Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

I have a question to ask of the thread.

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Be honest with you answer

I thought it did back when all I knew about it was all the vets, Inkling, Ridley and Daisy. Even back then it had every character, which was... like... 70, and dozens and dozens of stages.

Then we got like twenty more characters. So, yeah.

Maybe the gameplay isn't as everyone would want it, but it's tighter than most of the series, and you're never going to please some people unless you make it literally Melee.

The online stinks though. But it's not like Smash ever had good online.

Is it perfect? Of course not. But I think the ultimate moniker is deserved. They're not going to be able to top this one, roster-wise at least.

 

[SPEN18]

I have a question to ask of the thread.

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Be honest with you answer

No, most of the other Smash games were just as good or better at the times of their releases. Ult's singleplayer is nothing special relative to much of the rest of the series. The online is still bad. And as a couch party game Ult still lives up to the "Smash" name, but again it's pretty on par with where other entries were when they were first released. Mechanically it is generally sound, but putting aside the natural improvements on the graphics and the feel of the controls that come with being on a newer-gen system, any mechanical improvements fall well short of earning it the "Ultimate" moniker.
Many point to the raw amount of content in support of Ult being the best in the series. It is indeed surface-level impressive, but it doesn't really overwhelm me when I actually, you know, play the game (not like raw content load is the only consideration, anyway). There are large portions of the character and stage rosters that are just recycled from previous entries and that I didn't need or want to see return; if anything, it is hard to help the feeling that work done on lots of those items took away from the amount of new things we could have seen, however accurate that feeling may be. And while there are tons of "spirit" collectibles, Brawl already had 700 PNG stickers and 500 trophies with full 3D models and flavorful descriptions; meanwhile, collectible grinding in Brawl was arguably even more entertaining/varied than it was in Ult.
In summary, Ult is "just another Smash game" for me. Which, it should be made clear, makes it an excellent game. Just not clearly or convincingly better at its release time than the other Smash games were at their release times. That's my personal opinion.

 

[Chuderz]

I don't think you'd literally have to make it Melee. For example Kazuya's crouch dash could be a perfectly acceptable replacement for wavedashing across the entire cast. I also think you could loosen this mechanic up some in order to utilize the same system for sliding smash attacks or DACUS or whatever ya wanna call it.

I hope if Aerial Smash Attacks ever become a thing they go the extra mile and add Sliding Smash Attacks because to me they're kind of two sides to the same coin of gameplay depth.

As for the Ultimate question. Sure it stands up relative to the previous entries and other platform fighters. I think it still has plenty of room to grow mechanically and content wise. If this is the pinnacle of Smash then I can't say I'm not a bit disappointed. While Ultimate is my favorite Smash game I think with EiH and the title people really go out of their way to overhype it. Like the whole 89 character thing. It's like c'mon guys. Counting the echoes is bull**** and you know some of those characters with a number shouldn't really count either but people want to make the number as big as possible to overhype the game just for the sake of overhyping because that's how people on the internet are I guess.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I have a question to ask of the thread.

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Be honest with you answer

Yes, it’s only a Smash Run and Good Online away from Perfection imo.

 

[Sucumbio]

I have a question to ask of the thread.

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Be honest with you answer

yes, insofar As it has the Ultimate roster and balance. As a game it's the best balanced thanks to large number of patches. and has the largest roster with excellent dlc. But it's not without issues. It's online is the smoothest to date though the change from For Glory to Elite Smash was unfortunate. Brawl has my favorite one player modes. I preferred trophies too.

 

[Chuderz]

I'm still annoyed that they disabled taunts for online matches. Like what's the point of even having taunts at that point? Then they even went a step further than that with them seemingly standardizing taunt length for Ultimate which ruined certain characters' taunts like Bayonetta's as the most egregious example.

 

[fogbadge]

I have a question to ask of the thread.

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Be honest with you answer

hmm i'd say no. in terms of the actual meaning of ultimate meaning "the last" it almost certainly won't be. as for the meaning people often use ultimate for as in "best thing ever" i think i'd still say no. this one truly did change my who perception of the series a bit and overall have mixed feelings towards it. a game that's left me hyped and disappointed at various points over it's life cycle will do that. for me smash is about the characters so it's always a bit hard to have many of your favourite characters along side many you can't stand. and one that makes you feel sick to look at. even outside of that it still feels like there's both a lot more and a lot less to do compared to previous ones what with all star mode being dumbed down and most other things being left out in favour of spirits

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, now that Smashboards is back online, here's a question I wanted to ask: a bunch of rumors have been popping up about Nintendo doing more remasters of Gamecube games (not just the Zelda titles or Metroid Prime). Anybody here have any thoughts on that?

Oh, and to make it Smash-related, we can also talk about the possibility of a Melee remaster, as unlikely as that is.

I'd love remasters of DK Jungle Beat and Mario Kart Double Dash, Jungle Beat especially if they add some original DKC elements into the mix. In general I wouldn't mind more DK games like it. And Mario Kart Double Dash is to me still the perfect karting game.

Twilight Princess and Wind Waker are cool, but I played them enough already. Would sooner buy the Skyward Sword remake, which I didn't.

Also having tons of fun with Xenoblade 3 now, and I bet Noah would be an amazing addition to the roster. I could see them go for the class change gimmick, but not for the full moveset, more like how Byleth uses the Hero Relics. I especially think Noah would use the weapons of Lanz, Sena and Mio, mostly for Smashes and tilts. His own Arts for Specials like Shulk does 'em, and Ourbouros Final Smash of course.

 

[Dinoman96]

I'd love remasters of DK Jungle Beat and Mario Kart Double Dash, Jungle Beat especially if they add some original DKC elements into the mix. I

Funny enough, they already kinda did that for the New Play Control! re-release of Jungle Beat. They added in barrel cannons that weren't there in the GCN version.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Yeah.

• Biggest roster and biggest selection of stages.
• Most music, items and assists.
• Is a celebration of the series (and many others).

Fair, but do you think the content itself really great? Quantity is one thing but quality is another. Do you think the quality of roster, stages, music etc picks are worthy of the Ultimate title.

And how is a celebration of the series?

No, most of the other Smash games were just as good or better at the times of their releases. Ult's singleplayer is nothing special relative to much of the rest of the series.

What examples of Smash games were better of their releases?

Also Ult's singleplayer like WoL may have some its flaws I still the best singleplayer we have gotten for the series. People oversing Subspace's praises too much honestly

And while there are tons of "spirit" collectibles, Brawl already had 700 PNG stickers and 500 trophies with full 3D models and flavorful descriptions; meanwhile, collectible grinding in Brawl was arguably even more entertaining/varied than it was in Ult.
In summary, Ult is "just another Smash game" for me. Which, it should be made clear, makes it an excellent game. Just not clearly or convincingly better at its release time than the other Smash games were at their release times. That's my personal opinion.

What made collectible grinding in Brawl more entertaining than Ult? Most of the collectibles were gained pretty sparingly and randomly. As least with Spirits, you actually earn through a series of varied battles and have gameplay value. Especially more than stickers.

 

[PeridotGX]

I'd love remasters of DK Jungle Beat and Mario Kart Double Dash, Jungle Beat especially if they add some original DKC elements into the mix. In general I wouldn't mind more DK games like it. And Mario Kart Double Dash is to me still the perfect karting game.

I think remasters of Colosseum and XD would be really cool. They're kind of the black sheep of the series, sitting in the grey area between spinoff and mainline, so a remaster would allow them to get much needed attention.

 

[SPEN18]

What examples of Smash games were better of their releases?

I think Brawl was better, and 4 was on par with Ult. 64 it is hard to compare since it was the very first game. And Melee I could go back and forth on: the super-rushed nature of Melee led to really strange (or even downright bad) roster decisions and mechanical quirks, but the game is easily much more expansive than 64; also the singleplayer isn't really anything special in Melee but several of the modes are new from 64.

Also Ult's singleplayer like WoL may have some its flaws I still the best singleplayer we have gotten for the series. People oversing Subspace's praises too much honestly

Respectfully disagree. WoL, when it comes down to it, is a glorified Event Match; while that comparison doesn't do justice to the expansiveness of the WoL mode, I find the core loop to be pretty underwhelming in comparison to SSE. SSE was a much better singleplayer mode for its time, and did a much better job of selling the "allstar" mantra for the franchise. The only other major thing Ult has, other than modest improvements to certain items that you'd simply expect from the newer-gen game, is a much better stage builder, but even then Brawl's stage builder was at least equally novel for its time and is easier to get into for casuals and houseparty-goers.

What made collectible grinding in Brawl more entertaining than Ult? Most of the collectibles were gained pretty sparingly and randomly. As least with Spirits, you actually earn through a series of varied battles and have gameplay value. Especially more than stickers.

A lot of it comes down to your feelings on WoL vs. SSE. Most of the variation in the "spirit" battles I find to be pretty surface-level, and those battles are crafted more for cute references than actual gameplay value. A lot of them just make you feel like you're playing a worse VS mode. The "spirits" have more gameplay integration than the stickers, but I'm not really a fan of either; the whole "equip collectibles to give yourself buffs" thing I was never too keen on in Smash, and the level grinding for "spirits" I found to be mostly unfun, even though I like a lot of grindy RPGs.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Tangentially related to Nintendo, but some speculation's been running rampant about Konami announcing some projects soon. They do have a mystery reveal set up for the Tokyo Game Show from an entry in a world-loved series. Also the rumor mill has been active about some remasters of the first three Metal Gear Solid titles.

As far as the former, given the Switch oriented Japan focused direction of Konami, I'm guessing either an anime tie in (Attack on Titan?) ala their Yu-Gi-Oh releases, an Eastern appeal franchise revival like Suikoden, or maybe an outside chance of another Silent Hill.

In regards to the latter, I'm not sure. Remasters would fit the more modest budgets they go for, and playing the first three titles on the go via the Switch (because there's no way Konami will ignore the system given how valuable its been for them) would be an easy selling point. However there's been constant MGS rumors for years now and its hard to see why now they have some much validity. Its a possibility, but much like the "Sony buying Konami" talk, it does reek of a certain wish fulfillment that doesn't quite line up with the current market strategy.

I am curious if a more niche franchise like Suikoden did get a major release on Switch (even a collection) would get people speculating about its elements popping up in the next Smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

They do have a mystery reveal set up for the Tokyo Game Show from an entry in a world-loved series.

Bombergirl worldwide release.
Exclusive on the Nintendo Switch

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Brawl was better, and 4 was on par with Ult. 64 it is hard to compare since it was the very first game. And Melee I could go back and forth on: the super-rushed nature of Melee led to really strange (or even downright bad) roster decisions and mechanical quirks, but the game is easily much more expansive than 64; also the singleplayer isn't really anything special in Melee but several of the modes are new from 64.



Respectfully disagree. WoL, when it comes down to it, is a glorified Event Match; while that comparison doesn't do justice to the expansiveness of the WoL mode, I find the core loop to be pretty underwhelming in comparison to SSE. SSE was a much better singleplayer mode for its time, and did a much better job of selling the "allstar" mantra for the franchise. The only other major thing Ult has, other than modest improvements to certain items that you'd simply expect from the newer-gen game, is a much better stage builder, but even then Brawl's stage builder was at least equally novel for its time and is easier to get into for casuals and houseparty-goers.



A lot of it comes down to your feelings on WoL vs. SSE. Most of the variation in the "spirit" battles I find to be pretty surface-level, and those battles are crafted more for cute references than actual gameplay value. A lot of them just make you feel like you're playing a worse VS mode. The "spirits" have more gameplay integration than the stickers, but I'm not really a fan of either; the whole "equip collectibles to give yourself buffs" thing I was never too keen on in Smash, and the level grinding for "spirits" I found to be mostly unfun, even though I like a lot of grindy RPGs.

Brawl had great release pacing yeah, the Dojo was exiting and consistent in their new information release. Even if sometimes the updates where less spectacular, the consistency was just something I really could appreciate.

Smash 4 and Ultimate aren't all too comparable honestly. Ultimate had Everyone Is Here of course and that was a giant character reveal that was extremely hype. And other big hype updates as the 8/8 Direct with K.Rool and the Belmonts and the Echo Fighters. So Ultimate really dumped their character reveals at times, but the DLC characters where released in a more steady pacing.

Melee did have a weird roster though. I can't see how Sakurai would opt for very strange choices as Ice Climbers, Sheik and Mr.Game & Watch over the likes of Diddy, Wario and King Dedede for example. Had they missed the boat, nobody would've missed them, but Diddy, Wario and Dedede where just about the biggest requests for Brawl. So that goes to show.

 

[fogbadge]

Ultimate had Everyone Is Here of course and that was a giant character reveal that was extremely hype.

surely the giant character reveal was ridley?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Ultimate Smash Game in the sense that it is the best Smash game? Absolutely.

Ultimate in the sense of just being as great as possible? I'm afraid its current net code prevents it from being able to make that claim. There's always going to be room to add more stuff to Smash, but without better netcode, it's never going to feel like the ultimate package.

I'd love remasters of DK Jungle Beat and Mario Kart Double Dash

I have no use for a MKDD remaster. I just need more MKDD tracks in MK8.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'd say SSBB is Ultimate in that the main gameplay has never been stronger and the overall scope of the roster is incredible (not perfect by any stretch given the still unfortunate omissions but still remarkable).

Everything else falls closer into more relative categories and is where some of the flaws are a bit more apparent. The lack of a Subspace Emissary followup will be a sticking point with many, and the online issues are glaring given the far greater competence displayed by other fighting games. Its less of an issue with me given that I think World of Light plays to Smash's strengths far better than SSE ever did, and am fairly indifferent about online play in general. Still, the latter does hurt Ultimate's overall package and demonstrates that the series still has bad habits it has yet to shake off. Most of my particular problems lie in the lack of inclusion of various novel single player elements from previous games (basically every mode but Tour coming from Smash 4 would have been appreciated) and things like the Stage Builder still feeling undercooked, same with the options around Mii Fighters.

Essentially in the most critical areas (gameplay in brawls, roster strength, main single player campaign), it is Ultimate, but does fall a bit short outside that; a bit like Mario Kart 8 for Wii U in that sense, where the strong core of the game did a lot of compensate for the disappointments in terms of options/features.

 

[Diddy Kong]

surely the giant character reveal was ridley?

Ironically, I feel Ridley is wayyyy too small in Ultimate.

 

[Oracle Link]

I have a question to ask of the thread.

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Be honest with you answer

It does live up to its Title...
Its Japanese Title SUPER SMASH BROS SPECIAL Perfectly describes SSB5 as a Special Ocassion which brings back every Fighter without saying its The Pinnacle of what Smash can be!

 

[Troykv]

Melee did have a weird roster though. I can't see how Sakurai would opt for very strange choices as Ice Climbers, Sheik and Mr.Game & Watch over the likes of Diddy, Wario and King Dedede for example. Had they missed the boat, nobody would've missed them, but Diddy, Wario and Dedede where just about the biggest requests for Brawl. So that goes to show.

As far as I remember, Ice Climber and Mr. Game & Watch were basically Sakurai's desire to include a bit of Nintendo History and not just the characters that are still relevant, G&W in particular has a curious anecdote of how he was created as far as I remember. Though it's very likely that if Sakurai had just a bit more time to work the next choices he could have worked could be precisely Wario (one of the few considered characters that wasn't inmediately dropped in the planning phase) and King Dedede (a character that already had a bit of work done in Smash 64).

Sheik in the other hand, is the weird one... of all the new original (not the clones) Melee characters, she seems to be the only one that was pretty much only included to fit a design niche, in both gameplay and visual appeal. Also, I can't help but think Sakurai likes ninjas.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You have to remember that back before Melee, Sheik was a popular request.

Sheik being added was about as strange as Bowser or Peach back then.

 

[SPEN18]

Smash 4 and Ultimate aren't all too comparable honestly. Ultimate had Everyone Is Here of course and that was a giant character reveal that was extremely hype. And other big hype updates as the 8/8 Direct with K.Rool and the Belmonts and the Echo Fighters. So Ultimate really dumped their character reveals at times, but the DLC characters where released in a more steady pacing.

The original prompts I was answering were more about the finished products themselves rather than the hype cycles leading up to them. But we can talk about the hype cycles, too.

EiH robbed us of getting a steady drip of vet reveals like in the leadup to 4, so they had to rely more on the big info dumps. Also, in retrospect 4 actually had a pretty good stream of hype newcomers throughout the base cycle: for ex. Mega Man early, Little Mac a bit later, and Shulk/Jr. near the end, and that's not even all. 4's base cycle was at least as good as Ult's IMO.

Melee did have a weird roster though. I can't see how Sakurai would opt for very strange choices as Ice Climbers, Sheik and Mr.Game & Watch over the likes of Diddy, Wario and King Dedede for example. Had they missed the boat, nobody would've missed them, but Diddy, Wario and Dedede where just about the biggest requests for Brawl.

Generally agree. I don't have a problem with Sakurai trying to represent older eras, but Ice Climbers and G&W specifically were odd choices to fill those quotas. At least Diddy, Wario, and Dedede went on to give Brawl a star-studded newcomer roster, even if they should have really been in Melee. I feel like those characters not getting into Melee also goes back to the game being rushed, though, perhaps more so than it goes back to ICs and G&W taking spots.
Don't forget about all the odd clone choices, either: for ex. Ganondorf's whole situation, the weirdness that is getting alternate versions of existing characters (YL, Doc). Even Falco could be seen as a weird addition, being much more decidedly a side/tertiary character than most of the rest of the roster.

 

[Opossum]

You have to remember that back before Melee, Sheik was a popular request.

Sheik being added was about as strange as Bowser or Peach back then.

I think part of the reason people forget about this is that the Melee Poll from which Sakurai drew requests for "Smash 2" tends to get far less publicity than the Brawl equivalent. Despite that, it also provides some interesting data despite its smaller sample size.

For example, there's the fact that when came to Zelda additions, Ganon/Ganondorf was the most requested, and then second place was a three way tie between Zelda, Sheik, and a Child Link (Young Link). The only one there who didn't make it into Melee was the third place pick, Darunia. However, it's notable that said placement is lower when compared to characters not from The Legend of Zelda, comparatively.

For the purpose of record keeping, these were the results of the Melee poll, sorted from highest to lowest votes. For the record, it seemingly only tracked those who got at least two votes. The poll was done via write-in and was done in 1999, prior to Melee's project plan being made.


1st place - Bowser - 169 votes
2nd place - Peach - 66 votes
3rd place - Wario - 65 votes
4th place - King Dedede - 46 votes
5th place - Ganon(dorf) - 36 votes
6th place tie - Mewtwo, 007 James Bond - 35 votes
8th place - Toad - 27 votes
9th place - Mew - 24 votes
10th place - Marth - 21 votes
11th place tie - Red, Mr. Saturn, "Someone from Fire Emblem", Banjo & Kazooie - 18 votes
15th place - Gooey - 17 votes
16th place tie - Diddy Kong, Sukapon - 15 votes
18th place - "Someone from Pokémon" - 12 votes
19th place tie - Meta Knight, Lugia - 11 votes
21st place - "Someone from Kirby" - 10 votes
22nd place tie - Koopa Troopa, Lip, Chocobo - 9 votes
25th place tie - Kamek, Zelda, Sheik, "Child Link", Meowth, Ogma, "Prince of Sablé or Prince Richard" - 8 votes
32nd place tie - Goomba, Falco, Raichu, Doraemon - 7 votes
36th place tie - Metroid, Poo, Foreman Spike - 6 votes
39th place tie - Geno, Mallow, Slippy, Bulbasaur, Marill, Togepi, Pit, Donbe & Hikari, the Marvelous protagonists (Jack, Dion, and Max), Bomberman - 5 votes
49th place tie - Wolf, Paula, "Someone Else from EarthBound", Samurai Goroh, Seliph, "Popo and Nana" (would become the Ice Climbers), Balloon Fighter, Crash Bandicoot - 4 votes
57th place tie - Baby Mario, Waddle Dee, Jeff, Starman, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man - 3 votes
63rd place tie - Darunia, Peppy, Sigurd, Leif, Blast Corps Robot, 006 Alec Trevelyan

 

[chocolatejr9]

I think part of the reason people forget about this is that the Melee Poll from which Sakurai drew requests for "Smash 2" tends to get far less publicity than the Brawl equivalent. Despite that, it also provides some interesting data despite its smaller sample size.

For example, there's the fact that when came to Zelda additions, Ganon/Ganondorf was the most requested, and then second place was a three way tie between Zelda, Sheik, and a Child Link (Young Link). The only one there who didn't make it into Melee was the third place pick, Darunia. However, it's notable that said placement is lower when compared to characters not from The Legend of Zelda, comparatively.

For the purpose of record keeping, these were the results of the Melee poll, sorted from highest to lowest votes. For the record, it seemingly only tracked those who got at least two votes. The poll was done via write-in and was done in 1999, prior to Melee's project plan being made.


1st place - Bowser - 169 votes
2nd place - Peach - 66 votes
3rd place - Wario - 65 votes
4th place - King Dedede - 46 votes
5th place - Ganon(dorf) - 36 votes
6th place tie - Mewtwo, 007 James Bond - 35 votes
8th place - Toad - 27 votes
9th place - Mew - 24 votes
10th place - Marth - 21 votes
11th place tie - Red, Mr. Saturn, "Someone from Fire Emblem", Banjo & Kazooie - 18 votes
15th place - Gooey - 17 votes
16th place tie - Diddy Kong, Sukapon - 15 votes
18th place - "Someone from Pokémon" - 12 votes
19th place tie - Meta Knight, Lugia - 11 votes
21st place - "Someone from Kirby" - 10 votes
22nd place tie - Koopa Troopa, Lip, Chocobo - 9 votes
25th place tie - Kamek, Zelda, Sheik, "Child Link", Meowth, Ogma, "Prince of Sablé or Prince Richard" - 8 votes
32nd place tie - Goomba, Falco, Raichu, Doraemon - 7 votes
36th place tie - Metroid, Poo, Foreman Spike - 6 votes
39th place tie - Geno, Mallow, Slippy, Bulbasaur, Marill, Togepi, Pit, Donbe & Hikari, the Marvelous protagonists (Jack, Dion, and Max), Bomberman - 5 votes
49th place tie - Wolf, Paula, "Someone Else from EarthBound", Samurai Goroh, Seliph, "Popo and Nana" (would become the Ice Climbers), Balloon Fighter, Crash Bandicoot - 4 votes
57th place tie - Baby Mario, Waddle Dee, Jeff, Starman, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man - 3 votes
63rd place tie - Darunia, Peppy, Sigurd, Leif, Blast Corps Robot, 006 Alec Trevelyan

Welp, better start the Darunia movement...

 

[HyperSomari64]

Welp, better start the Darunia movement...

Not before i campaign for Doraemon in Smash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

By now of course am of the knowledge of WHY Sheik, Ice Climbers and Mr.Game & Watch where chosen, I just still think they're weird additions. Because frankly they simply are. Sheik maybe less so because of the way she was implemented and of course Ocarina of Time. Yet it was obvious Ganondorf had the most requests out of the Zelda characters, I think that he should've gotten the unique treatment before Sheik at least.

Chosing for more popular and well known characters would be ideal to me. But it wasn't even the case of Smash 64 where Ness and Captain Falcon where also Literal Who's in the eyes of many. So obscure characters where always part of Smash, it just was way more obvious in Melee I feel. Cause they added a lot of characters but there where still so many big names missing in action.

It's all relative you know.

 

[Laniv]

I think part of the reason people forget about this is that the Melee Poll from which Sakurai drew requests for "Smash 2" tends to get far less publicity than the Brawl equivalent. Despite that, it also provides some interesting data despite its smaller sample size.

For example, there's the fact that when came to Zelda additions, Ganon/Ganondorf was the most requested, and then second place was a three way tie between Zelda, Sheik, and a Child Link (Young Link). The only one there who didn't make it into Melee was the third place pick, Darunia. However, it's notable that said placement is lower when compared to characters not from The Legend of Zelda, comparatively.

For the purpose of record keeping, these were the results of the Melee poll, sorted from highest to lowest votes. For the record, it seemingly only tracked those who got at least two votes. The poll was done via write-in and was done in 1999, prior to Melee's project plan being made.


1st place - Bowser - 169 votes
2nd place - Peach - 66 votes
3rd place - Wario - 65 votes
4th place - King Dedede - 46 votes
5th place - Ganon(dorf) - 36 votes
6th place tie - Mewtwo, 007 James Bond - 35 votes
8th place - Toad - 27 votes
9th place - Mew - 24 votes
10th place - Marth - 21 votes
11th place tie - Red, Mr. Saturn, "Someone from Fire Emblem", Banjo & Kazooie - 18 votes
15th place - Gooey - 17 votes
16th place tie - Diddy Kong, Sukapon - 15 votes
18th place - "Someone from Pokémon" - 12 votes
19th place tie - Meta Knight, Lugia - 11 votes
21st place - "Someone from Kirby" - 10 votes
22nd place tie - Koopa Troopa, Lip, Chocobo - 9 votes
25th place tie - Kamek, Zelda, Sheik, "Child Link", Meowth, Ogma, "Prince of Sablé or Prince Richard" - 8 votes
32nd place tie - Goomba, Falco, Raichu, Doraemon - 7 votes
36th place tie - Metroid, Poo, Foreman Spike - 6 votes
39th place tie - Geno, Mallow, Slippy, Bulbasaur, Marill, Togepi, Pit, Donbe & Hikari, the Marvelous protagonists (Jack, Dion, and Max), Bomberman - 5 votes
49th place tie - Wolf, Paula, "Someone Else from EarthBound", Samurai Goroh, Seliph, "Popo and Nana" (would become the Ice Climbers), Balloon Fighter, Crash Bandicoot - 4 votes
57th place tie - Baby Mario, Waddle Dee, Jeff, Starman, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man - 3 votes
63rd place tie - Darunia, Peppy, Sigurd, Leif, Blast Corps Robot, 006 Alec Trevelyan

Toad being the highest ranked eligible character that still isn't in yet

 

[fogbadge]

8th place - Toad - 27 votes

ah those were the days

 

[Diddy Kong]

Toad being the highest ranked eligible character that still isn't in yet

He really should've been in Brawl, or even Melee yeah. It's sad, but apparently his faith was sealed once he became part of Peach's move set.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I never really considered Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch to be weird choices. I thought since it was a Nintendo crossover, any character made by Nintendo was possible.

 

[Opossum]

I never really considered Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch to be weird choices. I thought since it was a Nintendo crossover, any character made by Nintendo was possible.

I mean, they are weird, but intentionally so. They were specifically intended as a throwback and a surprise, respectively, making each of them "weird" additions by definition.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Ice Climbers and Game & Watch almost feel more weird in hindsight. At the time there wasn't enough of precedent to say which Nintendo characters should be in beyond the obvious ones so in a lot of ways such out of left field picks were accepted as part of the blowout Melee was doing. They'd get a lot more raised eyebrows now, especially given the 20 years since SSBM's release hasn't seen much done with them outside Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ice Climbers were a bit of an arbitrary NES pick.

But I'd argue Mr. Game and Watch isn't a strange pick. Game and Watches were very common in the early 80s and Game and Watch galleries had been released by the time Melee was released. The IP should have been on people's radar.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Somewhat related, but stupid question: did Game & Watch games have any sort of female sprites? I'd always wondered if a hypothetical "Mrs. Game & Watch" could be added to Smash, mostly as an Echo to her male counterpart.

Then again, if by some miracle G&W ever GOT a second rep, it'd probably be the Wolf or something...

 

[Ivander]

Somewhat related, but stupid question: did Game & Watch games have any sort of female sprites? I'd always wondered if a hypothetical "Mrs. Game & Watch" could be added to Smash, mostly as an Echo to her male counterpart.

The female character in Oil Panic, one of the bystanders you can accidentally spill oil on, which is in the Flatzone stage, where the bystanders "counter" you if you attack them. Otherwise, I don't know of any other female sprites in the Game & Watch games. Most likely, A Ms. Game & Watch would have to use entirely original sprites not in the Game & Watch games.

 

[Pupp135]

I think part of the reason people forget about this is that the Melee Poll from which Sakurai drew requests for "Smash 2" tends to get far less publicity than the Brawl equivalent. Despite that, it also provides some interesting data despite its smaller sample size.

For example, there's the fact that when came to Zelda additions, Ganon/Ganondorf was the most requested, and then second place was a three way tie between Zelda, Sheik, and a Child Link (Young Link). The only one there who didn't make it into Melee was the third place pick, Darunia. However, it's notable that said placement is lower when compared to characters not from The Legend of Zelda, comparatively.

For the purpose of record keeping, these were the results of the Melee poll, sorted from highest to lowest votes. For the record, it seemingly only tracked those who got at least two votes. The poll was done via write-in and was done in 1999, prior to Melee's project plan being made.


1st place - Bowser - 169 votes
2nd place - Peach - 66 votes
3rd place - Wario - 65 votes
4th place - King Dedede - 46 votes
5th place - Ganon(dorf) - 36 votes
6th place tie - Mewtwo, 007 James Bond - 35 votes
8th place - Toad - 27 votes
9th place - Mew - 24 votes
10th place - Marth - 21 votes
11th place tie - Red, Mr. Saturn, "Someone from Fire Emblem", Banjo & Kazooie - 18 votes
15th place - Gooey - 17 votes
16th place tie - Diddy Kong, Sukapon - 15 votes
18th place - "Someone from Pokémon" - 12 votes
19th place tie - Meta Knight, Lugia - 11 votes
21st place - "Someone from Kirby" - 10 votes
22nd place tie - Koopa Troopa, Lip, Chocobo - 9 votes
25th place tie - Kamek, Zelda, Sheik, "Child Link", Meowth, Ogma, "Prince of Sablé or Prince Richard" - 8 votes
32nd place tie - Goomba, Falco, Raichu, Doraemon - 7 votes
36th place tie - Metroid, Poo, Foreman Spike - 6 votes
39th place tie - Geno, Mallow, Slippy, Bulbasaur, Marill, Togepi, Pit, Donbe & Hikari, the Marvelous protagonists (Jack, Dion, and Max), Bomberman - 5 votes
49th place tie - Wolf, Paula, "Someone Else from EarthBound", Samurai Goroh, Seliph, "Popo and Nana" (would become the Ice Climbers), Balloon Fighter, Crash Bandicoot - 4 votes
57th place tie - Baby Mario, Waddle Dee, Jeff, Starman, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man - 3 votes
63rd place tie - Darunia, Peppy, Sigurd, Leif, Blast Corps Robot, 006 Alec Trevelyan

I’ve always found the Smash 2 poll and Melee’s unique lineup to be interesting. It is funny to see Gooey ranked higher than Meta Knight. Also, the absence of Charizard, Ridley, and K Rool feels crazy while looking at this list, especially with how the latter two were big requests since the Brawl era, and it’s cool to see that obscure choices like Icies received votes.

Overall, I do like Melee’s line up where it has both mainstream choices who ranked highly (Bowser, Peach, Marth, Mewtwo) and those who were more unexpected (Zelda/Sheik as a duo, Icies, Game and Watch). While the transformation gimmick ages badly for Zelda, it was a cool idea at the time, and I feel that Zelda probably wouldn’t have joined until Brawl without the gimmick despite her prominence to her series.

A Melee newcomer roster that just focused on heavy hitters (Bowser, Peach, Wario, Diddy, unique Ganon(dorf), Marth, Dedede, and Mewtwo) would’ve also been fun to play around with, but I’m happy that Melee gave me a few characters that I find fun to play as (Primarily Icies and Zelda, but Sheik and Marth are also fun).

 

[Wonder Smash]

I mean, they are weird, but intentionally so. They were specifically intended as a throwback and a surprise, respectively, making each of them "weird" additions by definition.

Not really. Like I said, since it was a Nintendo crossover, I felt that every Nintendo character (both old and new) were eligible, so I was not that surprised to see the Ice Climbers get in. Plus, I already knew about them from The Official Nintendo Player's Guide. Mr. Game & Watch was completely unexpected, yeah but I had Game & Watch Gallery 2 prior to Melee and I knew it was made by Nintendo, so not even he was "weird" to me.

The only thing that was weird to me was no Banjo & Kazooie. That's really it.

 

[Opossum]

I’ve always found the Smash 2 poll and Melee’s unique lineup to be interesting. It is funny to see Gooey ranked higher than Meta Knight. Also, the absence of Charizard, Ridley, and K Rool feels crazy while looking at this list, especially with how the latter two were big requests since the Brawl era, and it’s cool to see that obscure choices like Icies received votes.

Overall, I do like Melee’s line up where it has both mainstream choices who ranked highly (Bowser, Peach, Marth, Mewtwo) and those who were more unexpected (Zelda/Sheik as a duo, Icies, Game and Watch). While the transformation gimmick ages badly for Zelda, it was a cool idea at the time, and I feel that Zelda probably wouldn’t have joined until Brawl without the gimmick despite her prominence to her series.

A Melee newcomer roster that just focused on heavy hitters (Bowser, Peach, Wario, Diddy, unique Ganon(dorf), Marth, Dedede, and Mewtwo) would’ve also been fun to play around with, but I’m happy that Melee gave me a few characters that I find fun to play as (Primarily Icies and Zelda, but Sheik and Marth are also fun).

With Ridley and K. Rool I can understand. Ridley's requests have always been a very western thing (which this poll also kinda shows is a thing for Metroid in general...the only Metroid character, a Literal Metroid, was listed in the "Miscellaneous NES/SNES" section with the likes of Sukapon and Lip instead of its own series), so not having a showing in a Japanese poll makes sense. Similarly, Little Mac is another historically western-requested character that failed to show up there. And with King K. Rool, it was mostly due to Diddy syphoning votes, I imagine. It's the same reason you see requests for Banjo & Kazooie but not Gruntilda, that kind of thing.

But Charizard not showing up there is genuinely very surprising, considering it was a massively popular Pokémon even back then.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I think Brawl was better, and 4 was on par with Ult.

How so? especially when 4 has less content than ULT

Respectfully disagree. WoL, when it comes down to it, is a glorified Event Match; while that comparison doesn't do justice to the expansiveness of the WoL mode, I find the core loop to be pretty underwhelming in comparison to SSE. SSE was a much better singleplayer mode for its time, and did a much better job of selling the "allstar" mantra for the franchise.

What's wrong with Event Matches? And have heavily disagree on SSE. The mode doesn't really anything note-worthy other than cutscenes. I don't see the allstar mantra you are talking about

Most of the variation in the "spirit" battles I find to be pretty surface-level, and those battles are crafted more for cute references than actual gameplay value. A lot of them just make you feel like you're playing a worse VS mode. The "spirits" have more gameplay integration than the stickers, but I'm not really a fan of either; the whole "equip collectibles to give yourself buffs" thing I was never too keen on in Smash, and the level grinding for "spirits" I found to be mostly unfun, even though I like a lot of grindy RPGs.

But cute references are the gameplay value. The references help to serve the way spirit battles are play which gives them variety and keep things a bit fresh.
Ironically, I don't really a huge fan of grinding but I enjoy grinding and collecting spirits in WoL.

Weird. Spirits should've at least came with descriptions tho.

Ultimate Smash Game in the sense that it is the best Smash game? Absolutely.

What makes it the best Smash game for you?