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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Ivander

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I'd rather talk about Smash Bros than AI (which, as a professional artist myself, I'm not very keen on) so I'll just toss something out there.

We've gotten a few more lowkey remakes of less prominent Nintendo IPs lately like Famicom Detective Club, Another Code and Advance Wars. Which is pretty good on its own, but let's say any of these games received a sequel within the next year or two. Would they become more of a serious threat coming into the next game if new content was actively being developed? Is it too little too late at this point?

Granted I do think it would be case by case, I still find it a bit difficult to believe they would add a FDC character for example. It just doesn't feel like that game was being given quite the necessary spotlight to be worth the Smash discussion (particularly when Ayumi was being tossed around during DLC). But if future titles in any of these series were receiving ample promotion and spotlight, it'd be nice to have another potentially fresh Nintendo IP to spice up Smash discussion a bit. It feels like we're rightfully all a little hesitant to put too much stock in any of those outside two or three.
May want to keep an eye out for Detective Famicom Club. Supposedly, there was someone who predicted the Princess Peach Showtime trailer correctly and they also mentioned a spiritual sequal to Famicom Detective Club.
 

Gengar84

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Nice thoughts. I do personally worry about people who dream of becoming great artists and the like, as some businesses might use machines instead of real people, and those people with talent might not achieve their dreams with that.
Yeah, I totally understand that. My hope for the future is that once the majority of work is automated and AI advances, there won’t be any need for these giant corporations. I can see a world that rather than hoping Hollywood eventually makes a movie about a theme you love, people will just be able to do it themselves. They can put as much or as little personal input as they like such as their own characters, world, and story. The more personal input the more rewarding the final output would be. I think there’s actually a chance that this leads to even more people being able to express themselves and create their own art since they will ideally have much more free time to pursue their passions. Maybe I’m just a hopeless optimist but that’s what I’m holding out hope for in the future. Things could easily go much worse and we end up in some kind of cyberpunk dystopia but I prefer to stay optimistic.
 

CannonStreak

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Yeah, I totally understand that. My hope for the future is that once the majority of work is automated and AI advances, there won’t be any need for these giant corporations. I can see a world that rather than hoping Hollywood eventually makes a movie about a theme you love, people will just be able to do it themselves. They can put as much or as little personal input as they like such as their own characters, world, and story. The more personal input the more rewarding the final output would be. I think there’s actually a chance that this leads to even more people being able to express themselves and create their own art since they will ideally have much more free time to pursue their passions. Maybe I’m just a hopeless optimist but that’s what I’m holding out hope for in the future. Things could easily go much worse and we end up in some kind of cyberpunk dystopia but I prefer to stay optimistic.
That sounds excellent! I do love that there would not be any need for big corporations with this idea.
 

Gorgonzales

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Should Peach’s moveset be retooled to included some of her Showtime abilities? Why or why not?
No. A character in Smash should represent the character in their entirety, and Showtime is just one small part of Peach's history. Throwing in Showtime references in moves for the sake of references like having her pull a rapier out of nowhere would make her kit feel disconnected (which is funny because Showtime as a game looks to be a jumble of disconnected ideas itself).

She can reference it in a taunt or victory pose or maybe even costumes (depends on whether she still uses her dress for stuff like down-smash), but I cannot see her performing an attack related to Showtime unless it's physical and doesn't require an external prop like maybe Kung-Fu Peach.
 

Gengar84

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No. A character in Smash should represent the character in their entirety, and Showtime is just one small part of Peach's history. Throwing in Showtime references in moves for the sake of references like having her pull a rapier out of nowhere would make her kit feel disconnected (which is funny because Showtime as a game looks to be a jumble of disconnected ideas itself).

She can reference it in a taunt or victory pose or maybe even costumes (depends on whether she still uses her dress for stuff like down-smash), but I cannot see her performing an attack related to Showtime unless it's physical and doesn't require an external prop like maybe Kung-Fu Peach.
I agree with that. Being too specific to the most recent game is a good way to make a character feel outdated later on. Just look at Mario and FLUDD.
 

Mushroomguy12

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All the new Peach costumes really makes me want more Costume DLC in the next Smash for the roster as a whole. We could have Holiday based costumes like in Mario Kart Tour and Fire Emblem Heroes (Halloween, Christmas, Valentine's, Easter, Summer, etc). We could have costumes based on various genres like in Mario Party 2 (Space, Wild West, Fantasy, etc). We could have costumes based on previous costumes from the games (Toon Link getting Tri Force Heroes outfits, Peach getting Princess Peach Showtime outfits, etc). And we could even have costumes based on previous appearances in past Smash games or just consoles as a whole (N64 costumes for Banjo, Mario, Link, Peach, etc, Melee and Brawl outfits for veterans from those games, etc.)
 

CannonStreak

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I agree with that. Being too specific to the most recent game is a good way to make a character feel outdated later on. Just look at Mario and FLUDD.
Yeah, I would give characters something they mainly use rather than from a one time game, too. I’d bet if Mario did use Cappy from Odyssey aside from a taunt, that would probably become outdated eventually, too.
 

Kirbeh

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At the very least I can see them updating the effects on some of her attacks to vaguely reference Showtime, like the ribbon up Smash and whatnot. I'd personally like to see some costumes as well, but Smash doesn't tend to do many of those so I won't hold my breath. Plus, as Gorgonzales said, her Down Smash presents an animation problem. Unless they change that move in particular I don't see her getting any alts period.
 

CannonStreak

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All the new Peach costumes really makes me want more Costume DLC in the next Smash for the roster as a whole. We could have Holiday based costumes like in Mario Kart Tour and Fire Emblem Heroes (Halloween, Christmas, Valentine's, Easter, Summer, etc). We could have costumes based on various genres like in Mario Party 2 (Space, Wild West, Fantasy, etc). We could have costumes based on previous costumes from the games (Toon Link getting Tri Force Heroes outfits, Peach getting Princess Peach Showtime outfits, etc). And we could even have costumes based on previous appearances in past Smash games or just consoles as a whole (N64 costumes for Banjo, Mario, Link, Peach, etc, Melee and Brawl outfits for veterans from those games, etc.)
Sonic has a lot of costumes in the mobile games of his, like the recent Dragonfire costume of his. I would love to see those costumes for him in Smash. I love the N64 costumes idea, too.
 

Louie G.

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Yeah, I would give characters something they mainly use rather than from a one time game, too. I’d bet if Mario did use Cappy from Odyssey aside from a taunt, that would probably become outdated eventually, too.
I’ve mentioned it before, but I do find Cappy to be a bit of a different situation since Mario’s cap will always be a fixture of his design. FLUDD or Peach’s costumes are not visually cohesive with what we have right now, the “standard”. Meanwhile Mario tossing his hat around does follow the typical Smash philosophy of drawing moveset potential from a character’s design.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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Maybe they could rework Peach's Final Smash to reference Showtime. If they do make changes to her moveset, I could see Daisy being used as the archive Peach to archive her old moveset, similar to how Young Link and Toon Link were used to archive the old Link's moveset when he got BOTW changes. It would be a good way to declone Daisy in the process.
 

CannonStreak

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I’ve mentioned it before, but I do find Cappy to be a bit of a different situation since Mario’s cap will always be a fixture of his design. Something like FLUDD or Peach’s costumes are not visually cohesive with what we have right now, the “standard”. Meanwhile Mario tossing his hat around does follow the typical Smash philosophy of drawing moveset potential from a character’s design.
Yeah, I see what you mean. Still…Cappy, so far was from one game. I am still not sure about his case.
 

Gengar84

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That’s one reason I wish they’d have kept Link’s grappling hook. It was fun and iconic to the character and just because he didn’t have one in the most recent game, they removed it. I’d also love for the Zelda characters to have model swaps for their alts of their different appearances throughout the series. That way, if people like a particular version of the character, they still get to play as them. Hyrule Warriors did this and I thought it was a great idea.
 

Louie G.

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Yeah, I see what you mean. Still…Cappy, so far was from one game. I am still not sure about his case.
I would agree if we were talking about a move where Mario could possess his opponents (which would be a bad idea). Simply throwing his cap out and letting it spin for a bit is something that really, he could have feasibly done at any point and is not drawing that much attention to the fact that there’s a hat ghost controlling it to anyone who doesn’t already know. Vs pulling out FLUDD out of hammerspace and so forth.

That’s one reason I wish they’d have kept Link’s grappling hook
Overhauling Link probably wouldn’t sit so well with me if there weren’t two other characters holding onto the old traditional stuff. If neither of them return (I assume one of them will) then I’d rather make adult Link more of a composite.
 
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CannonStreak

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I would agree if we were talking about a move where Mario could possess his opponents (which would be a bad idea). Simply throwing his cap out and letting it spin for a bit is something that really, he could have feasibly done at any point and is not drawing that much attention to the fact that there’s a hat ghost controlling it to anyone who doesn’t already know. Vs pulling out FLUDD out of hammerspace and so forth.
Maybe, but Mario has not used his hat as a weapon before much, if at all. Even without Cappy, unless Mario uses his hat as a weapon in a future game, I don’t see that using the hat as a weapon could be unlike FLUDD for Mario in Smash.
 

Speed Weed

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I'd rather talk about Smash Bros than AI (which, as a professional artist myself, I'm not very keen on) so I'll just toss something out there.

We've gotten a few more lowkey remakes of less prominent Nintendo IPs lately like Famicom Detective Club, Another Code and Advance Wars. Which is pretty good on its own, but let's say any of these games received a sequel within the next year or two. Would they become more of a serious threat coming into the next game if new content was actively being developed? Is it too little too late at this point?

Granted I do think it would be case by case, I still find it a bit difficult to believe they would add a FDC character for example. It just doesn't feel like that game was being given quite the necessary spotlight to be worth the Smash discussion (particularly when Ayumi was being tossed around during DLC). But if future titles in any of these series were receiving ample promotion and spotlight, it'd be nice to have another potentially fresh Nintendo IP to spice up Smash discussion a bit. It feels like we're rightfully all a little hesitant to put too much stock in any of those outside two or three.
I think the million dollar question with Advance Wars is if any future developments in the series are coming out in Japan, because if they're not, I think it's safe to say we're not seeing it
 

Gorgonzales

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Maybe they could rework Peach's Final Smash to reference Showtime. If they do make changes to her moveset, I could see Daisy being used as the archive Peach to archive her old moveset, similar to how Young Link and Toon Link were used to archive the old Link's moveset when he got BOTW changes. It would be a good way to declone Daisy in the process.
I'm sorry but this is possibly the worst way to go about decloning Daisy. Making her "archival Peach" is not at all what Daisy is as a character, it'd just be another Falcondorf situation.

Old movesets will have to be let go at some point; even in the unlikely event of a new game that keeps veterans' movesets 100% the same, cuts will happen. I believe Peach's moveset in its current state is pretty solid anyhow, there isn't that much you'd need to change.

I would agree if we were talking about a move where Mario could possess his opponents (which would be a bad idea). Simply throwing his cap out and letting it spin for a bit is something that really, he could have feasibly done at any point and is not drawing that much attention to the fact that there’s a hat ghost controlling it to anyone who doesn’t already know. Vs pulling out FLUDD out of hammerspace and so forth.
Man, people trying to shoehorn the Capture mechanic into a Mario moveset after Odyssey's release was painfully tone-deaf for what Mario is supposed to be in Smash, a straightforward all-rounder. I would not mind a simple Cap Throw move like you said though; in fact, I think it could really serve to extend his character and options, since he is the platforming character after all, and having him be able to bounce off a temporary pseudo-platform he can toss out for extra movement options is very-in line with the character.

Maybe, but Mario has not used his hat as a weapon before much, if at all. Even without Cappy, unless Mario uses his hat as a weapon in a future game, I don’t see that using the hat as a weapon could be unlike FLUDD for Mario in Smash.
I don't really care if he only ended up using his hat as a weapon in one game, because his hat is a part of his innate character design; someone who doesn't even know Odyssey exists could still easily accept a cap throw move at face value if they just picked up a Smash game for the first time. It's more natural for him to use than having FLUDD materialize out of nowhere.
 
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DarthEnderX

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Funny thing is this; what good is horse riding in terms of having jobs that require artistic talent like drawing/painting, animating, voice acting and maybe writing?
It's...not? Why would it be. That's not the point. The point is that technology replacing a thing doesn't mean that all skill of that thing passes from human knowledge. It just transitions into being something people do purely for passion, instead of something they do for money.

People who still work with horses do it because they love horses. Not because it pays their bills. And by that same token, people will still make art, even if AI replaces most commercial art.

The idea that "But humans will forget how to art!" is dumb. Because people will keep making art out of a love of art. Just like we didn't forget how to ride horses.
 

CannonStreak

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I'm sorry but this is possibly the worst way to go about decloning Daisy. Making her "archival Peach" is not at all what Daisy is as a character, it'd just be another Falcondorf situation.

Old movesets will have to be let go at some point; even in the unlikely event of a new game that keeps veterans' movesets 100% the same, cuts will happen. I believe Peach's moveset in its current state is pretty solid anyhow, there isn't that much you'd need to change.



Man, people trying to shoehorn the Capture mechanic into a Mario moveset after Odyssey's release was painfully tone-deaf for what Mario is supposed to be in Smash, a straightforward all-rounder. I would not mind a simple Cap Throw move like you said though; in fact, I think it could really serve to extend his character and options, since he is the platforming character, and having him able to bounce off a pseudo-platform he can toss out for extra movement options is very-in line with the character.



I don't really care if he only ended up using his hat as a weapon in one game, because his hat is a part of his innate character design; someone who doesn't even know Odyssey exists could still easily accept a cap throw move at face value if they just picked up a Smash game for the first time. It's more natural for him to use than having FLUDD materialize out of nowhere.
Yeah, but that is just the hat that is part of his character, not the attack. There is a difference. You don’t see Mario use it much for, well, anything other than the Mario 64 power ups and maybe other things. Plus, Mario probably used his cap in Odyssey because his hat was, well, Cappy. How could he use his hat if it were not Cappy? Also, I don’t see him using his hat in Smash, anyway.
 

DarthEnderX

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I’ve mentioned it before, but I do find Cappy to be a bit of a different situation since Mario’s cap will always be a fixture of his design. FLUDD or Peach’s costumes are not visually cohesive with what we have right now, the “standard”.
Especially if Cappy is replacing FLUDD. Because they're both single game references. The difference is...people love Cappy, people hate FLUDD.

If you're going to have a single game reference, at least be one people like.
 
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Gorgonzales

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Yeah, but that is just the hat that is part of his character, not the attack. There is a difference. You don’t see Mario use it much for, well, anything other than the Mario 64 power ups and maybe other things. Plus, Mario probably used his cap in Odyssey because his hat was, well, Cappy. How could he use his hat if it were not Cappy? Also, I don’t see him using his hat in Smash, anyway.
Cappy's eyes don't show all the time when he's in hat form. He can simply keep them hidden. Even then, Smash doesn't really care about canon "pre-requisites", as I'll call them. "How could he use his hat if it were not Cappy?" is like saying "how can Olimar pluck Pikmin in Smash when there aren't any sprouts in sight?"

Mario throwing his hat for a move shouldn't be this controversial, and I really don't think it would be had it made it into the game.
 
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fogbadge

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That’s one reason I wish they’d have kept Link’s grappling hook. It was fun and iconic to the character and just because he didn’t have one in the most recent game, they removed it. I’d also love for the Zelda characters to have model swaps for their alts of their different appearances throughout the series. That way, if people like a particular version of the character, they still get to play as them. Hyrule Warriors did this and I thought it was a great idea.
hookshot
 

Gengar84

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On top of my dislike Mario Sunshine, I was also never able to do anything useful with FLUDD in Smash. That’s probably because I just suck at using the move but I always found it very difficult to use properly. I usually just pretend the move doesn’t exist when I play Mario. Same with Squirtle’s water gun, which is a shame because the move looks cool.
 
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CannonStreak

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It's...not? Why would it be. That's not the point. The point is that technology replacing a thing doesn't mean that all skill of that thing passes from human knowledge. It just transitions into being something people do purely for passion, instead of something they do for money.

People who still work with horses do it because they love horses. Not because it pays their bills. And by that same token, people will still make art, even if AI replaces most commercial art.

The idea that "But humans will forget how to art!" is dumb. Because people will keep making art out of a love of art. Just like we didn't forget how to ride horses.
I did not say forget now, did I? Plus, some people want to do art as a job, or both passion and a job, but they can't do it if they are being replaced by technology? Not everyone is doing art in their spare time you know, and in fact, some people might use technology/AI to do art for them. In fact, some people draw on computers rather than old methods done by hand, which can be dying out like extinct languages. There are some hand based methods of art that have been replaced. What if we do not have access to technology in the future?

Horse riding is different than AI or art in this case. Art has more job openings than what horses can be used for, anyway.

Cappy's eyes don't show all the time when he's in hat form. He can simply keep them hidden. Even then, Smash doesn't really care about canon "pre-requisites", as I'll call them. "How could he use his hat if it were not Cappy?" is like saying "how can Olimar pluck Pikmin in Smash when there aren't any sprouts in sight?"

Mario throwing his hat for a move shouldn't be this controversial, and I really don't think it would be had it made it into the game.
That is not what I meant (I was trying to type on the phone). Let me say that a hat is still a hat no matter what or who it is, Mario has still hardly used it as a weapon, and using it, whether as Cappy or just a hat, in one game does not change that. And keeping Cappy's eyes hidden is just a cosmetic argument to me, not that it matters because it was more of a hat itself that I was talking about. Why should it be used in Smash Bros. as a weapon when it has not been used much as a weapon outside of Odyssey? A hat being part of Mario's design and character does only so much.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I never found FLUDD outdated because it's just one part of his moveset.

If anything Super Jump Punch is strange because it's... Just an uppercut.
 

Louie G.

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Why should it be used in Smash Bros. as a weapon when it has not been used much as a weapon outside of Odyssey? A hat being part of Mario's design and character does only so much.
Bowser had never used his shell to attack until Melee. It’s really not a big deal, and Smash intentionally takes liberties involving these prominent design elements. Sakurai has said as much several times, so only doing “so much” often means being the basis for like four or five attacks.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Y'all wanted "outdated" references removed for other "outdated" references.

At least show some consistency. The Galaxy Spin isn't modern either.
 

Gorgonzales

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Y'all wanted "outdated" references removed for other "outdated" references.

At least show some consistency. The Galaxy Spin isn't modern either.
But Mario still spin-jumps in his 2D outings (some 3D stuff too), and the Galaxy spin isn't an egregious prop reference like FLUDD is. Galaxy Spin is the best contender for a new up-special because you can't argue that it's not something that Mario just doesn't do on a semi-frequent basis. Because he literally does.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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But Mario still spin-jumps in his 2D outings (some 3D stuff too), and the Galaxy spin isn't an egregious prop reference like FLUDD is. Galaxy Spin is the best contender for a new up-special because you can't argue that it's not something that Mario just doesn't do on a semi-frequent basis. Because he literally does.
His regular spin is already his down air though.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Bowser had never used his shell to attack until Melee. It’s really not a big deal, and Smash intentionally takes liberties involving these prominent design elements. Sakurai has said as much several times, so only doing “so much” often means being the basis for like four or five attacks.
It dawned on me only recently, but now I'm pretty confident Bowser's up B has been a reference to the Koopalings' attacks in Bros. 3/World all along.
 
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Ivander

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I never hated Fludd, especially in Super Mario Sunshine. As much as that game has issues with it's collection stuff, the mobility you had with Fludd in that game was incredible and I remember being sad when Mario lost that mobility in Galaxy.
 

CannonStreak

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I should probably make one thing more clear. The part where I said "How can Mario use his hat as a weapon if it is not Cappy?", something like that, I meant Mario's hat, when it is not Cappy, does not seem to have the magical abilities as Cappy does. I can still imagine the throw thing, but I am not sure how it could be as effective without it being Cappy. I do think there is something about Cappy and any possible powers he has that makes the hat throwing something an ordinary version of the hat could not do.
 

Gorgonzales

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I should probably make one thing more clear. The part where I said "How can Mario use his hat as a weapon if it is not Cappy?", something like that, I meant Mario's hat, when it is not Cappy, does not seem to have the magical abilities as Cappy does. I can still imagine the throw thing, but I am not sure how it could be as effective without it being Cappy. I do think there is something about Cappy and any possible powers he has that makes the hat throwing something an ordinary version of the hat could not do.
Sure would be strange if Mario could throw fireballs in Smash without first acquiring a Fire Flower.

Look man, I don't understand how it's so difficult suspend your disbelief for Mario throwing his hat and it magically coming back to him when we are talking about a character that happens to be a pyrokinetic italian plumber that can leap 5 feet into the air and throw monsters five times his size by the tail. There are entire characters in this series that function in a more egregious manner than this one move proposal.
 
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