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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

KneeOfJustice99

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I think customisation would be cool... but I'd personally just keep it to some kind of system where you can make your own alt colours for characters (and their alternate models.) That way, you're in a happy medium where you can still create cool stuff or things that are references to other things - but you don't have such a degree of customisation that it needs an active moderation team constantly trying to determine if players are making Mario shout slurs whenever he does a forward smash.
 

Gengar84

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I think an easy solution for moderation is to not allow the created characters to be used online outside of direct games with friends. Kind of like how you couldn’t play online with the sticker power ups or custom moves (as far as I’m aware). That way you don’t have to worry about exposing young players to offensive content. It wouldn’t be ideal because it would be fun to play the characters in all modes but I’d still gladly take that sacrifice.
 

Ivander

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I'd be good with color customization for characters, and maybe some customization options regarding the design chosen for certain characters like the Villager or other characters who could be customised, but I think Mii Fighters being the only custom character option is fine.

I mean it's not like it was hard... Took her a few minutes with some key questions, did some light sketching and as the image took shape I described the background, the atmosphere, the colors of the scene... With some colored pencils the image was there and really pretty much exactly as I pictured. So yeah the fact a computer can do that with just a simple back and forth of written commands means we've come a huge way and can only keep going. I don't know what the cost would be or to who.
.....I think I need to take a break because I misinterpreted/scrambled most of your previous post aside from the last bit involving your brain, music, hours to minutes and whatnot.

I mean, regarding the art bit, if your mother is okay with it, that's all right. Although regarding the other stuff, I still think it's not a particular good idea wishing for something that you can attach to your brain to make stuff happen, The brain is very vulnerable to outside influences as it is.
 

Sucumbio

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I'd be good with color customization for characters, and maybe some customization options regarding the design chosen for certain characters like the Villager or other characters who could be customised, but I think Mii Fighters being the only custom character option is fine.


.....I think I need to take a break because I misinterpreted/scrambled most of your previous post aside from the last bit involving your brain, music, hours to minutes and whatnot.

I mean, regarding the art bit, if your mother is okay with it, that's all right. Although regarding the other stuff, I still think it's not a particular good idea wishing for something that you can attach to your brain to make stuff happen, The brain is very vulnerable to outside influences as it is.
I gotcha. At the time yeah actually she was more interested in getting me to stfu and sit still haha so she was like okay FINE and drew the picture but cutting my hair was far more important. My thing., the whole point of even bringing that up is that I feel as artists tend to think of themselves, or others of them, as having some sort of monopoly on creativity, which just isn't true. Artists have a skill set that others do not, but the inspired feelings and notions they feel are felt by everyone, it's just Artists are able to take that a step further and share that inspiration in a way that's physically experienceable by others. AI really can bridge this gap and allow that many more people to create images, music, even sculpting with 3d printers... And as an artist myself I do not feel threatened by or worried about AI. To the contrary I'm looking forward to using it myself. Before if I wanted to make a game or something I had to learn gamemaker, find a sprite artist or use public domain sprites, the only thing I could do without learning how was write the soundtrack. Now? I can do all 3 and really not need a masters in computer engineering or being a C++ god because scripting with AI is as easy as "write me a script that does this" and it does!

Put another way this is probably what artists of the time went through when the Photograph was invented. The hype will pass and the reality will set in that even with these tools a good idea is still a good idea and it still takes a moment of true inspiration to become real.
 
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fogbadge

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I gotcha. At the time yeah actually she was more interested in getting me to stfu and sit still haha so she was like okay FINE and drew the picture but cutting my hair was far more important. My thing., the whole point of even bringing that up is that I feel as artists tend to think of themselves, or others of them, as having some sort of monopoly on creativity, which just isn't true. Artists have a skill set that others do not, but the inspired feelings and notions they feel are felt by everyone, it's just Artists are able to take that a step further and share that inspiration in a way that's physically experienceable by others. AI really can bridge this gap and allow that many more people to create images, music, even sculpting with 3d printers... And as an artist myself I do not feel threatened by or worried about AI. To the contrary I'm looking forward to using it myself. Before if I wanted to make a game or something I had to learn gamemaker, find a sprite artist or use public domain sprites, the only thing I could do without learning how was write the soundtrack. Now? I can do all 3 and really not need a masters in computer engineering or being a C++ god because scripting with AI is as easy as "write me a script that does this" and it does!

Put another way this is probably what artists of the time went through when the Photograph was invented. The hype will pass and the reality will set in that even with these tools a good idea is still a good idea and it still takes a moment of true inspiration to become real.
doubtful as painting has always been able to do things that photos can’t. I think most artists are probably more concerned about the idea that AI is going to replace them, make them loose their jobs and end their careers based on something they loved doing.
 

Gengar84

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Messages
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I gotcha. At the time yeah actually she was more interested in getting me to stfu and sit still haha so she was like okay FINE and drew the picture but cutting my hair was far more important. My thing., the whole point of even bringing that up is that I feel as artists tend to think of themselves, or others of them, as having some sort of monopoly on creativity, which just isn't true. Artists have a skill set that others do not, but the inspired feelings and notions they feel are felt by everyone, it's just Artists are able to take that a step further and share that inspiration in a way that's physically experienceable by others. AI really can bridge this gap and allow that many more people to create images, music, even sculpting with 3d printers... And as an artist myself I do not feel threatened by or worried about AI. To the contrary I'm looking forward to using it myself. Before if I wanted to make a game or something I had to learn gamemaker, find a sprite artist or use public domain sprites, the only thing I could do without learning how was write the soundtrack. Now? I can do all 3 and really not need a masters in computer engineering or being a C++ god because scripting with AI is as easy as "write me a script that does this" and it does!

Put another way this is probably what artists of the time went through when the Photograph was invented. The hype will pass and the reality will set in that even with these tools a good idea is still a good idea and it still takes a moment of true inspiration to become real.
I’m kind of on the fence and I think there are valid arguments on each side. I think it’s not so much the technology itself but how it is used. Like you said, it can be a great tool to help people that may have a vision of what they’d love to see but lack the artistic skills to bring their idea to life. AI can also be a great tool in various other fields like medicine and education. However, there is the very real risk that greedy corporations will use the technology as a means to save money and either not hire real artists or even lay off several that are already employed. I feel like people that make a living through their art are very justified in their fear of AI because it may very well affect their livelihood.

I hope we can find a way to take advantage of all the awesome benefits of AI while minimizing the downsides like unemployment of misinformation. If we had a better social structure that could support people that lost their jobs with something like UBI, maybe all jobs being automated could eventually be a good thing but we have a long way to go for that. If people didn’t have to worry about working to earn a living anymore, than most would be able to focus on what they really want to do instead. People who enjoy making art would still continue to do so even if AI could do it faster. Unfortunately, our current economic system is going to make this challenging.

Until then, my personal belief is that it’s okay if the people using it are open and honest about it and the people making it can provide some kind of compensation for the artists used to train the models. I’m actually really fascinated by the whole topic of AI and regularly listen to YouTubers like Matt Wolfe, MattvidPro, and David Shapiro that either show off cool new tech or speculate on the future of AI. I don’t know where this is all going to lead but all I know is things are going to be very different in the not too distant future, for better or for worse (probably a bit of both).
 
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FazDude

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Wherever good books are sold.
As long as we're talking Mii Fighters and customizable characters, if I were in charge of Smash I'd probably greatly overhaul how Miis work.

I'd probably make it so a Mii's "class" is decided by a specific weapon choice that can be mixed/matched with headgear/tops which aren't fused with weapons. For example, a Sans Mii costume would have the mask, the hoodie with both hands free, and a Gaster Blaster weapon that gives the wielder Mii Gunner's moveset. This way, you could have a Swordfighter/Brawler/Mage Sans who looks like Sans, but wields the Master Sword or a Keyblade or something.

Not only would this be great for customization, but it'd also open the floor to add weapons that aren't tied to a specific character; Minecraft swords, a Zapper gun, etc.
 

DarthEnderX

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Whats your guys Opinion on a new "Custom Character" Slot in Smash 6 or 7?
I want Mii Mages:
Aerith [Final Fantasy] (converted from Swordfighter)
Ashley [WarioWare] (converted from Swordfighter)
Lip [Panel de Pon] (converted from Swordfighter)
Veronica [Dragon Quest] (converted from Swordfighter)
Vince [Art Academy] (converted from Swordfighter)
Viridi [Kid Icarus] (converted from Swordfighter)
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Kamek [Super Mario Bros.]
FF Black Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
FF White Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
Reimu [Touhou]
Magus [Chrono Trigger]

Also Mii Ninjas:
Altaïr [Assassin’s Creed] (converted from Swordfighter)
Goemon [Mystical Ninja] (converted from Swordfighter)
Nakoruru [Samurai Shodown] (converted from Swordfighter)
Ninjara [ARMS] (converted from Brawler)
FF Ninja [Mario Sports Mix]
Joe Musashi [Shinobi]
Rikimaru [Tenchu]
Guy [Final Fight]
Ibuki [Street Fighter]
Taki [SoulCalibur]
Kasumi [Dead or Alive]
Corvo Attano [Dishonored]
 

HyperSomari64

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Also Mii Ninjas:
Altaïr [Assassin’s Creed] (converted from Swordfighter)
Goemon [Mystical Ninja] (converted from Swordfighter)
Nakoruru [Samurai Shodown] (converted from Swordfighter)
Ninjara [ARMS] (converted from Brawler)
FF Ninja [Mario Sports Mix]
Joe Musashi [Shinobi]
Rikimaru [Tenchu]
Guy [Final Fight]
Ibuki [Street Fighter]
Taki [SoulCalibur]
Kasumi [Dead or Alive]
Corvo Attano [Dishonored]
Call me a Madcap, but there should be a Senran Kagura costume there.
Edit: NVM, that game is just a Musou for degenerates. It will never be in Smash in any form (Not even a music track).
 
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DarthEnderX

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Like you said, it can be a great tool to help people that may have a vision of what they’d love to see but lack the artistic skills to bring their idea to life.
Imagine a world where you could create any hentai you could imagine at the push of a button...
 

HyperSomari64

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I think Dashing Super Guy would be rad, he'd work as either a composite of references to 80s/90s Nintendo ads, or you could give him his own moveset independent of the other ads - "Captain Falcon but he's a rubberhose cartoon" is a really fun idea.
His Final Smash should be "You Cannot Beat Us". IDK, but that Australian nightmare fuel works better as a FS then a fighter.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Like you said, it can be a great tool to help people that may have a vision of what they’d love to see but lack the artistic skills to bring their idea to life
I am fine with passion projects that absolutely need AI to get the artwork/voices they need, but it feels like for every person that uses AI for that, there are 10,000 people using AI to flood the internet with garbage. As well as corporations who can afford all the human writers/artists/voice actors they need still resorting to AI.
 

Ivander

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Imagine a world where you could create any hentai you could imagine at the push of a button...
With the amount of dedication some people have when it comes to that, it's an inevitability.

I know it's happening in some capacity with deepfakes, but imagine turning entire movies into animations, let alone putting any fictional character in a role. Mario about to play all Chris Pratt roles.
 

Opossum

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Put another way this is probably what artists of the time went through when the Photograph was invented. The hype will pass and the reality will set in that even with these tools a good idea is still a good idea and it still takes a moment of true inspiration to become real.
This argument is another bit of oft-regurgitated pro-AI propaganda. The situations are not comparable in the slightest.

Photography still requires some form of skill to do properly, an an immense amount to do well. AI generation is something literally anyone can do. It isn't art. It's not a skill. Hell, it hardly counts as data entry. Like oooooh, you're so special for telling a machine "REALISTIC SHADING GORGEOUS BACKGROUND BIG BREASTS SATURATED COLORS ANIME ART STYLE TRENDING ON TWITTER FRONT PAGE OF ARTSTATION PRETTY FACE LENS FLARE" ad nauseum until it makes something somewhat resembling a human until you look too closely at it. A real modern day Rembrandt.

But additionally, photography never threatened to replace other forms of art. AI has already been shown to do just that. So many corporations just generate this slop instead of hiring actual artists. Concept artists, graphic designers, and storyboarders have been put out of their jobs because these corporate pigs don't want to pay for things that deserve to be paid for. All while their "replacement" requires a small country's worth of energy to generate, all while stealing from actual artists all the while.

The sooner AI image and prose generation is outlawed, the better. Let this dystopian hobby die the death it deserves, and may its supporters learn to pick up a goddamn ****ing pencil if they want the title of "artist" so badly.
 

Gengar84

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I don’t know what these people are thinking. AI is no replacement for true skill. As I said before, if AI becomes not available, and no real talent exists anymore after a while because of overuse and over-dependence of AI, what is humanity going to do then?
Yeah, that’s partly why my brother and I like to create images ourselves with no assistance from AI. Once we’ve completed a character drawing, we mess around with it in Stable Diffusion to add detail and make the art pop. Since we’re just editing our own original drawings and we’re doing the same amount of work before that point that we always had, I think it’s a fun tool to see your drawings and characters in a new style. We still spend several hours for each character with Stable Diffusion so it’s not like we’re blindly just going with whatever it spits out.
 

CannonStreak

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Yeah, that’s partly why my brother and I like to create images ourselves with no assistance from AI. Once we’ve completed a character drawing, we mess around with it in Stable Diffusion to add detail and make the art pop. Since we’re just editing our own original drawings and we’re doing the same amount of work before that point that we always had, I think it’s a fun tool to see your drawings and characters in a new style. We still spend several hours for each character with Stable Diffusion so it’s not like we’re blindly just going with whatever it spits out.
That’s good.

As Opossum said, and with me maybe adding to it, I would say AI should be outlawed, especially to keep human skill alive. Nothing truly replaces human skill.
 

Gengar84

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That’s good.

As Opossum said, and with me maybe adding to it, I would say AI should be outlawed, especially to keep human skill alive. Nothing truly replaces human skill.
I agree with that but I feel like there are too many potential benefits of AI to outlaw it. I think it would be more useful to try to find a good middle ground that works for everyone. The downsides are also very real but I think it has potential to be a net positive if handled correctly.
 

CannonStreak

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I agree with that but I feel like there are too many potential benefits of AI to outlaw it. I think it would be more useful to try to find a good middle ground that works for everyone. The downsides are also very real but I think it has potential to be a net positive if handled correctly.
Yeah, I knew that was the case. Still, if AI were abused and used too much in place of actual human skill, I can see it being outlawed.

…Which, for reasons you said which are about AI’s positives, would be a shame.
 

Gengar84

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Since I’ve been talking about it enough, I just thought I’d show a before and after example of one of our characters we ran through Stable Diffusion. Like I mentioned, this process took a few hours to get something we were happy with and had to do some more editing in Photoshop after the fact.

Before AI:
1706029728685.jpeg


After AI:
1706029769047.jpeg


If anyone is interested in seeing our other characters, the link is here so I don’t flood the board with too many examples:


I just find it to be a lot of fun to mess with the AI art programs to see our characters in different styles. We’ve been working on our story and characters our whole lives and my brother is in the very early stages of making the game in RPG maker so who knows, maybe one day the characters will be relevant to talk about for Smash lol.
 

Gorgonzales

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I am fine with passion projects that absolutely need AI to get the artwork/voices they need, but it feels like for every person that uses AI for that, there are 10,000 people using AI to flood the internet with garbage.
Tell me about it. I can't google anything without a lot of AI-generated trash filling up a non-insignificant portion of the results, something really needs to be done about this because it's starting to get simultaneously very concerning and annoying.

no.png


These are search results for "hank hill sitting". Despite it being a somewhat specific search, three of the first ten results are still worthless AI slop. It's infuriating.
 

Sucumbio

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This argument is another bit of oft-regurgitated pro-AI propaganda. The situations are not comparable in the slightest.

Photography still requires some form of skill to do properly, an an immense amount to do well. AI generation is something literally anyone can do. It isn't art. It's not a skill. Hell, it hardly counts as data entry. Like oooooh, you're so special for telling a machine "REALISTIC SHADING GORGEOUS BACKGROUND BIG BREASTS SATURATED COLORS ANIME ART STYLE TRENDING ON TWITTER FRONT PAGE OF ARTSTATION PRETTY FACE LENS FLARE" ad nauseum until it makes something somewhat resembling a human until you look too closely at it. A real modern day Rembrandt.

But additionally, photography never threatened to replace other forms of art. AI has already been shown to do just that. So many corporations just generate this slop instead of hiring actual artists. Concept artists, graphic designers, and storyboarders have been put out of their jobs because these corporate pigs don't want to pay for things that deserve to be paid for. All while their "replacement" requires a small country's worth of energy to generate, all while stealing from actual artists all the while.

The sooner AI image and prose generation is outlawed, the better. Let this dystopian hobby die the death it deserves, and may its supporters learn to pick up a goddamn ****ing pencil if they want the title of "artist" so badly.
I couldn't think of a better example but photography replacing portrait or landscape art was originally a worry just like today's AI debate, but as this art historian points out it was unwarranted fear because it's simply another tool and many painters of the time welcomed it because it either made their lives easier or provided an alternative income when painting demand was low. Regular people could get a family photo in minutes as opposed to days and it was much cheaper than hiring a painter. And yes, even then companies commissioned fewer painters in lieu of using "stock" photography, etc. but the market changed to adapt. and there will always be demand for genuine originals. Of course, AI usage for commercial purposes should be regulated, but that was never in contention and should go without saying.

I dunno when I look at something and think "that's cool" and then find out it was made by a computer I don't feel betrayed or whatever it still looked cool. Maybe art in general just explodes into crazy new territory? I can imagine AI Artist being a job title. It's not an oxymoron. They aren't mutually exclusive..

What about a painter who develops a crippling injury? Retire? NEVER paint again? C'mon this is easy obviously a tool like AI could be the difference between that artist continue their artistic journey. 'AI is the enemy,' it's a facile argument that ignores the intent that only a human can be responsible for. case in point Gengar84 Gengar84 artwork above. You're seeing people on social media post the final product and assuming it took no skill. But he drew it first and used AI to sharpen the lines, build the definition out in the muscles, streamlined the head, etc. is this somehow a worse piece of work because he used AI assistance? There's a market for both, actually but if I'm placing bets the AI assited graphic looks better. (It does look better too but good job either way).
 

DarthEnderX

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I would say AI should be outlawed, especially to keep human skill alive.
Well that's just a dumb argument. Should they outlaw solar power to keep the skill of coal mining alive?

The skill of riding horses didn't vanish when cars were invented. It just transitioned from being less of an industry into more of a hobby.
 
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Louie G.

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I'd rather talk about Smash Bros than AI (which, as a professional artist myself, I'm not very keen on) so I'll just toss something out there.

We've gotten a few more lowkey remakes of less prominent Nintendo IPs lately like Famicom Detective Club, Another Code and Advance Wars. Which is pretty good on its own, but let's say any of these games received a sequel within the next year or two. Would they become more of a serious threat coming into the next game if new content was actively being developed? Is it too little too late at this point?

Granted I do think it would be case by case, I still find it a bit difficult to believe they would add a FDC character for example. It just doesn't feel like that game was being given quite the necessary spotlight to be worth the Smash discussion (particularly when Ayumi was being tossed around during DLC). But if future titles in any of these series were receiving ample promotion and spotlight, it'd be nice to have another potentially fresh Nintendo IP to spice up Smash discussion a bit. It feels like we're rightfully all a little hesitant to put too much stock in any of those outside two or three.
 

DarthEnderX

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Swordfighter Peach, Kung Fu Peach and Cowgirl Peach should be Miis in Smash 6.

Edit: Actually, nevermind Cowgirl Peach. She doesn't have a gun.
 
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Gengar84

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I'd rather talk about Smash Bros than AI (which, as a professional artist myself, I'm not very keen on) so I'll just toss something out there.

We've gotten a few more lowkey remakes of less prominent Nintendo IPs lately like Famicom Detective Club, Another Code and Advance Wars. Which is pretty good on its own, but let's say any of these games received a sequel within the next year or two. Would they become more of a serious threat coming into the next game if new content was actively being developed? Is it too little too late at this point?

Granted I do think it would be case by case, I still find it a bit difficult to believe they would add a FDC character for example. It just doesn't feel like that game was being given quite the necessary spotlight to be worth the Smash discussion (particularly when Ayumi was being tossed around during DLC). But if future titles in any of these series were receiving ample promotion and spotlight, it'd be nice to have another potentially fresh Nintendo IP to spice up Smash discussion a bit. It feels like we're rightfully all a little hesitant to put too much stock in any of those outside two or three.
I’m assuming that it could only help. I imagine Nintendo gives Sakurai and his team some advanced knowledge of the games they’re working on so they can be ready when a new Smash comes out. Sakurai also has a history with bringing back some classic retro characters into Smash like Pit so I could see him doing that again. I’ve never played the game but just going off the design and concept, I think Mach Rider could be a fun first party retro addition. Maybe a Smash appearance could even lead to a new game like what happened with Kid Icarus.
 

Mushroomguy12

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I hope we can at least get 2-4 new 1st Party IPs in the next game to get playable fighters, whether its Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, Ring Fit, Advance Wars, Famicom Detective Club, Another Code, Astral Chain, etc. Some of these have bigger chances than others, but I hope all the recent remakes signal a change.
 

Gengar84

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I hope we can at least get 2-4 new 1st Party IPs in the next game to get playable fighters, whether its Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, Ring Fit, Advance Wars, Famicom Detective Club, Another Code, Astral Chain, etc. Some of these have bigger chances than others, but I hope all the recent remakes signal a change.
I think there’s a decent chance of that happening. My top two picks would be Astral Chain and Golden Sun because I’ve played and enjoyed both games. I don’t have any experience with the others but I’m open to them too.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Speaking of Mii classes, Mii Mages should definitely be the 4th one, but I think an interesting 5th one would be Mii Athletes, since the Wii Sports series is such a huge part of the Mii identity. You could add lots of athletic outfits from various sports games and pull from all corners of the Wii Sports and Wii Play games for movesets.
 

Gengar84

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I know it’s extremely unlikely but how would everyone feel about getting two Astral Chain reps? I think that will probably only happen if another game is in the works but the main antagonist for the majority of the game (Jena Anderson) is one of the coolest first party characters and I’d love to see her playable. Jena’s only real chances are either as a second rep (possible but unlikely) or if for some reason Officer Howard can’t work mechanically but they still want a character (less likely).

1706033646366.jpeg
 
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CannonStreak

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Well that's just a dumb argument. Should they outlaw solar power to keep the skill of coal mining alive?

The skill of riding horses didn't vanish when cars were invented. It just transitioned from being less of an industry into more of a hobby.
Funny thing is this; what good is horse riding in terms of having jobs that require artistic talent like drawing/painting, animating, voice acting and maybe writing?

For your information, solar power and horse riding are nothing compared to what AI can replace humans in. In fact, solar power and horse riding would be the same if actual robots in physical form were to replace humans in those areas, robots that would have AI.

I am a writer myself, and I can tell why AI and similar technology (like robots) would be a bad thing to replace human skill with.
 

Gengar84

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The good thing is that I don’t think the passion for physically making art yourself will ever go away. If things are handled correctly, the only downside would be that people could no longer make money off it. As things stand, that would be horrible as people need to work to earn a living. If they reform the system in order to still support those without work, it will actually free people up to pursue their passions that they weren’t able to do before because they were stuck performing a job for the majority of their lives. I think this will eventually extend to all professions, not just art so I think it’s very important the people in power try to figure this stuff out now before it’s too late.
 

CannonStreak

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The good thing is that I don’t think the passion for physically making art yourself will ever go away. If things are handled correctly, the only downside would be that people could no longer make money off it. As things stand, that would be horrible as people need to work to earn a living. If they reform the system in order to still support those without work, it will actually free people up to pursue their passions that they weren’t able to do before because they were stuck performing a job for the majority of their lives. I think this will eventually extend to all professions, not just art so I think it’s very important the people in power try to figure this stuff out now before it’s too late.
Nice thoughts. I do personally worry about people who dream of becoming great artists and the like, as some businesses might use machines instead of real people, and those people with talent might not achieve their dreams with that.
 
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