Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think anyone could have been on the ballot except characters who didn't exist yet by the time it closed. Which was when? I don't remember lol. Before Smash 4 sometime.

Well, yeah. If they exist, people will vote for them. The thing is, as I've said before, people look too far into the Smash Bubble when trying to figure out how the ballot was like.

More accurately, impossible ones like anime characters were dismissed, but were still absolutely voted for. The only lack of votes were in the end characters who nobody knew of. Some might just be so obscure nobody voted for more than once, so sure, some probably didn't have any votes in that front. But the rest? There's no real good reason to believe they didn't get something. It's not like it was about "who do you think is likely", but "who do you want", which does include people like Master Chief, etc. Of course he got votes. Smash Bros. is a big gaming crossover, and that was very clear before the ballot too. This is pretty obvious that people view it that way when you look at the fanhacks, which ignore any Nintendo connection or don't care about "rules" in general. Clearly these people exist to begin with. Casual fanbases and all.

 

[Troykv]

Can I change the subject? Anybody want any newcomers that don't get talked about? Also I read a japanese news article and people in the comments mentioned Felyne (from Monster Hunter), Icey (Icey), and Adol Christian (Ys). ever heard of 'em

Well, my most wanted character is a pipe dream that is probably gonna become remotively possible as some mod once someone datamines FE Engage to get the only publically available HD Model of her that will probably exist in a long while.

Besides the obvious one, I think the only pick I'm very into that isn't really talked about is Adeleine.

I find a bit sad that my tastes are so basic that I don't really have pipe dreams besides characters that managed to get into my mind, some how.

Oh I remember something else... Fate characters I suppose?. Though I'm not AS invested in the idea as I'm with Miccy.

 

[Garteam]

I'm too lazy to find the interview, but I remember Sakurai saying that, prior to Hero's inclusion, there was a lot of demand for a Dragon Quest character in Smash but he didn't think that was doable. Sakurai might have been talking about requests generally, but he did say that the ballot influenced him to make Cloud the Final Fantasy rep and to add a Castlevania rep to Ultimate. Likewise, the fact that Sakurai was gunning for Hero as his first choice but was willing to settle for Slime when going into negotiations with Square-Enix really makes me think that getting a Dragon Quest character was the primary concern. Therefore, I think it's fair to say that no individual Dragon Quest character blew up the ballot, the total sum of requests for various Dragon Quest characters was enough to encourage Sakurai to add Hero to Ultimate.

 

[silenthunder]

I'm fortunate enough to get Mischief Makers representation in fan games and modded in smash

 

[Chuderz]

I like to call attention to what I feel like are Sakurai and team's oversights when it comes to design so I'd just like to add this to that pile.

Why are Terry's Go! attacks actionable with both an A (jab) input and a B (special) input? I know that Sakurai and team think it makes the attacks easy to activate with 2 different functioning button inputs for the final input but no not really at all. Instead all it ends up doing is making misinputs between Terry's power-upped command-input Special variants and these Go! attacks more frequent which adds to the stigma of fighting game characters and command inputs in Smash. Which is all the more tragic because Terry's are piss easy and I'd like the Smash community to potentially embrace the idea of command inputs in the game using Terry as a template. It would have been better to lock Terry's power-upped Special variants to the Special button (duh) and the Go! attacks to the A button to differentiate them and thus helping the game understand which one the players wants to use much better. I'm sorry but I feel like this is objectively the correct design choice and thus a massive Sakurai miss.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's try something new.

WITHOUT REGARDS TO SMASH AND REPRESENTATION...

How successful you say each franchise has been since Ultimate's base game? To give you a couple of examples...

Metroid: Metroid has continued the momentum started by Samus Returns and the Prime 4 reveal and has gained a new landmark title in Metroid Dread. Metroid Dread is now the best selling Metroid game. Prime 4 is still on the horizon. The franchise is more successful than it was previously.

Star Fox: Star Fox has gotten references in new titles and Star Fox 2 now has easy access due to being added to SNES online. Star Fox has had a major tie in with Star Link and was marketed heavily for the game. The franchise has not had a new game since continuing the dry spell only interrupted by Star Fox Zero.

I'd like to do more, but I want to see what you guys think. I also don't have a ton of time.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as my dark horse picks beyond the old school 8 and 16 bit figures (Sparkster, Nathan Spencer, Streets of Rage cast) I think recent indie titles have provided a lot characters I'd love to see; Dorothy from Steamworld Dig 2, Ori from the games of the same name, Team Snakemouth from Bug Fables, the Knight from Hollow Knight, and Jin from Monster World.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Unrelated to the current conversations, I did look into the whole Tetra Echo thing, and while they share the same bodyshape, they also... are nothing alike. Tetra's only fought properly once, in a spin-off, and she uses a pistol and a rapier. Basically? Yes, she could use Toon Link as a base, but her animations nor attacks really make any sense. She's cool as a Mod, but that's it.

Otherwise, my only criticism of the roster is how weirdly the character spots are, but that can be taken as irrelevant anyway. I mean, there's no way Waluigi and Dr. Mario would be after Wario in that case, and while Yoshi was poorly placed in Smash 4 at best, it only split up the Mario characters between Classic and Modern ones, but also happens to keep them in an order of appearance. Wario's his own franchise through and through, whereas Yoshi is basically still Super Mario in Smash most of the time, as the content is rarely not found in a Super Mario game, so it's a little silly, but... nothing really bad.

All the characters looked neat otherwise.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Besides the obvious one, I think the only pick I'm very into that isn't really talked about is Adeleine.

Why don't people refer to Adeleine as a contender much, anyway? To my knowledge, she's fairly popular within her franchise, and could very well translate into a unique fighter. Is there a reason for the lack of mention, beyond preferences? Because I can understand why people may not want her in as the first Kirby newcomer in 14+ years; technically speaking, having it be a humanoid may not leave a great taste in people's mouths. But she should at least have been acknowledged in Smash by now, and the audacity of her not even getting that bare minimum in the entire run is pretty awful.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Ryu and Simon are in the Mega Man category, not the Mario/Sonic category.

Classic/Mainline Mega Man games could be considered Mascot platformers.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Adeleine's perception struggles a bit in relevance as Marx, Magalor, and even old favorites like the Animal Friends (Rick, Kine, Coo) often get seen as being more interesting than she does; all that on top of BWD becoming the obvious favorite for the franchise.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Why don't people refer to Adeleine as a contender much, anyway? To my knowledge, she's fairly popular within her franchise, and could very well translate into a unique fighter. Is there a reason for the lack of mention, beyond preferences? Because I can understand why people may not want her in as the first Kirby newcomer in 14+ years; technically speaking, having it be a humanoid may not leave a great taste in people's mouths. But she should at least have been acknowledged in Smash by now, and the audacity of her not even getting that bare minimum in the entire run is pretty awful.

Do you want the blunt version or the nice version?

I think I can answer the question, but I don't want to push anyone's buttons.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Do you want the blunt version or the nice version?

I think I can answer the question, but I don't want to push anyone's buttons.

Whatever you feel is right will work. I already got a bad feeling about this.

 

[silenthunder]

As far as my dark horse picks beyond the old school 8 and 16 bit figures (Sparkster, Nathan Spencer, Streets of Rage cast) I think recent indie titles have provided a lot characters I'd love to see; Dorothy from Steamworld Dig 2, Ori from the games of the same name, Team Snakemouth from Bug Fables, the Knight from Hollow Knight, and Jin from Monster World.

Shantae would be a cool indie game for smash. She did win my poll.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Whatever you feel is right will work. I already got a bad feeling about this.

Adeleine is a popular character in the Kirby fandom. But she has virtually no franchise importance, or at least no more importance than characters, like Taranza, Daroach or Dark Meta Knight.

Smash requests typically go in an "order." Think of K. Rool not being the top DK request until we got Diddy, or Dixie not being a super popular request until we got K. Rool. To use another franchise, all Metroid requests paled in comparison to Ridley. He was the one the "order" dictated should be next.

Adeleine is seen as low on this totem poll. Bandana Waddle Dee is crowned as the next step in the order as he's the most prominent and marketed main chatacter. Magalor seems to be after him.

If Adeleine wants to move up the totem poll and become next in the "order," she'd need a few things. Modern appearances, plot important roles, and consistency. That's how Bandana Waddle Dee became as popular as he is. He was always popular, but his consistently important roles made him the popularity juggernaut he is today.

 

[Ivander]

Let's try something new.

WITHOUT REGARDS TO SMASH AND REPRESENTATION...

How successful you say each franchise has been since Ultimate's base game? To give you a couple of examples...

Metroid: Metroid has continued the momentum started by Samus Returns and the Prime 4 reveal and has gained a new landmark title in Metroid Dread. Metroid Dread is now the best selling Metroid game. Prime 4 is still on the horizon. The franchise is more successful than it was previously.

Star Fox: Star Fox has gotten references in new titles and Star Fox 2 now has easy access due to being added to SNES online. Star Fox has had a major tie in with Star Link and was marketed heavily for the game. The franchise has not had a new game since continuing the dry spell only interrupted by Star Fox Zero.

I'd like to do more, but I want to see what you guys think. I also don't have a ton of time.

For first party games:

• Has a new game in development:
• No new title announced yet, but had a recent title that was successful: /if you count Ring Fit
• No recent new title for a while, but last release wasn't too long ago:
• Last release was before Wii U release:
• Has finished it's story. Don't know if another title will happen:
• Retro:

I think for the most part, alot of the first parties in Smash have been successful in getting future releases. There's the rumors of Donkey Kong having a new game in development. Star Fox hasn't had alot of luck, but is the soft spot of alot of higher-ups, so I think Star Fox's future is decently safe. ARMS did do a decent job with sales, but whether it gets a new game or not is another story. And who can say about Kid Icarus, F-Zero and Punch Out!, since they haven't gotten a new title for a long time now.
But for the most part, alot of Nintendo's franchises in Smash are still on-going or recently had a new title past Ultimate's release date.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Adeleine is a popular character in the Kirby fandom. But she has virtually no franchise importance, or at least no more importance than characters, like Taranza, Daroach or Dark Meta Knight.

Smash requests typically go in an "order." Think of K. Rool not being the top DK request until we got Diddy, or Dixie not being a super popular request until we got K. Rool. To use another franchise, all Metroid requests paled in comparison to Ridley. He was the one the "order" dictated should be next.

Adeleine is seen as low on this totem poll. Bandana Waddle Dee is crowned as the next step in the order as he's the most prominent and marketed main chatacter. Magalor seems to be after him.

If Adeleine wants to move up the totem poll and become next in the "order," she'd need a few things. Modern appearances, plot important roles, and consistency. That's how Bandana Waddle Dee became as popular as he is. He was always popular, but his consistently important roles made him the popularity juggernaut he is today.

I'll... reluctantly acknowledge this, although I don't know how much we should be using the priority totem comparison here. Bandana Dee's had more roles than she has, you're right about that, but the consistency of the roles he's gotten is a bit all over the place. In the mainline 3DS games in particular, he took a role Adeleine had in 64, and one he should not have been given. And while he had a lot of appearances, his presence within has historically been on the low side. I realize Forgotten Land started to incorporate him into the mix more, and that's better for his attendance score. But I do have some major complaints about the cast they chose in that game, that tie into the priority totem you've proposed.

Also, you make this comparison as if Adeleine shouldn't be used in any capacity because of it. I already admitted that as a fighter, she'd be a strange choice at this point in time; but what's stopping her from getting a reference? Something as simple as in assist or as notable as a cameo would be perfectly understandable, yet in the entire span of Smash, she's gotten absolutely nothing.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'll... reluctantly acknowledge this, although I don't know how much we should be using the priority totem comparison here. Bandana Dee's had more roles than she has, you're right about that, but the consistency of the roles he's gotten is a bit all over the place. In the mainline 3DS games in particular, he took a role Adeleine had in 64, and one he should not have been given. And while he had a lot of appearances, his presence within has historically been on the low side. I realize Forgotten Land started to incorporate him into the mix more, and that's better for his attendance score. But I do have some major complaints about the cast they chose in that game, that tie into the priority totem you've proposed.

Also, you make this comparison as if Adeleine shouldn't be used in any capacity because of it. I already admitted that as a fighter, she'd be a strange choice at this point in time; but what's stopping her from getting a reference? Something as simple as in assist or as notable as a cameo would be perfectly understandable, yet in the entire span of Smash, she's gotten absolutely nothing.

You misunderstand me. I never meant to say she shouldn't appear at all. I was just answering the main question, "why dont more people see her as a contender?"

Frankly she should appear more. I think Kirby would benefit more from a more consistent cast. The fandom latching onto Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Waddle Dee show how much that consistancy is valued.

Although if I could have any Kirby character appear more, itd be Gooey.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

You misunderstand me. I never meant to say she shouldn't appear at all. I was just answering the main question, "why dont more people see her as a contender?"

Frankly she should appear more. I think Kirby would benefit more from a more consistent cast. The fandom latching onto Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Waddle Dee show how much that consistancy is valued.

Although if I could have any Kirby character appear more, itd be Gooey.

My bad, I guess I should've made myself more clear.

I will admit, unlike most, I do consider an assist enough of an appearance to make a difference. I feel like Adeleine is a good contender for this role, hence why I have a major disliking for a lot of the assists they chose in Ultimate, that were either way too out-there, or characters that were better suited for being playable.

But sure, I'll admit that Gooey needs attention, too. Especially as one of the only Kirby characters who outshone Meta Knight in the Smash 2 poll, that never became playable.

 

[Garteam]

Unrelated to the current conversations, I did look into the whole Tetra Echo thing, and while they share the same bodyshape, they also... are nothing alike. Tetra's only fought properly once, in a spin-off, and she uses a pistol and a rapier. Basically? Yes, she could use Toon Link as a base, but her animations nor attacks really make any sense. She's cool as a Mod, but that's it.

Otherwise, my only criticism of the roster is how weirdly the character spots are, but that can be taken as irrelevant anyway. I mean, there's no way Waluigi and Dr. Mario would be after Wario in that case, and while Yoshi was poorly placed in Smash 4 at best, it only split up the Mario characters between Classic and Modern ones, but also happens to keep them in an order of appearance. Wario's his own franchise through and through, whereas Yoshi is basically still Super Mario in Smash most of the time, as the content is rarely not found in a Super Mario game, so it's a little silly, but... nothing really bad.

All the characters looked neat otherwise.

You could make the argument that Samus and Dark Samus have vastly different canonical skill sets that would stop them from ever being echoes, but that didn't stop Dark Samus from being added as an echo. If anything, Dark Samus taking on Samus' traits is much more of a departure from Metroid's canon than Tetra taking on Toon Link's moveset because Dark Samus has canonically been depicted fighting with a different style than what is used in Smash while Tetra is more or less a blank slate.

Additionally, I think the criticism that Tetra doesn't actually do anything (outside of Hyrule Warriors) that could be used in a Smash moveset applies to just about every Zelda character out there. Zelda hadn't fought outside of firing light arrows at Ganon in Ocarina of Time, but that didn't stop her from joining Melee. Likewise, Sheik just teleports, jobs to a shadow, and teaches Link various songs on her harp, but she also got into Melee. Other than riding a horse in Ocarina and blocking a couple of blows from/jobbing to Ghirahim in Skyward Sword, Impa is a walking exposition dump. Skull Kid steals a horse, turns Link into a Deku scrub, and makes the moon crash into the earth, with Majora being the actual entity fought. However, these beforementioned characters were/are all seen as viable Smash characters because they all have backstories that would give them some combat ability and only Link and the bad guys do much on-screen fighting in Zelda. I don't really see how Tetra is a departure from this. She's a pirate captain with a rough-and-tumble, no-nonsense personality that carries a sheathed knife on her hip. It's not a massive break in her character to imagine her fighting with a sword and shield, especially in a world where that's the norm.

In terms of the Mario row, I don't really love it either, but I can't really think of a better way to arrange it. I initially tried putting Yoshi and Wario at the back and moving Dr. Mario up with the other Mario protagonists, but I really didn't like how Dr. Mario was wedged between a bunch of Mario mainstays, how Yoshi was behind Piranha Plant, or how Waluigi came before Wario and was separated from him by two characters. From there, I tried moving Dr. Mario to the first spot in the roster to match Melee, moved Yoshi to Dr. Mario's old spot to keep him with Mario's other protagonists while keeping the princesses together, and moved Wario in front of Waluigi. However, I really didn't like that Mario wasn't the first spot in the roster, so I moved Dr. Mario to the end with Piranha Plant as the two more obscure Mario reps.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Let's try something new.

WITHOUT REGARDS TO SMASH AND REPRESENTATION...

How successful you say each franchise has been since Ultimate's base game? To give you a couple of examples...

Metroid: Metroid has continued the momentum started by Samus Returns and the Prime 4 reveal and has gained a new landmark title in Metroid Dread. Metroid Dread is now the best selling Metroid game. Prime 4 is still on the horizon. The franchise is more successful than it was previously.

Star Fox: Star Fox has gotten references in new titles and Star Fox 2 now has easy access due to being added to SNES online. Star Fox has had a major tie in with Star Link and was marketed heavily for the game. The franchise has not had a new game since continuing the dry spell only interrupted by Star Fox Zero.

I'd like to do more, but I want to see what you guys think. I also don't have a ton of time.

I will do the DLC ones real quick.
: Persona has been eating well enough. Persona 4 Golden came to PC and did very well. Royal came out and honestly is the definitive way to play Persona 5. Persona 5, Persona 4, and Persona 3 Portable also are all coming to Switch and Xbox now, which is also great.
: DQXI seems to have been the biggest game that DQ has had in the west, and I assume it did well in Japan. DQXII has been announced and the series has had a healthy dose of spin offs.
: Despite nothing new coming his way, I would still say the past few years have been a net positive for Banjo given how low the bar has been. A healthy dose of new merch, Rare Replay is on Game pass, and Banjo Kazooie is on the N64 expansion pass. Given the dire straits Banjo had been in for a while, this was a good past couple of years.
: I'm gonna lump KOF in here since Terry is there. There is a new Fatal Fury/Gaoru game in the works though! KOF XV did well compared to past games, which is nice.
: ARMS has not gotten anything since its initial wave of post launch content.
: Minecraft became the biggest game of all time. It also has had a healthy slew of updates over the years and a few spin offs release.
: Tekken 8 was announced for the PS5, Xbox Series X, and PC. Release date unknown at the time but it is clear more Tekken is coming.
: KH3 came out and did well, as did its DLC in Re:Mind. KH got ports to the PC and Switch, though I would dodge those since they are Cloud ports. KH Melody of Memory came out as well. KH 4 is also in development, though there is no release date.

I have awakened from my hibernation with another roster for a hypothetical Smash Ultimate Deluxe. Characters with red borders are base game newcomers, characters with green borders are echoes, and characters with yellow borders are DLC fighters. The unmarked Pokemon is a placeholder for a Gen 9 (or 10) Pokemon, while the unmarked newcomers are placeholders for whatever is being promoted at that time.
View attachment 363042

Spoiler

Pretty solid roster at the end of the day.

One thing I am a little iffy on is the idea of X and Zero as a swapping character. This is not for the reason of not wanting them. I think both are super cool characters and I would love for either of them to be in Smash. I just feel that them swapping would feel a little weird? I'd rather see just an X moveset or just a Zero moveset personally. I think that it would make more sense for them to be separate, since they are far more often apart then they are together. I just feel if we were to get a character from the X series (which imo is a decent take post Sephiroth), I think it would be one or the other if that makes sense.

The only other miss imo is the lack of Astral Chain on the roster. I think with Nintendo purchasing full rights to the IP from Platinum, it is clear they have plans in store for the franchise. It also is one of the big franchises from the Switch era that are not in Smash. It did not sell gangbusters, but it did sell pretty well at the end of the day. I think with its solid sales and Nintendo buying the series it would deserve a look, but the fact you would get a super unique character feels like gravy to me.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You could make the argument that Samus and Dark Samus have vastly different canonical skill sets that would stop them from ever being echoes, but that didn't stop Dark Samus from being added as an echo. If anything, Dark Samus taking on Samus' traits is much more of a departure from Metroid's canon than Tetra taking on Toon Link's moveset because Dark Samus has canonically been depicted fighting with a different style than what is used in Smash while Tetra is more or less a blank slate.

I don't buy this one Cheif.

Dark Samus has done some of the thing Samus does in her moveset. Yeah Dark Samus has more unique abilities, but Dark Samus doing those things isn't jarring or strange.

Tetra being a blank slate does not mean we can magically put Toon Link's moveset on her. Dark Samus at least had SOME logic to it.

 

[silenthunder]

Khameleon could conically use sheiks moveset

 

[Perkilator]

Aw hell naw what is this

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Sucumbio]

Aw hell naw what is this

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It's salt city baby!

This is what Steve is doing to people LOL pic.twitter.com/qlBEyaWEhm

— LG | Maister (@Maister_SSB) November 1, 2022

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler: I do like to mark large messages, heh

 

[silenthunder]

Don't know why they'd ban all dlc. Leo's Byleth is hype and he can use every character. Leo always won before Steve and Kazuya and even after.

 

[SPEN18]

COMPLETELY disagree about Hero and Steve. Not even sure what argument you can make about it being totally believable that Steve was high on the ballot. It's one of the most popular games in the world.

As for Hero, remember that Nintendo is able to see the results of the Ballot by region, and that Dragon Quest is one of the most popular franchises in Japan. And while I'm sure Hero probably wasn't that high overall, I bet you he was top 10, if not top 5, in Japan. The same could also be possible for Terry and Latin America. If Nintendo wanted to make an inclusion target to appeal to that region, the Ballot likely told them that Terry was the guy to add.

And while Sephiroth was probably not super high on the ballot himself, I'm betting Cloud's position on the Ballot directly influenced Sephiroth's inclusion.

And I just disagree with you that Ridley and Simon weren't a result of the Ballot.

Some of these points I already addressed in other posts, but I don't expect you to read all of that if you didn't want to. Sorry if anything is just being straight-up restated.

I acknowledged that DQ could have been pulled from the ballot by combining votes for DQ characters AND looking at the JP-only results. I still have trouble thinking it was at or near the absolute top of those results, though. Like, DQ doesn't even appear anywhere on the JP exit poll results; granted, those JP exit poll results are really tiny, but it at least shows my stance is not completely unreasonable. You can easily see several Kirby characters, several vets, things like Ashley or Arle that are well-known to be big JP requests, and even meme picks like Magnemite potentially having more votes than DQ.

With Steve, he may have even been negotiated as far back as 2014, which would have been before the ballot.

I realize Ridley and Simon are the most controversial claims, but at least with Ridley: it's just practicality issues being resolved that got him in; they already knew he was wanted long before the ballot and he is one of the rare characters who got their popularity officially acknowledged. Ridley didn't need the ballot to tell them just how popular he was; if anything, the ballot could have potentially hurt him if his boss status had dwarfed his perceived popularity relative to other choices like K. Rool or Isaac (to be clear, I don't think the ballot actually did hurt Ridley, but it had the potential to if his fans didn't show up in spite of his boss status).

--

And remember (except for Ridley and Simon), it's not "these characters did well but not as well within the vocal hardcore" but rather "these characters don't appear like anywhere at all on most of these polls or in any of the circa 2015 Smash discussions on the net." And while it's easy to believe casuals would vote differently, and it's easy to believe that the polls aren't going to grasp the full results, it's tough to explain such a massive rift. The bulk of the argument for Steve, Terry, etc. being pulled from the ballot is, at this point, simply the speculation that "they're popular franchises in general so yeah they probably got some votes" and the assumption that a massive silent majority must have voted for them.

It's easy to look at who got in and with full retrospect try to fit them in with the narrative of Nintendo "listening to the fans" or the ballot specifically. I think there's a lot of revisionism underlying all of that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Classic/Mainline Mega Man games could be considered Mascot platformers.

It's not. Contrary to the name, mascot platformer doesn't just mean any game with platforming and the company mascot.

Sakurai might have been talking about requests generally, but he did say that the ballot influenced him to make Cloud the Final Fantasy rep and to add a Castlevania rep to Ultimate.

Which is an obvious lie. Because Cloud came out a month after the Ballot, and we know damn well characters take longer to make than that.

Frankly she should appear more. I think Kirby would benefit more from a more consistent cast. The fandom latching onto Dedede, Meta Knight and Bandana Waddle Dee show how much that consistancy is valued.

Although if I could have any Kirby character appear more, itd be Gooey.

You musta loved Star Allies.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I thought it wasn't the ballot so much as previous polls and such made it clear that FF was massively wanted, which helped him choose Cloud? At least Bayonetta could've been in the proof of concept stages by that point, and just barely got enough votes to further validate the choice. Cloud isn't... the same thing. Yeah, maybe it was misremembered or he probably misstated what he meant.

"Sakurai: This isn’t an exact number, but among the requests for a Final Fantasy character to appear in Smash, around ¼ to ⅓ of the requests we got from fans were for Cloud. [TN1] I really wanted to answer the desires of those fans, and even though I thought it would be impossible, I reached out anyway, just to try."

He never said ballot. Just requests in general. Same point overall, just a different thing he got the information from.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

It's not. Contrary to the name, mascot platformer doesn't just mean any game with platforming and the company mascot.

Which is an obvious lie. Because Cloud came out a month after the Ballot, and we know damn well characters take longer to make than that.

You musta loved Star Allies.

Cloud is still the most popular Final Fantasy character of all time by a long shot, to think the people who did vote for a FF character didn't put the most votes for him is absurd

 

[Perkilator]

Cloud is still the most popular Final Fantasy character of all time by a long shot, to think the people who did vote for a FF character didn't put the most votes for him is absurd

Plus, the period between when the ballot opened and when it closed (a whopping six months) is more than enough time to determine that plenty of people voted for Cloud in about two weeks.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Plus, the period between when the ballot opened and when it closed (a whopping six months) is more than enough time to determine that plenty of people voted for Cloud in about two weeks.

Yeah, this is worth pointing out. Cloud wasn't directly cited from the ballot, but he actually can be from it. That's easily enough time. He also used other assets to speed it up(like many DLC characters).

...Was there a ballot citing at any point? Cause the timeline does match up. It is noted he got tons of requests in general, though only Bayonetta before Ultimate was cited as being highly voted on the ballot(though it was never said she was added due to the ballot any point. That's something people assumed. It may or may not be wrong, as there's at least reasons of how it could go either way. For instance, the reason she was realizable? She had enough proof of concept done that she was easy to license immediately), but I don't remember if Cloud was said to be from it or not specifically.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I consider Doom Slayer to be more of the "Space Marine" archetype.

He is. I'm just saying that Master Chief isn't the only one that would fit the kind of matchups that was mentioned.

Though, I don't recall Cloud ever being some kind of dream match up for Master Chief anyway. If anything, there's been more of a case for Samus. Still, even in then, I prefer Doom Slayer vs Samus anyway.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Cloud is still the most popular Final Fantasy character of all time by a long shot, to think the people who did vote for a FF character didn't put the most votes for him is absurd

I didn't say Cloud wasn't the most popular FF character on the Ballot.

I'm saying the idea that the Ballot influenced Sakurai to make him the FF rep is complete nonsense. Because, again, Cloud came out a month after the Ballot. It takes WAY LONGER THAN A MONTH to make a Smash character. Smash characters are decided YEARS in advance to their actual inclusion. Cloud would have been practically FINISHED by the time the Ballot ended.

Yeah, this is worth pointing out. Cloud wasn't directly cited from the ballot, but he actually can be from it. That's easily enough time.

No. He couldn't. They've straight-up said that characters are decided upon at least 2 years before they're actually released due to how long licensing negotiations takes.

NOBODY in Smash 4 was decided upon because of the Ballot. They were all in development before the Ballot even happened. The Ballot was for Ultimate. Period.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I didn't say Cloud wasn't the most popular FF character on the Ballot.

I'm saying the idea that the Ballot influenced Sakurai to make him the FF rep is complete nonsense. Because, again, Cloud came out a month after the Ballot. It takes WAY LONGER THAN A MONTH to make a Smash character. Smash characters are decided YEARS in advance to their actual inclusion. Cloud would have been practically FINISHED by the time the Ballot ended.

No. He couldn't. They've straight-up said that characters are decided upon at least 2 years before they're actually released due to how long licensing negotiations takes.

NOBODY in Smash 4 was decided upon because of the Ballot. They were all in development before the Ballot even happened. The Ballot was for Ultimate. Period.

Can you please cite the 2 years thing?

 

[Gengar84]

My gut says that the ballot was always intended for Ultimate but they just weren’t ready to announce the game at the time. That doesn’t mean that the characters chosen in Smash 4 didn’t also get a lot of votes. Most probably would have had enough votes to make it anyways. I’m not really bothered since we got the same result in the end. We just had to wait a bit longer for some characters. That’s just my personal feeling though and I admit I could be way off.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My gut says that the ballot was always intended for Ultimate but they just weren’t ready to announce the game at the time. That doesn’t mean that the characters chosen in Smash 4 didn’t also get a lot of votes. Most probably would have had enough votes to make it anyways. I’m not really bothered since we got the same result in the end. We just had to wait a bit longer for some characters. That’s just my personal feeling though and I admit I could be way off.

No, it's about right. The ballot was made with in mind that a character from it could possibly get in Smash For, but wasn't a guarantee. It was still intended to be used for future games as is.

Cause it was bound to get tons of character options, and many, beyond just characters, got used for it.

However, we still lack some information. We also know characters weren't all licensed "2 years in advance" anyway, since some finished licensing for Ultimate by November 2018. Meaning they weren't in talk for more than a little over a year at best. That would've been for Smash For only, though I'm still waiting on the citing. I actually remember it more as "up to 2 years in advance", but I could be remembering it wrong either way.

 

[Lenidem]

On the subject of Pokémon Trainer: I absolutely love him. He's the character I play the most. Back before Brawl's release, I thought this concept was pure genius and hoped that the next Smash would have "Gold" with the second generation starters. Of course, it would be even better if each Pokémon was also playable separately: just give them a down-b, and we're good. They can even reuse the current victory poses.

On the subject of the ballot: after careful thinking, I voted for Skull Kid (and only him: I respected the one person = one vote rule). I hesitated between him, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie. I didn't vote for B&K because I believed they were impossible. And I chose Skull Kid over King K. Rool because I prefer the Zelda serie, and because Majora's Mask is, in my opinion, one of the very best games of this franchise.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

On the subject of Pokémon Trainer: I absolutely love him. He's the character I play the most. Back before Brawl's release, I thought this concept was pure genius and hoped that the next Smash would have "Gold" with the second generation starters. Of course, it would be even better if each Pokémon was also playable separately: just give them a down-b, and we're good. They can even reuse the current victory poses.

On the subject of the ballot: after careful thinking, I voted for Skull Kid (and only him: I respected the one person = one vote rule). I hesitated between him, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie. I didn't vote for B&K because I believed they were impossible. And I chose Skull Kid over King K. Rool because I prefer the Zelda serie, and because Majora's Mask is, in my opinion, one of the very best games of this franchise.

IMO, I'd love the ability to have the separate Pokemon as well as the Trainer mechanic. One thought is just... add the alternate versions. Charizard's a little awkward, unless it's one of the Mega Charizard's(Y, maybe), with a very different Final Smash. Or have it turn into Mega Charizard X during it? Either way, awkward. Squirtle could easily have a remake in Wartorlte, and Ivysaur in Bulbasaur. So akin to an Echo, but not entirely. That could make for cool ways to play both sets. They wouldn't have to have a chance at all beyond a Down B even(or very minor differences. They wouldn't have the auto-switch mechanic, at least. I don't remember what mechanics PT now has).

Otherwise, the idea of mapping PT's switch to a new button while also giving them down b's and not auto-changing on death is another good way to handle it. Only problem is what happens if people want to switch fast. Kind of no way to make it super good, heh.