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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Swamp Sensei

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With Ridley and K. Rool I can understand. Ridley's requests have always been a very western thing (which this poll also kinda shows is a thing for Metroid in general...the only Metroid character, a Literal Metroid, was listed in the "Miscellaneous NES/SNES" section with the likes of Sukapon and Lip instead of its own series), so not having a showing in a Japanese poll makes sense. Similarly, Little Mac is another historically western-requested character that failed to show up there. And with King K. Rool, it was mostly due to Diddy syphoning votes, I imagine. It's the same reason you see requests for Banjo & Kazooie but not Gruntilda, that kind of thing.

But Charizard not showing up there is genuinely very surprising, considering it was a massively popular Pokémon even back then.
Charizard not having many votes may have been due to its role as a Pokeball Pokemon.

Upgrading assists may not have been considered much.
 

Sid-cada

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What's wrong with Event Matches?
While there's nothing inherently wrong with event matches, the Spirit Battles in Ultimate are very samey compared to event matches in prior games.

Most of the Spirit Battles allow you to pick any character to win, and don't particularly care about how you do as long as you do win a match.

Event matches tended to offer more variety in ways to win, besides just beating the opponent.

For example, from the past there were challenges such as:
A race as Kirby to lower your percentage to 0 by eating food.
Prevent the Game and Watches from landing on your ship as Falco.
Using an unlimited number of Packman's Final Smash, get the 7650 score by eating your opponents.
Being allowed to only KO your opponent by getting a 9 on Game and Watch's Judge.
As Duck Hunt, hit all 10 ducks on the Duck Hunt stage.
Destroy all breakable terrain on Skyworld as Pit.
As Jigglypuff, get all three of your opponents to sleep at the same time.
As Peach, use Lip's Stick to plant a flower on all of your opponents.
etc.

Even then, a large number of Spirits exist to turn off the hazards in Spirit Battles. How many Hazard-canceling spirits are there? Apparently, as of now, a little over 5%. In other words, 5% of spirits are dedicated to removing the gimmicks of certain fights, ruining the point of them. Consider also that there are some spirits that have hazardous floors with no platforms, meaning you have to have a matching spirit to stop it or else likely fail.

Frankly, to me, most Spirit Battles feel too similar to plain-old Vs. matches. They never managed to grab me, and I ended up never touching them.
 

SPEN18

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How so? especially when 4 has less content than ULT
I mean, for its time I think 4 compares fine with Ult, and Brawl compares even better. 4 had a wider newcomer selection than Ult, for example, and the singleplayer was at least as good. What does Ult have over 4 besides just a greater number of characters and stages, which you'd expect from most sequels anyway? WoL, better stage builder (which wasn't even there at launch, and that IMO is pretty awful), and decidedly more minor improvements elsewhere. And again, even though there are many more characters and stages, there aren't as many new characters and stages, so it doesn't feel like as big of a step forward from 4 as it could have been.

What's wrong with Event Matches?
Nothing is wrong with them as a cute little side mode with minimal effort put into it. But as the single carrier of your whole singleplayer they are vastly underwhelming.

The mode doesn't really anything note-worthy other than cutscenes. I don't see the allstar mantra you are talking about
The basic platforming mechanics of SSE are not, like, mega-ingenious on their own; but SSE being a literal whole platformer inside of a fighting game is much more impressive. The platforming, that is, the adventuring from one place to another while facing off against foes, crafted a narrative that was IMO very well-integrated with the cutscenes. It created a reason for all the Nintendo stars to be together in a much more expansive way than had been attempted before; unlike WoL, each character had a role in the plot that was unique to them and their abilities/personalities, which is difficult to do for a massive crossover in game format (i.e. with only a limited number of seconds of nigh voiceless cutscene exposition to explain the plot; the Brawl cutscenes are necessarily but still commendably efficient in terms of action and exposition per second). And the allstar crossover is sold much better since the actual allstars, the PCs, are more front-and-center; WoL I'd argue focuses more on all the characters with only auxiliary representation (and it's good to give those characters some spotlight, but it doesn't sell the idea that the main PC roster is indeed that back-of-the-box "allstar lineup").
WoL does some of the above but not nearly as ambitiously or expansively. And, crucially, as I explained the core loop of SSE is much better than WoL's; SSE flows just like a real exploratory platformer would, while WoL is just a series of gimmicked VS matches. The scenarios in SSE just feel more "real" to play because they have more fleshed-out context besides just a play-pretend match against a cosplayer.

But cute references are the gameplay value. The references help to serve the way spirit battles are play which gives them variety and keep things a bit fresh.
But that can't be the only gameplay value the matches have. And as others have pointed out, a large quantity of the matches can be trivialized entirely. Besides, if we're comparing it to Brawl, then I'll point out that Brawl went far beyond cute references by coming up with real scenarios in which Fox and Diddy Kong would have to team up against Rayquaza and Bowser, or explaining how Pikachu could make Samus's fight against Ridley a little more doable.

Spirits should've at least came with descriptions tho.
The descriptions are a tradeoff, though; if they had descriptions then there wouldn't be as many of them in the game. Which makes the total count of them less impressive relative to the collectible counts for Brawl and 4.
 

Diddy Kong

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With Ridley and K. Rool I can understand. Ridley's requests have always been a very western thing (which this poll also kinda shows is a thing for Metroid in general...the only Metroid character, a Literal Metroid, was listed in the "Miscellaneous NES/SNES" section with the likes of Sukapon and Lip instead of its own series), so not having a showing in a Japanese poll makes sense. Similarly, Little Mac is another historically western-requested character that failed to show up there. And with King K. Rool, it was mostly due to Diddy syphoning votes, I imagine. It's the same reason you see requests for Banjo & Kazooie but not Gruntilda, that kind of thing.

But Charizard not showing up there is genuinely very surprising, considering it was a massively popular Pokémon even back then.
The DKC fanbase indeed was focussed on getting Diddy in first, which does explain why it took so long for K.Rool to make his entry in Smash. Shamefully, the same happened with K.Rool and Dixie during Smash 4 and Ultimate, Dixie was more expected thus deemed "boring" and the K.Rool support was way louder, and most of them rallied behind Banjo afterwards (it also does explain the DKC characters appearing in his reveal trailer, K.Rool really had no good reason to be there).

Reminder for all DKC fans now that we should focus on getting both Dixie and Cranky, and possibly Funky as a DK Echo Fighter bonus.
 

Opossum

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The DKC fanbase indeed was focussed on getting Diddy in first, which does explain why it took so long for K.Rool to make his entry in Smash. Shamefully, the same happened with K.Rool and Dixie during Smash 4 and Ultimate, Dixie was more expected thus deemed "boring" and the K.Rool support was way louder, and most of them rallied behind Banjo afterwards (it also does explain the DKC characters appearing in his reveal trailer, K.Rool really had no good reason to be there).

Reminder for all DKC fans now that we should focus on getting both Dixie and Cranky, and possibly Funky as a DK Echo Fighter bonus.
Imagine if they go full meta and have Funky as a DK echo but with a Flame Runner side special (based on the Wario Bike) instead of the Headbutt lol.
 

Nabbitfan730

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While there's nothing inherently wrong with event matches, the Spirit Battles in Ultimate are very samey compared to event matches in prior games.

Most of the Spirit Battles allow you to pick any character to win, and don't particularly care about how you do as long as you do win a match.
I don't really see that as downside. Gives players the freedom to use the characters they feel best with instead of being forced to be stuck as with any specific character they aren't as good with


Event matches tended to offer more variety in ways to win, besides just beating the opponent.

For example, from the past there were challenges such as:
A race as Kirby to lower your percentage to 0 by eating food.
Prevent the Game and Watches from landing on your ship as Falco.
Using an unlimited number of Packman's Final Smash, get the 7650 score by eating your opponents.
Being allowed to only KO your opponent by getting a 9 on Game and Watch's Judge.
As Duck Hunt, hit all 10 ducks on the Duck Hunt stage.
Destroy all breakable terrain on Skyworld as Pit.
As Jigglypuff, get all three of your opponents to sleep at the same time.
As Peach, use Lip's Stick to plant a flower on all of your opponents.
etc.


Even then, a large number of Spirits exist to turn off the hazards in Spirit Battles. How many Hazard-canceling spirits are there? Apparently, as of now, a little over 5%. In other words, 5% of spirits are dedicated to removing the gimmicks of certain fights, ruining the point of them. Consider also that there are some spirits that have hazardous floors with no platforms, meaning you have to have a matching spirit to stop it or else likely fail.
Yeah they give variety to wins but nost of those ways were kinda annoying and irritating to complete at times. I prefer to keep it simple in just beating the the oppenent. Also the ways to beat them aren't always simple like with Dr Wily, Ness Father, Wily Capsule. You still need to be smart with it too.

Also those harzards-removing spirits are optional. You can still fights battles without them and still win. Even when I use said spirits I make sure the power level is still low than the puppet fighter I'm fighting.


4 had a wider newcomer selection than Ult,
I can't disagree there, Ultimate Roster Picks and Choices are pretty weak compared to Smash 4. Too much focus on advertising and shill picks then actual picking characters that would fit the game. Guess that what happens when Nintendo is the one picking.


The basic platforming mechanics of SSE are not, like, mega-ingenious on their own; but SSE being a literal whole platformer inside of a fighting game is much more impressive.

And, crucially, as I explained the core loop of SSE is much better than WoL's; SSE flows just like a real exploratory platformer would, while WoL is just a series of gimmicked VS matches.
When said platforming comes with really bad level design and terrible brawl controls, I couldn't disagree more with that statement. Being a "real exporatory plaftormer" doesn't do anything to change that.

Also Smash Bros is primarily about the battles so isn't a downfall to see that ulitizes in it's adventure mode. With those "gimmicked VS matches" are lot more fun to play is it and ultizing Smash's strengths a whole lot more.

The platforming, that is, the adventuring from one place to another while facing off against foes, crafted a narrative that was IMO very well-integrated with the cutscenes. It created a reason for all the Nintendo stars to be together in a much more expansive way than had been attempted before unlike WoL
Except it has been done before with Melee and from the looks of it with much better execution.

It doesn't help either that the world you adventuring through was really drab and uninspired. As if they dumped the characters in a UE4 demo and called it a day. Nothing of World of Trophies screams Nintendo-All Stars other than the characters within it and a few objects here and there.

As least with World of Light, the world actually looks and feels like a Crossover World of Nintendo itself from the design of world being adventuring map being much more vibrant with colors, Spirit Battles, Puzzles, Dungeons, Sacred Land, Sub-Areas, Bosses etc.

I'll point out that Brawl went far beyond cute references by coming up with real scenarios in which Fox and Diddy Kong would have to team up against Rayquaza and Bowser, or explaining how Pikachu could make Samus's fight against Ridley a little more doable.
That's great but like i said before, outside that crafted narrative, SSE falls really short.


The descriptions are a tradeoff, though; if they had descriptions then there wouldn't be as many of them in the game. Which makes the total count of them less impressive relative to the collectible counts for Brawl and 4.
Not really, Even with descriptions, Spirits are a lot more easily to implement than Trophies so the collectible counts would be relatively not too different.
 

Chuderz

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Spirits is the ultimate event mode for sure. I personally really enjoyed my run through though I wouldn't do it again to be honest because you don't get anything for it other than spirits and while I like spirits too I'd prefer palette swaps for stages/costumes and maybe even unique legendary costumes, victory screens, blast animations (Multiversus), epic taunts and the like. Something a little more substantial to actually work towards.

I feel like I had a pretty cool proposal for single-player content. Basically it's Classic-run/Adventure-Mode with a little sprinkle of Subspace with the return of BTT and BTP for good measure and we even throw in a quick Home-Run Contest section just to make the run feel even more extensive and more diverse. Also maybe we could do both this and spirits? Have my idea represent a character's individual journey in Smash and have Spirits represent the overarching threat to the entire Smash cast as a collective.

 
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HyperSomari64

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I made this realization in respect of the September Nintendo Direct.
Remember when a character is revealed for Smash, the trailer is one disguising as another game? (namely Inkling's and Isabelle's)
Whait if a trailer for idk... Tokyo Mirage Sessions 2 was revealed in the form of disguising as a Smash reveal. Think about it: It starts as a Production I.G.-animated sequence where Mario and Link (or any other character in the Ultimate's roster) are fighting, then it's revealed that it was just a person playing it on a Switch, and TMS 2 is announced.
 

dream1ng

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I made this realization in respect of the September Nintendo Direct.
Remember when a character is revealed for Smash, the trailer is one disguising as another game? (namely Inkling's and Isabelle's)
Whait if a trailer for idk... Tokyo Mirage Sessions 2 was revealed in the form of disguising as a Smash reveal. Think about it: It starts as a Production I.G.-animated sequence where Mario and Link (or any other character in the Ultimate's roster) are fighting, then it's revealed that it was just a person playing it on a Switch, and TMS 2 is announced.
Yes I'm sure people would love to believe there's more Smash only to have the rug pulled out from under them that it's actually a niche FE spinoff.

No chance that backfires.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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The only way that fakeout could work is if we were still getting Smash characters as DLC, the actual Smash trailer followed shortly afterward, and such a swerve was for a game a bit more popular than the one that actually turned off some fans from both series it was crossing over. Super Mario Odyssey 2 would be a huge game to announce and even then I still wouldn't disguise its reveal with a faux Smash trailer, let alone trying it with TMS2.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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So, you guys think we'll get a direct this week?
 

Idon

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I made this realization in respect of the September Nintendo Direct.
Remember when a character is revealed for Smash, the trailer is one disguising as another game? (namely Inkling's and Isabelle's)
Whait if a trailer for idk... Tokyo Mirage Sessions 2 was revealed in the form of disguising as a Smash reveal. Think about it: It starts as a Production I.G.-animated sequence where Mario and Link (or any other character in the Ultimate's roster) are fighting, then it's revealed that it was just a person playing it on a Switch, and TMS 2 is announced.
That would kill me twice over. "Damn, we're really gonna get very SMT adjacent thing except SMT in this game"
 

Troykv

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So, you guys think we'll get a direct this week?
Well... I'm personally thinking is gonna be next week considering that otherwise is gonna conflict with Splatoon 3's release window, but I hope it's already this week, I'm so excited to see what is going on.
 

chocolatejr9

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So, you guys think we'll get a direct this week?
The leaks said the 12th, right? Maybe not this week, but I'd say that's a good time to have one. Also, for anybody not keeping up with leaks, the possible reveals include:

  • Wind Waker/Twilight Princess HD ports
  • BOTW2
  • Metroid Prime remaster
  • Skyrim Anniversary Edition
  • It Takes Two
  • POSSIBLY more Gamecube remasters

Anything I'm missing?
 

Geno Boost

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Star Hill. Why do you ask?
curious if you had to choose 5 puzzle reps to be playable in smash who would you guys pick? So far we only have :ultdoc:

There's something I've been meaning to talk about on here, specifically regarding 1st party picks. There was a piece of fanart I came across recently, regarding a person's picks for Smash Ultimate, and it made me wonder... are first-parties really that low on the totem pole these days?

By the way, this was the person's picks:
View attachment 358135
I made this lol
I spent the last month before miiverse shut down on drawing this but I had to do it today half of the picks would have been someone else
It’s really outdated looking at it now
 
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dream1ng

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So, you guys think we'll get a direct this week?
Directs never happen early when they can instead happen by the time people start losing hope.

So probably next week, once the shadow of TGS starts looming.

The leaks said the 12th, right?
I don't think any leaks said the 12th, that's a Monday.

Maybe not this week, but I'd say that's a good time to have one. Also, for anybody not keeping up with leaks, the possible reveals include:

  • Wind Waker/Twilight Princess HD ports
  • BOTW2
  • Metroid Prime remaster
  • Skyrim Anniversary Edition
  • It Takes Two
  • POSSIBLY more Gamecube remasters

Anything I'm missing?
It's not really a leak but NateDrake said he's expecting the DK game to either be at this Direct or the next one.
 

Chuderz

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If that's the list this is EXACTLY why Nintendo needs to up their production capacity. Wtf have they been doing all this time? Splatoon 3 and BOTW2 and that's it? Sure we'll also likely get reveals for Wave 3 of MK8DX and Wave 2 of Strikers but wholly molly that's a whole lot of nothing. The Odyssey team better be working on something incredible. Sure the ports are nice but they should be supplementary not the main attraction. Also Metroid Prime Remaster being just the 1st game is a blatant insult to their audience but we all know they'll get away with it. I also think it's a mistake considering a trilogy would be the perfect lead-up to Prime 4.

I'm just hoping for some Superstars DLC at this point.
 
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Gengar84

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I have a question to ask of the thread.

Do you believe Smash Ultimate as a GAME ( not the hype culture, speculation, nor promotion material or "the ride") lives up to its title?

Do you believe that Smash Ultimate is truly the Ultimate Smash Game?

If so or not, why?

Be honest with you answer
I think Ultimate is the best Smash game in many areas but it falls flat in others. The biggest omission I really miss is a substantial single player or co-op mode akin to Subspace Emissary from Brawl. While SSE wasn’t perfect, I definitely think it was a great idea and still has a ton of potential. My brother and I still had a blast playing it despite its flaws.

Beyond SSE, I’d also love to see other modes such as Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish make a return. Those modes, along with the Adventure mode added a lot to the single player experience to the older Smash game. Stage Builder could also use various improvements. I love what we have with it but there are many areas that could still be improved.

My last disappointment with the game is the way they handled the majority of new stages. I feel a lot of them are too boring and are basically just Battlefield variants with pretty backgrounds. There are some exceptions that are actually really cool like Mishima Dojo and Spiral Mountain but most are too basic for my liking. I feel like Smash 64 and Melee got the stage formula just right for the majority of stages where most had really interesting layouts but didn’t get overly crazy with gimmicks to the point where it became annoying or distracting. I think Smash 4 went too heavy on the gimmicks while Ultimate pulled too far back in the other direction.

Still, the gameplay, roster, and huge selection of stages put Ultimate ahead of every other Smash when it comes to the main game itself in my opinion. That’s why I’d love to build on what we already have to try to fill in the areas where Ultimate is lacking to truly live up to its name.
 
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Megadoomer

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curious if you had to choose 5 puzzle reps to be playable in smash who would you guys pick? So far we only have :ultdoc:
It depends on how you define a puzzle game, but I'd go with Dr. Eggman (Mean Bean Machine counts!), Professor Layton, Chell from Portal, Bub and Bob from Bubble Bobble/Bust A Move (either individually or as an Ice Climbers style duo), and Captain Toad.
 
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Troykv

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I'd put more stock in next week. Puts it right before TGS which is nice. Will also let them hand wave away from having to cover Spaltoon 3 in depth at all.
Yeah it makes more sense, releasing the Direct this week is gonna stole Splatoon 3 of it's thunder, and in fact, Nintendo of America is probably well aware of the interest for Nintendo Directs, so they get a lot of free advertising in Splatoon 3's release via interactions.
 

SPEN18

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also guys that Melee poll looks really tiny...it's interesting to see but idk how seriously it should be taken.
When said platforming comes with really bad level design and terrible brawl controls
While there are some criticisms to be made in the level design department, I don't think it's anywhere near ruining the experience. Also, Brawl controlled fine for its time; I hardly heard anyone other than more hardcore players complain about Brawl's controls, and I feel the anti-casual criticism of Brawl is overblown.

Except it has been done before with Melee and from the looks of it with much better execution.
I said Brawl did it way more expansively and with a lot more context depth in the scenarios. Melee's adventure mode is closer to a tech demo or proof-of-concept when put next to SSE. The Melee levels are more one-dimensional and are more akin to mini-challenges than full exploratory platformer levels. I don't see anyplace where Melee's mode succeeds in execution any more than SSE does.

It doesn't help either that the world you adventuring through was really drab and uninspired. As if they dumped the characters in a UE4 demo and called it a day. Nothing of World of Trophies screams Nintendo-All Stars other than the characters within it and a few objects here and there.

As least with World of Light, the world actually looks and feels like a Crossover World of Nintendo itself from the design of world being adventuring map being much more vibrant with colors, Spirit Battles, Puzzles, Dungeons, Sacred Land, Sub-Areas, Bosses etc.
What else could be asked of the backgrounds and platform textures? They're semi-realistic aesthetics with Wii-level graphical power, in line with the rest of Brawl. It's not like every backdrop and locale is brimming with maximum creativity or filled with tons of cute references (though I might add that Smash as a whole was less keen on throwing the cute references around back then), but they do the job just fine in terms of providing a believable setting in which all these characters could come together.

WoL's map isn't any less generic than SSE's. The more vibrant colors are just a product of Ult's aesthetic direction as a whole, just as SSE's map reflects the more semi-realistic direction that Brawl was taking. If anything I'd say WoL's setting is less developed than SSE's.

Not really, Even with descriptions, Spirits are a lot more easily to implement than Trophies so the collectible counts would be relatively not too different.
Yes, the "spirits" would still be easier to implement than the trophies even with descriptions, but adding descriptions for the former would close the gap by a noticeable amount.
 

SPEN18

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Nintendo Direct? Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later. Not really buying most of the rumors but we'll see.
 
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JOJONumber691

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I can't disagree there, Ultimate Roster Picks and Choices are pretty weak compared to Smash 4. Too much focus on advertising and shill picks then actual picking characters that would fit the game. Guess that what happens when Nintendo is the one picking.


When said platforming comes with really bad level design and terrible brawl controls, I couldn't disagree more with that statement. Being a "real exporatory plaftormer" doesn't do anything to change that.
Yoooooooo! Finally someone who agrees with me that Brawl controls Bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

smashkirby

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I made this lol
I spent the last month before miiverse shut down on drawing this but I had to do it today half of the picks would have been someone else
It’s really outdated looking at it now
Well, all the same, I have to commend your picks! Admittedly, this is bias on my part as someone who loves Nintendo characters, but as one of the few folks here who supports Pilotwings getting a character in Smash, it's nice to see Lark (and Ibis!) here! Not to mention folks like Kururin, Hakkun, Ryota and Akari Hayami, and Kensuke Kimachi (among many others).

Pretty amazing how a lot of these guys made it into Ultimate via Spirits...
 

HyperSomari64

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Even if they can only nab Eggman from the Sonic series, a villain as iconic as he is should have a more prominent role.
The only problem is that Eggman's design is kinda cartoony. And i'm not sure if Monolith is brave enough to bringing back his realistic Sonic 06 design.
 

HyperSomari64

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Other cartoony characters i wanna see in project X Zone III is the Puyo Puyo cast (Unless they use the Madou Monogatari designs)
 

osby

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Remember that crazy rule in the Project X Zone series where it only accepted human, humanoid or human-like characters?

Well, Eggman is a human. At least make him a secret boss.
I don't think it was a crazy rule, it was just simple art design coherence. When 99% of the cast are made of characters who look like they can reasonably be part of the same universe, there's no reason to throw in scrimblos just because.

Also, Sonic fans can survive letting other SEGA characters get the spotlight in a crossover for once, they still have 5000 others.
 
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