Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Alright

Piranha Plant

A DLC bonus

Perhaps the closest Smash Bros equivalent of a joke fighter

Is it coming back?

Probably not outside another EiH.

I feel something like Piranha Plant happened because it wouldn't take the place of a pre-existing fighter.

 

[Louie G.]

Probably not outside another EiH.

I feel something like Piranha Plant happened because it wouldn't take the place of a pre-existing fighter.

Yeah, that and the “bonus” role. Presumably it was being humored for base game already, but it slotted into a really cozy spot where it wasn’t in anybody’s way. Not taking up that precious base game newcomer space, and not wasting a DLC slot either. Honestly I hope we see more characters like this down the line as a buffer of sorts, it was cool.

 

[Garteam]

quality over quantity. veterans haven't been updated in forever, so I'd like to see them be brought up to par with newcomers.

they can't go beyond Ultimate, character-wise. I don't want them to go beyond Ultimate anyway, because it's apparent how existing characters are neglected in favor of newcomers, when a lot of Nintendo's most enticing characters are already on the roster but don't feel like themselves. If there was ever a time to "hit the reset button", it's now. People who enjoy the old movesets can stick with Ultimate since that has all the characters; I think that revamping a lot of veterans is the correct course of action, then continue building up from there. add new mechanics on top like meters/assists/aerial smashes/etc (basically changes to the core gameplay formula that can evolve the platform fighting in a bold new direction), and I'll be set.

The next game is going to have cuts. There's no way around it. And if we're gonna have cuts, I don't want to go baby steps where there's around 60 characters and most of the veterans are still untouched; no no, I would personally go full-on scorched earth and get my hands bloody. nuke everything, start from ground zero. A wise man once said, "if the importance of Yoshi isn't being called into question ya haven't gone far enough".

the next game cannot be essentially "Ultimate with less content". it has to be something new to entice people, because Ultimate can't be topped character-wise. I am totally and completely fine with Smash in its current state ending at Ultimate, since sooner or later something's gonna have to change, and Ultimate is the perfect swan song for this "classic" era of the series.

This approach is way too fixated within the lens of "Smash fan" to the detriment of Smash's massive casual fanbase.

All of the mechanics you listed could potentially increase Smash's skill ceiling, but it will also make the game more difficult for casual fans to pick up and play. In my anecdotal experience, Ultimate is at the perfect sweet spot of being easy to pick up, yet difficult to master. New players get knocked around pretty hard for their first 5 to 10 games, but they generally have enough control and knowledge to get by (especially in a free-for-all). After that period, they slowly begin picking up more and more skills as they continue to play more and experiment with new scenarios and players. Adding stuff like dedicated aerial smash-attacks and a formal meter serves only to lengthen that skill curve by giving experienced players more tools to clown on the new guys with, defeating Smash's function as a pick-up-and-play party game. Plus, would competitive players care that much about new mechanics? People seem pretty happy with Ultimate mechanically (barring maybe the buffer system), complaints with Ultimate at a competitive level deal a lot more with how certain characters are not fun to play or to play against at a high level.

Regarding the veteran changes, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you in regards to Ultimate's veterans feeling outdated next to their newcomers. Smash for Wii U/3DS and Ultimate did a good job of giving the series' previous characters iterative updates that add up to them feeling more modern than in previous entries. Ike is a really good example of a character that hasn't gotten a lot in the way of changes since Brawl, but his changes have added up to him feeling a lot more actualized by the time of Ultimate. The blue flames, his Radiant Dawn look, the better posture for his neutral animations, and his new up-air are all pretty minor but their presence is felt. Additionally, I imagine most people would rather have a large number of good but imperfect characters than a handful of smaller number of slightly more source-accurate characters. DK getting his barrel or Samus getting her dash attack isn't worth the price of losing Roy, Wolf, R.O.B, Mewtwo, Palutena, ZSS, and King K. Rool.

Smash isn't like other fighting games. It's not like Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, or even Mortal Kombat, where most of the purchasers will be series die-hards who are highly fixated on how the game works at a mechanical level. Street Fighter 5 and 6 can have a launch roster of 25 with substantial reworks to general gameplay and the vets because the average Street Fighter fan is sensitive enough to these complexities to notice them and see them as worth buying a new entry (although the success of this approach can still be pretty debated). The average Smash fan is far less focused on the intricacies of the gameplay and is more in it for the crossover aspect of the game. Cutting basically every secondary character and many of the more obscure franchises from playable representation will erode the primary selling point behind a new entry, regardless of who the 11 or so newcomers are.

 

[SPEN18]

Another huge part of the issue is that people are comparing roster numbers to the count that Ult had after all of its DLC, the 82 number. Base game Ult only had 69 per the official numbering system. So a roster with around 60 characters wouldn't even really be much of a downscale at all. Of course, quite a lot of cuts would still be necessary to accommodate a healthy number of newcomers in that count, but the overall amount of characters wouldn't be going down very much, just the balance would be swayed more towards new faces than in Ult (which might in itself even be enough to compensate for the slight downsize, let alone any other new modes and contents).

 

[Arcanir]

Yeah, it depends on the boss and stage for me. For example, Metal Face is fine because the stage is big enough that you can easily play around him. Willy’s Castle is a relatively small Battlefield variant so Yellow Devil takes up half the stage. I think if they greatly reduced how often it appeared, it could be a fun diversion but it shows up like 3 or 4 times per battle for me.

Ridley and Pyrosphere was probably the worst about that. It's kind of ironic as looking back at the Smash Wii U final presentation it was pretty clear that they really wanted to sell the stage by the character, but the way it was implemented backfired and made the stage pretty disliked. He suffers from Yellow Devil's issues of being too big and too omnipresent on the stage as he appears, takes up half of it, and appears often, but they also gave him a very controversial (if not flat out unpopular) gimmick that forced interaction with him. You have to fight him or you risk the other players getting him on their side and losing, and that made it one of the worst cases of fighting the stage in that game.

8 player Smash was a huge influence on Wii U's stage design. It's why so many of their stages seem randomly made.

Compare it to the 3DS stages which are very well designed.

Yeah, I feel like the 3DS gets a bit of a bad rep due to its counterpart when in general the 3DS stages were closer to Brawl's set. Most of its stage tended to either have few gimmicks, or the gimmicks they had weren't as overwhelming.

 

[JOJONumber691]

This Discussion of Cuts reminds me that I need to get around to making my Roster Mockup for what I think the next game will look like.

 

[RileyXY1]

When it comes to cuts, I actually think that clone fighters are more likely to stay than go due to the very minimal time and manpower that went into their inclusion.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I mean if that was the only factor in terms of staying then I feel like all of Melee’s Clones would’ve stayed lol.

 

[RileyXY1]

I mean if that was the only factor in terms of staying then I feel like all of Melee’s Clones would’ve stayed lol.

Roy and Dr. Mario were planned, but got the axe for time constraints (same with Mewtwo). The only characters Brawl planned to cut were Pichu (who was incredibly unpopular with the fanbase at the time) and Young Link (who was switched out for Toon Link to represent the Wind Waker and all the other cell-shaded Zelda games that came out between Melee and Brawl).

 

[Gorgonzales]

This approach is way too fixated within the lens of "Smash fan" to the detriment of Smash's massive casual fanbase.

All of the mechanics you listed could potentially increase Smash's skill ceiling, but it will also make the game more difficult for casual fans to pick up and play. In my anecdotal experience, Ultimate is at the perfect sweet spot of being easy to pick up, yet difficult to master. New players get knocked around pretty hard for their first 5 to 10 games, but they generally have enough control and knowledge to get by (especially in a free-for-all). After that period, they slowly begin picking up more and more skills as they continue to play more and experiment with new scenarios and players. Adding stuff like dedicated aerial smash-attacks and a formal meter serves only to lengthen that skill curve by giving experienced players more tools to clown on the new guys with, defeating Smash's function as a pick-up-and-play party game. Plus, would competitive players care that much about new mechanics? People seem pretty happy with Ultimate mechanically (barring maybe the buffer system), complaints with Ultimate at a competitive level deal a lot more with how certain characters are not fun to play or to play against at a high level.

Regarding the veteran changes, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you in regards to Ultimate's veterans feeling outdated next to their newcomers. Smash for Wii U/3DS and Ultimate did a good job of giving the series' previous characters iterative updates that add up to them feeling more modern than in previous entries. Ike is a really good example of a character that hasn't gotten a lot in the way of changes since Brawl, but his changes have added up to him feeling a lot more actualized by the time of Ultimate. The blue flames, his Radiant Dawn look, the better posture for his neutral animations, and his new up-air are all pretty minor but their presence is felt. Additionally, I imagine most people would rather have a large number of good but imperfect characters than a handful of smaller number of slightly more source-accurate characters. DK getting his barrel or Samus getting her dash attack isn't worth the price of losing Roy, Wolf, R.O.B, Mewtwo, Palutena, ZSS, and King K. Rool.

Smash isn't like other fighting games. It's not like Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, or even Mortal Kombat, where most of the purchasers will be series die-hards who are highly fixated on how the game works at a mechanical level. Street Fighter 5 and 6 can have a launch roster of 25 with substantial reworks to general gameplay and the vets because the average Street Fighter fan is sensitive enough to these complexities to notice them and see them as worth buying a new entry (although the success of this approach can still be pretty debated). The average Smash fan is far less focused on the intricacies of the gameplay and is more in it for the crossover aspect of the game. Cutting basically every secondary character and many of the more obscure franchises from playable representation will erode the primary selling point behind a new entry, regardless of who the 11 or so newcomers are.

Ah, that's a fair point. I suppose my reset proposal is more of what I want to see from the series than anything, although what you said made me realize it's less likely than than I'm deluding myself into believing.

I just want Ganondorf to not be half-Falcon anymore, man.

This Discussion of Cuts reminds me that I need to get around to making my Roster Mockup for what I think the next game will look like.

I made one recently of what I'd want the base roster to look like in my ideal Smash reboot. In all likelihood it'll probably be bigger when said new Smash game actually arrives, but I wanted to try for a nice balance of 36 characters, with a live service model adding more vets and newcomers down the line as time marches on. Shulk, King K Rool, and Meta Knight would be the first vets prioritzed to return I'd imagine.

 

[Sucumbio]

... Pichu (who was incredibly unpopular with the fanbase at the time)

People didn't like Pichu? He's so cute tho... But I thought Sakurai didn't even follow "the fanbase" (I'm assuming you mean the competitive scene which Brawl was to the point of cliche very anti so).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

People didn't like Pichu? He's so cute tho... But I thought Sakurai didn't even follow "the fanbase" (I'm assuming you mean the competitive scene which Brawl was to the point of cliche very anti so).

It's a lot more popular than people give credit for, but it still had a lot of unpopularity. Having a self-hurt gimmick, and being a clone didn't help either. Other things like the worst Target Test in the game, and not all were a fan of the baby Pokemon either. Any TCG player would tell you that they were really annoying to deal with.

I love the critter myself. It helps being iconic too(and had some starring side movies). Overall, the only one really dang unpopular was the Spiky-Eared Pichu, less so in the movie, but the terrible game version they created(who can't evolve and has awful stats and an awful permanent 4 moves). She was very cute, though. Credit on that~

Besides that, if Plusle & Minun were intended, they were going to likely replace Pichu in the same way that Toon Link replaced Young Link. Basically created by using the previous version as a base. As well as rotating the cast for the next generation. Clones can be expendable depending upon circumstances.

 

[RileyXY1]

This is unfortunately who I think is getting cut (if they're not going the Ultimate Deluxe route):

Corrin: They're the most expendable FE character out of the set. Fates isn't exactly a popular entry in the series, and the rest either have Smash legacy on their side (Roy), or have fame in their home games (Marth, Robin, Chrom, Lucina, Byleth). So Corrin will be the one to go.
All Square Enix reps: The only way I can see these characters back in the base roster is if they go the Ultimate Deluxe route. If they don't, they'll probably be all cut and made DLC again, so we'll lose Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and Sora.
Steve: Despite Minecraft's massive fame, Steve was very difficult to implement in the game, and required the full rework of all 100+ stages in the game so that his gimmick could function properly. And I don't know if Sakurai would want to go through that again, so Steve will get the axe.
Pokémon Trainer: Here's another character that was very difficult to include. This is essentially three fully unique characters in one, and thus they have three times the workload of your average fighter. I think that without Everyone is Here they'll probably be cut and Charizard will be on his own again like in Smash 4.
Piranha Plant: This was clearly a joke. He clearly made this character for laughs, and they're the most expendable of the Mario cast.
Ike: Looks like I'm cutting FE down by two fighters, and I was torn between cutting either Roy or Ike, but due to Roy's greater legacy in Smash I decided to give the spot to him and cut Ike.

 

[92MilesPrower]

People didn't like Pichu? He's so cute tho... But I thought Sakurai didn't even follow "the fanbase" (I'm assuming you mean the competitive scene which Brawl was to the point of cliche very anti so).

Like it or not, Pichu was a joke character in the eyes of a lot of people, being basically a worse Pikachu, alongside the self-damaging aspect of his moveset. The in-game trophy descriptions didn't help either, with them literally stating "top of the class in weakness" and " best suited for handicapped matches."

 

[NintenRob]

Ah, that's a fair point. I suppose my reset proposal is more of what I want to see from the series than anything, although what you said made me realize it's less likely than than I'm deluding myself into believing.

I just want Ganondorf to not be half-Falcon anymore, man.



I made one recently of what I'd want the base roster to look like in my ideal Smash reboot. In all likelihood it'll probably be bigger when said new Smash game actually arrives, but I wanted to try for a nice balance of 36 characters, with a live service model adding more vets and newcomers down the line as time marches on. Shulk, King K Rool, and Meta Knight would be the first vets prioritzed to return I'd imagine.
View attachment 383483

Gotta be honest. If that were the roster, I probably wouldn't bother buying the game

 

[RileyXY1]

Like it or not, Pichu was a joke character in the eyes of a lot of people, being basically a worse Pikachu, alongside the self-damaging aspect of his moveset. The in-game trophy descriptions didn't help either, with them literally stating "top of the class in weakness" and " best suited for handicapped matches."

Yep. It wasn't until Ultimate revamped Pichu from a joke fighter to a Glass Cannon that players finally gained an appreciation for the character. They also eventually realized that they were too hard on Pichu and despite his self-damaging gimmick he was far from the worst fighter in Melee, and now Pichu ranks fifth from the bottom on the current Melee tier list, ahead of Ness, Zelda, Kirby, and Bowser. Mew2King even made a tier list that put Pichu at 19th, ahead of not only the four characters I mentioned, but also ahead of Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, and Mewtwo.

 

[Noipoi]

All Square Enix reps: The only way I can see these characters back in the base roster is if they go the Ultimate Deluxe route. If they don't, they'll probably be all cut and made DLC again, so we'll lose Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and Sora.
Steve: Despite Minecraft's massive fame, Steve was very difficult to implement in the game, and required the full rework of all 100+ stages in the game so that his gimmick could function properly. And I don't know if Sakurai would want to go through that again, so Steve will get the axe.
Pokémon Trainer: Here's another character that was very difficult to include. This is essentially three fully unique characters in one, and thus they have three times the workload of your average fighter. I think that without Everyone is Here they'll probably be cut and Charizard will be on his own again like in Smash 4.
Ike: Looks like I'm cutting FE down by two fighters, and I was torn between cutting either Roy or Ike, but due to Roy's greater legacy in Smash I decided to give the spot to him and cut Ike.

Sorry pal, but I gotta callout these predictions in particular.

Ike is here to stay, he's part of the family.

Steve is too big a deal and they have a good relationship with Microsoft, both him and Banjo are coming back, I guarantee it.

Iirc, Pokemon Trainer was considered too difficult for the 3DS version, but we ain't on the 3DS no more.

With Square specifically, I definitely don't think they'll all be base game, but I could see one or two. Like Cloud or Hero.

 

[UserKev]

While we're also on the topic of cuts, who's one character you absolutely rallying behind full force for next Smash? I feel this could be another partial interesting or fun topic.

What's one character who has your full 100% support for Smash 6?

 

[BritishGuy54]

Here's a (potentially controversial) question that has been at the front of my mind recently: How many characters would another Smash game need to have to find reasonable critical or commercial success?

I think 50 is the bare minimum, but that'd have to be a roster where literally every character is a big hitter and all of the newcomers are universally beloved. 60+ characters is probably a safer number, IMO.

I think it’s more than likely that the next game won’t be as commercially successful as Ultimate. Even if it’s a hard reboot, or Ultimate Deluxe, or a traditional sequel.

I’d say anything below 40 is a no-go. I don’t get why some rosters go that low, especially reboots, which is why I don’t like that idea.

I’d be happy with a range between 50-65 characters.

I guarantee that there will be at least one newcomer who is ‘hated’ by the vocal minority of the community (mainly Twitter and Reddit). My guess it’ll be the new FE/Pokémon/Xenoblade character, and/or a Mario rep who is not Geno or Waluigi.

I think the next game may lean towards roster depth (especially of franchises that gained more prominence in the Switch era) compared to roster diversity.

 

[Louie G.]

Ike: Looks like I'm cutting FE down by two fighters, and I was torn between cutting either Roy or Ike, but due to Roy's greater legacy in Smash I decided to give the spot to him and cut Ike.

Ike is quite literally the most popular Fire Emblem character. I'm not saying he's an absolute lock, but he's leagues beyond Roy and it's not close.

I made one recently of what I'd want the base roster to look like in my ideal Smash reboot.

I admire the challenge that you're going for here, although I just have to say I'm honestly annoyed when people advocate for a literal faceless Tetris block over an actual character from a puzzle game like Arle or Lip, lol. I'd advocate for more Tetris content in general, maybe a stage or an AT but I think this is a major leap and that there are far better options for playable characters within the realm of feasibility.

And Dedede doesn't need a rework, he's fine. At a certain point we reach arbitrary reworks for the sake of freshness that ignore character authenticity. Dedede as you control him in RTDL or Star Allies is not even that far off from the Smash version, and he even started throwing gordos in the main series as of Forgotten Land. I realize this kind of roster is pretty difficult to get right so I'm not trying to be too unreasonable, that's just the stuff that jumps out at me.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly, I think the biggest possible shift with third party characters isn't the companies proving to be a problem as much as it is Nintendo potentially wanting different fighters for it, maybe even from the same company. SNK's constantly geared towards crossovers, Konami's relying on the Switch for its modest releases in the Japanese market, Sega tries to put anything practical on Switch (even Atlus games), Namco has a solid shot at developing the next SSB, Capcom has loads of different IP's to promote, and Microsoft is big on pushing the brand even on non-Xboxs at points.

SE is the biggest X-Factor given their preference for their characters as DLC rather than base game and even then, that's likely negotiable depending on what Nintendo goes for fighter wise.

 

[BritishGuy54]

While we're also on the topic of cuts, who's one character you absolutely rallying behind full force for next Smash? I feel this could be another partial interesting or fun topic.

What's one character who has your full 100% support for Smash 6?

I will stand on the hill that Pyra and Mythra absolutely deserve to stay in Smash.

I get why people cut FE characters. There’s eight of them. But Xenoblade? That’s only on two. And if we get Noah next game, that’ll be three.

As a fan of Xenoblade and Smash, I can see Shulk and Pythra being the ones to always come back every game (at least for the foreseeable future), and then the others get swapped out from time to time.

 

[RileyXY1]

Sorry pal, but I gotta callout these predictions in particular.

Ike is here to stay, he's part of the family.

Steve is too big a deal and they have a good relationship with Microsoft, both him and Banjo are coming back, I guarantee it.

Iirc, Pokemon Trainer was considered too difficult for the 3DS version, but we ain't on the 3DS no more.

With Square specifically, I definitely don't think they'll all be base game, but I could see one or two. Like Cloud or Hero.

With Steve and Pokémon Trainer specifically, the workload for them is far too massive for them to bring back. Steve's gimmick was the most intensive gimmick yet and required Sakurai to modify 100+ stages just to get him to work, and Pokémon Trainer as I mentioned has three times the workload of a standard fighter. Sakurai scrapping Rex in favor of Pyra & Mythra only fuels my speculation that Steve and Pokémon Trainer are getting the axe. As for Ike, I think that FE is getting serious cuts and everyone is just bigger than him besides Corrin, plus his games weren't exactly big successes with Radiant Dawn flopping so hard it almost killed the franchise and we wouldn't have another mainline FE game on home consoles until Three Houses. And as for the Square Enix reps SE has a fixation on wanting all their characters to be DLC, and we even saw this outside of Smash with Noctis's appearance in Tekken 7 and 2B's appearance in Soul Calibur 6. I think that Everyone is Here was the only reason we even had Cloud in Smash, and that in order to do that he had to make a concession with Square Enix that he would add another Final Fantasy 7 character as DLC.

 

[NintenRob]

Ike.... is tricky.

Not counting the Echos. Ike is the least interesting. He just is. Marth is the original, swift and precise. Roy has a cool fire sword. Robin has a bunch of Magic. Corrin turns into a goat and Byleth has a bunch of weapons. Ike is just a slightly bigger sword. But a bigger sword isn't particularly interesting anymore in the context of Smash, not with the likes of Cloud and his buster sword. He's also visually uninteresting falling right into that blue haired swordie with a cape


But! Ike is also like THE most popular Fire Emblem character. He won the fire Fire Emblem Heroes poll and it wasn't even close. We like Ike! He fights for his friends.


It's a tough call. If you have to cut two Fire Emblem characters. I feel like Marth and Byleth and fairly safe. But one of the white haired dudes are probably out, and then it's between Ike and Roys.



Roy is more similar to Marth moveset wise but I'll admit I'd probably prefer to keep Roy with his cool red hair and Fiery Sword.

 

[cashregister9]

Honestly the closer we get to the 1000th discussion about cuts, the more I realize that when the next Smash game comes along we will probably get all of the First party characters back regardless, unless it is like a massive paradigm shift.

 

[Noipoi]

With Steve and Pokémon Trainer specifically, the workload for them is far too massive for them to bring back. Steve's gimmick was the most intensive gimmick yet and required Sakurai to modify 100+ stages just to get him to work, and Pokémon Trainer as I mentioned has three times the workload of a standard fighter. Sakurai scrapping Rex in favor of Pyra & Mythra only fuels my speculation that Steve and Pokémon Trainer are getting the axe. As for Ike, I think that FE is getting serious cuts and everyone is just bigger than him besides Corrin, plus his games weren't exactly big successes with Radiant Dawn flopping so hard it almost killed the franchise and we wouldn't have another mainline FE game on home consoles until Three Houses. And as for the Square Enix reps SE has a fixation on wanting all their characters to be DLC, and we even saw this outside of Smash with Noctis's appearance in Tekken 7 and 2B's appearance in Soul Calibur 6. I think that Everyone is Here was the only reason we even had Cloud in Smash, and that in order to do that he had to make a concession with Square Enix that he would add another Final Fantasy 7 character as DLC.

The only one I’ll concede a little bit to is Squeenix. They are very stingy with wanting their characters to be dlc, and just because I think they’ll play nicer next time doesn’t necessarily mean they will.

Ike is probably one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters. And he has seniority. He ain’t going anywhere, period. +10 points for dropping Corrin though, good ****.

Yeah it took a while to code all the stages for Steve, but that’s because they weren’t built with him in mind. Any stages in a new game will be. Just because something happened one way before doesn’t mean it’ll happen the same way again, have a little imagination my friend.

And the same logic applies to Pokemon Trainer. It may have been difficult before, but don’t you think they may have learned a little something from that experience and perhaps it won’t be so hard next time?

 

[Opossum]

When it comes to cuts, I actually think that clone fighters are more likely to stay than go due to the very minimal time and manpower that went into their inclusion.

I don't know why people say this when the opposite has been true more often than not.

Out of the eleven characters who have been cut in Smash's history, six of them were some degree of being derivative (Roy, Pichu, Doctor Mario, Young Link, Lucas, Wolf). When you consider that the other five were either cut explicitly due to hardware limitations (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Ice Climbers), were planned but scrapped on a pre-DLC console (Mewtwo), or had implied licensing issues (Snake), derivative characters are by far the most commonly cut characters.

There will undoubtedly be a few derivative characters next time. But for the Echo/Melee clone types, they'll likely be limited to a select few tossed in as bonuses toward the end of development: that's what they've basically always been thus far.

 

[NintenRob]

While we're also on the topic of cuts, who's one character you absolutely rallying behind full force for next Smash? I feel this could be another partial interesting or fun topic.

What's one character who has your full 100% support for Smash 6?

R.O.B.


The little dude gets put on the cut list way too often. And it happens every time when it comes to a new Smash cycle. Dude doesn't get the respect he deserves.

 

[Noipoi]

While we're also on the topic of cuts, who's one character you absolutely rallying behind full force for next Smash? I feel this could be another partial interesting or fun topic.

What's one character who has your full 100% support for Smash 6?

I will fight and claw and bite and scream and cry for K Rool.

We just got him back we can’t lose him again.

 

[fogbadge]

I will stand on the hill that Pyra and Mythra absolutely deserve to stay in Smash.

I get why people cut FE characters. There’s eight of them. But Xenoblade? That’s only on two. And if we get Noah next game, that’ll be three.

As a fan of Xenoblade and Smash, I can see Shulk and Pythra being the ones to always come back every game (at least for the foreseeable future), and then the others get swapped out from time to time.

must be a very small hill

 

[Louie G.]

What's one character who has your full 100% support for Smash 6?

Like, newcomer or veteran-wise? Since I've talked plenty about new characters I'd like to see, I'll just emphasize veterans who might be on the bubble and I staunchly want to see come back.

Little Mac was my most wanted character in Smash 4, and it's hard to think of many other characters I'd want to see who hold the same importance to me. Even though I've got my gripes with how he plays, that's a matter of circumstance which (as corny as it sounds) is not his fault. Punch-Out is a legacy series that absolutely deserves to be here, but has not been dealt a favorable hand and even lacks certain standard representation such as an Assist Trophy... being treated more on the level of Ice Climber or Duck Hunt when Punch-Out is at least on the level of Earthbound or Kid Icarus. I would like him to come back and, aside from the obvious tweaks and buffs I'd like to see in order to make him a more viable character, I just want to see Punch-Out treated with the amount of love and respect that some of these other series get. If he was cut I would be heartbroken.

And screw it, I'm going to defend Min Min. Because despite how maligned and ridiculed ARMS is, or how annoying she is to fight, ARMS is the most recent new IP on the roster and quite frankly we don't have all that many more of those to add from the Switch era. I see people cutting Min Min all the time and then adding on "relevant" characters like Raven Beak or Mio / Noah, neglecting the fresh faces that were added through DLC to keep the roster contemporary to take one step forward and another backwards. I'm not the biggest ARMS-head in the world or anything, I just recognize that everyone has been inconsistent with their judgement here just because... ARMS is cringe I guess? Everyone needs to get over it, I'd be surprised if she isn't back.

Oh, also Isabelle. Like, if you're cutting Isabelle, you're just not paying attention.

I will stand on the hill that Pyra and Mythra absolutely deserve to stay in Smash.

I'm gonna echo this too. They finally nailed the swap mechanic with these two, going for more of a stance change essence and as such letting it feel very fluid and complementary to one another. This is the perfect form of this kind of character. Pyra and Mythra are striking me the same way that once upon a time, Ike did. Some people contemplated that Ike might be cut in favor of a new FE character for Smash 4, but ignored his massive popularity and Fire Emblem's substantial growth. Pyra and Mythra are BIG characters, they may very well be the most popular characters in the Xenoblade series to date. You could argue the ethics of why this is, but it doesn't make it any less true. And yet again, they're a popular Switch-era character and those are not in high supply at the moment. They stay, and on top of that Byleth probably does too.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I love this song so much and it works so well for me in Smash especially on the bridge of eldin and the lighting is just barely dusk-like, the whole atmosphere of this combination is quite moving and whenever I'm playing and it's this it's like a big dose of contentment.

It isn't a true Smash Machinima if this song doesn't play at least once.

Bonus point if this is feature for Ganondorf as the main villain

While we're also on the topic of cuts, who's one character you absolutely rallying behind full force for next Smash? I feel this could be another partial interesting or fun topic.

What's one character who has your full 100% support for Smash 6?

Geno ofc. The Remake definitely put the wind back in the sails for full support.

Wish i could say the same for Shadow but he had his literal best chance to be "Ultimate" but easily neglected so i don't think he'll make the cut.

Also would for Rival Octoling but i'm 90% sure Nintendo will want to go for the playable Octo instead

 

[Noipoi]

As much as Xenoblade 2’s character designs give me a rash, Pyra/Mythra are fun characters who should probably stick around.

 

[NintenRob]

I don't know why people say this when the opposite has been true more often than not.

Out of the eleven characters who have been cut in Smash's history, six of them were some degree of being derivative (Roy, Pichu, Doctor Mario, Young Link, Lucas, Wolf). When you consider that the other five were either cut explicitly due to hardware limitations (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Ice Climbers), were planned but scrapped on a pre-DLC console (Mewtwo), or had implied licensing issues (Snake), derivative characters are by far the most commonly cut characters.

There will undoubtedly be a few derivative characters next time. But for the Echo/Melee clone types, they'll likely be limited to a select few tossed in as bonuses toward the end of development: that's what they've basically always been thus far.

I feel like Echo fighters are a different ballpark to the Melee clones. And I feel people are too quick to group them

Melee clones have significantly more differences. And due to those differences were likely balanced in accordance to the whole roster.


Echo fighters are different. The differences are minimal and quiet purposely so. They are so similar to their original versions, that they're essentially alts. That's basically how I view echo fighters. Spruced up alts. It's probably why we can stack them on the roster. And originally being alts is why Lucina and Dark Pit are playable to begin with. Ken I'll admit is more of an outlier, but when it comes to balancing, they're only balanced alongside their original versions.


And because they're basically alts with very minimal development time (more so than the Melee group). I don't really see many of them getting cut if their original counterparts also return.

 

[Opossum]

With Steve and Pokémon Trainer specifically, the workload for them is far too massive for them to bring back. Steve's gimmick was the most intensive gimmick yet and required Sakurai to modify 100+ stages just to get him to work, and Pokémon Trainer as I mentioned has three times the workload of a standard fighter. Sakurai scrapping Rex in favor of Pyra & Mythra only fuels my speculation that Steve and Pokémon Trainer are getting the axe. As for Ike, I think that FE is getting serious cuts and everyone is just bigger than him besides Corrin, plus his games weren't exactly big successes with Radiant Dawn flopping so hard it almost killed the franchise and we wouldn't have another mainline FE game on home consoles until Three Houses. And as for the Square Enix reps SE has a fixation on wanting all their characters to be DLC, and we even saw this outside of Smash with Noctis's appearance in Tekken 7 and 2B's appearance in Soul Calibur 6. I think that Everyone is Here was the only reason we even had Cloud in Smash, and that in order to do that he had to make a concession with Square Enix that he would add another Final Fantasy 7 character as DLC.

They literally gave Ike a commercially-available made-in-house $200 1/7 scale statue.

Characters from the Tellius games do incredibly well on the yearly CYL polls for Heroes despite the sales of the games, with Ike literally getting the highest vote count in the first event, and Micaiah and Soren joining him on the winner's podium in subsequent years. Ike and the rest of those characters are hugely popular in spite of the sales of those games.

They know he's bankable. They're not stupid. Ike is genuinely never going anywhere, and I'd stick to that claim even in the case of a 40 character roster. And yes, they would 100% cut Roy before Ike. They've literally done it before.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I admire the challenge that you're going for here, although I just have to say I'm honestly annoyed when people advocate for a literal faceless Tetris block over an actual character from a puzzle game like Arle or Lip, lol. I'd advocate for more Tetris content in general, maybe a stage or an AT but I think this is a major leap and that there are far better options for playable characters within the realm of feasibility.

And Dedede doesn't need a rework, he's fine. At a certain point we reach arbitrary reworks for the sake of freshness that ignore character authenticity. Dedede as you control him in RTDL or Star Allies is not even that far off from the Smash version, and he even started throwing gordos in the main series as of Forgotten Land. I realize this kind of roster is pretty difficult to get right so I'm not trying to be too unreasonable, that's just the stuff that jumps out at me.

Appreciate the feedback. Regarding Dedede, there are several things holding him back; I'm not changing him for the sake of changing him. Down special is a fun fear factor but I'd want something with more utility, and Gordos are an active detriment to him most of the time; I'd either rework that move or change it entirely. Dedede is more of a case where I'd rework him in the sense of replacing Down B and Side B, as well as adjusting his overall movement physics to better fit into a game like Smash, and making his existing moves more exaggerated with better sound design, and giving him his 64/Forgotten Land design; that's enough to shake-up the character in my eyes without being egregious. He's kinda bad in Ultimate.

Tetris is an interesting case, I don't want the literal block as a fighter, but for the sake of time I went with the picture I did. Smash re-contextualizes some characters for the game (Icies became cryomancers, and ROB became an advanced hyper-tech robot with all these bells and whistles), and I am picturing a similar deal here. Tetris in Smash is presented as an etheral anomaly, being shown as four floating, white glowing cubes that can quickly shift and re-arrange itself (themselves?) into the different pieces. I think this pseudo-alien take could be cool for it and can be used to justify literal blocks fighting. Like, Tetris is just this thing that showed up one day and nobody in-universe really knows what to think of it. It's like Mr. Game & Watch in that sense, with G&W being an entity that has no sense of right or wrong and can be exploited for an infinite number of Shadow Bugs, apparently.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

And because they're basically alts with very minimal development time (more so than the Melee group). I don't really see many of them getting cut if their original counterparts also return.

Not sure about that. I mean Echo Fighters don't have to be the same each game carrying over.

Yeah, they are easy to develop so wouldn't it make more sense so use those resources to add new echos on the roster instead off adding old echo ontop of new characters?

 

[Louie G.]

Appreciate the feedback. Regarding Dedede, there are several things holding him back; I'm not changing him for the sake of changing him. Down special is a fun fear factor but I'd want something with more utility, and Gordos are an active detriment to him most of the time; I'd either rework that move or change it entirely. Dedede is more of a case where I'd rework him in the sense of replacing Down B and Side B, as well as adjusting his overall movement physics to better fit into a game like Smash, and making his existing moves more exaggerated with better sound design, and giving him his 64/Forgotten Land design; that's enough to shake-up the character in my eyes without being egregious. He's kinda bad in Ultimate.

Take it from someone who mains the character, Gordos are not a detriment. Sure, I think they might benefit from a little more durability so you're not just getting it sent back from any wimpy little jab. But as is, they are a fundamental part of his entire gameplan and a big reason why myself and I presume many others enjoy playing him so much. It's a projectile with interesting flexibility... you can ledge trap, you can stick it to the stage. You can inhale it and spit it back out. You can be unpredictable with three different angles, you can pressure opponents by throwing one out and running in for the grab. It moves slow, so if you're lucky you can even throw an opponent into it while it's active. Most other moves in the game wish they had this amount of sheer versatility! You almost take for granted how much fun it is until you map it out like this. This move absolutely needs to stay, and I wouldn't complain (at all) if it was buffed but I would be devastated to lose it. It's everything to Dedede.

Down B... I dunno, I would miss it less, but Jet Hammer is obviously mirroring Hammer Flip and that's pretty important to have around. Nor is it something I would be willing to sacrifice Dedede's iconic forward smash for. It's even quite good at catching opponents on the edge, it's not a completely useless move and sometimes is even a more optimal punish than the aforementioned f-smash. I'd sooner replace it on Kirby than Dedede, although I'd like to hear what alternative ideas you have in mind. Physics, sound design, I guess I'm open to it although I don't want him to feel entirely different to control. I love his 64 design but I can give or take it in Smash, personally.

Tetris is an interesting case, I don't want the literal block as a fighter, but for the sake of time I went with the picture I did. Smash re-contextualizes some characters for the game (Icies became cryomancers, and ROB became an advanced hyper-tech robot with all these bells and whistles), and I am picturing a similar deal here. Tetris in Smash is presented as an etheral anomaly, being shown as four floating, white glowing cubes that can quickly shift and re-arrange itself (themselves?) into the different pieces. I think this pseudo-alien take could be cool for it and can be used to justify literal blocks fighting. Like, Tetris is just this thing that showed up one day and nobody in-universe really knows what to think of it. It's like Mr. Game & Watch in that sense, with G&W being an entity that has no sense of right or wrong and can be exploited for an infinite number of Shadow Bugs, apparently.

I'd still greatly prefer either of the characters I mentioned to be the basis for a puzzle game inspired moveset in Smash, but I respect the creativity.

 

[NintenRob]

Not sure about that. I mean Echo Fighters don't have to be the same each game carrying over.

Yeah, they are easy to develop so wouldn't it make more sense so use those resources to add new echos on the roster instead off adding old echo ontop of new characters?

Oh yeah, I could potentially see some echoes swapped out for others. But I don't think all 7 echoes would even be the equivalent of a single character.

 

[Louie G.]

I imagine some echoes will slip through the cracks, others will stick around and hopefully even see upgrades. Like the Melee -> Brawl jump. Personally I think Daisy and Lucina are the safest to return - Daisy because she's only gotten more prevalent since she was added to Ultimate, and Lucina because I think a "beginner Marth" might be a concept they find appealing to keep around. She's also just generally a popular character, and her one difference already makes her feel quite a bit different. Whereas Daisy has a lot of room to be expanded on Falco-style.

I also think it's safe to say that provided Simon returns, Richter probably will too. Sakurai emphasized that they were developed alongside one another and borrow heavily from each other's games, so they feel like kind of a package deal. In this case we probably wouldn't see them made too different from one another, although I'd be curious to see them apply some more distinct properties to holy water or maybe the amount of hits on the Up B. Or maybe even go the Marth / Lucina route and give them different sweetspots, or something.

I think Ken has a fair shot of returning too, although I'm less certain under the guise that I expect another Street Fighter character. If Chun-Li gets added, they might just let her have a turn and keep Ken lower priority. Or maybe it would be cool to have all three, I dunno. But ignoring that, Ken is one of the more fleshed out echo fighters and a popular character in his own right, so he's got a solid case for himself at least.

Less sure about Dark Samus, although I'd like her to come back. Dark Pit is expendable, and Chrom relies on Roy who is already on the bubble.