Tetra!

 

[fogbadge]

One thing that irks me when it comes to mario kart Speculation/ Already implemented stuff is that Toon Link would make so much more sense in mario Kart Adult Link just feels wrong in the Mario Universe i mean Link a Heavy Weight?! That makes no sense Link in the zelda games is tiny compared to other adults! Heck if we dont count artstyles then Peach should be of comparable height to Link! Yet Link is more Sized like Bowser???
Again the best way of fixing that is to just use toon Link and Toon Zelda/Tetra!

he's wearing iron boots

joking aside do remember that several weightless characters are classified as heavy so just take it with a pinch of salt

 

[Sucumbio]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

Golden Sun, Astral Chain and Ring Fit stand the best chance of a new character in smash imho though not sure which order in terms of likelihood. ARMS and Advance Wars I feel won't get anything.

 

[Perkilator]

Happy birthday, Miyamoto!

Happy 70th birthday Shigeru Miyamoto!

He has been working at Nintendo for 45 years. pic.twitter.com/cFl2GeBV5I

— Stealth (@Stealth40k) November 16, 2022

 

[toonito]

One thing that irks me when it comes to mario kart Speculation/ Already implemented stuff is that Toon Link would make so much more sense in mario Kart Adult Link just feels wrong in the Mario Universe i mean Link a Heavy Weight?! That makes no sense Link in the zelda games is tiny compared to other adults! Heck if we dont count artstyles then Peach should be of comparable height to Link! Yet Link is more Sized like Bowser???
Again the best way of fixing that is to just use toon Link and Toon Zelda/Tetra!

i wouldn't say wrong because i like Link in mario kart but i agree i always felt Toon Link fit the atmosphere better. i wouldnt mind seeing them get swapped in the future.

then again i wouldnt mind seeing more guest characters in mario kart which is fairly unpopular

 

[TCT~Phantom]

So, honest question.

Which will get a new entry/new Smash character first? Which one will get one last?

Advance Wars
ARMS
Astral Chain
Golden Sun
Ring Fit Adventure

Astral Chain is imo a safe pick to get a sequel. Nintendo bought full rights to the IP from Platinum, which tells me that they have plans for the IP for the future. I don’t know exactly when it would get a sequel, though 2024-2026 would be my guess.

The only other one I feel strongly on is Golden Sun, which to me is a question of when rather than if at this point. It has a strong cult following and if Nintendo was willing to revisit Advance Wars they probably are thinking of Golden Sun. I just do not know exactly when it could come out. It could come out as early as 2024, or much later.

As for characters, I think Officer Howard and Ring Fit Trainee are both safe picks. The next smash odds are will pull heavily from the switch era of Nintendo history and both of those seem like good picks with a strong future. Isaac also is one of the few huge first party requests left at this point. Im not sold on a second ARMS rep for now, maybe if it gets a sequel I’d be convinced. Advance wars…that’s it’s own can of worms at this point.

 

[Oracle Link]

Astral Chain is imo a safe pick to get a sequel. Nintendo bought full rights to the IP from Platinum, which tells me that they have plans for the IP for the future. I don’t know exactly when it would get a sequel, though 2024-2026 would be my guess.

The only other one I feel strongly on is Golden Sun, which to me is a question of when rather than if at this point. It has a strong cult following and if Nintendo was willing to revisit Advance Wars they probably are thinking of Golden Sun. I just do not know exactly when it could come out. It could come out as early as 2024, or much later.

As for characters, I think Officer Howard and Ring Fit Trainee are both safe picks. The next smash odds are will pull heavily from the switch era of Nintendo history and both of those seem like good picks with a strong future. Isaac also is one of the few huge first party requests left at this point. Im not sold on a second ARMS rep for now, maybe if it gets a sequel I’d be convinced. Advance wars…that’s it’s own can of worms at this point.

To be more specific hes one of the few non series Huge first party Requests left because Kirby Alone has BWD, Marx, Magolor
And there are also a ton of Others!

 

[fogbadge]

the question with astral chain i feel is how will they get around the limitations if the next smash engine isn't strong enough to do so. as we know that the system can't handle complexly designed characters functioning together. joker presumably get's around this by aresene not being on screen all the time being, semi transparent a lot of the time and intageable.

then again i feel AC getting in may depend on it getting a sequel between now and then

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

This image jumpscared the heck outta me when I was lazily watching the newest Sakurai video

 

[Ivander]

This reminds to why Pikachu (or any other Pokémon) is never brought into Mario Kart Guest Characters Speculation.
Everyone would say for issues with Creatures and Game Freak, but i would say that they can't figure it out how to put monsters like Mewtwo or Groudon in a go-kart or any cartoony vehicle.

And there's the real question: How can Pokémon drive vehicles?
While a ball like the PC game sounds weird, it is some kind of taboo on TPC seeing their creations riding cars?

First off, I don't think they would have an issue with some Pokemon driving vehicles, what with some of them being bipedal or having hands that can grip a steering wheel. Pokemon like Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, etc, would not have an issue driving a vehicle. Pokemon who don't have normal hands, but are capable of grabbing/griping like Mimikyu wouldn't have an issue either.

Second, why does it have to be them driving exclusively? Why not some of them actually be the "Karts?" There was a Pokemon Season 1 episode where it was a Pokemon race with mounts like Ponyta, Dodrio, Electrode, Rhyhorn, etc. Considering in Mario Kart 8, we had Karts and Bikes that were animal-like, like the Wiggler bike, the Teddy Bear bike, and Link brought the Horse-like Bikes as well, why not have some Pokemon appear as Karts or Bikes? Ponyta/Rapidash, Gogoat, Wooloo, Suicune, Tyrantrum, Solgaleo, etc.

 

[Oracle Link]

That isv Probably what we get if we ever get more Kirby Stuff!
Im Gonna Cry!

Spoiler: What We would get!

Just pls Sakurai ask Kumazaki!
But i just wanted to share one of my Favourite Smash Memes!

 

[toonito]

First off, I don't think they would have an issue with some Pokemon driving vehicles, what with some of them being bipedal or having hands that can grip a steering wheel. Pokemon like Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, etc, would not have an issue driving a vehicle. Pokemon who don't have normal hands, but are capable of grabbing/griping like Mimikyu wouldn't have an issue either.

Second, why does it have to be them driving exclusively? Why not some of them actually be the "Karts?" There was a Pokemon Season 1 episode where it was a Pokemon race with mounts like Ponyta, Dodrio, Electrode, Rhyhorn, etc. Considering in Mario Kart 8, we had Karts and Bikes that were animal-like, like the Wiggler bike, the Teddy Bear bike, and Link brought the Horse-like Bikes as well, why not have some Pokemon appear as Karts or Bikes? Ponyta/Rapidash, Gogoat, Wooloo, Suicune, Tyrantrum, Solgaleo, etc.

you wouldn't need a go-kart

have the Paldean trainer ride either Miraidon or Koraidon.

and voila...Pokemon in Mario Kart 9

Nintendo, check please

 

[osby]

Interesting how Isabelle was apparently in the initial proposal for Ultimate.

There's no way to know how many newcomers were on that but it's still nice to see that she was a high priority for the game.

 

[Luke Starkiller]

One thing about first-party franchises in Smash Bros is that they always get a second rep in a future game.

So for Animal Crossing, there was Villager in the fourth game whilst Ultimate got Isabelle.

It's almost guaranteed that new first party franchises in Smash Bros Ultimate will get a second rep in the sixth game.

 

[Garteam]

One thing about first-party franchises in Smash Bros is that they always get a second rep in a future game.

So for Animal Crossing, there was Villager in the fourth game whilst Ultimate got Isabelle.

It's almost guaranteed that new first party franchises in Smash Bros Ultimate will get a second rep in the sixth game.

I'd agree with you if Pikmin had a second fighter.

That being said, I'd bet the farm on Octoling being playable in some form and I don't think a second ARMS character is necessarily out of the question.

 

[Arcanir]

Thinking about it, I'd be surprised if Isabelle wasn't a top priority for Ultimate. Even at the time the project plan was drafted she was a clear rising star among Nintendo's cast and was all over advertising both in and out of Animal Crossing. I'd imagine as soon as they knew they were doing another Smash game she was at the top of the list alongside Inklings.

 

[dream1ng]

One thing about first-party franchises in Smash Bros is that they always get a second rep in a future game.

So for Animal Crossing, there was Villager in the fourth game whilst Ultimate got Isabelle.

It's almost guaranteed that new first party franchises in Smash Bros Ultimate will get a second rep in the sixth game.

Unless they... y'know... don't.

 

[Ivander]

One thing about first-party franchises in Smash Bros is that they always get a second rep in a future game.

looks at Yoshi, Wario, F-Zero and Punch Out!

I'd agree with you if Pikmin had a second fighter.

I mean, Alph is pretty nice to see even if he is a costume for the most part. And he was planned to be an Echo of Olimar, so Pikmin at least almost has a 2nd character.