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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

PeridotGX

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Well, it was bizarre while it lasted.

That said, if there's anything you should be ashamed of, you prevented me from starting and playing Klonoa for the first time because your post made me quickly switch out of Phantasy Reverie to Smash Bros to possibly see unannounced content.
I mean, I already feel pretty ashamed about the whole thing. I made the spur-of-the-moment decision to post a server injoke as a meme, betraying the trust of everyone on there. For the record, nobody else on the server condoned it, it was just me. But I'll take another reason to feel bad! The more the merrier:4larry:!
 

NintenRob

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So here's a topic. How would we feel if the next Smash Bros game was given an extended development time? Similar to Tears of the Kingdom and Mario Wonder.


It feels appropriate. Following up Ultimate is a colossus undertaking that an extended development time may ease the pressure. It may allow for a similar sized roster whilst including some of the joys that a larger roster would otherwise remove (unique target test, classic mode videos, ect) and bring back the likes of Trophies and Event Matches too.
 

JOJONumber691

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I would 100% be on board with that tbh. Gives us the opportunity for a LOT of Singleplayer and Better Netcode, even if the Roster isn’t going to be as big.
 

dream1ng

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So here's a topic. How would we feel if the next Smash Bros game was given an extended development time? Similar to Tears of the Kingdom and Mario Wonder.


It feels appropriate. Following up Ultimate is a colossus undertaking that an extended development time may ease the pressure. It may allow for a similar sized roster whilst including some of the joys that a larger roster would otherwise remove (unique target test, classic mode videos, ect) and bring back the likes of Trophies and Event Matches too.
I guess it's a question of a bigger game or a nearer game. I think most people here would probably choose the former given while it's been a while since Ultimate launched, but it hasn't been that long since the characters stopped, compared to how long some of the waits used to be.

While I don't think that's what we're set for, what I do think is that this game is going to be more live service-like in its rollout to compensate. Like, it'll start with a reduced roster and reduced other stuff, but Studio S, I believe, exists primarily for Smash development. So most of the team won't leave after base with a reduced crew working on DLC. This will probably afford more things added after launch than Ultimate had, i.e. character passes and costumes, but also more modes and potentially stages and other possible content. Given that and how some vets will probably be cut to return as DLC, it will likely mean more frequent character drops as well.

So the development probably will be bigger not insofar as working on the game longer prior to release, but in the sense a bigger team will keep working on it post-launch rather than shed its numbers to a smaller crew. Which works better for a game like Smash than TotK or Wonder.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I wasn't in on the prank, but I'm in the server where Veld is a meme.

I saw that man and knew exactly what's up. The only Veld fans are ironic Veld fans (and I'm one of them).
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Bruh how the hell am I supposed to beat the 13 sentinels without using spirits.

Sakurai had to come back 3 years later just to ruin my perfect score, didn't he?
 

dream1ng

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Pokemon, Mario Kart, and any number of other fighting game series often make significant cuts from title to title. This is normal. You think the next Mario Kart is going to have all of 8D's content? The games still sell because of the characters/courses present, the new stuff, the gameplay, and the brand name.

Saying Smash is different because of how few cuts its received over time is just a testament to the entitlement of the fanbase and why, from that perspective, the eventual culling will help snap the fanbase back to the reality of genres like this and unsustainable expansion. At some point using the Smash 4 data will make development too cost ineffective against their current technology that Nintendo won't greenlight a game with that conceit. And starting again simply won't make hitting old numbers feasible. Just from a logistics perspective, the roster being reduced is inevitable. Even if it's not with this next game (though I think it will be - their base is twelve years old at this point), eventually it is.

The next Smash will have some sort of new hook as a part of it - they all have something - but a game that has Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, DK, Villager, Inkling, Sonic, Pac-Man, Cloud, etc., plus a normal amount of hype newcomers, a bigass marketing budget and is called Smash Bros. will sell. The fanbase may complain about the quantity of cuts, but that doesn't mean it won't perform well critically and commercially.

they didn't put in the series name for these spirits just like the noah and mio spirit. either someones screwing up over there or this could mean """something"""

There's no reason not to have their series listed here. I agree it's odd, but it's almost certainly an oversight.

Like, what, is there going to be a 13 Sentinels character? I kinda doubt it.
 

DarthEnderX

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Pokemon, Mario Kart, and any number of other fighting game series often make significant cuts from title to title.
Yeah, and Pokemon fans get just as ****ed-off when it happens in Pokemon.

You think the next Mario Kart is going to have all of 8D's content?
It should. Nothing that a MK9 is going to add is going to make people happier than having 96+ courses does.

They'd be better off making Mario Kart 8 Deluxe Deluxe.

Saying Smash is different because of how few cuts its received over time is just a testament to the entitlement of the fanbase and why, from that perspective, the eventual culling will help snap the fanbase back to the reality of genres like this and unsustainable expansion.
Pokemon, Mario Kart and Smash are 3 of the most profitable series in all of video games. It's NOT unsustainable for them. Nintendo is just deciding not to pay to sustain it. Even though they easily could.
 

Gengar84

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actually most pokemon fans stopped complaining when they got the games
Did they? I bought the games but I’m still not happy about the dex cut. I would totally understand the cuts if in return we got a really polished game with a ton of post game content but we’re getting significantly less than we did before the cuts. Just compare Sword and Shield to Platinum or Heart Gold/Soul Silver. Those games were packed with content and the Battle Resort gave us a ton to do with our trained Pokemon without the need to just play online battles. The Switch games have been glitchy messes that have very minimal post game content until DLC. Even during the main campaign, the final dungeon is Sword/Shield is just an elevator with a few set battles and nothing to actually explore. Scarlet/Violet was a step up but even after all the DLC in Scarlet/Violet, we still have nothing on the level of the Battle Resort. I still buy and enjoy the games because I’m a big fan of the collecting and battling aspect in general and it’s fun to discover new Pokémon but I feel like the games can be so much more than what they currently are.
 
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NintenRob

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Did they? I bought the games but I’m still not happy about the dex cut. I would totally understand the cuts if in return we got a really polished game with a ton of post game content but we’re getting significantly less than we did before the cuts. Just compare Sword and Shield to Platinum or Heart Gold/Soul Silver. Those games were packed with content and the Battle Resort gave us a ton to do with our trained Pokemon without the need to just play online battles. The Switch games have been glitchy messes that have very minimal post game content until DLC. Even during the main campaign, the final dungeon is Sword/Shield is just an elevator with a few set battles and nothing to actually explore. Scarlet/Violet was a step up but even after all the DLC in Scarlet/Violet, we still have nothing on the level of the Battle Resort. I still buy and enjoy the games because I’m a big fan of the collecting and battling aspect in general and it’s fun to discover new Pokémon but I feel like the games can be so much more than what they currently are.
There's certainly loads to complain about with Pokémon. But with Dex cut specifically, you could say Pokémon fans have moved because they realised there was significantly worse things going on. (As in they started complaining about other stuff instead)
 

fogbadge

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Did they? I bought the games but I’m still not happy about the dex cut. I would totally understand the cuts if in return we got a really polished game with a ton of post game content but we’re getting significantly less than we did before the cuts. Just compare Sword and Shield to Platinum or Heart Gold/Soul Silver. Those games were packed with content and the Battle Resort gave us a ton to do with our trained Pokemon without the need to just play online battles. The Switch games have been glitchy messes that have very minimal post game content until DLC. Even then, after all the DLC in Scarlet/Violet, we still have nothing on the level of the Battle Resort. I still buy and enjoy the games because I’m a big fan of the collecting and battling aspect in general and it’s fun to discover new Pokémon but I feel like the games can be so much more than what they currently are.
well you see gengar you’ve hit upon the difference between yourself and the fandom as a whole. they were unbelievably vocal when it first happened and brought it up at every opportunity but a soon as the game was out people calmed down and only brought it up every once in a while. and I personally have spent more time in the post game of sword and shield and scarlet and violet than I ever did in the battle resort
 

Gengar84

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There's certainly loads to complain about with Pokémon. But with Dex cut specifically, you could say Pokémon fans have moved because they realised there was significantly worse things going on. (As in they started complaining about other stuff instead)
Yeah, like I said, I could live with the dex cuts if it meant that the games were going to be significantly better in return. It looks like the opposite is happening. I have no idea how a franchise as big and profitable as Pokemon can release a game in the state that Scarlet and Violet was released. It was still fun because it’s Pokemon but at the same time, it was so disappointing in many ways. Just compare the graphics of S/V to other big Switch games like Breath of the Wild or Xenoblade. It looks like the games aren’t even in the same generation. The same goes for the animations. It’s kind of sad when you still don’t have as good of animations of the Pokemon Stadium N64 games. If we’re going to live with these low production values, at least let us play with all the Pokemon.

well you see gengar you’ve hit upon the difference between yourself and the fandom as a whole. they were unbelievably vocal when it first happened and brought it up at every opportunity but a soon as the game was out people calmed down and only brought it up every once in a while. and I personally have spent more time in the post game of sword and shield and scarlet and violet than I ever did in the battle resort
Honestly, I think I’ve spent more time with S/V’s DLC than I did with Battle Resort too. The difference is, a lot of that felt like busy work just to get the resources to train the Pokémon I wanted to. At first, it was a nice change of pace from grinding the tournament over and over for money but the blueberry quests get pretty repetitive after a couple of days. With the Battle Resort, I felt like it actually gave me something to do with all the Pokémon I raised. Now, I raise a Pokemon to 100 and then never use them again. Raising a Pokemon is definitely a lot faster now than it used to be but I wish I could actually do something with them without needing to pay for online.
 
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fogbadge

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Yeah, like I said, I could live with the dex cuts if it meant that the games were going to be significantly better in return. It looks like the opposite is happening. I have no idea how a franchise as big and profitable as Pokemon can release a game in the state that Scarlet and Violet was released. It was still fun because it’s Pokemon but at the same time, it was so disappointing in many ways. Just compare the graphics of S/V to other big Switch games like Breath of the Wild or Xenoblade. It looks like the games aren’t even in the same generation. The same goes for the animations. It’s kind of sad when you still don’t have as good of animations of the Pokemon Stadium N64 games. If we’re going to live with these low production values, at least let us play with all the Pokemon.


Honestly, I think I’ve spent more time with S/V’s DLC than I did with Battle Resort too. The difference is, a lot of that felt like busy work just to get the resources to train the Pokémon I wanted to. At first, it was a nice change of pace from grinding the tournament over and over for money but the blueberry quests get pretty repetitive after a couple of days. With the Battle Resort, I felt like it actually gave me something to do with all the Pokémon I raised. Now, I raise a Pokemon to 100 and then never use them again. Raising a Pokemon is definitely a lot faster now than it used to be but I wish I could actually do something with them without needing to pay for online.
I can explain that. see botw and xenoblade were both in development for five years with them being the major focus of the devs. Pokemon was in development for three years with the devs working on several other projects at the same time. with an attitude pretty similar to when they were making sprite based games.

I think that’s more down to the experience you wanted to have vs the experience they were making. and sure the bbq got repetitive fast but I’ve seen this nonsense in a lot of games lately so I don’t hold it against them. but beyond that I was still enjoying wondering about, taking on raids and finding the odd shiny
 

Gengar84

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I can explain that. see botw and xenoblade were both in development for five years with them being the major focus of the devs. Pokemon was in development for three years with the devs working on several other projects at the same time. with an attitude pretty similar to when they were making sprite based games.

I think that’s more down to the experience you wanted to have vs the experience they were making. and sure the bbq got repetitive fast but I’ve seen this nonsense in a lot of games lately so I don’t hold it against them. but beyond that I was still enjoying wondering about, taking on raids and finding the odd shiny
Yeah, I’m not denying that there were fun parts of the game. I did put hundreds of hours into it, which I don’t do for most other games. It’s not that I didn’t enjoy my time with it, I’m just disappointed that the series could be so much more than it is right now. Since Pokémon is the most profitable IP ever, you’d think they could afford a bigger development team with more experience in making modern games. A longer development cycle would also help but I suspect GameFreak just isn’t talented enough at making 3D games and should probably seek some outside help if they can’t handle it alone.
 

NintenRob

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well you see gengar you’ve hit upon the difference between yourself and the fandom as a whole. they were unbelievably vocal when it first happened and brought it up at every opportunity but a soon as the game was out people calmed down and only brought it up every once in a while. and I personally have spent more time in the post game of sword and shield and scarlet and violet than I ever did in the battle resort
Gonna disagree with you on this on Fog. I definitely don't think people calmed down, if anything they got angrier. Only it became about more than just cutting the Dex. People tore the games to shreds for it's bad graphics, terrible level design, piss easy difficulty, bad graphics, reuse of Pokémon models, experience share and bad graphics.


remember the Tree?
 

Gengar84

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Gonna disagree with you on this on Fog. I definitely don't think people calmed down, if anything they got angrier. Only it became about more than just cutting the Dex. People tore the games to shreds for it's bad graphics, terrible level design, piss easy difficulty, bad graphics, reuse of Pokémon models, experience share and bad graphics.


remember the Tree?
I’ll give Scarlet and Violet credit on the actual Pokemon and trainer models. Many of the Pokemon look a good deal better now than they did in past games. The animations still need a lot of work but I’m mostly content with the actual models now. The environment is another deal though.
 

dream1ng

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Yeah, and Pokemon fans get just as ****ed-off when it happens in Pokemon.
I mean they did for Sw/Sh and then by S/V they knew it was gonna happen and at that point the loudest criticism was the technical side of the game being a buggy, outdated mess. You think anyone is going to still try to boycott Gen 10 for not having the full dex at launch?

More importantly, it didn't affect sales at all. Sw/Sh is the second best selling gen. The masses may have been disappointed, but overall don't really care. And for Smash, where the slipping quality of the Pokemon games won't be a problem, it will presumably also still review quite well. Because most reviewers aren't ass deep inside the Smash fandom and realize that games cutting content between titles is very normal. Especially fighting games.

It should. Nothing that a MK9 is going to add is going to make people happier than having 96+ courses does.
Unless they lean into the crossover angle. I can see people choosing fewer courses but an array of IP over a higher course count. Especially since it won't be 96 courses but it'll still be a good amount, and a lot of new ones, and from many series.

And MK is constantly restarting, cutting previous courses, and the fans have never made a big stink about it. Sure they wish for specific courses they like, but they know this is how it goes for MK, and they're fine with it. Which is how it often works across series that refresh.

I also wholeheartedly disagree that at this point the majority of fans would choose MK8 Deluxe Deluxe over an actual new Mario Kart.

They'd be better off making Mario Kart 8 Deluxe Deluxe.
No, they objectively wouldn't, because people aren't as likely to buy a version of something they already own than something new. Back when all Pokemon games had all the Pokemon (for the most part), the new games still sold better than the remakes. If you look at Street Fighter, the vanilla version of the title always sells better than the iterated updates.

And if there are exceptions to this, it's almost always due to a drastic difference in install bases. I.e., the reason Switch got away with it was because of how few people actually had the Wii U games (and because MK is still MK, it will still sell well even as a port). But now there are, what, like 60 million copies of MK8D out there? They're much better off making MKnext.

Plus, if what you were saying was true, there would never be business sense to start over, but that's what happens all the time. Why do you think they constantly restart these games? You're conflating dreams of the fanbase with the actual market and the realities of development.

Pokemon, Mario Kart and Smash are 3 of the most profitable series in all of video games. It's NOT unsustainable for them. Nintendo is just deciding not to pay to sustain it. Even though they easily could.
"It's not unsustainable if Nintendo abandons all precedent of the the budget size they allocate for these games and opt to continually reuse bases from architecture that will become literally decades out of date!"

And that's why it's unsustainable. Because they won't. You have to keep one foot in reality here.

They don't even need to because stuff like MK proves that the fanbase is fine with content turnover if it's the norm and Sw/Sh proves that doing so doesn't inhibit sales. I empathize with people not wanting to lose characters (I imagine I'll lose some of the ones I use), but that's just not realistic in the big picture.
 
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fogbadge

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Yeah, I’m not denying that there were fun parts of the game. I did put hundreds of hours into it, which I don’t do for most other games. It’s not that I didn’t enjoy my time with it, I’m just disappointed that the series could be so much more than it is right now. Since Pokémon is the most profitable IP ever, you’d think they could afford a bigger development team with more experience in making modern games. A longer development cycle would also help but I suspect GameFreak just isn’t talented enough at making 3D games and should probably seek some outside help if they can’t handle it alone.
I’m certainly not denying that Pokemon would benefit from a longer dev time even if only to smooth things out. but I think whoever is in charge of Pokémon’s purse strings has proven they’re probably not that s

Gonna disagree with you on this on Fog. I definitely don't think people calmed down, if anything they got angrier. Only it became about more than just cutting the Dex. People tore the games to shreds for it's bad graphics, terrible level design, piss easy difficulty, bad graphics, reuse of Pokémon models, experience share and bad graphics.


remember the Tree?
that’s complaining about two different things. and I don’t recall any time when gamers were complaining about the graphics in something. game breaking bugs, sure that makes sense, but frame rate drops? Good grief

also what tree?
 

DarthEnderX

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You think anyone is going to still try to boycott Gen 10 for not having the full dex at launch?
So there's no middle ground between "completely satisfied" and "boycott"? Someone can't be extremely displeased with something, but still play it?

Is that the only metric you have for measuring audience satisfaction? "Well it didn't get cancelled, so I guess everyone is fine with it."

Unless they lean into the crossover angle.
Fair enough. Super Smash Karts would probably get people more excited than more Mario Kart 8.

And MK is constantly restarting, cutting previous courses, and the fans have never made a big stink about it.
Because 'Everycourse is Here' was literally impossible until now. But now fans have an expectation about what is possible.

No, they objectively wouldn't, because people aren't as likely to buy a version of something they already own than something new.
You can't objectively say that. I can just as easily say people are more likely to buy an even bigger, better version of the biggest best Mario Kart game ever, over a "new" game with a quarter of the content.

"It's not unsustainable if Nintendo abandons all precedent of the the budget size they allocate for these games and opt to continually reuse bases from architecture that will become literally decades out of date!"
looks over at Tekken 8 doing exactly that
 
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NintenRob

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I’m certainly not denying that Pokemon would benefit from a longer dev time even if only to smooth things out. but I think whoever is in charge of Pokémon’s purse strings has proven they’re probably not that s



that’s complaining about two different things. and I don’t recall any time when gamers were complaining about the graphics in something. game breaking bugs, sure that makes sense, but frame rate drops? Good grief

also what tree?
Behold! The most infamous tree in all of Pokémon!
images (14).jpeg
 

dream1ng

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So there's no middle ground between "completely satisfied" and "boycott"? Someone can't be extremely displeased with something, but still play it?

Is that the only metric you have for measuring audience satisfaction? "Well it didn't get cancelled, so I guess everyone is fine with it."
No, I had critical reception, outlining what people were complaining about, and giving examples of backlash lessening. But you have ignored those parts. As is what happens when of two paragraphs you only reply to one sentence.

Because 'Everycourse is Here' was literally impossible until now. But now fans have an expectation about what is possible.
Well apparently not if just ballooning the budget is an argument you think holds weight.

And also fans aren't expecting every course is here. What fans are expecting is... a new Mario Kart.

You can't objectively say that. I can just as easily say people are more likely to buy an even bigger, better version of the biggest best Mario Kart game ever, over a "new" game with a quarter of the content.
On what basis? In examples of parity between install bases, deluxe versions almost never sell as well as new titles. And I don't think the Switch 2 will be on par with the Switch's install base, so I think you'd be working from an inherent disadvantage to the advantage the Switch's install base had over the Wii U's.

Also you ignoring all the statistics and logistics I outline speaks volumes.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Mario Kart not retaining much content from an installment to another is something that comes from a different time imo.
Jumps in technology from a console to another were massive back then. 2d, to crude 3d, to detailed 3d, to HD + online + whatever gimmick most of Nintendo's consoles had. Such a jump, and whatever gimmick a new game would introduce, would take a lot of development time and of course with more limited time they'd prioritize new courses over old ones. DLC didn't exist back then.
Expectations have also changed, the "game as a platform" sorta model didn't exist for a majority of Mario Kart's (and even Smash's) lives, but now it does.

The next console jump, barring some totally crazy gimmick Nintendo would want to introduce with Switch 2, doesn't look like it's going to be particularly drastic though. It will probably just be about better graphics and maybe better AI.
Really can't see why Ultimate's base would be so outdated.
 
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Freduardo

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If I were trying to get away with cutting the roster.... I think the way I'd do it would be multiple versions of the same character. Like different B button move sets.

So you'd have Mario where he's focused from a Mario 3 moveset (tanuki suit down b, racoon tail up b, frog suit side b), focused from mario world (cape side b, p balloon up b, spin jump down b).

Samus with beams and attacks from Super, Fusion, Dread, Prime.

Peach from Mario 2, Peach from Showtime, Peach from Mario RPG

Et cetera.
 

Gengar84

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I’m failing to see the problem
The tree doesn’t look any better than something from the N64 era. I honestly think the later PS2 games like Final Fantasy XII and Kingdom Hearts 2 have better looking environments than Scarlet and Violet but maybe I’m just misremembering the graphics back then.
 

RileyXY1

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An Ultimate Deluxe port would just be redundant unless the Switch 2 does not have backwards compatibility, because otherwise you would be able to play Ultimate as is on the new system. Plus, the Switch has a massive install base so ports of Switch games for the Switch 2 wouldn't make as much sense as Wii U ports for the Switch.
 

Gengar84

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An Ultimate Deluxe port would just be redundant unless the Switch 2 does not have backwards compatibility, because otherwise you would be able to play Ultimate as is on the new system. Plus, the Switch has a massive install base so ports of Switch games for the Switch 2 wouldn't make as much sense as Wii U ports for the Switch.
Yeah, I don’t think we need any kind of deluxe port. I’d Switch 2 is backwards compatible, just keep making more content for the game we already have.
 

fogbadge

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The tree doesn’t look any better than something from the N64 era. I honestly think the later PS2 games like Final Fantasy XII and Kingdom Hearts 2 have better looking environments than Scarlet and Violet but maybe I’m just misremembering the graphics back then.
so?
 

Gengar84

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So the franchise is the most profitable of any IP in history. You’d think they could manage better than PS2 level graphics today. I don’t particularly care about graphics much but there’s not much an excuse for a franchise this big. At the very least, it should be on par with those PS2 games but I don’t think they even reach that point. I’d be a lot more fine with these graphics from a smaller indie developer and I can still have fun with the game despite them but they’re pretty laughable. It’s more a combination of both the cut content and poor production values that gets annoying. I could easily live with one or the other.
 
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smashkirby

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It's a lot more popular than people give credit for, but it still had a lot of unpopularity. Having a self-hurt gimmick, and being a clone didn't help either. Other things like the worst Target Test in the game, and not all were a fan of the baby Pokemon either. Any TCG player would tell you that they were really annoying to deal with.

I love the critter myself. It helps being iconic too(and had some starring side movies). Overall, the only one really dang unpopular was the Spiky-Eared Pichu, less so in the movie, but the terrible game version they created(who can't evolve and has awful stats and an awful permanent 4 moves). She was very cute, though. Credit on that~

Besides that, if Plusle & Minun were intended, they were going to likely replace Pichu in the same way that Toon Link replaced Young Link. Basically created by using the previous version as a base. As well as rotating the cast for the next generation. Clones can be expendable depending upon circumstances.
Honestly, I was one of those who genuinely enjoyed Pichu in Melee. I know its self-damage gimmick was a tad more 'pronounced' there than it was in Ultimate, but I felt as though it attacks hit harder than Pikachu. What's more, I also subscribe to the theory that Plusle and Minun were not only planned for Brawl (Hey, they would have represented Gen. 3, you know), but they also would have used Pichu as a base for their models and animations, the way Toon Link did for Young Link.

As for Spiky-eared Pichu, I do have a question regarding her. It's probably safe to say that since she was simply an alternate costume for Pichu in Ultimate Nintendo (and Bandai-Namco) weren't willing to shell the potential extra money to have her be voiced by Shoko Nakagawa, right?

I admire the challenge that you're going for here, although I just have to say I'm honestly annoyed when people advocate for a literal faceless Tetris block over an actual character from a puzzle game like Arle or Lip, lol. I'd advocate for more Tetris content in general, maybe a stage or an AT but I think this is a major leap and that there are far better options for playable characters within the realm of feasibility.
Not that I wouldn't want Arle in Smash, but... Heck, Lip is even OWNED by Nintendo. I know Tetris is big, but a playable character? Eh...

And Dedede doesn't need a rework, he's fine. At a certain point we reach arbitrary reworks for the sake of freshness that ignore character authenticity. Dedede as you control him in RTDL or Star Allies is not even that far off from the Smash version, and he even started throwing gordos in the main series as of Forgotten Land. I realize this kind of roster is pretty difficult to get right so I'm not trying to be too unreasonable, that's just the stuff that jumps out at me.
I'd like to mention that Dedede tossing Gordos actually started with Star Allies. Granted, it was in S.A.'s final DLC update (which released like a week before Ultimate) and it technically wasn't HIM, but an alternate universe clone of him, but I'd like to think the point still stands.
 
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