Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Laniv]

The real question:

Would Tom Nook be considered the villain rep for the Animal Crossing series?

If anyone could be a villain rep for Animal Crossing it'd be Crazy Redd. Thus, he will be included as a Tom Nook echo.

 

[ZelDan]

At the end of the day, whether an Ultimate port happens or an entirely new game happens, either way sacrifices have to be made, whether it be sacrificing stuff we already have with Ultimate, or sacrificng stuff we COULD have gotten in a new game had Nintendo/Sakurai not had to focus on bringing all old content back with a port.

And which one of these things sounds more/less appealing or which one is the worst sacrifice for one individual will likely depend on how much of the older content you actually genuinely care about, how much stuff you'd still want to see get in Smash that didn't get in Ultimate, how much fun you still have playing Ultimate, etc etc.

For me, I'm not going to pretend I personally give a **** about every character or franchise in Smash, there are still a bunch of characters/franchises I'd love to see made playable in Smash, and while Ultimate is still fun for me to play, it lost that special "big new game" magic a long time ago, and looking past the roster, I think Ultimate is definitely a flawed game; a good game, but a pretty flawed game, and I think there is so much missed potential behind Ultimate.

So yeah, I'm in the camp that actually finds the idea of a brand new Smash game more exciting-sounding than "Super Smash Ultimate again but with a few new things sprinkled on top."

 

[skylanders fan]

I came up with a roster of 60 fighters (more than smash 4 but smaller than Ultimate to account for newcomers and echos and just trying to do it was a pain I still can’t see Nintendo cutting a roster to this small.

And I still don’t like the amount of cuts I had to make like I just can’t see Nintendo wanting to cut even that much

 

[Geno Boost]

Here is a question how would you improve the original 12 to make them feel more advanced or if they are already perfect what more can be added to them?

If we have to guess the next character(s) that might be promoted from Mii costume to fighter. Who would it be?

I would say Geno, Bomberman, Doom Slayer, Octolings

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Here is a question how would you improve the original 12 to make them feel more advanced or if they are already perfect what more can be added to them?


I would say Geno, Bomberman, Doom Slayer, Octolings

Depends on what you mean by “advanced”. Of course Mario could be updated to match Ultimate newcomers’ gimmicky sets, but the point we talked about I think last page was whether we should.

 

[Idon]

Here is a question how would you improve the original 12 to make them feel more advanced or if they are already perfect what more can be added to them?


I would say Geno, Bomberman, Doom Slayer, Octolings

Make Samus move, attack, and feel like Dread Samus instead of Super Samus.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Next smash has to go back to being just Nintendo characters again. No more third parties.

I thought this belief died in like 2015 when Cloud btfo all the Nintendo All Star crowd and speculation opened up.

The era where first parties dominated Smash speculation is over, in no small part due to how few true fan favorites left there are to push. Think of what broad reaching, popular first party picks you have left. Waluigi, Isaac, Bandana Dee. Maybe you could count Dixie but to be brutally honest her support is mainly a Smashboards thing. Really, the only thing Smash has to do in terms of first parties is fill in holes that were created during this switch era. Picks like Officer Howard, Ring Fit Trainee, maybe a second Splatoon or Third Animal Crossing rep, stuff like that. While there are these holes that do exist, notice how not all of these are popular picks fan demand wise yet.

Furthermore, Smash stopped being about "Nintendo All Stars" at E3 2006 with Snake. People that want this sort of paradise away from scary third parties like Joker or Cloud that do not pass an arbitrary Nintendo purity test are setting themselves up for disappointment. Smash has encompassed showing off tons of the biggest franchises and trends in gaming. Let's go through what we got in case you do not get it.

















Notice how all of Smash's third parties are these big franchises that even at their most niche like Persona, Banjo, or Fatal Fury were hugely influential to gaming as a whole? Out of this list, at best maybe half of them would fit the Nintendo purity test that many of the Nintendo All Star Crowd would like. But in terms of being massive gaming hits, from Persona 5 being the biggest JRPG in the 2010s and arguably the past 15 years, SNK and their fighting games being cornerstones of the genre, or massive success stories from the PS1 like Metal Gear Solid, Castlevania Symphony of the Night, Tekken, and Final Fantasy 7 getting recognized in Gaming's greatest crossover. This belief that Smash should only be for a select few third parties and whatever first parties you deem fit should have been dead in 2006, was pronounced dead in 2015, and should have been dead and buried after TGA 2018.

Furthermore, this sort of gatekeeping that people like this do is toxic as hell. I know you might not have directly done this, but this sort of discussion and ideas is super toxic in terms of how it effects smash speculation. Think of how third party speculation as a whole for Smash 4 only was about Mega Man, Pac Man, and that was it. This loud vocal minority created an atmosphere where you could not hope or dream for whatever you want. Nowadays, some of the most discussed characters for Smash are Dante, Crash Bandicoot, Lloyd Irving, and Master Chief. The gates are much more open now, and it lets people actually talk about what they want to talk about.

If they have to spend time balancing and bugfixing an 80+ character roster, less time can be spent on adding new content, including newcomers. That's the logic behind "cut characters so we can add more new content".

Because it's unrealistic to expect all the content in Ultimate+a newcomer count closer to Brawl in base, a better adventure mode, additional side modes etc. unless Sakurai works on it for like six years. And don't you people want Sakurai to rest?

The thing is, Smash has settled into this role of a multiplayer experience. I sunk my teeth into WoL, got all the spirits (which meant playing through it twice), did every Classic mode, and I still spend far more time in Multiplayer matches. People play smash overall less because they want to experience stuff like Coin Launcher or Crazy Orders and more to play as their favorite characters and fight their friends. At best, the stuff the next smash will likely focus on will be stuff like a more robust online component.

Even then, consider how in ultimate we got 6 newcomers and 7 returning veterans, 4 of which I would call rather complex and only one had any work done on them before in Ice Climbers. If we did not bring everyone back, with all the stuff Ultimate brought we easily could have gotten around 10-12 newcomers, including how much time was spent working on having 103 beautiful HD stages at launch, an entire mode in Spirits full of references to hundreds of gaming moments, classic modes that were unique to each character with tons of them having references to their gaming past, and a revised online system that to be honest while the netcode is bad the lobbying system is so much better than Smash 4s. And we got all of that in ~3 year development time because they did not throw the baby out with the bathwater and used Smash 4 as a base. If we took that same logic and used Ultimate as a base, we could easily get 12 or so newcomers, some extra content, and better online with a reasonable development window.

Smash Ultimate as of this writing sold over 25 million copies. That is almost as much as Smash Wii U, Brawl, and Melee combined. Over 1/4 Switch owners own Smash. I doubt Nintendo would rock the boat that much when they know character hype for smash sells it and if you want proof, look at how well ultimate did. I know that a vocal minority does want a super robust single player or a lot of new modes, but 99% of your time with smash will be in muliplayer to be honest. Remember Smash Tour? How often did you ever play Smash Tour? Resource wise, it does not make sense going nuclear on the roster and cutting characters just to throw in modes that may or may not even be popular, when we know the formula works.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Actually there’s a lot more first party candidates left but the hivemind has decided to go full steam ahead to the big new and shiny third parties and has lazily adopted a framework of “Haha first party is Waluigi or new“. Disregarding first parties is honestly really annoying especially when trojan horsed into a post about how the purists are gatekeeping and third party should undeniably be the future of Smash

 

[walugurl]

Sorry, but I want it back to being a Nintendo all star game again, otherwise Waluigi will never be playable. They care too much about big third party characters because it makes them too much money.

 

[SPEN18]

I would like cuts in the next game because there are several characters currently playable that I would just rather not have playable. Ultimate's roster is, well, a mess: too many third parties with no Nintendo relation, grandfathered Melee clones that made some sense circa 2001 but make almost no sense now, and a few too many recency picks over the years that have now become outdated. We don't even need to go over the details on how strange the representation is for franchises like Zelda and FE. There's no actual direction or coherence to the roster, especially when it comes to the seemingly random selection of third party characters, and this could be rectified with a new game that focuses on the Nintendo portion of the roster and attempts to fully, completely, and coherently represent Nintendo's history. Ultimate is a hodge-podge because they brought everyone back without evaluating if those characters even made sense anymore, and then went hard on third parties to try to turn Smash into the "celebration of gaming" that it is unlikely to ever realistically become.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I would like cuts in the next game because there are several characters currently playable that I would just rather not have playable. Ultimate's roster is, well, a mess: too many third parties with no Nintendo relation, grandfathered Melee clones that made some sense circa 2001 but make almost no sense now, and a few too many recency picks over the years that have now become outdated. We don't even need to go over the details on how strange the representation is for franchises like Zelda and FE. There's no actual direction or coherence to the roster, especially when it comes to the seemingly random selection of third party characters, and this could be rectified with a new game that focuses on the Nintendo portion of the roster and attempts to fully, completely, and coherently represent Nintendo's history. Ultimate is a hodge-podge because they brought everyone back without evaluating if those characters even made sense anymore, and then went hard on third parties to try to turn Smash into the "celebration of gaming" that it is unlikely to ever realistically become.

How would you feel about Third Parties that are honorary Nintendo characters like Mega Man, Simon Belmont, and Banjo and Kazooie?

 

[ZelDan]

Sorry, but I want it back to being a Nintendo all star game again, otherwise Waluigi will never be playable. They care too much about big third party characters because it makes them too much money.

I doubt that third parties are the issue with Waluigi being added. If a character like K Rool can be made playable in a game that has a larger focus on third parties, I'm pretty sure Waluigi, a character with MUCH more mainstream appeal and more relavant/recent appearances, could.

What it comes down to is if NIntendo/Sakurai plain and simply want to add the character, and if they don't, well, The next game having third parties or not having third parties isn't going to make much of a difference.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Sorry, but I want it back to being a Nintendo all star game again, otherwise Waluigi will never be playable. They care too much about big third party characters because it makes them too much money.

We can have both first parties like Waluigi and big third parties in the next game. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[SPEN18]

How would you feel about Third Parties that are honorary Nintendo characters like Mega Man, Simon Belmont, and Banjo and Kazooie?

I was not advocating for the complete elimination of third parties. Some of them like Sonic and Banjo I think really do fit with the rest of the cast. But the roster would just be much more coherent and more completely achieve the goal of representing Nintendo history if the focus was narrowed and the current trend of including virtually anything was dialed back significantly.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Actually there’s a lot more first party candidates left but the hivemind has decided to go full steam ahead to the big new and shiny third parties and has lazily adopted a framework of “Haha first party is Waluigi or new“. Disregarding first parties is honestly really annoying especially when trojan horsed into a post about how the purists are gatekeeping and third party should undeniably be the future of Smash

Real cool of you trying to turn me into your boogeyman and a representation of your complaints about the Smash community. Literally if you read the piece you would see that at no point did I say that first party speculation was bad. At best, you can say that I justify why Smash speculation has moved on from First Parties as a whole,. If you want to speculate on first parties and view the roster as having more gaps, go ahead. No one is stopping you in this more open era of speculation. Just don't go projecting your frustrations about the changes to the smash community on me.

In terms of fan requests that are Ridley K Rool big, there really are only... 3-4. Waluigi, Isaac, Bandana Dee, and maybe Dixie Kong. Most first party requests nowadays just are not that big anymore. Most of the big first party requests have either had their fanbases die out like Krystal, got in already like Mac Palu Shulk K Rool Ridley and Inkling, or end up becoming a big request like Decidueye just because they are the new hotness.

Smash right now has been about filling in gaps in Nintendo's roster since Brawl, and right now there are not too many gaps left to fill. Outside of maybe Kirby it feels like most of the big Nintendo franchises are well represented. Spaltoon and Animal Crossing could easily get another rep, and new franchises that hit it big like the two I mentioned will probably get in. But the smash masses have seemed to have moved on from the days where characters like Adeline could make big waves in Smash. If we do get a next smash, it likely will end up having predominantly picks that are relevant to the Switch era at the end of the day. Brawl's newcomers outside of retros and third parties did end up predominantly from the GBA/GC/DS era. Smash 4's ended up being mainly the Wii/DS/3DS era. Ultimate...well to be honest the late 3DS and Wii U era were kind of barren for big easy picks to go for, but we got Inkling Incineroar and Isabelle to show off some of the few big successes Nintendo had, as well as stages for Odyssey and BOTW, the two switch games in development before Ultimate. Even with the DLC, we filled in some cracks for Switch representation with Byleth, Aegis, and Min.

Don't go making me into your boogeyman just because the Smash fanbase has noticed the trend towards third parties and how first party representation has worked since Brawl. Ten out of our twenty three newcomers were third party if you include echos. If you don't, its still eight out of eighteen that were third party. Compare that to 4 or Brawl, and

Sorry, but I want it back to being a Nintendo all star game again, otherwise Waluigi will never be playable. They care too much about big third party characters because it makes them too much money.

Waluigi is literally one of the last big first party requests left right now, take your bait and wait for a few years.

I would like cuts in the next game because there are several characters currently playable that I would just rather not have playable. Ultimate's roster is, well, a mess: too many third parties with no Nintendo relation, grandfathered Melee clones that made some sense circa 2001 but make almost no sense now, and a few too many recency picks over the years that have now become outdated. We don't even need to go over the details on how strange the representation is for franchises like Zelda and FE. There's no actual direction or coherence to the roster, especially when it comes to the seemingly random selection of third party characters, and this could be rectified with a new game that focuses on the Nintendo portion of the roster and attempts to fully, completely, and coherently represent Nintendo's history. Ultimate is a hodge-podge because they brought everyone back without evaluating if those characters even made sense anymore, and then went hard on third parties to try to turn Smash into the "celebration of gaming" that it is unlikely to ever realistically become.

Literally the only clone that does not make sense out of the melee roster is Ganon, who is divisive in terms of getting a rework. Zelda representation is fine because there literally are what, two recurring characters not in Smash in Impa and Tingle? FE representation has done good strides with stuff like Robin, Corrin, and Byelth all attempting to show off other facets of FE like the weapons triangle, weapon durability and magic, and transformations.

Smash has evolved into a celebration of gaming according to its own creator, hence why our third parties either are big third parties for their company or close to Nintendo. In terms of close to Nintendo, you have Mega Man, Sonic, Bayonetta, Banjo Kazooie, the Belmonts, and arguably the Shotos and Hero. If not, the Shotos are from the biggest fighting game of all time. Dragon Quest is one of the biggest JRPG series of all time. Fatal Fury and SNKs fighters have had a strong influence on the genre. Tekken is massive in terms of fighting games. Final Fantasy 7 and Metal Gear Solid are legendary games that have shaped gaming discourses for almost 25 years. Persona 5 is the biggest JRPG release of the past ten years. Minecraft is the biggest game of all time. If even the most niche third parties like Terry and Joker have arguments for a celebration of gaming, I think its clear the selection was not "random". Bringing everone back was done because characters like Snake, Wolf, and Ice Climbers were massive fan requests after their cuts.

Ever since Brawl, Smash's roster was chosen less in terms of filling cracks in terms of arbitrary representation and more about filling cracks left due to a new generation. Brawl added many long standing picks like Wario, Dedede, or Diddy, but all those picks were relevant at the time as well and Brawl made no secret how it was repping the GC/GBA/DS era. Literally, responding to someone else above I outlined how Smash 4 and Ultimate do that. If you want some sort of purified roster where everyone "makes sense", you will never get that. That just is not how Smash rosters work, they are messy and have decisions that very few people see coming.

Nintendo's history is represented well in Smash. There are a few smaller series that could make the cut to get shown off, such as Astral Chain, Ring Fit, Golden Sun, and Wars, but Smash has done a good job showing off Nintendo history. The spirit battles are a great way to show off Nintendo history as well, with a lot of love going into making an event match that fits with any of the hundreds of Nintendo Spirits, with characters, music, and battle conditions that work out for it. The music for smash as well has done a great job of representing Nintendo as a whole. While some songs are absent that are missed like Wario Deluxe or God Shattering Star, you have a wide assortment of songs that aim to show the soul of each series. The stages all are also done to give as good a grasp into a series as possible while being a backdrop for fighting. Even in terms of existing franchises, the only ones that are arguably underrepresented are Kirby and Zelda. Everything else got plenty of love coming into Ultimate, had its cracks filled, or getting another character at this point would be gravy. Nowadays, Splatoon and Animal Crossing arguably could get another rep each, but these holes came after Ultimate.

Odds are, whatever next game exists will be done with a similar mindset to 4 and Ultimate, especially given what Sakurai himself has said in his column and how he does view that he might work on smash again for the next one. We will probably end up getting something very similar to Ultimate in its DNA with a lot of the same love and care put into representing gaming as well as possible, showing off classic Nintendo series, third parties that are massive, and and filling whatever little cracks there are after the Switch era. Given what hill you have chosen to die on, you probably wont be happy given how much you have ignored how much of Nintendo's history is celebrated because they dared to add someone like Cloud.

 

[Guynamednelson]

A crossover with everything isn't that special anymore anyway, considering how many games get one crossover event after another. IMO it prevents Smash from having its own identity even more than third-party-dominated DLC passes.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

A crossover with everything isn't that special anymore anyway, considering how many games get one crossover event after another. IMO it prevents Smash from having its own identity even more than third-party-dominated DLC passes.

I genuinely don't get this take. Part of the reason that people request third parties or really anything for smash is to see them cross over and rub elbows with icons like Mario and Sonic. People like seeing their favorite franchises cross over. It is what gave Smash its own identity in 64.

It does not matter if Smash crosses over with Halo or Tomb Raider or Tales, the magic of seeing franchises and characters you love in Smash will still be there. Smash's entire identity is creating those dream matchups like Mario vs Link vs Pikachu. The only thing that has changed is that now you have dream matchups like Mario vs Sonic vs Master Chief vs Cloud as a possibility.

 

[walugurl]

Waluigi is literally one of the last big first party requests left right now, take your bait and wait for a few years.

You think Nintendo gives a ****? They don’t, otherwise he would have been playable in Ultimate.

I want to remind you this is how they treat him.

 

[Shroob]

A crossover with everything isn't that special anymore anyway, considering how many games get one crossover event after another. IMO it prevents Smash from having its own identity even more than third-party-dominated DLC passes.

I mean, Smash's identity IS being a crossover.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, Smash's identity IS being a crossover.

Yes, but EVERYTHING ELSE feels like it needs to be a mega-wacky-out-there crossover now. Disappointed you can't have MC fight Kratos in Smash? Try Fortnite.

 

[Shroob]

Yes, but EVERYTHING ELSE feels like it needs to be a mega-wacky-out-there crossover now. Disappointed you can't have MC fight Kratos in Smash? Try Fortnite.

No it doesn't?


There's plenty of stuff out there that isn't crossover, it's just that companies started to pick up on the idea that "Huh, you nerds love it when different ips come together, let's make easy money off it."


Like, crossovers aren't anything new, it's just that right now, it's being brought to attention because everyone wants a piece of the Smash/Fortnite pie.

 

[7NATOR]

Because it's unrealistic to expect all the content in Ultimate+a newcomer count closer to Brawl in base, a better adventure mode, additional side modes etc. unless Sakurai works on it for like six years. And don't you people want Sakurai to rest?

If they not only keep all the Assets of Ultimate, but (Unlike other Smash games) Keep the Same Game and Character Balance/Game plans, then I think it would be easier and Less time consuming to make a More Substantial Smash game than if they restarted on any of those aspects

Ultimate brought everything back, but it also fined tuned everything, and that took alot of time. Now that the work is already done on the fine tuning, If they make a New Smash they could spend more of that time Adding New Content and Stages, and Balancing the Newcomers in relation to what's already there rather than also having to Balance the Veterans themselves at the Same time

I guess it depends on what Nintendo/Sakurai would feel is more worth it. Keeping Similiar Balance and Gameplay to Ultimate would make it more Samey, which might be a turn off, but I think that the Gains they would have from doing that (Being able to Add on more to the Roster, Probably breaking the 100 character limit, Being able to focus on other aspects of the game, etc).




That's just my take anyway

A crossover with everything isn't that special anymore anyway, considering how many games get one crossover event after another. IMO it prevents Smash from having its own identity even more than third-party-dominated DLC passes.

The thing that Separates Smash from other Games is the amount of effort put into Crossing over the Characters. You're not just getting the Skin or just a taste of a Character, you're getting the Full Package. The Character themselves with their Personality, Abilities, fighting style, etc, You getting Stages from their franchises, Music, other Subsidiary content. And all of that is Fighting against Other Characters with the Same love and Quality. Batman going against Wolverine in Fortnite is cool, but they are just skins in the game, so it's nowhere as exciting. Same things with stuff like Brawlhalla and such

And I think also a Main Factor is that these characters actually stay in the games. Mortal Kombat puts great love into the Guest Characters, but they never stay after the game they appear in, and the same goes for other Fighting game Guest Characters

Is Smash the only Game doing Crossovers, no it's not. The thing is that the amount of Effort and quality that's put into the Crossover is why it's a Special Game

You think Nintendo gives a ****? They don’t, otherwise he would have been playable in Ultimate.

I want to remind you this is how they treat him. View attachment 336720

Everything is Timing. Going into Ultimate in the era of 2015/2016, Waluigi probably wasn't much of a Huge Factor to Nintendo and the Dev Team. I think the fact that Reggie commented on Waluigi and said he was gonna talk to Sakurai about him in 2018 shows things change

There's a good chance that FP1 and FP2 were already planned in some fashion in what characters they were gonna Include. Sora seems to be the Main Exception, but it was worth it because he was the Most Requested character on the Ballot, which Waluigi can't answer too. However during Ultimate's Cycle the Support was at a All Time high, and we now need to see how they answer that going into the Next Game, whether it be something New or an Ultimate Upgrade of some kind

The Smash Series isn't done. Characters like Ridley and K.Rool had to wait long time to get in. be patient and such.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Real cool of you trying to turn me into your boogeyman and a representation of your complaints about the Smash community. Literally if you read the piece you would see that at no point did I say that first party speculation was bad. At best, you can say that I justify why Smash speculation has moved on from First Parties as a whole,. If you want to speculate on first parties and view the roster as having more gaps, go ahead. No one is stopping you in this more open era of speculation. Just don't go projecting your frustrations about the changes to the smash community on me.

In terms of fan requests that are Ridley K Rool big, there really are only... 3-4. Waluigi, Isaac, Bandana Dee, and maybe Dixie Kong. Most first party requests nowadays just are not that big anymore. Most of the big first party requests have either had their fanbases die out like Krystal, got in already like Mac Palu Shulk K Rool Ridley and Inkling, or end up becoming a big request like Decidueye just because they are the new hotness.

Smash right now has been about filling in gaps in Nintendo's roster since Brawl, and right now there are not too many gaps left to fill. Outside of maybe Kirby it feels like most of the big Nintendo franchises are well represented. Spaltoon and Animal Crossing could easily get another rep, and new franchises that hit it big like the two I mentioned will probably get in. But the smash masses have seemed to have moved on from the days where characters like Adeline could make big waves in Smash. If we do get a next smash, it likely will end up having predominantly picks that are relevant to the Switch era at the end of the day. Brawl's newcomers outside of retros and third parties did end up predominantly from the GBA/GC/DS era. Smash 4's ended up being mainly the Wii/DS/3DS era. Ultimate...well to be honest the late 3DS and Wii U era were kind of barren for big easy picks to go for, but we got Inkling Incineroar and Isabelle to show off some of the few big successes Nintendo had, as well as stages for Odyssey and BOTW, the two switch games in development before Ultimate. Even with the DLC, we filled in some cracks for Switch representation with Byleth, Aegis, and Min.

True, my frustrations were more general rather than aimed at you, though the idea that you were merely discussing why the community has moved on from speculation on first parties is an unfair assessment and entirely circular by saying that first parties are pushed out of speculation because there are no first parties that are central to speculation anymore. This idea that first party representation is about filling in the gaps is a subjective statement, so I felt free to object to that common framework, although obviously my frustration did not come from your statement exclusively but rather the self-fulflling prophecy that is occuring in the fanbase as a whole that I’ve described above. To then state that your post was merely a description when you state a clear mission statement for Smash (“Really, all …has to do is fill in the gaps”) is an unfair assessment as well.

As I stated before, the fact that there are little big requests left is a self-fullfilling prophecy. People move away from first parties since the common speculation mantra nowadays is that there are little old characters left. This “bottom of the barrel” argument has existed since Smash 4 and yet Smash Ultimate has added a large amount of first party characters, not alll of which are created since the argument first appeared.

In an alternative view, I believe the support for first parties pre-Ultimate has mostly concentrated in Ultimate in the Assist Trophy department, whose deconfirmation halted their support when they otherwise could’ve gotten traction. Ashley, Skull Kid and Krystal come to mind. We‘ve seen how far Geno has come, partially because his deconfirmation was so late so that his perceived likelihood went up and thus his support did.

Circumstance is key. We’ve seen characters go gold because of fake leaks and had characters crash because of deconfirmation. Character popularity is never a one-to-one mapping, so even if there are very little character phenomenons like K. Rool, doesn’t mean that they could be later, or even that speculation presence is a valid gauge for size.

One thing seems guaranteed though, letting the frame that there aren’t that many big first party characters left go unchallenged actively decreases the chance for first party characters to go noticed, and does not make speculation as free as it could be even if first party characters aren‘t met with active jeering like third parties used to be.

 

[Shroob]

I do think trying to poopoo the aspect that Smash has become a celebration of gaming is just baffling.


Are there series that you can point at and say "Well, why aren't they in?" Absolutely, but I feel like, no matter what, you could add all those characters that came to mind and you'd still think of even more after to fill the void.

The answer is simply that no matter how many characters you add, you're always going to have a "Well, why not them?" Smash 100% is a celebration of gaming.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I do think trying to poopoo the aspect that Smash has become a celebration of gaming is just baffling.

It would be, but Everyone Is Here means there's over 60 characters specifically from Nintendo to play as, including ones people only care about in the realm of Smash. World of Light gives you a history lesson on Nintendo more than it gives you one on gaming, minus maybe the SF and Castlevania dungeons and one question in the trivia section relating to Castlevania.

 

[Shroob]

It would be, but Everyone Is Here means there's over 60 characters specifically from Nintendo to play as. World of Light gives you a history lesson on Nintendo more than it gives you one on gaming, minus maybe the SF and Castlevania dungeons and one question in the trivia section relating to Castlevania.

I mean, who cares about WoL tbfh lmao.


The Sora presentation showing just how much stuff is in the game said pretty much everything.

 

[walugurl]

If they not only keep all the Assets of Ultimate, but (Unlike other Smash games) Keep the Same Game and Character Balance/Game plans, then I think it would be easier and Less time consuming to make a More Substantial Smash game than if they restarted on any of those aspects

Ultimate brought everything back, but it also fined tuned everything, and that took alot of time. Now that the work is already done on the fine tuning, If they make a New Smash they could spend more of that time Adding New Content and Stages, and Balancing the Newcomers in relation to what's already there rather than also having to Balance the Veterans themselves at the Same time

I guess it depends on what Nintendo/Sakurai would feel is more worth it. Keeping Similiar Balance and Gameplay to Ultimate would make it more Samey, which might be a turn off, but I think that the Gains they would have from doing that (Being able to Add on more to the Roster, Probably breaking the 100 character limit, Being able to focus on other aspects of the game, etc).




That's just my take anyway


The thing that Separates Smash from other Games is the amount of effort put into Crossing over the Characters. You're not just getting the Skin or just a taste of a Character, you're getting the Full Package. The Character themselves with their Personality, Abilities, fighting style, etc, You getting Stages from their franchises, Music, other Subsidiary content. And all of that is Fighting against Other Characters with the Same love and Quality. Batman going against Wolverine in Fortnite is cool, but they are just skins in the game, so it's nowhere as exciting. Same things with stuff like Brawlhalla and such

And I think also a Main Factor is that these characters actually stay in the games. Mortal Kombat puts great love into the Guest Characters, but they never stay after the game they appear in, and the same goes for other Fighting game Guest Characters

Is Smash the only Game doing Crossovers, no it's not. The thing is that the amount of Effort and quality that's put into the Crossover is why it's a Special Game



Everything is Timing. Going into Ultimate in the era of 2015/2016, Waluigi probably wasn't much of a Huge Factor to Nintendo and the Dev Team. I think the fact that Reggie commented on Waluigi and said he was gonna talk to Sakurai about him in 2018 shows things change

There's a good chance that FP1 and FP2 were already planned in some fashion in what characters they were gonna Include. Sora seems to be the Main Exception, but it was worth it because he was the Most Requested character on the Ballot, which Waluigi can't answer too. However during Ultimate's Cycle the Support was at a All Time high, and we now need to see how they answer that going into the Next Game, whether it be something New or an Ultimate Upgrade of some kind

The Smash Series isn't done. Characters like Ridley and K.Rool had to wait long time to get in. be patient and such.

Nintendo doesn’t care, he’s not even feature at Nintendo world. I don’t expect them to change their ways about this character.

 

[Ivander]

Yes, but EVERYTHING ELSE feels like it needs to be a mega-wacky-out-there crossover now. Disappointed you can't have MC fight Kratos in Smash? Try Fortnite.

Want to have Master Chief with his weapons and equipment from Halo fight against Kratos from God of War using weapons and abilities he used in God of War while battling on Spiral Mountain? Well, too bad, Fortnite don't allow your own unique abilities, weapons or stages. Just Jonesy ripping your skin off and wearing it like it was his own. default dances

And quite frankly, I want more genuine crossovers like what Nick did or what Warner Bros is possibly doing. One because I love crossovers like Smash Bros. and Versus Capcom. Two because Smash needs some competition. And three, even the crossovers we're recently or possibly getting wouldn't stop me from being excited when one I really want or be very interested in gets announced, like for me, say, a proper Sega crossover game or Sega vs Capcom or very big crossovers that try to tackle different genres, like platformers or beat-em-ups or etc.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, who cares about WoL tbfh lmao.


The Sora presentation showing just how much stuff is in the game said pretty much everything.

The point is, in the same game where most of the DLC newcomers are third-party, the base game was chock full of stuff related to first-parties, leading to a weird mishmash. You can say "well Nintendo is a big part of gaming to be fair" but that doesn't excuse how this so-called "celebration of gaming" is still dominated by Nintendo even with the direction the DLC went.

 

[Shroob]

The point is, in the same game where most of the DLC newcomers are third-party, the base game was chock full of stuff related to first-parties, leading to a weird mishmash. You can say "well Nintendo is a big part of gaming to be fair" but that doesn't excuse how this so-called "celebration of gaming" is still dominated by Nintendo even with the direction the DLC went.

I mean, the base game already had:

Sonic
Megaman
Pac Man
Street Fighter
Final Fantasy(7 lmao)
Metal Gear
Bayonetta
Castlevania

As 3rd party representation, alongside with others as assist trophies like Fatal Frame and Bomberman.




Is the game dominated by Nintendo? Yes, but that really does not at all take away from the celebration of gaming aspect of it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yes, but that really does not at all take away from the celebration of gaming aspect of it.

A celebration of gaming in general, and not just Nintendo, should not let you pit the Ice Climbers vs. Dark Samus vs. Piranha Plant vs. a Mii Gunner dressed as Ray Mk. III while the Arcade Bunny pops out of an assist trophy and they're fighting on Hanenbow. That's what I mean when I say the game dives too deep into Nintendo history to celebrate all of gaming.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Nintendo doesn’t care, he’s not even feature at Nintendo world. I don’t expect them to change their ways about this character.

What are you talking about?

Waluigi is getting pushed more in the last few years than he had for a decade prior.

 

[Shroob]

A celebration of gaming in general, and not just Nintendo, should not let you pit the Ice Climbers vs. Dark Samus vs. Piranha Plant vs. a Mii Gunner dressed as Ray Mk. III while the Arcade Bunny pops out of an assist trophy and they're fighting on Hanenbow. That's what I mean when I say the game dives too deep into Nintendo history to celebrate all of gaming.

Why can't it be both?


Like, Smash is, at its core, a celebration of Nintendo


But over the years, it's pushed to become a more encompassing celebration of gaming. Like, between the playables, assists, and mii costumes, we have a lot of IPs under our belt.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Why can't it be both?

It could, but it just feels too lopsided in Nintendo's favor right now. Even some of the third-parties contribute to the Nintendo lopsidedness, like Banjo.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I always feel like I'm somewhere in the middle with these conversations.

Do I want third parties gone or reduced? Heck no.

Do I think Nintendo characters aren't appreciated enough and we should have more? Heck yeah.

I want both.

I sympathize with people who feel Nintendo characters are getting ignored, because on some level they are, both by the community and the character selection. But don't stop giving me third parties. They're rad too.

 

[Shroob]

I always feel like I'm somewhere in the middle with these conversations.

Do I want third parties gone or reduced? Heck no.

Do I think Nintendo characters aren't appreciated enough and we should have more? Heck yeah.

I want both.

I sympathize with people who feel Nintendo characters are getting ignored, because on some level they are, both by the community and the character selection. But don't stop giving me third parties. They're rad too.

That's really just the business aspect of it all rearing its head.


Base game is pretty much the best time for characters like that, and it's hard to say that Ult didn't deliver in that regard.


But we've now seen how Nintendo likes to handle 1st party DLC 2 games in a row now, and outside of Plant and the vets in Smash 4, it's all recent-ish titles.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do I want third parties gone or reduced?

Heck no.

Do I think Nintendo characters aren't appreciated enough and we should have more?

Heck no.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That's really just the business aspect of it all rearing its head.


Base game is pretty much the best time for characters like that, and it's hard to say that Ult didn't deliver in that regard.


But we've now seen how Nintendo likes to handle 1st party DLC 2 games in a row now, and outside of Plant and the vets in Smash 4, it's all recent-ish titles.

Again, considering Banjo, I'm sure Nintendo would be more willing to add irrelevant characters if demanded enough.

Problem is, they had too many third-party plans to go through, and fan demand is going to act like Mythra will be the final Nintendo character added to Smash ever. Until 6 gets revealed and some first-party newcomer is shown off.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That's really just the business aspect of it all rearing its head.


Base game is pretty much the best time for characters like that, and it's hard to say that Ult didn't deliver in that regard.


But we've now seen how Nintendo likes to handle 1st party DLC 2 games in a row now, and outside of Plant and the vets in Smash 4, it's all recent-ish titles.

Are recent titles bad?

Heck no.

Heck no.

Don't answer the above question. We all know you're allergic to polygons.

 

[Shroob]

Again, considering Banjo, I'm sure Nintendo would be more willing to add irrelevant characters if demanded enough.

Problem is, they had too many third-party plans to go through, and fan demand is going to act like Mythra will be the final Nintendo character added to Smash ever. Until 6 gets revealed and some first-party newcomer is shown off.

Well, that's why EVERYONE IS HERE happened after all.