Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ace C.R.O.S.S.]

Its definitely a series i want to see in smash now that one of the hurdles that would seemingly prevent it from joining is gone.


I still dont think it'll ever happen though, it sells enough to be localized but its definitely not well known in the west.

Kinda hard to see it happening, specially as a fighter since the point of SRW are obviously the mechs...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Kinda hard to see it happening, specially as a fighter since the point of SRW are obviously the mechs...

Ah but you see, neither smash bros nor SRW care about canonical sizes lol

That's the entire reason SRW uses chibi sprites for the mechs, so everyone is in scale with each other. Just make a 3D version of said chibi styled mech like Cybuster or Gespents.

 

[Ace C.R.O.S.S.]

Ah but you see, neither smash bros nor SRW care about canonical sizes lol

That's the entire reason SRW uses chibi sprites for the mechs, so everyone is in scale with each other. Just make a 3D version of said chibi styled mech like Cybuster or Gespents.

I would feel bad for the pilots though... If i were to chose it would be either Masaki or Sanger.
Man, this reminds me when i made a support thread for Reiji and Xiaomu during Ultimate.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Regarding Meowth, I’m actually curious where it was in terms of priority in Melee given the file name and its absence as a pokeball item. In a prior response, it was stated that Wario would’ve been the ninth unique fighter had time contraints permitted, so I’m wondering if Meowth was the one right after Wario at the time of Melee?

Wario was the third highest ranked Mario character on the official Smash 2 poll, behind . Meowth was...not right behind Mewtwo when it came to Pokemon.

...but I think the way Sakurai eventually implemented Red would've taken away too many fighter resources had they made PT with all his three Pokemon for Melee, and "Any Pokemon" would include Meowth, so I guess those results were skipped over. Can't think of why Mew and Lugia were outside of maybe thinking Lugia was too big inb4 ridley

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I would feel bad for the pilots though... If i were to chose it would be either Masaki or Sanger.
Man, this reminds me when i made a support thread for Reiji and Xiaomu during Ultimate.

I feel like Masaki/Cybuster would be the best choice for something like this.

Out of the franchise's original cast he's shown up the most in the english localized games, so even if he doesnt show up in all the games, people outside of japan are likely to see him more than the other original characters.

 

[Kirbeh]

Ah but you see, neither smash bros nor SRW care about canonical sizes lol

That's the entire reason SRW uses chibi sprites for the mechs, so everyone is in scale with each other. Just make a 3D version of said chibi styled mech like Cybuster or Gespents.

Since we're already on the subject of Pokemon, why not make the mech around the size of the other fighters and rather than pilot it directly, whoever is in control is standing in the background like controlling them remotely. Solves the size issue while giving the pilots some screentime too.

Yeah there's a few gym leaders that you could proabably make a case for too, like Sabrina come to mind because she canonically have psychic powers or Crasher Wake from gen 4 who is a wrestler. But I feel like Giovanni, Ghetsis and Guzma are just way more iconic because they're cool vilains and not just gym leaders that you'll fight once and pretty much forgot after.

While they're definitely more iconic, I think they're overall also less suited to being playable fighters.

Giovanni would absolutely just sit back and let his Pokemon/underlings do all the fighting. Same goes for Ghetsis. I don't see Guzma fighting either tbh. I suppose to use his own words, if one asked him to try fighting Bowser or Ridley or any Pokemon for that matter he'd probably refuse with a "Y'all are stupid" if you think he'd even attempt such a thing. He'd let Golisopod do the fighting, not throw himself out into harms way.
Point being, as much as like those charcaters and would gladly have them in the game, I think it'd be best if they remain in the background like while you take control of their signature Pokemon. Pokemon are after all the actual fighters anyway.

Not to say I'm completely opposed to the idea of fighitng as one of the human characters, but it'd have to be someone actually known for being a martial artist or other more active profession like a Pokemon Ranger sort of deal.

I'd be more than happy to see them convert Bruno, Marhsal or Bea into fighters for example.

That’s true. My original idea for the concept years ago was Lysandre. It just felt like a missed opportunity not to do something with those Dr. Octopus arms of his. I’d love to see any of the ones you mentioned though, particularly Guzma.

I'd honestly forgotten Lysandre goes Doc Oc at the end of X/Y, if they leaned into that I actually think he could work. My go to example will always be Mother Beast Lusamine though. Huge, missed opportunity in the games themselves to not battle her instead of just rematching her team. I made a moveset for her too back during Ultimate speculation, should still be floating around if the support threads are still up.

And to also briefly touch on Meowth, while I do think it's iconic enough to warrant inclusion, I am against the common notion that it should have gotten in, in place of Puff. I will admit complete bias there though as is one of favorite Pokemon. Dev wise, the inclusion made sense though.

That aside, I'd still like to see Meowth make it in at some point, but I am opposed to it being the anime Meowth specifically or some kind of Team Rocket trio character. Jessie, James and Meowth are certainly an iconic trio, and they're probably my favorite characters from the anime, but I'm just not fond of the idea of having them in Smash. Being anime characters aside, I also don't think it's a fitting role for them personally. Especially when discussing how they would even play it's often just left to them throwing out all their Pokemon for different moves, which just feels kind of cluttered and lacking cohesion. Even if they were eligible, I just think you have better options for Pokemon and the joke or summoner archetypes.

It's not even that I don't think you can make a neat moveset for them, but at that point, I think it'd make more sense to act more like Doronjo (she gets brought up a lot these days huh?) in TvC. Then rather than different Pokemon for every move, you have them come in for specials and maybe smash attacks. They'd behave more like assists in a MvC game or have functions like Maya for MvC Phoenix Wright and Striders entourage of robot animals.

If we ever get a VS style game made by Capcom that includes Pokemon, I think they'd be perfect fits there.

Though they do technically have game counterparts... but then that wouldn't be what fans of the characters actually want. Hard to say honestly.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Since we're already on the subject of Pokemon, why not make the mech around the size of the other fighters and rather than pilot it directly, whoever is in control is standing in the background like controlling them remotely. Solves the size issue while giving the pilots some screentime too.

What your describing is basically the battle system in Super robot wars OG: Endless Frontier.

Where the original cast from that game fight on foot tag teaming with miniaturized version of the mechs.

The main protagonist of that specific game might be familiar to people on this forum since he shows up as a party member in the first Project X Zone game

Where in that games story Gespents (his robot) goes maverick so he chases after it ending up on earth where he joins the other Bamco/Capcom/Sega heroes to get his partner back.

 

[Kirbeh]

What your describing is basically the battle system in Super robot wars OG: Endless Frontier.

Where the original cast from that game fight on foot tag teaming with miniaturized version of the mechs.

The main protagonist of that specific game might be familiar to people on this forum since he shows up as a party member in the first Project X Zone game

Where in that games story Gespents (his robot) goes maverick so he chases after it ending up on earth where he joins the other Bamco/Capcom/Sega heroes to get his partner back.

Well, I suppose if there's even precedent for it, that makes it less of an issue then. Not familiar with SRW myself, so I don't know how reception would be for its actual audience, especially in a case where they use a character not known for this. That's probably something the team would take into account.

 

[Laniv]

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled Tom Nook discussion.

I am summoned (again)

Do y'all think he'd have Villager and Isabelle's Final Smash? Or would he just KO foes with the power of sheer crippling debt?

 

[Kirbeh]

I am summoned (again)

Do y'all think he'd have Villager and Isabelle's Final Smash? Or would he just KO foes with the power of sheer crippling debt?

Both.

I think it'd be really funny if they do the whole building the house thing, but the opponent/s aren't trapped inside. They're all excited like Villager is during his FS, but then Nook pulls out the bill and that's what sends them flying.

 

[dream1ng]

But then again, there's also Sakurai saying that Mii costumes were like consolation prizes for characters people wanted

If you're arguing that this statement inherently implies an intent to make that character playable in the future (which it doesn't), then you have to apply it to every Mii costume. You don't get to cherrypick and decide to whom it does and doesn't apply.

It would apply to, like, Ryo Sakazaki or Goemon as much as it would any other.

Which helps show why the statement in and of itself is not some blanket "next time I intend to make them playable" insinuation. Especially given how none of the third-party costumes we got last time actually became playable. Not one.

and then Id Software also went to Nintendo about Doom Slayer's appearance.

Right, and Ubisoft provided Sakurai with an entire model for Rayman. Suda51 constantly asks Sakurai about adding Travis. Toby Fox composed a special remix for Sans. All the devs are eager to cooperate. But Sakurai and Nintendo choose the characters.

A license holder having input on their character's depiction is literally nothing but the status quo.

Meanwhile, we don't know the exact story behind the SMRPG characters or the VF characters (though Akira did become an AT in the next game, so there was a slight change with him).

Doesn't matter, there's zero evidence of the third-party costumes actually leading to being a playable character. So your conclusion where it starts the ball rolling for playability is, by its definition, completely unsubstantiated.

More over, even if next time two or three of the costumes are upgraded, that still means just having a costume more than likely won't see you get upgraded.

Actually, having a Mii costume in Smash shows that it's not a real hurdle for him as people seem to think, as he almost literally has a presence in Smash.

Ok, so by that logic, the west is all very familiar with Gil now, right? Because he had not just a presence in Smash, but a presence in two Smash games.

So if he's revealed, there wouldn't be a much much higher proportion of the people in the west going "who?" than normal, right? Because he's had a presence in Smash. So he's well known enough.

And the fact that it has a fanbase in Japan shows that this is really a non-issue.

A fanbase can literally be like 100 people online. That's nothing. That doesn't mean it isn't still significantly lopsided. Existing doesn't preclude being niche.

Takamaru has a fanbase in the west and Sakurai still says he's not well known enough.


I don't think any of these examples conferred the actual implication you were suggesting it did. Most didn't even apply to Doom Slayer any more than dozens of other characters.

 

[Perkilator]

What your describing is basically the battle system in Super robot wars OG: Endless Frontier.

Where the original cast from that game fight on foot tag teaming with miniaturized version of the mechs.

The main protagonist of that specific game might be familiar to people on this forum since he shows up as a party member in the first Project X Zone game

Where in that games story Gespents (his robot) goes maverick so he chases after it ending up on earth where he joins the other Bamco/Capcom/Sega heroes to get his partner back.

Oh yeah: also in the first PxZ, Sänger fights on foot as a Solo Unit and is also a boss.

 

[Wonder Smash]

If you're arguing that this statement inherently implies an intent to make that character playable in the future (which it doesn't), then you have to apply it to every Mii costume. You don't get to cherrypick and decide to whom it does and doesn't apply.

It would apply to, like, Ryo Sakazaki or Goemon as much as it would any other.

Which helps show why the statement in and of itself is not some blanket "next time I intend to make them playable" insinuation. Especially given how none of the third-party costumes we got last time actually became playable. Not one.

Such a thing was never mentioned during Smash 4 and we don't even know if those characters were heavily requested anyway, so that's different. And it's not really cherrypicking and deciding who it does and doesn't apply to. We just know that that's the case based on what Sakurai said during Ultimate and we can't say for sure that the third-party costumes won't become playable in the next game.

Right, and Ubisoft provided Sakurai with an entire model for Rayman. Suda51 constantly asks Sakurai about adding Travis. Toby Fox composed a special remix for Sans. All the devs are eager to cooperate. But Sakurai and Nintendo choose the characters.

A license holder having input on their character's depiction is literally nothing but the status quo.

I'm pretty sure there were reasons for those contents from those series and why the others got in instead of them. That doesn't mean that they can't get in the next game.

Remember, Kojima was "begging" Sakurai about getting Snake in Melee, yet it resulted in the character getting the NEXT game instead and there was a reason for that.

Doesn't matter, there's zero evidence of the third-party costumes actually leading to being a playable character. So your conclusion where it starts the ball rolling for playability is, by its definition, completely unsubstantiated.

More over, even if next time two or three of the costumes are upgraded, that still means just having a costume more than likely won't see you get upgraded.

Again, we don't know the exact story behind those characters' appearances (unlike Doom Slayer) and Sakurai never mentioned Mii costumes as consolation prizes during Smash 4. So there's also zero evidence that highly requested characters being Mii costumes won't lead to them being playable characters either.

Ok, so by that logic, the west is all very familiar with Gil now, right? Because he had not just a presence in Smash, but a presence in two Smash games.

So if he's revealed, there wouldn't be a much much higher proportion of the people in the west going "who?" than normal, right? Because he's had a presence in Smash. So he's well known enough.

Some people do know who Gil is and more people likely would recognize him as a costume in Smash.

Though I did notice you trying to exaggerate things, as I never said "all" people would.

A fanbase can literally be like 100 people online. That's nothing. That doesn't mean it isn't still significantly lopsided. Existing doesn't preclude being niche.

Takamaru has a fanbase in the west and Sakurai still says he's not well known enough.


I don't think any of these examples conferred the actual implication you were suggesting it did. Most didn't even apply to Doom Slayer any more than dozens of other characters.

But then again, Takamaru only has one game that, for a long time, was only in Japan. Heck, he probably wasn't even that well-known among Nintendo fans. So it's not comparable.

The problem is, you're splitting up the reasons for what makes Doom Slayer's case more unique than others. It's not just because he's a Mii costume, it's not just because his company contacted Nintendo about his appearance, and it's not just because Sakurai described some costumes as consolation prizes. It's a combination of all those things with Doom Slayer, something you can't really say for other characters. It didn't help that you went back to Smash 4 when none of the costumes were compared to any of the ones in Ultimate anyway.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Remember, Kojima was "begging" Sakurai about getting Snake in Melee, yet it resulted in the character getting the NEXT game instead and there was a reason for that.

I'm convinced that's why Switch is getting so many new budget entries in classic franchises like Ghosts 'n Goblins, River City and Contra.

It's those companies trying to get Smash-senpai to notice them.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Well, I suppose if there's even precedent for it, that makes it less of an issue then. Not familiar with SRW myself, so I don't know how reception would be for its actual audience, especially in a case where they use a character not known for this. That's probably something the team would take into account.

Another way i thought of representing the pilots would be something akin to Palutena's guidance or Snakes codecs, where they would have something small to say about the fighter their up against in the hypothetical srw homestage.

Because its a thing in the games where the original characters tend to always have a unique line of dialogue when going up against the licensed villains featured as boss characters.

I thought of two random examples off the top of my head for this using Masaki as the guy talking

"I hear some people have called you 'knight of the wind'? Lets see how you handle the LORD of the wind!" with Sonic.

Or "You sure you can fight without your robot? Alright then, show me what you got." for Pacman. Referencing how Pacman was in one of these games as a playable character at one point piloting a giant robot version of himself. The Sonic one just being a nod to Masaki's robot the cybuster having "Lord of the wind" as it's title, thats a lore thing.

 

[PeridotGX]

Spoiler: Scarlet/Violet DLC

I think it would be funny if sakurai saw this creature and instantly decided "yes. this must be in the next Smash"

 

[Kirbeh]

Spoiler: Scarlet/Violet DLC

View attachment 381688

I think it would be funny if sakurai saw this creature and instantly decided "yes. this must be in the next Smash"

Is there a joke/reference I'm missing here? Or is mecha Terrakion just seen as particularly amusing for some reason?

 

[fogbadge]

Wario was the third highest ranked Mario character on the official Smash 2 poll, behind . Meowth was...not right behind Mewtwo when it came to Pokemon.
View attachment 381680
...but I think the way Sakurai eventually implemented Red would've taken away too many fighter resources had they made PT with all his three Pokemon for Melee, and "Any Pokemon" would include Meowth, so I guess those results were skipped over. Can't think of why Mew and Lugia were outside of maybe thinking Lugia was too big inb4 ridley

that's probably the only time you'll see toad place higher than geno

 

[Will]

that's probably the only time you'll see toad place higher than geno

Within Smashboards? Sure, maybe, in this thread.

Everywhere else? I think Toad still tops character request charts to this day.

 

[fogbadge]

Within Smashboards? Sure, maybe, in this thread.

Everywhere else? I think Toad still tops character request charts to this day.

well, good

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Also no, this would not work at all. King Hippo has more in common with K. Rool than he does with Little Mac, if anything. He's literally in the complete opposite weight class, towers over him at about twice his size, would look awkward as hell doing most of what Mac does. No Punch-Out boxer works as a Little Mac derivative on principle - the deliberate and obvious contrast between Mac and his opponent is the crux of the series.

I'd say Little Mac's own moveset doesn't even suit himself. Taking that and pasting it on some other Punch-Out boxer would not at all solve the problems I have with how the franchise is represented

 

[Sucumbio]

I'd say Little Mac's own moveset doesn't even suit himself. Taking that and pasting it on some other Punch-Out boxer would not at all solve the problems I have with how the franchise is represented

Had it been me designing Little Mac I'd have started with an NES controller held claw style, which is how I play it. I'd ignore his AT at first just concentrating on his left, right highs lows duck and side step. Once those basics were translated then I'd develop a star mechanism that he alone scores off successfully landing a hit of some kind , causing stagger and awarding him +1 to his star meter. With star meter he can score star punch which isn't insta death, never was, but is a substantial hit and if say scores off a star chain could be huge knock back etc. Then there's hearts, wiffs and on shield which could influence things like endlag, stale, kbg, whatever. Once all that's done a d we see what's happening then you tackle recovery and flesh out whatever extras you want seeing as all the above wou8use more than half the available buttons.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'd say Little Mac's own moveset doesn't even suit himself. Taking that and pasting it on some other Punch-Out boxer would not at all solve the problems I have with how the franchise is represented

It does suit him. The attacks he has both originate from him and fits the type of character he is.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Little Mac is great. He doesn't have star punches, but that's because he's based on his SNES mechanics, not his NES/Wii mechanics.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Yeah balancing issue aside, I don't really see the problem with Mac moveset. Punch Out is suppose to be a "easy to learn, hard to master" type of game and Little mac represent just that. He's easily punishable, which is exactly how boxing work not just in Punch-Out but in real life too.

Not every character need super complex mechanics. He punches stuff and that's cool enough, that's how is original game works.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yeah balancing issue aside, I don't really see the problem with Mac moveset. Punch Out is suppose to be a "easy to learn, hard to master" type of game and Little mac represent just that. He's easily punishable, which is exactly how boxing work not just in Punch-Out but in real life too.

Not every character need super complex mechanics. He punches stuff and that's cool enough, that's how is original game works.

I don't want super complex mechanics. I mainly want to see them downplay the sucking-in-the-air thing a bit, and maybe change his down B so he immediately dodges without waiting for an attack, and you can press B again for a followup attack. Nothing against down-B counters, I just think Mac's is one that can be changed to be a different kind of move.

 

[Perkilator]

Faithful to the original game or not, Little Mac's moveset isn't really fun.

So, I decided to remake it.

Spoiler

Intro: Little Mac walks onto the stage while throwing a series of punches before tossing his hoodie off (assuming it’s not one of his alts).

Stance/Idle 1: Little Mac takes a boxer’s fighting stance.
Idle 2: Little Mac shuffles his feet.
Idle 3: Little Mac shifts his head back and forth in front of his fists.

Notable Palette Swaps

1. Normal
   • Default
   • NES sprite (white)
   • Major Circuit (blue)
   • World Circuit (red)
   • Title Defense (yellow)
   • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
   • SNES colors (green)
   • Hoodie (special costume)
2. Wireframe
   • Default
   • NES sprite (white)
   • Major Circuit (blue)
   • World Circuit (red)
   • Title Defense (yellow)
   • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
   • SNES colors (green)
   • Wireframe hoodie (special costume)

Walk: Little Mac walks forward.
Dash: Little Mac dashes forward.
Damage: Little Mac’s damage animation from the Wii game.
Jump: Little Mac jumps so low, he needs to double jump in order to properly reach one of the lower two of Battlefield’s platforms.
Crouch: Little Mac couches with his fists in front of his face.

Normal Attacks
Jab: Little Mac jabs twice (3%, small knockback), followed by a flurry of jabs (.5% each hit), finishing with an uppercut (5%, small knockback)
Forward+A: Little Mac performs a one-two combo (12%, OK knockback)
Up+A: Little Mac performs an overhead arcing backfist (9%, small knockback)
Down+A: Little Mac performs a crouching hook (7%, small knockback)
Dash Attack: A lunging overhand (13%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Little Mac throws a lunging punch (9%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Little Mac throws a punch on both sides (7%, small knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Little Mac puts his knee and elbow close to each other (8%, small knockback)
Air Forward+A: Little Mac punches straight in front of himself (9%, small knockback)
Air Back + A: Little Mac performs a backwards elbow sweep (8%, small knockback)
Air Up+A: Little Mac takes a moment, then throws an uppercut (9%, small knockback)
Air Down+A: Little Mac winds up, then punches downward (12% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Little Mac steps forward punches straight forward with considerable force (24%, medium knockback)
Up+A: Little Mac steps forward and performs a mighty uppercut (24%, medium knockback)
Down+A: Little Mac steps forward and performs a body hook (24%, medium knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Little Mac clinches the opponent.
Pummel: Little Mac performs a short straight-punch (1%)
Forwards+Throw: Little Mac rears his arm back and throws an overhand (8%, small knockback)
Back+Throw: Little Mac spins the opponent around and throws an uppercut (12%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Little Mac performs a short uppercut (7%, small knockback)
Down+Throw: Little Mac performs an over head (9%, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Straight Lunge; Little Mac rears an arm back and charges a punch that slides him forward (30% at full charge, far knockback)
B + ← → : Jolt Haymaker; Little Mac leaps forward and performs a downward hook (13%, OK knockback)
B + ↑ : Star Uppercut; Little Mac performs a jumping, right-handed corkscrew uppercut. The attack is boosted by a Star Meter with three stars; the height and power are determined by how many stars Little Mac has. If Little Mac uses the full version and the opponent is at high enough damage, Mac earns a Star K.O.
B + ↓ : Star Counter; Little Mac performs a counter that adds a star to the Star Meter.

Final Smash: Giga Mac; Little Mac transforms into Giga Mac, and his normal moveset receives a monstrous power-up. He reverts back after 10 seconds.

Taunts
Up: Little Mac turns his back to the screen, bends down, then raises his fist triumphantly. Sometimes, Doc Louis will chime in and say "Hit 'em, baby!"
Side: Little Mac further secures his right boxing glove by pulling its string with his teeth, then resumes his battle stance while scoffing. Sometimes, Doc Louis will chime in and say "Let 'em have it, Mac!"
Down: Little Mac throws a series of punches while facing the screen and then smirking. Sometimes, Doc Louis will chime in and say "Show 'em what you got, Mac baby!"

Winposes
1: Little Mac’s victory pose in the Wii game when he wins the title bout for a circuit.
2: Little Mac’s victory pose in the Wii game when he wins with a sliver of health.
3: Little Mac’s victory pose in the Wii game when he wins with a TKO.

Applause: A bruised Little Mac claps for the winner.
Icon: The boxing glove in the Wii game’s logo.
Boxing Ring Title: The Bruiser from the Bronx.
Star K.O.: https://youtu.be/gL3PIOFP5iI?t=221
Victory Music: Victory! Punch-Out
Kirby Hat: Mac’s hair. The Star Meter slowly fills over time, but it stops when you use the no-star version of the Star Punch.

 

[Louie G.]

Not every character need super complex mechanics. He punches stuff and that's cool enough, that's how is original game works.

Star Punch discussion aside the issue with Mac is absolutely not a matter of him needing some extra gimmick stacked on top. If anything Smash has made him too gimmicky and too polarizing as is. Hard to master sure, but mastering Little Mac isn't particularly rewarding because he is far too exploitable for a bulk of the cast. The only time it feels especially rewarding is against heavyweights, fittingly enough. But don't get it twisted, this is not about giving Mac overbearing DLC spice and stacking on three extra meters.

I don't think Mac should be a beast in the air, but he should have options. Smash Ultimate is an air focused game and floundering around up there to be combo food is a guarantee to make you a complete joke. I'm not opposed to the concept behind this but the extremity of its execution has put me off to it because it truly defines the character in a way no other character's shortcoming does. The grounded strength was supposed to make up for this and it does so by uncharacteristically giving Little Mac "will power" super armored smash attacks. The opposite is true of Mac in his games, he needs to be smart about going fists ablaze into a fight and is much more about quick bops to the nose taking advantage of openings, not trucking through with big stupid swings.

Personally I think keeping Mac an extreme glass cannon and simply having a weak recovery are enough of a clear weakness where you don't have to overcompensate any further. Smash 4 had a tendency to go overboard with some character quirks to varying results, and this design feels especially archaic and dissatisfying when characters like Incineroar and Kazuya are doing very similar things and are just way better at it.

 

[Sucumbio]

Faithful to the original game or not, Little Mac's moveset isn't really fun.

So, I decided to remake it.

Spoiler

Intro: Little Mac walks onto the stage while throwing a series of punches before tossing his hoodie off (assuming it’s not one of his alts).

Stance/Idle 1: Little Mac takes a boxer’s fighting stance.
Idle 2: Little Mac shuffles his feet.
Idle 3: Little Mac shifts his head back and forth in front of his fists.

Notable Palette Swaps

1. Normal
   • Default
   • NES sprite (white)
   • Major Circuit (blue)
   • World Circuit (red)
   • Title Defense (yellow)
   • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
   • SNES colors (green)
   • Hoodie (special costume)
2. Wireframe
   • Default
   • NES sprite (white)
   • Major Circuit (blue)
   • World Circuit (red)
   • Title Defense (yellow)
   • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
   • SNES colors (green)
   • Wireframe hoodie (special costume)

Walk: Little Mac walks forward.
Dash: Little Mac dashes forward.
Damage: Little Mac’s damage animation from the Wii game.
Jump: Little Mac jumps so low, he needs to double jump in order to properly reach one of the lower two of Battlefield’s platforms.
Crouch: Little Mac couches with his fists in front of his face.

Normal Attacks
Jab: Little Mac jabs twice (3%, small knockback), followed by a flurry of jabs (.5% each hit), finishing with an uppercut (5%, small knockback)
Forward+A: Little Mac performs a one-two combo (12%, OK knockback)
Up+A: Little Mac performs an overhead arcing backfist (9%, small knockback)
Down+A: Little Mac performs a crouching hook (7%, small knockback)
Dash Attack: A lunging overhand (13%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Little Mac throws a lunging punch (9%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Little Mac throws a punch on both sides (7%, small knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Little Mac puts his knee and elbow close to each other (8%, small knockback)
Air Forward+A: Little Mac punches straight in front of himself (9%, small knockback)
Air Back + A: Little Mac performs a backwards elbow sweep (8%, small knockback)
Air Up+A: Little Mac takes a moment, then throws an uppercut (9%, small knockback)
Air Down+A: Little Mac winds up, then punches downward (12% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Little Mac steps forward punches straight forward with considerable force (24%, medium knockback)
Up+A: Little Mac steps forward and performs a mighty uppercut (24%, medium knockback)
Down+A: Little Mac steps forward and performs a body hook (24%, medium knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Little Mac clinches the opponent.
Pummel: Little Mac performs a short straight-punch (1%)
Forwards+Throw: Little Mac rears his arm back and throws an overhand (8%, small knockback)
Back+Throw: Little Mac spins the opponent around and throws an uppercut (12%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Little Mac performs a short uppercut (7%, small knockback)
Down+Throw: Little Mac performs an over head (9%, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Straight Lunge; Little Mac rears an arm back and charges a punch that slides him forward (30% at full charge, far knockback)
B + ← → : Jolt Haymaker; Little Mac leaps forward and performs a downward hook (13%, OK knockback)
B + ↑ : Star Uppercut; Little Mac performs a jumping, right-handed corkscrew uppercut. The attack is boosted by a Star Meter with three stars; the height and power are determined by how many stars Little Mac has. If Little Mac uses the full version and the opponent is at high enough damage, Mac earns a Star K.O.
B + ↓ : Star Counter; Little Mac performs a counter that adds a star to the Star Meter.

Final Smash: Giga Mac; Little Mac transforms into Giga Mac, and his normal moveset receives a monstrous power-up. He reverts back after 10 seconds.

Taunts
Up: Little Mac turns his back to the screen, bends down, then raises his fist triumphantly. Sometimes, Doc Louis will chime in and say "Hit 'em, baby!"
Side: Little Mac further secures his right boxing glove by pulling its string with his teeth, then resumes his battle stance while scoffing. Sometimes, Doc Louis will chime in and say "Let 'em have it, Mac!"
Down: Little Mac throws a series of punches while facing the screen and then smirking. Sometimes, Doc Louis will chime in and say "Show 'em what you got, Mac baby!"

Winposes
1: Little Mac’s victory pose in the Wii game when he wins the title bout for a circuit.
2: Little Mac’s victory pose in the Wii game when he wins with a sliver of health.
3: Little Mac’s victory pose in the Wii game when he wins with a TKO.

Applause: A bruised Little Mac claps for the winner.
Icon: The boxing glove in the Wii game’s logo.
Boxing Ring Title: The Bruiser from the Bronx.
Star K.O.: https://youtu.be/gL3PIOFP5iI?t=221
Victory Music: Victory! Punch-Out
Kirby Hat: Mac’s hair. The Star Meter slowly fills over time, but it stops when you use the no-star version of the Star Punch.

Shout out to the use of a Star meter!

 

[Wonder Smash]

I don't want super complex mechanics. I mainly want to see them downplay the sucking-in-the-air thing a bit, and maybe change his down B so he immediately dodges without waiting for an attack, and you can press B again for a followup attack. Nothing against down-B counters, I just think Mac's is one that can be changed to be a different kind of move.

I say they can definitely improve his air game a little bit. At least not make his KO Punch weak in the air too. I always felt that that was very unnecessary.

But I'm okay with the Slip Counter the way it is, though.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But I'm okay with the way his Slip Counter the way it is, though.

The problem I have isn't really its function so much as that the animation of the attack reminds me of Slayer's Dandy Step+followups in Guilty Gear

rather than any special move in any fighting game whose function is to be a counter. It's nitpicky, I know.

 

[PeridotGX]

Is there a joke/reference I'm missing here? Or is mecha Terrakion just seen as particularly amusing for some reason?

No it's literally just the idea of Sakurai going gung-ho on Iron ****ing Boulder.

I guess it's not that funny

 

[Louie G.]

The problem I have isn't really its function so much as that the animation of the attack reminds me of Slayer's Dandy Step+followups in Guilty Gear

This is more fitting for Little Mac anyway, since Punch-Out is all about strategically timed dodges. Before I knew what Guilty Gear was and before Little Mac was revealed for the game this is still the way I was conceptualizing his Down B, because it just makes too much sense.

 

[UserKev]

Little Mac is fine. Maybe he could use some small revamps like the star punch, but he's simply a boxer. Mac being an underdog is part of diversity. He's super fun to play as. He has armor and timable offensive benefits. Mac is just a victim of a whacky roster while being a normal fighter. That's what makes him wholly unique now.

 

[Louie G.]

Little Mac is fine. Maybe he could use some small revamps like the star punch, but he's simply a boxer. Mac being an underdog is part of diversity. He's super fun to play as. He has armor and timable offensive benefits. Mac is just a victim of a whacky roster while being a normal fighter. That's what makes him wholly unique now.

I feel like Little Mac being an "underdog" is an easy excuse to keep him undercooked and poorly equipped. It's technically true yes, and it can continue to be true in a rework through more subtle means than making him the most exploitable character on the roster.

I think Little Mac would serve just fine as an underdog if he was a more "honest" fighter, with less emphasis on crippling or extremely powerful gimmicks. He is "simply a boxer" with super armor and a KO meter - doesnt exactly contribute to his everyman underdog quality. I see that you played Little Mac in Smash 4 so I'm not trying to talk down to you - I'm sure you understand how the character plays. But I feel like none of the excuses particularly work because they don't go hard enough on any of them, and kinda just straight up contradict themselves. They feel more like bandaids that justify a poor character design, personally.

Being small, dying quickly and not having cheese is all more than enough to project that underdog feeling onto Little Mac. It shouldn't be a reason to keep him so heavily disadvantaged otherwise.

 

[Kirbeh]

As far as actual moves go, I do like what Mac has, but I do not understand why reigning in his extremes to make him better to play is something being contested now. No one is asking for some extreme gimmick or completely removing his weaknesses.

That aside, I do like the suggestion of converting Down B into a manual feint/follow-up system ala Slayer/Dudley/Vanessa.

As for the Star Punch, I personally like the SNES KO Meter, and functionally they're more or less the same thing. I'd settle for merging the two and just adding stars as effects for when he uses the KO Punch. Maybe reduce the power and let him stack a few that he can use in quick succession with stars representing how many he's got stocked,

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Which Pokemon is or are most likely to be a fighter?
Eevee, Cinderace, Urshifu, Meowscarada, or Gholdengo?

 

[PeridotGX]

Which Pokemon is or are most likely to be a fighter?
Eevee, Cinderace, Urshifu, Meowscarada, or Gholdengo?

The other day I made a post about how Pokemon Go was getting a Smash-themed event in January, and I ended it by theorizing that maybe it's a sign that there's more going on than an anniversary. I'm not entirely sold on it, but if there is some truth to it, I think it confirms that there's going to be a Pokemon - likely one that ties into Pokemon Go. The game didn't have an event for the release of base Ultimate, so doing it now makes me wonder if it's a two-way street. And if it is, it'll probably be Gholdengo. Gimmighoul was revealed through Go, has a form only available in Go, and was released six months before the rest of the Paldean dex. Hell, it's name has "Go" at the end (in every language, it's intentional). It's not quite at the level of Melmetal, but it definitely has a connection to the game - so it would be a great choice to represent Scarlet/Violet and Go.

If my crazy theory isn't true, i think the Pokemon rep will be something from gen 10 that doesn't yet exist.

 

[Sucumbio]

But I'm okay with the Slip Counter the way it is, though.

I wish you could cancel it if it's about to send you off stage or at least allow for auto turnaround...

Auto turnaround! Ooo what would he be like with that...

 

[Noipoi]

Which Pokemon is or are most likely to be a fighter?
Eevee, Cinderace, Urshifu, Meowscarada, or Gholdengo?

Tentaquil