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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Wonder Smash

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Huh. I was looking up the Sonic thing for Melee, and he was "strongly considered", and this is obviously before Sega would have a game on it. Yuji Naka did ask in May 2001, and the game was too far in development.

It isn't till December 2001 Sonic Adventure 2: Battle releases. However, it's worth noting that Sega didn't leave the console business till January 2001, so it's possible they at least were working on the Sonic games by May(especially Sonic Advance 1, which also released in December 2001), which would explain why. Sega and Nintendo were at least working together to release games, so it wouldn't be hard to license Sonic outright. So as I said before, it's less about when a game even releases for eligibility, and it's way more about the licensing to use the character that can affect their chances. And even then? This comes down to not just the character. If a company is willing to cooperate with Nintendo, that means that any licensing for any character has a decent chance. Them making any kind of appearance or any plan for one just puts them in a better situation as they're going to have some activity, and that very often makes any character or series easier to license the character/general content from. But as I've said before, it's nothing more than simple business.
I know this post was made some pages ago but I just want to point out that things were different back then. Miyamoto liked the idea and actually tried to make it happen. Had Sonic been added before any of his games hit Nintendo consoles, there's no telling how different things would have been with third-party characters in Smash.

But things just simply didn't turn out that way and when we did finally start getting third-party characters, so much had changed; Sonic had plenty of games on Nintendo consoles, as well as a crossover game with Mario at the time and Miyamoto really had nothing much to do with Smash Bros anymore. It was really all Sakurai. So how things were back then doesn't tell us how things would have been later on or now.
 
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Gengar84

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I still think the requirement that the character had to appear on a Nintendo console (even if it was just a minor cameo) to be considered at all is a bit arbitrary. I can totally understand wanting to prioritize characters with a strong connection to Nintendo but that’s a completely different story than someone who makes a minor appearance that most people don’t even know about. I think the spirit of the restriction is to keep the game focused on Nintendo’s history. Almost every major character has appeared on a Nintendo console in some way so that restriction is almost meaningless at this point.
 
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Lenidem

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IMO, I'd love the ability to have the separate Pokemon as well as the Trainer mechanic. One thought is just... add the alternate versions. Charizard's a little awkward, unless it's one of the Mega Charizard's(Y, maybe), with a very different Final Smash. Or have it turn into Mega Charizard X during it? Either way, awkward. Squirtle could easily have a remake in Wartorlte, and Ivysaur in Bulbasaur. So akin to an Echo, but not entirely. That could make for cool ways to play both sets. They wouldn't have to have a chance at all beyond a Down B even(or very minor differences. They wouldn't have the auto-switch mechanic, at least. I don't remember what mechanics PT now has).

Otherwise, the idea of mapping PT's switch to a new button while also giving them down b's and not auto-changing on death is another good way to handle it. Only problem is what happens if people want to switch fast. Kind of no way to make it super good, heh.
Well, in Pokémon games, switching takes one turn, which is "plenty of time". If all starters had a proper down-b, therefore having a full moveset like regular characters, I think a low switch would be a fair price to pay.

you sure that was a rule?
Pretty sure it was written black on white on the website.
 
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Sucumbio

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In this site, players were presented with a small form where they nominated a character of their choice into the game as well as a reason to justify why they want that character. Players could enter their suggestions until October 3rd, 2015.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Well, in Pokémon games, switching takes one turn, which is "plenty of time". If all starters had a proper down-b, therefore having a full moveset like regular characters, I think a low switch would be a fair price to pay.
Oh, I'm not against the mechanic.

Pretty sure it was written black on white on the website.
I think it might've been vague depending the language? As shown a bit ago.

I know this post was made some pages ago but I just want to point out that things were different back then. Miyamoto liked the idea and actually tried to make it happen. Had Sonic been added before any of his games hit Nintendo consoles, there's no telling how different things would have been with third-party characters in Smash.

But things just simply didn't turn out that way and when we did finally start getting third-party characters, so much had changed; Sonic had plenty of games on Nintendo consoles, as well as a crossover game with Mario at the time and Miyamoto really had nothing much to do with Smash Bros anymore. It was really all Sakurai. So how things were back then doesn't tell us how things would have been later on or now.
There was no... real change. Because Sega actually said no to Sonic being in Brawl till the last minute when they changed their mind. Those extra games meant nothing in the long run. If they meant so much, why would they hesitate? Simple. Because not every company is as willing to give a character away. However, it's worth pointing out Yuji Naka wasn't asking for Sonic to be in either, and he in fact left the company by then. So of course Sega no longer has that influence, which was the core one that made it super easy to get Sonic.

There's also some rumors Sonic had trouble getting into 4. Not sure why those rumors spawned. Conversely, Bayonetta was hyper easy to get in due to Nintendo helping her come back from the brink(thus, they had an investment in her and exclusive rights to selling her game). Joker, who barely had a spin-off, still got in with Nintendo selecting him. What did we get? Multiple Atlus games throughout the years. Again, Licensing was the core thing going for Joker beyond being in a single good game at the time(and a single game either way) that he was outright chosen.

As I said, licensing matters. But obviously it only does so much, as proven with Sonic almost missing Brawl too.
 

fogbadge

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In this site, players were presented with a small form where they nominated a character of their choice into the game as well as a reason to justify why they want that character. Players could enter their suggestions until October 3rd, 2015.
so it was fine for me to vote for toad every day
 

Curious Villager

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What do you guys think of this video. Corrections have been made compared to the last version.

The top 10 characters are Doom Slayer, Dante, Isaac, Geno, Master Chief, Rayman, Waluigi, Phoenix Wright, Bandana Dee and Crash. Unlike the last Sourcegaming poll, there are three NIntendo characters in the top 10.
I'm surprised, yet quite pleased, that Layton still manages to hold on in the top 50 (and top 25 as far as third party characters go) whenever it comes to these fan polls, he always lingers around in the 30-ish places or so in these Source Gaming polls iirc.

Its nice that he still has bit of a dedicated little cult following going on, even if a bit small and silent for the most part, even if he's not discussed as much in Smash circles. Especially after every issue Level-5 keeps digging themselves in recent years...

Hopefully he'll one day at least get a spirit or trophy or something at the very least, especially if L5 is still around somehow...
 
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Lenidem

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Mmm, if I remember well, the French website specifically asked to vote only once. But I might be wrong.
 

Sucumbio

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I too recall the page specifically mentioning only one vote ... and to my chagrin nothing to indicate if I'd be wasting a vote if I chose a previous character that didn't return namely Snake.
 

Gengar84

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I thought it was limited to only one vote as well. There are a ton of characters I’d have loved to vote for otherwise. I voted K. Rool because I thought he had the highest chance out of characters I wanted but he wasn’t at the very top of my dream picks. Voting for most of my other favorites would have felt like throwing my vote away. Still, I’m really glad to have K. Rool and Sephiroth, who was one character I might have actually voted for over K. Rool if I thought he had a decent chance.
 

MrMcNuts

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I thought it was limited to only one vote as well. There are a ton of characters I’d have loved to vote for otherwise. I voted K. Rool because I thought he had the highest chance out of characters I wanted but he wasn’t at the very top of my dream picks. Voting for most of my other favorites would have felt like throwing my vote away. Still, I’m really glad to have K. Rool and Sephiroth, who was one character I might have actually voted for over K. Rool if I thought he had a decent chance.
I voted for Rayman every time I was at a different place with wifi incase they tracked votes by IP or anything lmao
 

Gengar84

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I voted for Rayman every time I was at a different place with wifi incase they tracked votes by IP or anything lmao
Lol that works. My brother and I just voted once each. I just realized how much one person and a group of his or her personal friends could have helped a character on the Source Gaming poll, even following the rules of one vote each. If someone could gather 15 or so people to rally towards one character, I think that would have probably been enough to get them close to the top 50. I don’t remember exactly how many points #50 got but if your top pick was worth 3 votes, it could have actually made a difference. It’s a bit of a shame I missed the boat.
 
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Diddy Kong

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You could only vote once per IP address I remember. So I'll admit, I committed fraud. Massive fraud.
 

SPEN18

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They wanted one vote per person I recall, yes. Of course they wouldn't be able to stop all multivoters but you have to have some measures in place if you're going to conduct an internet poll this large and get anything useful out of it.

Idk exactly what measures were put in place, but I think they were relatively successful at least in terms of preventing mass/spam votes. Like, the total vote count was only 1.8 million. Sounds like a big number, but it's actually a pretty small percentage of the total number of people who bought Smash 4: Smash 3DS alone sold over 9.5 million per Wikipedia, so even if you assume maximum possible overlap between 3DS/Wii U purchases, the vote count is less than 1/5 of the people who bought at least one version (ignoring a very small percentage of people who bought multiple copies, which is probably overshadowed anyway by copies shared amongst family members).

While we're on the subject, I think the vote count relative to the consumer base supports the idea that the demographic for the ballot was not overwhelmingly casual.

Edit: to add to the above, while they were likely able to stop most mass spam votes, there was probably little they could do to stop people voting like 2-3 times from different computers they had access to. If the average number of counted votes per fan ended up even only around 2-3, then that drags the number of voters even lower, possibly well below 1mil. depending on how good their countermeasures were.
 
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DarthEnderX

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My gut says that the ballot was always intended for Ultimate but they just weren’t ready to announce the game at the time. That doesn’t mean that the characters chosen in Smash 4 didn’t also get a lot of votes.
Obviously they did(though probably not so much Corrin). It just had no effect on them getting into 4, because they were already decided on and being made at the time.
 

Wonder Smash

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There was no... real change. Because Sega actually said no to Sonic being in Brawl till the last minute when they changed their mind. Those extra games meant nothing in the long run. If they meant so much, why would they hesitate? Simple. Because not every company is as willing to give a character away. However, it's worth pointing out Yuji Naka wasn't asking for Sonic to be in either, and he in fact left the company by then. So of course Sega no longer has that influence, which was the core one that made it super easy to get Sonic.
I don't recall Sega ever saying no or even "changing their mind". Just that Sonic was added at the last minute, probably after he got the most votes. The point I was making was that things were different when Melee was out compared to when Brawl was out and yes, so many changes have happened between those times. Whoever were behind those decisions likely had different reasons and probably were no longer behind those decisions later on. That and the state of so many series and companies had changed dramatically throughout those series too.

There's also some rumors Sonic had trouble getting into 4. Not sure why those rumors spawned. Conversely, Bayonetta was hyper easy to get in due to Nintendo helping her come back from the brink(thus, they had an investment in her and exclusive rights to selling her game). Joker, who barely had a spin-off, still got in with Nintendo selecting him. What did we get? Multiple Atlus games throughout the years. Again, Licensing was the core thing going for Joker beyond being in a single good game at the time(and a single game either way) that he was outright chosen.

As I said, licensing matters. But obviously it only does so much, as proven with Sonic almost missing Brawl too.
Like you said, that's a rumor, so I wouldn't look too much into that. And as for Joker, I think it has more to do with Sakurai being a big fan of Persona. Though their history with Atlus could have helped with that, even that's not 100% guaranteed looking at the lack of (sigh) Koei Tecmo characters in the roster. :mad:
 
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silenthunder

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Does it count the first vote or the last vote because my votes might have went to Sandbag. Oops.
 

Gengar84

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I don't recall Sega ever saying no or even "changing their mind". Just that Sonic was added at the last minute, probably after he got the most votes. The point I was making was that things were different when Melee was out compared to when Brawl was out and yes, so many changes have happened between those times. Whoever were behind those decisions likely had different reasons and probably were no longer behind those decisions later on. That and the state of so many series and companies had changed dramatically throughout those series too.



Like you said, that's a rumor, so I wouldn't look too much into that. And as for Joker, I think it has more to do with Sakurai being a big fan of Persona. Though their history with Atlus could have helped with that, even that's not 100% guaranteed looking at the lack of (sigh) Koei Tecmo characters in the roster. :mad:
Hopefully they make up for lost time and give us both Ryu Hyabusa and Lu Bu in the next Smash.
 

MrMcNuts

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Lol that works. My brother and I just voted once each. I just realized how much one person and a group of his or her personal friends could have helped a character on the Source Gaming poll, even following the rules of one vote each. If someone could gather 15 or so people to rally towards one character, I think that would have probably been enough to get them close to the top 50. I don’t remember exactly how many points #50 got but if your top pick was worth 3 votes, it could have actually made a difference. It’s a bit of a shame I missed the boat.
Oh if we're talking bout source gaming polls I only vote once in those things. I just did the different locations thing for the official ballot
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I honestly am still curious where Sakurai stated that "he took 2 years to licensing the other DLC"(google search doesn't help). I'm not sure that... fits any timeline anyway? Only Lucas, Roy, and Ryu were specified as having no relations to the ballot. Corrin obviously can't be, cause he didn't exist yet. Bayonetta isn't correlated, but her votes are noted. We still have Cloud being cited as having massive votes in general.

...So where did the 2 year licensing thing come from? I know characters take often up to 6 months to make(one of the few exceptions is Lucario, whose mechanic was massive enough it took a full year. Nobody else has been even close to cited as more than 6 months). Which of course ignores that proof of concept is a thing. And obviously 2 years doesn't apply for Ultimate either way(as the first 3rd party set of characters couldn't take more than over a year to get. Steve is the only character who basically took 2 or more years to license in Ultimate. That's the only one that's specifically that).
 
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fogbadge

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I honestly am still curious where Sakurai stated that "he took 2 years to licensing the other DLC"(google search doesn't help). I'm not sure that... fits any timeline anyway? Only Lucas, Roy, and Ryu were specified as having no relations to the ballot. Corrin obviously can't be, cause he didn't exist yet. Bayonetta isn't correlated, but her votes are noted. We still have Cloud being cited as having massive votes in general.

...So where did the 2 year licensing thing come from? I know characters take often up to 6 months to make(one of the few exceptions is Lucario, whose mechanic was massive enough it took a full year. Nobody else has been even close to cited as more than 6 months). Which of course ignores that proof of concept is a thing. And obviously 2 years doesn't apply for Ultimate either way(as the first 3rd party set of characters couldn't take more than over a year to get. Steve is the only character who basically took more 2 or more years to license in Ultimate. That's the only one that's specifically that).
that's the first i've heard of it. closest i can think of is steve taking 5 years
 

NonSpecificGuy

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The Ballot was one of the most satisfying eras of Smash speculation and discussion ever. Not very much “my character is better/more likely/more popular than your character” it was mostly fans of the characters coming together and campaigning to get their character into the game. Other character campaigners supporting different character campaigns and all around people just resorting to “hey that would be cool if they do good in the ballot”

Really wish we could go back to that point…
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I cannot find any official source directly connecting Cloud to the ballot. Only mentions that he received requests in general, and had a big bulk of the FF requests.
To clarify, it's not saying he's from the ballot. It may have influenced it, if the votes were counted early enough. But that's only cause he did use Ike as a base to speed it up. However, we don't know exactly any source of "it took 2 years to license", which completely changes the situation.

I doubt he's from the ballot too, cause a month of licensing sounds farfetched. It's not entirely impossible on its own merits, just feels unlikely. And yeah, he never specified Cloud was not. It's likely the time specifications that makes it hard to explain the situation, especially as Sakurai can't always say "how licensing went". Considering the very little FF/FFVII content we had, he might've had to be tight-lipped. So him being vague could be for a reason. I do agree however that we shouldn't cite it as a ballot thing without further evidence. He actually doesn't talk that much about Cloud's reasoning for so little content in general even after Ultimate. Maybe he will someday?

that's the first i've heard of it. closest i can think of is steve taking 5 years
Yup~ I know licensing can take time, maybe up to a little over a year bar Steve(that's the maximum time really allowed for various Ultimate DLC that we've seen, barring the aforementioned).

That said, of course, this isn't applicable to For, the only other time.
 
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MasterCheef

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I think it’s pretty cool that two of Microsoft’s biggest characters would each make for an awesome reveal trailer battling against Samus. The first being Master Chief and another being Sarah Kerrigan from StarCraft. Both Metroid and StarCraft seemingly took a lot of inspiration from Alien and both characters have a lot of similarities that would make them an awesome matchup.
thank you both for more recognition on why _ Master Chief _ in Smash in my opinion is one of the two most important next characters to get in.

Halo being playable in smash just opens up the crossover possibilities to a new degree.

Want to wage console wars over xbox/sega/nintendo? Simple, just pitch MC against sonic and mario!
Super soldier vs super soldier? Throw cloud against spartan 117!
Comparing flavors of shooters? Ink and metroid your way against master chef...
Or for some bat**** insanity just place sora and master chief together for some inexplicable "how is this possible" scenarios. It writes itself to an extent few other characters can do.
 

DarthEnderX

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To clarify, it's not saying he's from the ballot. It may have influenced it, if the votes were counted early enough. But that's only cause he did use Ike as a base to speed it up.
The idea that, even using Ike as a base, they could have negotiated for Cloud, and built out his entire moveset for his trailer, all in 6 weeks, shows a gross misunderstanding of how game development works.
 

MasterCheef

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The idea that, even using Ike as a base, they could have negotiated for Cloud, and built out his entire moveset for his trailer, all in 6 weeks, shows a gross misunderstanding of how game development works.
Were it soo easy. we could have gotten 9 characters in 1 year.
 

SPEN18

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Even if they used the first two weeks worth of ballot results to decide Bayo, Cloud, etc. that's still arguably scummy use of the ballot after telling people "you have six months to get your vote in." It's like if one or two kids turn their assignments in a week early, and then the teacher/professor decides the curve for the whole class based on how those earlybirds did.

But I still think it's very unlikely that those two weeks of results were really used; at best it would've just been a confirmation bias for a character they were already very strongly considering, or maybe an early peek at how things were going to make sure their spam countermeasures were being effective and such. Plus we only know that the Ike/ZSS data was copied two weeks into the ballot; it's pretty likely that they didn't start that copying process the exact same day they decided on the characters (given the complexity of negotiations and dev planning), which narrows the window even more.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'll save time; Please don't say "it takes two years to license" if you're not willing to actually source it. At that point, it's not a believable quote. Memories are faulty.

Next, "you don't know how programming works" is a meaningless phrasing itself. No, I'm not an expert on it(I am a game developer, but a beginning one). ...Exactly how does these words actually do anything to help me learn more about the licensing costs and the development time? Explain it properly. Like, I'm inclined to believe it, but it's at the end of the day, just "you're wrong". Not the more important "you're wrong, and this is where you made said errors".

Thirdly, it's hard to call that scummy when they promised pretty much nothing of the sort. Their words are "vote for your character and we may put them in Smash For." Nowhere do they say "only after counting every vote". They also said said data would be used for future games. Both of these still holds true as statements no matter how early they used the ballot data. They in no way broke the actual letter or the spirit of the word. A single vote can be legitimate by all means with how vague their wording was. That said, I get what you mean, but they're a business first. If that data was only meant for Smash For, then it would be scummy, yes. Because it would mean the data would only apply to practically two characters at best, and be unused otherwise. Thankfully that's not the case.

Confirmation bias might be plausible, but I looked closer at the timeline. Cloud is December 2015 as a release. That means he'd have to have a bare minimum of 6 months. That means he'd have been started work on... at least when Mewtwo was fully released. So yeah, I clearly misread that timeline. It has nothing to do with some 2 year thing(which doesn't make any sense. DLC wasn't even decided upon that early. Maybe a year or a little more at best? This even explains the very small music set he got, along with the bare minimum trophies. Also, it took forever for the amiibo to get out. So maybe Bayonetta, but Cloud would've been in talks for at least a year(not 2) realistically. For that to work, he'd have to have started talks in April 2013. Uhhhhh... not likely. DLC wasn't even close to being considered just yet. Looking at when some more details came up even then, the only close to thing was much later in November 2013 when some talk related to DLC happened(namely confirming he didn't have plans for it at the time). Overall, none of the evidence suggests it, so until it's sourced, it's pretty unlikely DLC wasn't planned outright till very late in Smash 4's development, and seeing as how Lucas, Roy, and Ryu came out pretty fast, it clearly was more than Mewtwo behind the scenes. It'd still have been only at most a few months in, like November 2014 at best they'd have been started overall(besides Mewtwo, who was in works earlier). The point behind Mewtwo and the white lie is to see how well he can gauge it. Most likely to kind of see if it absolutely needed to be paid content(or how much the payment is necessary). They were going to release any way, as they'd be a little too far in to stop.

There, found a bit of a timeline; "the DLC we are releasing for Sm4sh is authentic, developed only after we finished working on the main game." http://sourcegaming.info/2015/04/23/sakurai-on-dlc-its-all-about-making-players-happy/ At least for Mewtwo alone. So sometime before Smash 3DS was done would be the timeline itself. A few months before its release sounds about right. That'd give enough time for the Psychic Pokemon to be somewhat easier to show near when Smash For Wii U released. The fact they had almost nothing does suggest it had little work done(but we also had plausible 3 full characters, even if one is partially a clone in terms of development requirements) before release. Or at least was recorded while it wasn't far enough in to show any notable animations.
 
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NotGenerico

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Haven't posted here in a long while. I see the current discussion is regarding the Smash Ballot. I distinctly remember voting for Travis Touchdown, Ridley, Snake, Amaterasu and Ringabel.

I'd probably have voted a bit differently if I had known characters like Cloud were on the table I, like many other people, thought characters closely associated with Nintendo were the only real options. I didn't even vote for Banjo even if I wanted him because I felt it'd be a waste of a vote, I didn't think Microsoft would allow it, even after Phil Spencer's blessing. I thought his Twitter post was just some good PR statement for them and that there's no way it'd actually happen. Shows what I know, I guess.

I do wonder if Nintendo would ever do another Smash Ballot, I feel like the votes this time would be extremely different.
 

Wonder Smash

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I think it’s pretty cool that two of Microsoft’s biggest characters would each make for an awesome reveal trailer battling against Samus. The first being Master Chief and another being Sarah Kerrigan from StarCraft. Both Metroid and StarCraft seemingly took a lot of inspiration from Alien and both characters have a lot of similarities that would make them an awesome matchup.
thank you both for more recognition on why _ Master Chief _ in Smash in my opinion is one of the two most important next characters to get in.
I should also remind you that Alien was also an influence on Doom.
 
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chocolatejr9

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So since we were talking about the Ballot again, it reminded me of that old Sega mobile game Sega Heroes, of all things. Specifically the fact it had a surprisingly large survey asking about potential characters to add:

https://papadripopoulos.me/sega.html (found this on Twitter, though I think some of the pics are broken)

Seriously, I don't think anybody was thinking about stuff like Congo Bongo or the Sonic Shuffle characters at the time the game was active. But anyway, that got me thinking: what if Nintendo tried something similar for Smash? Granted, it'd probably only be for the first parties, but sorta giving a list of characters they'd be willing to add, plus a place where people could suggest additional characters not already there (which was also part of the Sega Heroes survey).

Then again, Sega Heroes was a mobile game, so it was probably able to get away with such leniancy for that alone, but still: just an idea that I had.
 

SPEN18

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Thirdly, it's hard to call that scummy when they promised pretty much nothing of the sort.
Okay, I can concede that "scummy" is not the best adjective (though I did say "arguably"). What I mean is that using the data early would not be totally fair to fans who planned to vote later, maybe even take longer to think about their vote, with the knowledge that they had multiple months to submit something (or those who simply didn't get the news about the ballot until later). If they used the two-week results and then later used the full results, then essentially some fans would have their votes factored into decisions more times than others. If they wanted to use the data in two weeks they should have only left it open that long, but presumably they wanted to leave it open a long time to get as many votes as possible.

To be clear, I'm not making any accusations or calling any names; after all, there's no proof of them using any results early and besides that I really, really don't think they did anyway, at least not after the tiny two-week window.

Most likely Cloud and Bayo were just in the works before the Ballot and after seeing Bayo do well it became super easy to advertise it in the reveal. AFAIK they never literally said "we picked her explicitly because she ranked high," only "she ranked high" (although of course some would say that they're effectively and/or implied to be the same thing, which would spur on the controversy).
 

Ivander

Smash Legend
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11,110
So since we were talking about the Ballot again, it reminded me of that old Sega mobile game Sega Heroes, of all things. Specifically the fact it had a surprisingly large survey asking about potential characters to add:

https://papadripopoulos.me/sega.html (found this on Twitter, though I think some of the pics are broken)

Seriously, I don't think anybody was thinking about stuff like Congo Bongo or the Sonic Shuffle characters at the time the game was active. But anyway, that got me thinking: what if Nintendo tried something similar for Smash? Granted, it'd probably only be for the first parties, but sorta giving a list of characters they'd be willing to add, plus a place where people could suggest additional characters not already there (which was also part of the Sega Heroes survey).

Then again, Sega Heroes was a mobile game, so it was probably able to get away with such leniency for that alone, but still: just an idea that I had.
I think the hugest difference between Sega Heroes and Smash Bros. is that Sega Heroes is a more flexible smaller project while Smash Bros. is a very big project and so Nintendo puts alot into the planning and steadiness of Smash Bros and pretty much "sticks to the schedule and plan". Whereas Sega Heroes isn't meant to be a major project and the plan grows as it goes on. And for most mobile games that rely on a community, including MOBA and Gacha games, they often have to plan with the community in mind, hence the abundance of surveys they often do, whereas Nintendo makes "one big long plan and will not modify it suddenly in response to stuff aside from incredibly important stuff."

While I think a Nintendo Poll focused around 1st Parties or choices picked by Nintendo would be interesting, I don't think this will happen until they have a plan for it in mind and when they are ready to do it. And who knows? There's the off-chance it might not even be for Smash Bros alone.
 
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Diddy Kong

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To be honest, Cloud and Bayonetta where relatively "safe popular" choices. They would do well with the general public, because Cloud was the new Sonic in terms of popularity, and Bayonetta was recent and Nintendo invested heavily on the series. In hindsight, I get why they did what they did. At the time? I WAS PISSED!!! Especially cause I felt K.Rool got cheated.
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
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Next, "you don't know how programming works" is a meaningless phrasing itself. No, I'm not an expert on it(I am a game developer, but a beginning one). ...Exactly how does these words actually do anything to help me learn more about the licensing costs and the development time? Explain it properly. Like, I'm inclined to believe it, but it's at the end of the day, just "you're wrong". Not the more important "you're wrong, and this is where you made said errors".
Mainly because, I'd rather just let you continue being wrong, then take the time it would take to explain to you why. Unlike you, I'm not willing to spend 50 paragraphs discussing it. I'm not gonna google old videos and tweets for you. Nobody is paying me to help you learn.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
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Okay, I can concede that "scummy" is not the best adjective (though I did say "arguably"). What I mean is that using the data early would not be totally fair to fans who planned to vote later, maybe even take longer to think about their vote, with the knowledge that they had multiple months to submit something (or those who simply didn't get the news about the ballot until later). If they used the two-week results and then later used the full results, then essentially some fans would have their votes factored into decisions more times than others. If they wanted to use the data in two weeks they should have only left it open that long, but presumably they wanted to leave it open a long time to get as many votes as possible.

To be clear, I'm not making any accusations or calling any names; after all, there's no proof of them using any results early and besides that I really, really don't think they did anyway, at least not after the tiny two-week window.

Most likely Cloud and Bayo were just in the works before the Ballot and after seeing Bayo do well it became super easy to advertise it in the reveal. AFAIK they never literally said "we picked her explicitly because she ranked high," only "she ranked high" (although of course some would say that they're effectively and/or implied to be the same thing, which would spur on the controversy).
I know you aren't. I'd just like to point out the particular data wasn't ignored, but was meant for more than one installment. So while I again, get what you mean, that it looks scummy, it kind of parallels(though I think that's only a fictional version of it?) tryouts for a play; Very often, at least in fiction, we see them choose an actor or actress much faster than making sure everyone can get their moment in. It's played for comedy, mind you.

The idea is that they try to gather data, but don't feel they have to wait till the "very end" to use it. Being they couldn't, cause there's no way to use said data at the end for Smash For, it was without a doubt set in an exact timeline that any character chosen would be before the ballot ended. If any. This actually does explain their use of "may use it for Smash For's DLC" too. They were aware the time it's being run makes it impossible to add a character only afterwards.

I'm not going to say it's not a jerkish practice. It actually is. It is unfair. Absolutely. It may have worked out if they had done it... actually earlier. Problem is, they clearly set it up so late it forces a poor way to use it for Smash For. Albeit, it may have been part of why two characters got in, it may have not. Nothing we can really prove either way.

Yes, we know Cloud's official statement for why he got in, but we lack enough context. Albeit, if he said the ballot, it still would've actually made sense for reasons I said before. Licensing itself would've started being worked on close to either when Mewtwo started work, or a bit later, and coupled with what is clearly... too tiny of content compared to every other character pack, it's very clear his licensing wasn't in a long process either way compared to the rest. In fact, looking at talks, they went pretty damn well for Sakurai, as he wasn't given any knowable trouble. Given the timeline, it was likely a year(at most) of licensing, which would still give him about 6 months of work time. Is it possible the Ballot was the final thing to seal the deal? Time-wise, yes, it's actually possible. There's enough legitimate licensing time and legitimate work time within the timeline given. That said, as you know, I don't think the ballot was involved. Albeit, I also did notice his major lack of not talking much about any real licensing with Cloud or even Sephiroth. He's easily willing to talk about the stuff with Dragon Quest. It could be a Square thing. I know there's also music troubles too due to various owners of it, so that might not have helped. If they don't want said data in the public, well. Can't do much about that. That said... was their a lot of other works in general that usually avoid talking about the licensing related to Square? Not necessarily Enix too. At least Enix has a clear excuse of many teams owning parts of the DQ series, hence why even Sakurai was surprised they gave him more than two Heroes to work with with little issue. It's hard to say with Kingdom Hearts cause we've often seen some really annoying limited time stuff. Though to be fair, I don't know if it's parts of Square, Enix, or Square-Enix overall that owns KH either. The companies combined are a complicated mess. (Ironically FF isn't as complicated as DQ, but I don't remember how many companies are involved in the former, so...)
 

Chuderz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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Well I voted for Cloud on the ballot and Crash. If I had known they were gonna keep using it for such long time afterward I would have voted for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more characters I like but at least Cloud and Crash were my most earnest requests although I definitely would have thrown in Spyro and Master Chief too for the show of support. I still very much hope Crash's fanbase will migrate to Spyro if Crash gets into a Smash game because the only way Spyro is getting in is through sheer western support. I also regret not showing Sceptile love when it mattered most but it wouldn't have mattered anyways because the support died down massively anyway.

I still stand by Sceptile or Elma would have been much better choices than Corrin. I don't understand any other way other than rank-and-file bias for Fire Emblem from the Smash team for them to have opted for Corrin. They say it was because they wanted a character from a new game but Sceptile and Elma both met that criteria at the time and if you discounted Sceptile for his new game being a remake that still leaves Elma which would have helped rep Xenoblade further. She would have been more different too plus she's a black chick which is double representation points.

We literally have zero black women in Smash and Nintendo is sitting on 2 first-party ones that serve as notable requests within their respective communities. Time's up Nintendo haha.
 
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