Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Quillion]

It's a relative concept anyway. For some, the enjoyment of a fighter does come from the sense of feeling like they came right from their titles and are now in a fighting game.

I get that Smash is a crossover game and seeing characters interacting is part of the charm, but focusing on canon references as the defining characteristic of moveset enjoyment is shallow and reductive.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I get that Smash is a crossover game and seeing characters interacting is part of the charm, but focusing on canon references as the defining characteristic of moveset enjoyment is shallow and reductive.

It's a matter of degree really. I think many would love for movesets to be distinct/fun while being faithful to the core games of the characters at the same, but some just naturally trend towards one side or the other.

There's something to be said for the experimentation of creating moves for characters and trying to stay true to the spirit of the character without being chained by canon, while at some time acknowledging that it can be taken to excess to the point where a fighter borders on feeling pointless as inclusion because they feel so different from their games. Speaking personally, Diddy Kong is a case where the dissonance is such that it can impede my enjoyment because the contrast is too much of a distraction.

 

[Quillion]

There's something to be said for the experimentation of creating moves for characters and trying to stay true to the spirit of the character without being chained by canon, while at some time acknowledging that it can be taken to excess to the point where a fighter borders on feeling pointless as inclusion because they feel so different from their games. Speaking personally, Diddy Kong is a case where the dissonance is such that it can impede my enjoyment because the contrast is too much of a distraction.

And on the other hand, there are times when characters feel so poorly adapted to Smash because they focus way too much on bringing in as much as possible from their games instead of picking and choosing the best canon aspects while making changes to adapt (while also staying true to the spirit of the character). Mega Man, Ryu, Steve, Hero, and Bayonetta feel like that, while Villager and Shulk are borderline cases.

Also, what's missing from Diddy? He's got his cartwheel attack and his peanut popgun and rocketbarrels from DK64. What does he even need, a barrel throw? It would work even worse for him than it potentially would for Donkey Kong.

 

[Gengar84]

And on the other hand, there are times when characters feel so poorly adapted to Smash because they focus way too much on bringing in as much as possible from their games instead of picking and choosing the best canon aspects while making changes to adapt (while also staying true to the spirit of the character). Mega Man, Ryu, Steve, Hero, and Bayonetta feel like that, while Villager and Shulk are borderline cases.

Also, what's missing from Diddy? He's got his cartwheel attack and his peanut popgun and rocketbarrels from DK64. What does he even need, a barrel throw? It would work even worse for him than it potentially would for Donkey Kong.

I just wish they’d bring in a bit more from the SNES DKC games. My ideal scenario would have been a Diddy/Dixie pair up with tag mechanics and double team attacks (namely, the toss). I really want to see the animal buddies incorporated in some way in Smash, whether that be in Dixie’s moveset or as assist trophy like items.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

And on the other hand, there are times when characters feel so poorly adapted to Smash because they focus way too much on bringing in as much as possible from their games instead of picking and choosing the best canon aspects while making changes to adapt (while also staying true to the spirit of the character). Mega Man, Ryu, Steve, Hero, and Bayonetta feel like that, while Villager and Shulk are borderline cases.

Also, what's missing from Diddy? He's got his cartwheel attack and his peanut popgun and rocketbarrels from DK64. What does he even need, a barrel throw? It would work even worse for him than it potentially would for Donkey Kong.

The monkey flip feels off, especially the latter with the scratching up close and I'd take a barrel being utilized sooner than the random banana peel.

 

[Kirbeh]

And on the other hand, there are times when characters feel so poorly adapted to Smash because they focus way too much on bringing in as much as possible from their games instead of picking and choosing the best canon aspects while making changes to adapt (while also staying true to the spirit of the character). Mega Man, Ryu, Steve, Hero, and Bayonetta feel like that, while Villager and Shulk are borderline cases.

Also, what's missing from Diddy? He's got his cartwheel attack and his peanut popgun and rocketbarrels from DK64. What does he even need, a barrel throw? It would work even worse for him than it potentially would for Donkey Kong.

I don't think it's necessarily that Diddy needs a bunch of more DK references, I think the sentiment here is more so that Diddy in a way feels like a more extreme version of how DK was designed. DK is a big gorilla, but still feels like DK, he feels distinct. Diddy feels more like he leans more into just being an actual monkey. And I mean he is but his moveset feels less inspired. It is subjective but I have to agree with LiveStudioAudience. Smash Diddy has never felt particularly interesting to me. He felt most "in character" in Brawl, but only through his screentime in the SSE. I think he could do with some different moves, regardless of whether they're pulled from DKC or not. They just need to feel less wild monkey and more Diddy if that makes sense. Again, this one is really subjective, so I don't even know where you'd even start if you were to try.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I don't think it's necessarily that Diddy needs a bunch of more DK references, I think the sentiment here is more so that Diddy in a way feels like a more extreme version of how DK was designed. DK is a big gorilla, but still feels like DK, he feels distinct. Diddy feels more like he leans more into just being an actual monkey. And I mean he is but his moveset feels less inspired. It is subjective but I have to agree with LiveStudioAudience. Smash Diddy has never felt particularly interesting to me. He felt most "in character" in Brawl, but only through his screentime in the SSE. I think he could do with some different moves, regardless of whether they're pulled from DKC or not. They just need to feel less wild monkey and more Diddy if that makes sense. Again, this one is really subjective, so I don't even know where you'd even start if you were to try.

This.

Admittedly, Diddy's already a tough sell for me given the most significant game related stuff is from a game I'm iffy on (DK64) but in general a little more Diddy, a little less Kong (so to speak) would be nice.

 

[Perkilator]

I’m actually kind of OK with how Diddy is portrayed in Smash. I don’t necessarily see him needing more source material inspiration as much as Donkey Kong does.

 

[Quillion]

I don't think it's necessarily that Diddy needs a bunch of more DK references, I think the sentiment here is more so that Diddy in a way feels like a more extreme version of how DK was designed. DK is a big gorilla, but still feels like DK, he feels distinct. Diddy feels more like he leans more into just being an actual monkey. And I mean he is but his moveset feels less inspired. It is subjective but I have to agree with LiveStudioAudience. Smash Diddy has never felt particularly interesting to me. He felt most "in character" in Brawl, but only through his screentime in the SSE. I think he could do with some different moves, regardless of whether they're pulled from DKC or not. They just need to feel less wild monkey and more Diddy if that makes sense. Again, this one is really subjective, so I don't even know where you'd even start if you were to try.

This.

Admittedly, Diddy's already a tough sell for me given the most significant game related stuff is from a game I'm iffy on (DK64) but in general a little more Diddy, a little less Kong (so to speak) would be nice.

Different without necessarily being more canon, huh? Interesting take.

I guess Diddy was designed how he is similar to how Bowser was in Melee/Brawl: more animalistic to fit the "darker" look that Melee and Brawl were going for, but now it seems unfitting to many.

Maybe Diddy can rip off G&W and have a juggling ball throw much like his idle in DKC? I think Monkey Flip's command grab could be more of a combo starter without the "pummel", though that would require current Smash emphasizing easier combos instead of focusing mostly on keepaway.

Frankly, Diddy isn't the most interesting character, but I'd rather have him how he is now instead of a mess of barrel throws, boombox attacks, guitar attacks, and other stuff like that. There's a simplistic beauty in having simple martial arts as normals.

EDIT: I just thought of something to make Diddy more "cartoony": hip-hop moves. Maybe some of his normals could be some breakdance stuff since he had a hip-hop thing going on in DKC2.

 

[Ivander]

I don't mind Diddy's playstyle(although I wish his Rocketbarrel Up-B changed into something similar to Palutena's Jump Glide since his Rocketbarrels can hover glide since DKCR & TF), but I do kinda wish they'd do more references for him and make him a bit less animal-like outside of his playstyle, like having a special Victory animation involving his Boombox and sunglasses or having a juggling idle pose.

 

[Kirbeh]

Different without necessarily being more canon, huh? Interesting take.

I guess Diddy was designed how he is similar to how Bowser was in Melee/Brawl: more animalistic to fit the "darker" look that Melee and Brawl were going for, but now it seems unfitting to many.

Maybe Diddy can rip off G&W and have a juggling ball throw much like his idle in DKC? I think Monkey Flip's command grab could be more of a combo starter without the "pummel", though that would require current Smash emphasizing easier combos instead of focusing mostly on keepaway.

Frankly, Diddy isn't the most interesting character, but I'd rather have him how he is now instead of a mess of barrel throws, boombox attacks, guitar attacks, and other stuff like that. There's a simplistic beauty in having simple martial arts as normals.

EDIT: I just thought of something to make Diddy more "cartoony": hip-hop moves. Maybe some of his normals could be some breakdance stuff since he had a hip-hop thing going on in DKC2.

I don't think theming Diddy's moves around hip-hop is very fitting to be honest. If they brought in the boom box animation for a taunt or victory screen, I think that'd suffice. Same goes for the juggling.

I've been mulling it over though and I think the change that would work to make him less generic monkey and more Diddy without cluttering his moveset lies in his popguns.

Take for example. She uses the Paralyzer as a Down Smash, not just her special. I think a similar approach could work for Diddy where you change how Neutral Special works and also incorporate the popguns into more moves.

For neutral special he could fire off both guns with the peanuts traveling a set istance instead of being able to be charged. A one-two shot with one following shortly after the other.

In the air he fires both at the same time like in the SSE cut scene where he's shooting down bullet bills.

The charging of the guns then gets moved to his Smash attacks. Forward Smash produces a short range blast in front of him. Down Smash could be a modified version of the Popgun Pound from DKCR.

I would personally also like to change his up smash and some of his aerials, but I would keep them as physical attacks. I could see maybe giving him a short spin like DK's to replace the neutral air cartwheel. Need to to think about the rest though.

As for specials I'm okay with keeping Banana Peel and Monkey Flip, but I would get rid of the command grab on flip and make it more of straightforward mobility, get in/combo starter tool.

 

[Quillion]

I don't think theming Diddy's moves around hip-hop is very fitting to be honest. If they brought in the boom box animation for a taunt or victory screen, I think that'd suffice. Same goes for the juggling.

I've been mulling it over though and I think the change that would work to make him less generic monkey and more Diddy without cluttering his moveset lies in his popguns.

Take for example. She uses the Paralyzer as a Down Smash, not just her special. I think a similar approach could work for Diddy where you change how Neutral Special works and also incorporate the popguns into more moves.

For neutral special he could fire off both guns with the peanuts traveling a set istance instead of being able to be charged. A one-two shot with one following shortly after the other.

In the air he fires both at the same time like in the SSE cut scene where he's shooting down bullet bills.

The charging of the guns then gets moved to his Smash attacks. Forward Smash produces a short range blast in front of him. Down Smash could be a modified version of the Popgun Pound from DKCR.

I would personally also like to change his up smash and some of his aerials, but I would keep them as physical attacks. I could see maybe giving him a short spin like DK's to replace the neutral air cartwheel. Need to to think about the rest though.

As for specials I'm okay with keeping Banana Peel and Monkey Flip, but I would get rid of the command grab on flip and make it more of straightforward mobility, get in/combo starter tool.

Personally I don't think projectile normals would be fitting for Diddy the way it might be for Zelda (since I want her to have her light arrow on F-Smash).

If we really need the cartoony Diddy personality to shine through, I agree it should be through his taunts.

 

[Kirbeh]

Personally I don't think projectile normals would be fitting for Diddy the way it might be for Zelda (since I want her to have her light arrow on F-Smash).

If we really need the cartoony Diddy personality to shine through, I agree it should be through his taunts.

They're not projectile normals though...

Think Samus F Smash or Down Tilt. Close range explosions.

I also made a point of not using the popguns in his tilts or aerials. So no projectile normals.

 

[Diddy Kong]

There's nothing wrong with Diddy's moveset. However maybe a few tail based attacks couldn't hurt. It's weird how he's based around DK64 so much but doesn't use his tail outside his old jab tail wiggle. But characters with less impressive tails like Yoshi and Fox do. There's indeed something refreshing about him not being too complicated either. I'd like dual popguns , but Smash had such impact on his future DKC appearances that a single popgun is now more common than the dual ones.

He's not a character I'd change. He's competitively viable and well put together with his overall kit and balanced by being very technical. That's a well designed Smash character.

 

[Dinoman96]

TBH I was never a fan of how they changed Diddy's cartwheel from the original Rare animation going from Brawl to Smash 4.

The random slaps they bolted on at the end just don't do it for me.

But outside of that I think Diddy's moveset in Smash is alright, he has most of what you'd expect with the cartwheel (weird altered animation side) and also rocket barrel + peanut popguns. Maybe you could throw in some of his additional moves from DK64 in there but whatever.

 

[Opossum]

And on the other hand, there are times when characters feel so poorly adapted to Smash because they focus way too much on bringing in as much as possible from their games instead of picking and choosing the best canon aspects while making changes to adapt (while also staying true to the spirit of the character). Mega Man, Ryu, Steve, Hero, and Bayonetta feel like that, while Villager and Shulk are borderline cases.

Also, what's missing from Diddy? He's got his cartwheel attack and his peanut popgun and rocketbarrels from DK64. What does he even need, a barrel throw? It would work even worse for him than it potentially would for Donkey Kong.

I could understand the case for the others even if I highly disagree, but in what world is Ryu's moveset bloated and overcomplicated? He's incredibly straightforward, with the only thing even slightly complex being how he has light and heavy move variants. That's...not complicated.

 

[Gengar84]

I think complexity in character’s movesets can be great as long as they still play well and feel fun to play just using standard Smash inputs. For example, I’m no good at doing pretty much any of Kazuya’s combos but I still have a blast playing him because his standard inputs are still fun. Anything beyond that is a bonus and the other moves are fun to play around with even if I’m far from an expert.

As for Hero, I think the only real issue is with his down special. I think it’s fun to mess around with against the AI but I’m nowhere near good enough to try using it competitively. Even against the AI, it can be tricky to get it to do what you want. It’s still fun just to see what random attack he uses but I totally understand the complaints. As a Ganondorf main, I’m totally used to characters having a few attacks you probably don’t want to rely on competitively, namely his Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick, so not using Hero’s down special often doesn’t really bother me.

 

[DarthEnderX]

As for Hero, I think the only real issue is with his down special.

I think managing MP also sucks and overcomplicates him.

It's one thing to have a meter that gives you access to stronger abilities, like how Cloud's Limit Break works. It's another thing to have, like, basic fundamental abilities be fueled by a meter.

The fact that you can just...lose the ability to recover upwards entirely because you're out of MP is dumb.


But yes, the Down Special is also terrible. Firstly because of the randomness, and secondly because navigating a menu in a fighting game is an incredibly stupid idea. A perfect example of when putting the source material first goes wrong.

 

[Gengar84]

I think managing MP also sucks and overcomplicates him.

It's one thing to have a meter that gives you access to stronger abilities, like how Cloud's Limit Break works. It's another thing to have, like, basic fundamental abilities be fueled by a meter.

The fact that you can just...lose the ability to recover upwards entirely because you're out of MP is dumb.


But yes, the Down Special is also terrible. Firstly because of the randomness, and secondly because navigating a menu in a fighting game is an incredibly stupid idea. A perfect example of when putting the source material first goes wrong.

I don’t have a problem with the MP system as a whole but I do agree with you that a character’s recovery probably shouldn’t be tied to it. I think a good solution is to keep the upward mobility even without MP but the tornado attack part of it would still be dependent on MP.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don’t have a problem with the MP system as a whole but I do agree with you that a character’s recovery probably shouldn’t be tied to it. I think a good solution is to keep the upward mobility even without MP but the tornado attack part of it would still be dependent on MP.

I think the way to do it is make it so using the base version of each move(Frizz/Zap/Woosh) costs 0MP, but the upgraded versions(Frizzle/Kafrizz/Zapple/Kazap/Swoosh/Kaswoosh) still cost MP.

 

[Gengar84]

I think the way to do it is make it so using the base version of each move(Frizz/Zap/Woosh) costs 0MP, but the upgraded versions(Frizzle/Kafrizz/Zapple/Kazap/Swoosh/Kaswoosh) still cost MP.

Yeah, that’s a good idea too, I’d support a change like that. Do you think they should do the same for Robin’s spells and still let them use a weaker version of the attack even after the tome is used up?

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah, that’s a good idea too, I’d support a change like that. Do you think they should do the same for Robin’s spells and still let them use a weaker version of the attack even after the tome is used up?

For Robin, I'd prefer if they just do away with weapon durability entirely. Balance it out by lowering the power of tomes and the Levin Sword.

I'm not against the idea of resource management as part of a moveset but I don't think it should affect the entire base moveset. Tie it to one special maybe, or to a mechanic that involves enhancing or granting access to additional abilities.

Going back to Hero for example, I think it'd be better if it were just tied to Down Special so he doesn't lose access to his other moves. The menu navigation would still be an issue but at least his others moves could be used more freely.

 

[Quillion]

I could understand the case for the others even if I highly disagree, but in what world is Ryu's moveset bloated and overcomplicated? He's incredibly straightforward, with the only thing even slightly complex being how he has light and heavy move variants. That's...not complicated.

I still don't think Ryu needed light and heavy moves nor command inputs.

Yes, the tap/hold variants are not complicated, and at least the command inputs are partial circle motions, which are the only command inputs that work on a console controller.

But the fact they put this gimmick onto him and Ken in the first place for the sake of "faithful" doesn't sit right because it goes against what 64-Brawl went for. I want to play Smash for new characters that are straightforward and intuitive, and I don't want to have to do extra BS to get the most out of them.

 

[Kirbeh]

I still don't think Ryu needed light and heavy moves nor command inputs.

Yes, the tap/hold variants are not complicated, and at least the command inputs are partial circle motions, which are the only command inputs that work on a console controller.

But the fact they put this gimmick onto him and Ken in the first place for the sake of "faithful" doesn't sit right because it goes against what 64-Brawl went for. I want to play Smash for new characters that are straightforward and intuitive, and I don't want to have to do extra BS to get the most out of them.

While I'm also in the camp of preferring that they'd just pick one move for each tilt, I'm not against having more moves. I'm a fan of motion inputs as well so long as their not crazy SNK supers. The two we got for Terry are OK for example, others probably not so much.

I still think you could take the two inputs for angling f-tilt and put some of the moves there. Though I'm also in favor of mapping Smash attacks to their own button which depending on who you ask is also taking away from Smash's simplicity.

 

[UserKev]

Can we please have a Official Newcomer Speculation sub forum for Next Smash opened? I feel like newcomer support should be discussed and built long before any official announcement since it'd essentially boost awareness to sleeper picks.

 

[Louie G.]

But the fact they put this gimmick onto him and Ken in the first place for the sake of "faithful" doesn't sit right because it goes against what 64-Brawl went for. I want to play Smash for new characters that are straightforward and intuitive, and I don't want to have to do extra BS to get the most out of them.

I feel like criticism toward being overly faithful is valid, I've felt that way plenty of times. I was even of the belief we were getting a little too gimmicky circa Smash 4 to be honest, which I've cooled off on since but the fact that I was fatigued that far back means I'm at least empathetic toward the feeling.

Although I feel like I've been seeing a growing sentiment to a different extreme - not to a huge extent yet, but a weirdly persistent stance that isn't concerned about character accuracy period. Let's just set the record straight, it's perfectly okay and normal for some characters to have "extra BS". All of the top shelf fighting games still have characters with higher skill ceilings and character specific mechanics. That's why we have Mario, Kirby, Donkey Kong... and then Ryu, Ice Climbers and Olimar. This isn't even an especially new phenomenon to Smash, even if it's more present now because of DLC.

We still received largely straightforward and intuitive characters in Ultimate - K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, Byleth, Piranha Plant, Incineroar, Sephiroth, Pyra / Mythra. I think I remember Sakurai saying he designed Sora to be easy to use? You have a handful of attacks with quirks or passive gimmicks - shoutouts to K. Rool's belly armor, I feel like people don't acknowledge that one enough - but all in all these characters are functioning the way you expect a Smash character would. Among these characters I think there's room for a mechanically complex character like Terry. We don't need every character to be accessible in the exact same way, although you're more than welcome to have your preferences of course. I also tend to opt for simple characters.

 

[Quillion]

All of the top shelf fighting games still have characters with higher skill ceilings and character specific mechanics. That's why we have Mario, Kirby, Donkey Kong... and then Ryu, Ice Climbers and Olimar. This isn't even an especially new phenomenon to Smash, even if it's more present now because of DLC.

Thing is, good "higher skill ceiling" characters translate to characters that play within the "established rules" but allow the player to use those moves in unorthodox ways, not rely on gimmicks to give themselves an edge over others. The latter is just a poor method of balance since it relies on difficulty of execution rather than assuming all characters are being played at the highest level.

I know a lot of people will accuse me of wanting homogeneity in the characters, but there's a wide spectrum between "characters who are essentially skins" and "characters so different in design that the core gameplay struggles to support them all". There is a reason why I don't want Sheik and Greninja on the same roster, as even though they play differently to an extent, we don't need two light speedy ninjas on the roster, so I'm also against homogeneity to an extent. There's definitely a balance to be had.

 

[Louie G.]

Thing is, good "higher skill ceiling" characters translate to characters that play within the "established rules" but allow the player to use those moves in unorthodox ways, not rely on gimmicks to give themselves an edge over others. The latter is just a poor method of balance since it relies on difficulty of execution rather than assuming all characters are being played at the highest level.

Just so I can better understand where you're coming from, what are some of the characters in Smash that you consider "good" high skill ceiling designs? First ones that come to mind for me are Peach and Pac-Man.

I agree that tacking on a bunch of superfluous things that make a character harder isn't inherently good design, but I personally don't think Ryu or Terry feel like they suffer from this. Maybe someone like Steve or Kazuya, though. Or Robin as previously mentioned, since limiting his resources doesn't feel justified without stronger assets. He just feels like he's at a disadvantage most other characters don't need to worry about.

 

[Quillion]

Just so I can better understand where you're coming from, what are some of the characters in Smash that you consider "good" high skill ceiling designs? First ones that come to mind for me are Peach and Pac-Man.

I agree that tacking on a bunch of superfluous things that make a character harder isn't inherently good design, but I personally don't think Ryu or Terry feel like they suffer from this. Maybe someone like Steve or Kazuya, though. Or Robin as previously mentioned, since limiting his resources doesn't feel justified without stronger assets. He just feels like he's at a disadvantage most other characters don't need to worry about.

Fox and Peach definitely, and that's in both Melee and current Smash.

And I'd like to note that Mac's "not an air fighter" disadvantage feels very gimmicky too, it's just a gimmick that "plays by the rules" instead of adding mechanics on top.

All that said, the "gimmicks" are part of the reason why I'd like to see a lot of them be consolidated into a single "super meter" mechanic that's available to all characters. Part of my problem with some of the gimmicks is that they seem like cool things that other characters should have access to. Heck, even with the jump-out-of-shine "technique" in Melee, I'd love to see that expanded to have a "one-button wavedash" mechanic that can cancel jabs and tilts plus the ability to jump cancel up-tilts for better followups.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, I can definitely see the problem with giving someone a unique gimmick that’s just a drawback like Robin where their specials don’t really feel powerful enough to make up for it. Same goes for the fatigue mechanic in Brawl’s Pokémon Trainer. If you’re going to add some kind of mechanical gimmick, I’d prefer something that makes the character more fun to use rather than limits them. Gimmicks are totally fine in my book as long as they aren’t overly complicated or the character can still function and be fun to pick up and play for beginners if they don’t use them.

 

[Kirbeh]

These are the characters who I agree on being the ones that have gimmicks and drawbacks that are either cumbersome, unbalanced or make them less fun to fun to play.

- Ditch the ink resource and adjust the power of moves accordingly. You lose nothing other than having to run away every so often to sit in one spot to recharge.

- Remove durability and adjust the power of moves accordingly. You lose access to throwable tomes and swords, but I don't think that's a deal breaker in exchange for equipment that doesn't break.

- Remove MP and change Down Special into something else. If the multiple spell thing must absolutely be kept, then keep the MP cost for just this move and make it a Judge style roulette or a set order like Sora's.

This is moving outside the individual character changes, but preferably I'd add a super meter and turn some of the Command Selection moves into supers. Then as a purely aesthetic feature, Hero's super meter would be labeled as an MP bar.

- Improve his air game and lower his power. Still better on the ground than in the air just less extreme.

- Improve mobility a little and scale back his power.

- Retool her with some long-range moves inspired by ARMS rather than the literal translation of ARMS' gameplay taking up half of her moves.

- I can't say much on because I have very little experience with Minecraft. Aside from the idea of making him more balanced, I don't know what to specifically change to accomplish that while still pleasing Minecraft fans. Like, I know that there bows among other weapons, and potions and other stuff, but I don't know what to best fit into his kit depending on what's being changed.

Only other thing I'll throw out is to maybe give his blocks grabbable ledges so he can't gimp people as easily. If he can make more stage to fight on, let's treat it like an actual extension of the stage.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

These are the characters who I agree on being the ones that have gimmicks and drawbacks that are either cumbersome, unbalanced or make them less fun to fun to play.

- Ditch the ink resource and adjust the power of moves accordingly. You lose nothing other than having to run away every so often to sit in one spot to recharge.

- Remove durability and adjust the power of moves accordingly. You lose access to throwable tomes and swords, but I don't think that's a deal breaker in exchange for equipment that doesn't break.

- Remove MP and change Down Special into something else. If the multiple spell thing must absolutely be kept, then keep the MP cost for just this move and make it a Judge style roulette or a set order like Sora's.

This is moving outside the individual character changes, but preferably I'd add a super meter and turn some of the Command Selection moves into supers. Then as a purely aesthetic feature, Hero's super meter would be labeled as an MP bar.

- Improve his air game and lower his power. Still better on the ground than in the air just less extreme.

- Improve mobility a little and scale back his power.

- Retool her with some long-range moves inspired by ARMS rather than the literal translation of ARMS' gameplay taking up half of her moves.

- I can't say much on because I have very little experience with Minecraft. Aside from the idea of making him more balanced, I don't know what to specifically change to accomplish that while still pleasing Minecraft fans. Like, I know that there bows among other weapons, and potions and other stuff, but I don't know what to best fit into his kit depending on what's being changed.

Only other thing I'll throw out is to maybe give his blocks grabbable ledges so he can't gimp people as easily. If he can make more stage to fight on, let's treat it like an actual extension of the stage.

What do you hate fun or something?

I’m joking, of course, but I will say that pretty much everything you pointed out would ruin the characters for me. Throwable times for Robin is most Robin Mains’s bread and butter, removing Hero’s down special would make the character actually boring to me, Kazuya’s movement is so Tekken and wavedashing across the battlefield is fun as hell, Min Min’s transition from ARMS is what what makes her special imo; the one two punches from Min Min are fun to both utilize and find a way around, Little Mac… yeah you’re right, and the Ink… yeah also fair.

I dunno, I don’t feel like removing these characters unique attributes really contributes to them being more fun just more “optimal” which if competitive Melee is any indication, optimal isn’t always more fun.

 

[Sucumbio]

Can we please have a Official Newcomer Speculation sub forum for Next Smash opened? I feel like newcomer support should be discussed and built long before any official announcement since it'd essentially boost awareness to sleeper picks.

I don't mind bringing it up to staff after the holidays. I think it's time to at least discuss it.

 

[Kirbeh]

What do you hate fun or something?

I’m joking, of course, but I will say that pretty much everything you pointed out would ruin the characters for me. Throwable times for Robin is most Robin Mains’s bread and butter, removing Hero’s down special would make the character actually boring to me, Kazuya’s movement is so Tekken and wavedashing across the battlefield is fun as hell, Min Min’s transition from ARMS is what what makes her special imo; the one two punches from Min Min are fun to both utilize and find a way around, Little Mac… yeah you’re right, and the Ink… yeah also fair.

I dunno, I don’t feel like removing these characters unique attributes really contributes to them being more fun just more “optimal” which if competitive Melee is any indication, optimal isn’t always more fun.

I mean at the end of the day; it is all subjective. My suggestions would only please a minority, I do get that. Most of Smash's audience are here for a multiplayer fighting/party game and even a good chunk of competitive player base enjoys some of the randomness and jank.

To address Kazuya specifically though, I'm not suggesting a huge adjustment to his movement, hence why I said only a little. He should be slow and kind of stiff, but increasing his run and air speed ever so slightly is meant to balance out lowering his raw power. Kazuya should absolutely feel like a powerhouse, but I do feel he's too strong as things currently stand. I do want to avoid over tuning characters, but Kazuya has so much to him, I honestly don't know where to start, hence why I only made the suggestion for a minor adjustment. To make my stance on him clear, i don't want to get rid of his dashes or get rid of his extra moves/motion inputs.

I do wholly disagree with MinMin however. I find her incredibly boring to play, nor do I like the fact the forward punch takes up half of her move pool.

I also admit that Hero's change is pretty much just to make him more consistent/"fair." I have fun doing silly top deck dittos and other shenanigans, but I also don't like insta kill moves or useless/otherwise extremely context specific moves like Metal Slash or Kaclang. Otherewise I do actually really like the other spells in his repertoire.

If I could meet you halfway on this one though, would you be opposed to a revision to the way the move functions depending on the setting? We already have damage scaling based on the number of players and we've got toggles for a whole bunch of other stuff. Do you think a "tourney mode" toggle would be an acceptable compromise? It's off by default, but when turned on it removes things like Metal Slash/Thwack and the 9 from Judge. More options never hurt. That way both sides can play to their preference.

I'm not a Robin main, in fact I don't find them to be very fun to play at all, so if it really is that much of a dealbreaker for Robin players, then I think it should stay. At the very least, I would say at least give them access to an alternative Up Special when out of Eldwin casts, just so they aren't completely helpless.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I hope they never change Hero.

He's just too funny.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

- Remove MP and change Down Special into something else. If the multiple spell thing must absolutely be kept, then keep the MP cost for just this move and make it a Judge style roulette or a set order like Sora's.

They would almost certainly remove it if they made this change, but now I can't help but imagine someone using Down Special and the game randomly selecting Kamikazee and then nobody ever using the move again because there's a 1 in however many chance that you just suddenly take yourself out lol

 

[Will]

Hero is perfectly balanced. If you can’t handle the RNG, don’t play against the dealer. Just like real life casinos.

t. Hero main

 

[Kirbeh]

They would almost certainly remove it if they made this change, but now I can't help but imagine someone using Down Special and the game randomly selecting Kamikazee and then nobody ever using the move again because there's a 1 in however many chance that you just suddenly take yourself out lol

Well, the idea in this scenario would remove Kamikaze to avoid random self-destructs. Thwack/Whack would at least be retained since 9 also exists.

Hero is perfectly balanced. If you can’t handle the RNG, don’t play against the dealer. Just like real life casinos.

t. Hero main

Command is fun, I get that. But you have to remember that players don't get to choose their opponents. If you get matched up with Hero during ranked (or any mode really) and he top decks Thwack at some point and it kills, nothing you can really do about that, you're just suddenly down a stock.

In casual play I don't think it's a problem, but for ranked matches and actual tourneys, I don't think insta kills are great to have around. I mean sure, there's a chance he never gets it off unlike how G&W can actually combo into 9, but the fact that the chance of cheesing a stock just like that exists is inherently less fair. If Command Selection is retained as is, I do still think a toggle for such things would be a good compromise.

It doesn't affect the players who like things as they are and makes for a better competitive setting for those who opt to use it.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm glad everyone at least agrees about - who was and forever will be in spirit the character I wanted in Smash the most. I understand and can even appreciate that Smash is accentuating Punch-Out's tactic of giving its boxers glaring weaknesses. I just don't this works the way it's supposed to, when Little Mac is given uncharacteristic strength and armor to compensate. Mac is currently a very dumb character, you can carelessly throw out punches and you only have to worry about getting back to the stage... which you probably won't, because he is one of a few characters deliberately defined by his WEAKNESS which was advertised right alongside his reveal. But Punch-Out, which may I remind you is sort of a puzzle strategy game, requires you to play way more intuitively. Everybody in the world knows how to fight Little Mac and they all fight him the exact same way. So yeah if you want that whole super powerful until you discover their weakness Punch-Out essence, I get it, but Punch-Out fights are fun and this one is usually not for either party.

I think Little Mac simply being your "boxer" archetype, akin to Balrog or Dudley, is more than enough to let him stand out already. Certainly some sort of Star Punch mechanic would be appreciated, but I think he's a clear case of overcompensating. We don't have a lot of really traditional styled fighters in Smash to begin with so Little Mac, at least in my opinion, is a very valuable dynamic to have in this roster by default. And of course he doesn't need to be great in the air either, he just needs to be normal bad. He can still have poor air speed and a below average recovery with moves that actually work.

Although I think the lamest "gimmicky" approach in Smash 4, toward another one of my most wanted characters, was . This is kind of moot these days, but Palutena's emphasis on custom moves felt tacked on for the sake of giving her something to stand out among a cast that was otherwise pretty quirky. Some of those customs were really cool which makes it unfortunate that her default specials were pretty damn boring if, like most people, you weren't playing with custom moves very often. For the life of me with how imaginative they got with everything else, I am baffled at the way she had a normal ass Counter and they decided to put it on her default kit. At least now it's paired with Reflector I suppose, which fits her way better. But I feel like this whole custom deal was such an out of nowhere thing to give Palutena specifically, and almost felt more like indecision on what to give her at all.

But same as Little Mac and boxers, we didn't really have a staff user on the roster until Palutena and her moveset is already plenty unique by that metric. Would have maybe given her Heavenly Light as a default special to lean harder into that celestial goddess part though. I appreciate these characters who get to adopt underutilized archetypes though, sometimes that's more than enough. Just look at Incineroar, one of the most fun characters in Ultimate, existing almost exclusively because Sakurai wanted to add a traditional grappler.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But the fact they put this gimmick onto him and Ken in the first place for the sake of "faithful" doesn't sit right because it goes against what 64-Brawl went for. I want to play Smash for new characters that are straightforward and intuitive, and I don't want to have to do extra BS to get the most out of them.

They're still fully functional Smash characters even if you can't do inputs.