Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SharkLord]

Ok, but if we gave him a few things from Sonic Chronicles?

At that point, he'd be a McJRPG but not a swordie, as I'm pretty sure Sonic never picked up any weapons in Sonic Chronicles.

I think.

I dunno what was going on in that game honestly

As for custom moves, that's kind of my point. Outside of Palutena, the Miis, and to an extent Mega Man, custom moves were not unique moves or intended to be such. Making unique custom specials for every character on the roster is far more extra work than is feasible if Smash continues to be as large as it is, (even with a net loss in roster size after some cuts/newcomers.)

It's much simpler/more cost effective for a handful of characters to continue having clones/echoes or perhaps variants selected from the same slot MKX style.

Honestly? Having multiple "variants" sounds pretty cool. Emphasize that they're still moveset clones, and make more than seven Echoes. Make it clear they're just a fun little twist on an established moveset, and not roster filler. Doesn't even have to be a character, either; Something like, I dunno, Ice Mario, or Dry Bowser. You could periodically have little batches of DLC holding like three or five variants as a way to add extra costumes too.

Spoiler

Fire Emblem would probably benefit from that since the casts are based on archetypes and you could probably use a select few fighters as a default for those archetypes, but I fear what would come out of bringing that up

 

[fogbadge]

Personally I rather liked sonic chronicles

 

[Kirbeh]

At that point, he'd be a McJRPG but not a swordie, as I'm pretty sure Sonic never picked up any weapons in Sonic Chronicles.

I think.

I dunno what was going on in that game honestly



Honestly? Having multiple "variants" sounds pretty cool. Emphasize that they're still moveset clones, and make more than seven Echoes. Make it clear they're just a fun little twist on an established moveset, and not roster filler. Doesn't even have to be a character, either; Something like, I dunno, Ice Mario, or Dry Bowser. You could periodically have little batches of DLC holding like three or five variants as a way to add extra costumes too.

Spoiler

Fire Emblem would probably benefit from that since the casts are based on archetypes and you could probably use a select few fighters as a default for those archetypes, but I fear what would come out of bringing that up

Honestly, I don't really care about upsetting people who whine about supposed roster filler. Even if it's explained in detail they still won't care. It's a miracle people took to Echoes as well as they did.

Using your Ice Mario as example though, that could easily work as good spin on Mario's kit. Give him Iceballs and ice effects in place of fire on moves like F-Smash (hitting your opponent with enough of these would freeze them). I'd go as far as giving him some stuff from Mario Galaxy's version of the ice flower too. Maybe replacing side or down special with a move that lays down frost tiles on the ground. He could skate across it for faster movement while opponents would have to deal with the ice physics or try jumping over.

I'd definitely take more characters as alts where it works. For FE, it's probably not really feasible for the current cast, but if they ever added a more prominent/popular non-lord character like Caeda for example, I think it'd be perfectly fine to have her rep the pegasus knight class as a whole and add others from throughout the series as alts. In her case; you could do Palla, Catria, and Est (trio from the same game), Sumia and Cordelia (Awakening), etc.

And of course more actual costumes in general would be nice too. Don't know why they never delved into DLC costumes for the cast proper.

 

[Gengar84]

Please delete. Posted in error.

 

[Gengar84]

At that point, he'd be a McJRPG but not a swordie, as I'm pretty sure Sonic never picked up any weapons in Sonic Chronicles.

I think.

I dunno what was going on in that game honestly

Honestly? Having multiple "variants" sounds pretty cool. Emphasize that they're still moveset clones, and make more than seven Echoes. Make it clear they're just a fun little twist on an established moveset, and not roster filler. Doesn't even have to be a character, either; Something like, I dunno, Ice Mario, or Dry Bowser. You could periodically have little batches of DLC holding like three or five variants as a way to add extra costumes too.

Spoiler

Fire Emblem would probably benefit from that since the casts are based on archetypes and you could probably use a select few fighters as a default for those archetypes, but I fear what would come out of bringing that up

That would have been my preferred approach for Fire Emblem had they had gone with that from the start but it’s probably a bit late at this point without a huge overhaul. Since most characters in the Fire Emblem games play the same as everyone else in their class, it makes sense to me to do a Hero situation for every major class with alts for specific characters. The alts could still show off their unique personalities through voice and taunts. That idea doesn’t really work for everyone like some of the modern more unique lords like Corrin and Byleth but it should for the large majority of characters.

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly, I don't really care about upsetting people who whine about supposed roster filler. Even if it's explained in detail they still won't care. It's a miracle people took to Echoes as well as they did.

Using your Ice Mario as example though, that could easily work as good spin on Mario's kit. Give him Iceballs and ice effects in place of fire on moves like F-Smash (hitting your opponent with enough of these would freeze them). I'd go as far as giving him some stuff from Mario Galaxy's version of the ice flower too. Maybe replacing side or down special with a move that lays down frost tiles on the ground. He could skate across it for faster movement while opponents would have to deal with the ice physics or try jumping over.

I'd definitely take more characters as alts where it works. For FE, it's probably not really feasible for the current cast, but if they ever added a more prominent/popular non-lord character like Caeda for example, I think it'd be perfectly fine to have her rep the pegasus knight class as a whole and add others from throughout the series as alts. In her case; you could do Palla, Catria, and Est (trio from the same game), Sumia and Cordelia (Awakening), etc.

And of course more actual costumes in general would be nice too. Don't know why they never delved into DLC costumes for the cast proper.

I don't want to stretch too hard in regards to squeezing characters into an alt role, so I like the idea of variants a bit better. Perhaps it brings up a little sub-menu of variants when you select the main fight on the UI, and then you can choose the variant's alts after you choose them.

In regards to Fire Emblem, the major archetypes that I think would be reasonable would be:

• Lord/Sword - Y'know, the Marth. Has a reasonably-sized sword. We're already familiar with these guys
• Myrmidon - Really fast swordfighters who usually have a katana, like Lyn. Probably has some quickdraw mechanics. Truth be told it's wierd that Sephiroth is the only katana fighter we have because katanas are pretty popular.
• Heavy Sword - More aggressive swordfighters like Ike. I suppose we could work in Chrom or Smash Roy (FE Roy is closer to Marth) as a variant with a smaller but faster sword
  • Axe - Someone like Edelgard or Hector. They could be merged into the Heavy Sword category since they're both about big heavy weapons, but it might be a bit of a stretch
• Cavalier - Horseback riders; Sigurd's the main "horse lord," but it could probably include supporting characters like Frederick too. I'd imagine they'd lean more towards lances, though I suppose you could make a sword work over some of the movements
  • Pegasus Knights - Also ride a horse and also default to lances, but their horses fly. I suppose you could work out a unique moveset, but it would work just as well to put them over a Cavalier and add some extra aerial moves and mobility
  • Soldier - Lance-using infantry. The little stabby guy. This I'm kinda iffy on, because lances are the usual mook's weapon, but I'm not sure how many Soldier-type characters you could use. The most Soldier-like main character would be Ephraim; Timerra's basically a Soldier, and I guess pre-timeskip Dmitri could be squeezed in there, but I think he's better known for being a barbarian with what's basically a glaive, and that wouldn't fit very well. or we could just have a generic soldier mook wondering how the hell he got here
• Magic User - In FE, the magic users are usually split between elemental Mages, Dark Mages, and Priests, but the former two could easily be merged together and the latter is geared more towards a support role; A full healer would be best as an Assist Trophy, and more offensive white magic would just be a spellcaster anyways. Micaiah's the purest magic lord, but there's a good few popular regular name units that could work too, like Lysithia and Nino. Celica and Robin are an odd case, because they use both swords and magic, and that might make things tricky unless we heavily downplay the swords
• Manakete - Y'know, the little girl who becomes a big dragon. Tiki's a no-brainer because she's shown up in multiple games. Corrin is a Manakete, but they seem to use the sword more often, and most spinoff appearances tend to manifest the shapeshifting as drill/jaw-hands that are completely different from the usual Manakete fare.

There's also Archers and Beast Units, but it feels like there aren't many popular Archers beyond Claude, and and Beast Units are a recent archetype who seem to change what species is used every game - Tellius has cats and birds, Awakening has rabbits, and Fates uses canines - So I don't think they're very Echo-able.

Might cut out a couple archetypes if it's a smaller roster, but yeah. That's about how I'd try to manage the FE representation.

That would have been my preferred approach for Fire Emblem had they had gone with that from the start but it’s probably a bit late at this point without a huge overhaul. Since most characters in the Fire Emblem games play the same as everyone else in their class, it makes sense to me to do a Hero situation for every major class with alts for specific characters. The alts could still show off their unique personalities through voice and taunts. That idea doesn’t really work for everyone like some of the modern more unique lords like Corrin and Byleth but it should for the large majority of characters.

Yeah, I'm viewing this through the lens of a soft reboot. Honestly, half the reason Fire Emblem got so many swordfighter is just because it has a rotating cast and probably would've rotated through the characters anyways; If Ultimate hadn't been an EVERYONE IS HERE situation, I'd imagine they'd have dropped Corrin and either/both Lucina and Roy, which would bring the lineup down to just Marth, Ike, Robin, maybe an Echo, and then Byleth later down the line, at only 3-5 fighters. Personally I think the hangups over the swordfighters is a bit overblown, but still, I feel like rewinding and covering more archetypes and weapon classes would be better representation for the series.

 

[Gengar84]

I don't want to stretch too hard in regards to squeezing characters into an alt role, so I like the idea of variants a bit better. Perhaps it brings up a little sub-menu of variants when you select the main fight on the UI, and then you can choose the variant's alts after you choose them.

In regards to Fire Emblem, the major archetypes that I think would be reasonable would be:

• Lord/Sword - Y'know, the Marth. Has a reasonably-sized sword. We're already familiar with these guys
• Myrmidon - Really fast swordfighters who usually have a katana, like Lyn. Probably has some quickdraw mechanics. Truth be told it's wierd that Sephiroth is the only katana fighter we have because katanas are pretty popular.
• Heavy Sword - More aggressive swordfighters like Ike. I suppose we could work in Chrom or Smash Roy (FE Roy is closer to Marth) as a variant with a smaller but faster sword
  • Axe - Someone like Edelgard or Hector. They could be merged into the Heavy Sword category since they're both about big heavy weapons, but it might be a bit of a stretch
• Cavalier - Horseback riders; Sigurd's the main "horse lord," but it could probably include supporting characters like Frederick too. I'd imagine they'd lean more towards lances, though I suppose you could make a sword work over some of the movements
  • Pegasus Knights - Also ride a horse and also default to lances, but their horses fly. I suppose you could work out a unique moveset, but it would work just as well to put them over a Cavalier and add some extra aerial moves and mobility
  • Soldier - Lance-using infantry. The little stabby guy. This I'm kinda iffy on, because lances are the usual mook's weapon, but I'm not sure how many Soldier-type characters you could use. The most Soldier-like main character would be Ephraim; Timerra's basically a Soldier, and I guess pre-timeskip Dmitri could be squeezed in there, but I think he's better known for being a barbarian with what's basically a glaive, and that wouldn't fit very well. or we could just have a generic soldier mook wondering how the hell he got here
• Magic User - In FE, the magic users are usually split between elemental Mages, Dark Mages, and Priests, but the former two could easily be merged together and the latter is geared more towards a support role; A full healer would be best as an Assist Trophy, and more offensive white magic would just be a spellcaster anyways. Micaiah's the purest magic lord, but there's a good few popular regular name units that could work too, like Lysithia and Nino. Celica and Robin are an odd case, because they use both swords and magic, and that might make things tricky unless we heavily downplay the swords
• Manakete - Y'know, the little girl who becomes a big dragon. Tiki's a no-brainer because she's shown up in multiple games. Corrin is a Manakete, but they seem to use the sword more often, and most spinoff appearances tend to manifest the shapeshifting as drill/jaw-hands that are completely different from the usual Manakete fare.

There's also Archers and Beast Units, but it feels like there aren't many popular Archers beyond Claude, and and Beast Units are a recent archetype who seem to change what species is used every game - Tellius has cats and birds, Awakening has rabbits, and Fates uses canines - So I don't think they're very Echo-able.

Might cut out a couple archetypes if it's a smaller roster, but yeah. That's about how I'd try to manage the FE representation.

That makes a lot of sense but I feel like we’d be missing out a bit if we didn’t have a spear and axe wielding class just to complete the triangle. I feel like the axe class could probably just use the heavy sword class’ moves and share a slot. The spear wielder would need a new moveset. As for archers, I’m personally a big fan of Shamir and Bernadetta from Three Houses and Shinon from Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn.

 

[SharkLord]

That makes a lot of sense but I feel like we’d be missing out a bit if we didn’t have a spear and axe wielding class just to complete the triangle. I feel like the axe class could probably just use the heavy sword class’ moves and share a slot. The spear wielder would need a new moveset. As for archers, I’m personally a big fan of Shamir and Bernadetta from Three Houses and Shinon from Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn.

Yeah, that's why I suggested the Axe Fighters, Pegasus Knights, and Soldiers in the little sub-points; I'd prioritise axe users for the heavy slot and lance users for the Cavalry slot, assuming I don't have an infantry unit for the lance user instead. Of course, there's also popularity to take into account; Ike is super popular and at this point it would come off as a genuine surprise if he was cut, so you could make a good argument for him as the default Heavy Weapon fighter. That said, Three Houses was also a really big release and Edelgard is pretty damn popular too, on top of being a prominent character in all routes, so she'd work fine as the default too.

That said, having the two share a moveset might be a bit awkward, since Edelgard would probably be more elegant and refined than just "Big axe smack." It could work if it's a more generalized moveset and the variants are given more distinct animations, but still.

 

[Sucumbio]

... it feels like there aren't many popular Archers beyond Claude,

This is Shinon erasure and I protest!

 

[SPEN18]

I see we are trying to wreck the FE roster again.

FE characters are not nearly as similar as the haters would have you believe.

I think we should stop with this "all FE characters are really Echoes of each other" thing. A series can utilize archetypes without that making every character the same character.

It was already touched upon a bit, but the FE characters currently in Smash can't really be cloned much more than they already have been. Yes, even Marth.

 

[Perkilator]

I don't want to stretch too hard in regards to squeezing characters into an alt role, so I like the idea of variants a bit better. Perhaps it brings up a little sub-menu of variants when you select the main fight on the UI, and then you can choose the variant's alts after you choose them.

In regards to Fire Emblem, the major archetypes that I think would be reasonable would be:

• Lord/Sword - Y'know, the Marth. Has a reasonably-sized sword. We're already familiar with these guys
• Myrmidon - Really fast swordfighters who usually have a katana, like Lyn. Probably has some quickdraw mechanics. Truth be told it's wierd that Sephiroth is the only katana fighter we have because katanas are pretty popular.
• Heavy Sword - More aggressive swordfighters like Ike. I suppose we could work in Chrom or Smash Roy (FE Roy is closer to Marth) as a variant with a smaller but faster sword
  • Axe - Someone like Edelgard or Hector. They could be merged into the Heavy Sword category since they're both about big heavy weapons, but it might be a bit of a stretch
• Cavalier - Horseback riders; Sigurd's the main "horse lord," but it could probably include supporting characters like Frederick too. I'd imagine they'd lean more towards lances, though I suppose you could make a sword work over some of the movements
  • Pegasus Knights - Also ride a horse and also default to lances, but their horses fly. I suppose you could work out a unique moveset, but it would work just as well to put them over a Cavalier and add some extra aerial moves and mobility
  • Soldier - Lance-using infantry. The little stabby guy. This I'm kinda iffy on, because lances are the usual mook's weapon, but I'm not sure how many Soldier-type characters you could use. The most Soldier-like main character would be Ephraim; Timerra's basically a Soldier, and I guess pre-timeskip Dmitri could be squeezed in there, but I think he's better known for being a barbarian with what's basically a glaive, and that wouldn't fit very well. or we could just have a generic soldier mook wondering how the hell he got here
• Magic User - In FE, the magic users are usually split between elemental Mages, Dark Mages, and Priests, but the former two could easily be merged together and the latter is geared more towards a support role; A full healer would be best as an Assist Trophy, and more offensive white magic would just be a spellcaster anyways. Micaiah's the purest magic lord, but there's a good few popular regular name units that could work too, like Lysithia and Nino. Celica and Robin are an odd case, because they use both swords and magic, and that might make things tricky unless we heavily downplay the swords
• Manakete - Y'know, the little girl who becomes a big dragon. Tiki's a no-brainer because she's shown up in multiple games. Corrin is a Manakete, but they seem to use the sword more often, and most spinoff appearances tend to manifest the shapeshifting as drill/jaw-hands that are completely different from the usual Manakete fare.

There's also Archers and Beast Units, but it feels like there aren't many popular Archers beyond Claude, and and Beast Units are a recent archetype who seem to change what species is used every game - Tellius has cats and birds, Awakening has rabbits, and Fates uses canines - So I don't think they're very Echo-able.

Might cut out a couple archetypes if it's a smaller roster, but yeah. That's about how I'd try to manage the FE representation.


Yeah, I'm viewing this through the lens of a soft reboot. Honestly, half the reason Fire Emblem got so many swordfighter is just because it has a rotating cast and probably would've rotated through the characters anyways; If Ultimate hadn't been an EVERYONE IS HERE situation, I'd imagine they'd have dropped Corrin and either/both Lucina and Roy, which would bring the lineup down to just Marth, Ike, Robin, maybe an Echo, and then Byleth later down the line, at only 3-5 fighters. Personally I think the hangups over the swordfighters is a bit overblown, but still, I feel like rewinding and covering more archetypes and weapon classes would be better representation for the series.

Funnily enough, I had my own ideal representation of Fire Emblem in Smash that some of these archetypes fit into.

• Marth (Lord / Sword)
• Lyn (Myrmidon)
• Ike (Heavy Sword)
• Robin (Magician)
• Azura (Dancer)
• Byleth (Weapon Triangle)

 

[Gengar84]

I see we are trying to wreck the FE roster again.

FE characters are not nearly as similar as the haters would have you believe.

I think we should stop with this "all FE characters are really Echoes of each other" thing. A series can utilize archetypes without that making every character the same character.

It was already touched upon a bit, but the FE characters currently in Smash can't really be cloned much more than they already have been. Yes, even Marth.

I don’t know why you assume everyone making that suggestion are haters. I absolutely loved Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn and I also really enjoyed Awakening and Three Houses. Fates had some issues but I had a lot of fun with the actual gameplay in the battles. I also bought and enjoyed both Fire Emblem Warriors and Three Hopes.

I make that suggestion because I really like a lot of characters that wouldn’t otherwise have any chance to make it in Smash. A lot of echoes currently in Smash aren’t 100% accurate to their source material either and had to make some concessions to fit their source character’s moveset. Just look at Dark Samus for current characters or the fact that so many people would be happy to see a Dixie or Impa echo.

I like this idea because it greatly expands the amount of characters that could be represented. The main reason I like particular Fire Emblem characters is their personalities and design, all which could easily be portrayed through an alt. A character’s moveset is pretty far down on why I like them for Fire Emblem, which is why I’m more than happy to sacrifice a bit of originality in that department in order to see several of my favorites make it in. The fact that the classes play roughly similar means they can still feel very faithful to their source even as alts.

 

[Ivander]

There's also Archers and Beast Units, but it feels like there aren't many popular Archers beyond Claude

Takumi. Despite some of the memes, Takumi is quite popular among the Fates characters, reaching 3rd among the Male cast in Fates and he used to rank notably high in the Top 10 Males for CYL twice before going to 11th on the 3rd one, was nowhere in the top 20 for the 4th one, but came back consistently for the Top 20 since then.

 

[Gengar84]

Takumi. Despite some of the memes, Takumi is quite popular among the Fates characters, reaching 3rd among the Male cast in Fates and he used to rank notably high in the Top 10 Males for CYL twice before going to 11th on the 3rd one, was nowhere in the top 20 for the 4th one, but came back consistently for the Top 20 since then.

I was never really big on Takumi personally. His design was kind of cool but I thought he was kind of a jerk for most of the game. I’m not sure what it is about him specifically because I like villains, antiheroes, and other characters that weren’t particularly friendly either but something about him always rubbed me the wrong way. I only played Birthright so maybe he’s better had I played through all three stories. Still, I’d be happy to see him as one of the alts to fill out the archer class since a lot of other people seem to like him.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah, that's why I suggested the Axe Fighters, Pegasus Knights, and Soldiers in the little sub-points; I'd prioritise axe users for the heavy slot and lance users for the Cavalry slot, assuming I don't have an infantry unit for the lance user instead. Of course, there's also popularity to take into account; Ike is super popular and at this point it would come off as a genuine surprise if he was cut, so you could make a good argument for him as the default Heavy Weapon fighter. That said, Three Houses was also a really big release and Edelgard is pretty damn popular too, on top of being a prominent character in all routes, so she'd work fine as the default too.

That said, having the two share a moveset might be a bit awkward, since Edelgard would probably be more elegant and refined than just "Big axe smack." It could work if it's a more generalized moveset and the variants are given more distinct animations, but still.

Lords tend be the more unique characters as far as classes go which is why I don't think this really works for any of the existing FE fighters. The only one who could be reasonably retroactively fit into it is Lucina being made into a costume as was originally intended, but she's such a low resource echo that I don't think that'd really be necessary anyway.

I think the same applies to the other potential lord characters that get thrown around, including the 3H leaders for example. I don't really see them being made into generic class representatives as they're already the more unique units of their game.

Character alts I think only really work for characters who lack unique weapons and abilities that would make them stand out, hence why I think it's best reserved for the many party member units. You pick some prominent/popular ones to serve as the base and add a few as alts that fit the body type/playstyle best. In this case I still think you'd have to split mages from dark mages for example. A pegasus knight moveset wouldn't include any male lance units as alts, etc. The split I'd personally go for has a mage with a dark mage echo/semi clone to rep magic. Then a pegasus knight with a wyvern rider/draco knight semi-clone to rep lances and axes respectively.

The two lords that I think would be the exceptions are actually Lyn and Hector who could potentially have Myrmidon and Fighter class (and related) units as alts. without feeling out of place.

Overall something like;

Spoiler

Caeda (Pegasus Knight/Lance) - Palla, Catria, Est, Clair, Tana, Sumia, Cordelia (plenty more pegasus knights to choose from, and I considered Hinoka from Fates too since she's that games equivalent)

Camilla (Wyvern Rider/Axe) - Minerva, Echidna, Jill, Cherche, Charlotte, Hilda

Merric (Elemental Mage, male/female) - Linde, Luthier, Mae, Arthur, Tine, Lilina, Miriel (I'd throw in some Sages too if alts. ever moved past 8)

Tharja (Dark Mage) - Sonya, Shade, Ophelia, Rhajat, Dorothea, Constance, Hapi

Lyn (Myrmidon, female/male) - Navarre, Marisa, Joshua, Mia, Lon'qu, Say'ri, Felix

Hector (Fighter) - Lex, Hawkeye, Greil, Basilio, Dedue, Raphael, Balthus

I see we are trying to wreck the FE roster again.

FE characters are not nearly as similar as the haters would have you believe.

I think we should stop with this "all FE characters are really Echoes of each other" thing. A series can utilize archetypes without that making every character the same character.

It was already touched upon a bit, but the FE characters currently in Smash can't really be cloned much more than they already have been. Yes, even Marth.

While there are a lot of complaints/generalizations about FE and its characters from the Smash fanbase at large, I don't that that's necessarily what's being said here. This isn't "scrap all the FE echoes! /all FE can be echoes!" As you, I and others have pointed out it doesn't really work for any of the current roster, but I don't think it'd be a bad idea to include a good number of fan favorites via characters as alts. /echoes where it can actually work. The biggest issue here would actually be the further complaints FE would get from it's usual detractors and whiners who would count each alt as a slot like people tried to do in the past for Jr. and the Koopalings as full separate Mario characters.

 

[Sucumbio]

I was never really big on Takumi personally. His design was kind of cool but he was kind of a jerk for most of the game. I’m not sure what it is about him specifically because I like villains, antiheroes, and other characters that weren’t particularly friendly either but something about him always rubbed me the wrong way. I only played Birthright so maybe he’s better had I played through all three stories.

Jerk archers are a thing in FE, no? Along with super frail child mages, hulking towers with no movement and of course, thieves with a questionable history.

Oh and sagacious bookworms.

 

[Gengar84]

Jerk archers are a thing in FE, no? Along with super frail child mages, hulking towers with no movement and of course, thieves with a questionable history.

Oh and sagacious bookworms.

Yeah that’s true. Shinon was kind of a jerk too at first but I actually really liked him as a character. I can’t really explain why I liked him and not Takumi.

As far as my personal top three favorite male characters in Fates, I’d go with Ryoma, Kaze, and Saizo. My absolute favorite character from the game is Rhinka followed by Rhajat. I’d say that I overall preferred a lot of the female characters in that game compared to the males.

 

[Kirbeh]

If they wanted to do an FE archer character Jeorge is right there. Plus, if they did the multi-character alt route, archer/sniper is one of the easiest classes to do it for. You could easily do an all male, all female, or mixed set and still have characters to spare. Virion, Shinon, Shamir, Brigid, Igrene, Clarisse, Python, Leon, Takumi, Noire, Ashe, etc.

 

[Ivander]

Yeah that’s true. Shinon was kind of a jerk too at first but I actually really liked him as a character. I can’t really explain why I liked him and not Takumi.

As far as my personal top three favorite male characters in Fates, I’d go with Ryoma, Kaze, and Saizo. My absolute favorite character from the game is Rhinka followed by Rhajat. I’d say that I overall preferred a lot of the female characters in that game compared to the males.

Part of it might be because the reason for Takumi's attitude towards Corrin coming back was not added in Fates and was only a thing in the Fates manga, once again showing the lack of much needed details for the game's writing. When Corrin was brought to Hoshido and got to see their mother Mikoto, when Takumi heard Corrin was back, he was almost ready to go see Corrin until he met Saizo along the way and Saizo mentions his encounter with both Corrin as well as Hans, the one who immediately went gung-ho on the Hoshidan defenders, which makes Takumi cautious of Corrin.
But it doesn't help that none of his other siblings ever contacted him regarding Corrin and he witnesses his siblings already doing things with Corrin, including archery, without him being asked if he himself wanted to join in, which kicks off Takumi's insecurity and his middle child syndrome. He almost gave up his own weapon, the Fujin Yumi, to his stepmother because of his inferiority complex until his retainers, Hinata and Oboro, and Mikoto gave him back his feeling of worth.
After that, the usual happens. His stepmother dies defending Corrin from the weapon they had being used to kill her and he sees Corrin responsible for her death and depending on which route Corrin does, Corrin either manages to regain Takumi's trust or it gets worse to the point of Takumi becoming so destroyed emotionally that he gets possessed.

I think the biggest difference between Shinon and Takumi is whereas Shinon's attitude and being a jerk literally comes from him being a cynical and arrogant jerk quite willing to insult people because he has hardly any respect for most people in general, Takumi's jerk-ish attitude towards Corrin comes from his distrust of Corrin and his own inferiority to them, and gets worse in Conquest. Shinon's jerk nature is intentional on his part whereas Takumi comes across as a jerk because he's also trying to maintain his confidence and hold back his insecurity, which he sometimes succeeds, sometimes he fails. And in Conquest's case, because Takumi actually does hate Corrin for what happened with Mikoto and Corrin going back to Nohr after.

 

[SPEN18]

I don’t know why you assume everyone making that suggestion are haters. I absolutely loved Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn and I also really enjoyed Awakening and Three Houses. Fates had some issues but I had a lot of fun with the actual gameplay in the battles. I also bought and enjoyed both Fire Emblem Warriors and Three Hopes.

While there are a lot of complaints/generalizations about FE and its characters from the Smash fanbase at large, I don't that that's necessarily what's being said here. This isn't "scrap all the FE echoes! /all FE can be echoes!" As you, I and others have pointed out it doesn't really work for any of the current roster, but I don't think it'd be a bad idea to include a good number of fan favorites via characters as alts. /echoes where it can actually work. The biggest issue here would actually be the further complaints FE would get from it's usual detractors and whiners who would count each alt as a slot like people tried to do in the past for Jr. and the Koopalings as full separate Mario characters.

No, I don't think all people suggesting the multialts are haters. I don't think everyone arguing in favor of the multialts here is doing so in bad faith. Didn't mean to suggest that. It was just rhetoric to make a point.

That said, I was hoping to avoid going into details but I really don't think the idea works very well. The argument is a bit different in each specific case but the body type, hitbox, fighting/movement style, personality, and weapon type mismatches could cause serious issues with various characters. And in many of the proposed categories, the most popular characters that you'd want to include in that bunch have very special attributes which means they'd have to either be made very awkward with the joint moveset or omitted in favor of lesser options.

Just a few top-of-mind examples of the obstacles:
Lyn and Eirika in the myrmidon category (you'd be losing bow moves for Lyn, unique animations and fighting style for both);
Celica and Micaiah in the mage category (swordplay for the former, highly unique spells/abilities for both), or Nino's body size;
Elincia in the flyer category (staff utility);
pretty much all the manaketes have vastly different body types, both in humanoid and in dragon forms;
it hurts my brain to imagine Edelgard fighting like Hector in the Axe category.

In almost all the cases I'd rather focus on one of the most popular characters who likely has more unique attributes and a specific personality or fighting style to build around rather than making concessions just to get some hollow names and faces.

 

[Kirbeh]

No, I don't think all people suggesting the multialts are haters. I don't think everyone arguing in favor of the multialts here is doing so in bad faith. Didn't mean to suggest that. It was just rhetoric to make a point.

That said, I was hoping to avoid going into details but I really don't think the idea works very well. The argument is a bit different in each specific case but the body type, hitbox, fighting/movement style, personality, and weapon type mismatches could cause serious issues with various characters. And in many of the proposed categories, the most popular characters that you'd want to include in that bunch have very special attributes which means they'd have to either be made very awkward with the joint moveset or omitted in favor of lesser options.

Just a few top-of-mind examples of the obstacles:
Lyn and Eirika in the myrmidon category (you'd be losing bow moves for Lyn, unique animations and fighting style for both);
Celica and Micaiah in the mage category (swordplay for the former, highly unique spells/abilities for both), or Nino's body size;
Elincia in the flyer category (staff utility);
pretty much all the manaketes have vastly different body types, both in humanoid and in dragon forms;
it hurts my brain to imagine Edelgard fighting like Hector in the Axe category.

In almost all the cases I'd rather focus on one of the most popular characters who likely has more unique attributes and a specific personality or fighting style to build around rather than making concessions just to get some hollow names and faces.

That's fair, though I do think that's something that can be taken into account as well.

In the examples I used compared to yours:

I made Lyn the base and used characters who would not be out of place using bows like Felix and Lon'qu who can use bows when reclassing. That way Lyn can fully utilize her kit while including some additional favorites. Or if you don't want to shrink Lon'qu a couple inches and stick to female characters there's always Say'ri, and Marisa.

I specifically omitted Eirika, Celica, Micaiah, Nino, Elincia and Edelgard, for the very reasons you listed. I don't think they would work with this either. I am fully in agreement that classes as fighters are not a one-size-fits-all situation. Characters would need to be carefully curated.

Perhaps it's more trouble than it's worth and perhaps the characters that could make do this way simply aren't popular/prominent enough, but I do think it is feasible were it something they actually tried to do.

 

[SharkLord]

I see we are trying to wreck the FE roster again.

FE characters are not nearly as similar as the haters would have you believe.

I think we should stop with this "all FE characters are really Echoes of each other" thing. A series can utilize archetypes without that making every character the same character.

It was already touched upon a bit, but the FE characters currently in Smash can't really be cloned much more than they already have been. Yes, even Marth.

And I'm not saying that every Fire Emblem character is just a Marth clone. I was just bringing up archetypes that aren't in Smash that I think would be cool to see, because the idea of characters having multiple variants was brought up and I happened to be running through a potential alternate FE lineup at the time.

And I do agree, the fighters we have right now don't fit perfectly into the archetypes mentioned. Robin isn't a pure Mage because they also have swords, Corrin isn't a pure Lord because of the dragon parts, but they're not a perfect Manakete, either, because they use the dragon half in a different manner than the other Manaketes in the franchise. Byleth's a walking armory in Smash, and even if you focus on just the Sword of the Creator, it's a friggin whipsword that doesn't fit neatly into any moveset. And I did also acknowledge that some of the other examples wouldn't be a perfect match, either, like Celica also having a sword, or "heavy weapon" fighters like Edelgard and Ike having different fighting styes that would take some finagling to make it work.

I'm not sure if I made it clear enough in my original post, but it was just spitballing for an alternate FE lineup, not trying to turn every fighter we have now into an alt or Echo. Also worth noting that I intended for the "variants" to have a bit more room for variety than just beng a glorified alt, like different effects or specials (Though I may not have established that very well, my bad)

Takumi. Despite some of the memes, Takumi is quite popular among the Fates characters, reaching 3rd among the Male cast in Fates and he used to rank notably high in the Top 10 Males for CYL twice before going to 11th on the 3rd one, was nowhere in the top 20 for the 4th one, but came back consistently for the Top 20 since then.

Oh yeeeaaaah, Takumi.

Not gonna lie I forgot about whatever was going on in Fates. Whoops

Funnily enough, I had my own ideal representation of Fire Emblem in Smash that some of these archetypes fit into.

• Marth (Lord / Sword)
• Lyn (Myrmidon)
• Ike (Cavalier)
• Robin (Magician)
• Azura (Dancer)
• Byleth (Weapon Triangle)

Dunno if that was a typo or not but Cavaliers are the horse riders. Ike doesn't ride a horse

 

[SPEN18]

I made Lyn the base and used characters who would not be out of place using bows like Felix and Lon'qu who can use bows when reclassing. That way Lyn can fully utilize her kit while including some additional favorites.

I specifically omitted Eirika, Celica, Micaiah, Nino, Elincia and Edelgard, for the very reasons you listed. I don't think they would work with this either.

The more modern characters like Felix and Lon'qu would be a little out of place performing some of the over-the-top GBA-style moves I have in mind for Lyn. Not sure that a bow really suits Lon'qu. Not sure if the hair length would be an issue (ponytail physics!). And even the clothing could potentially cause complications with the hitboxes and models.

And yes, if you acknowledge that several of the most popular choices wouldn't work with this, then that kind of blows things up. The omissions are serious issues when the ones most likely to not fit well are very likely among the top choices, i.e. the characters whose popularity even brings this up to begin with.

 

[RodNutTakin]

In an ideal custom move revival, they could be so much more than what we got in Sm4sh, but with a roster so large, it's really not feasible for both the roster size and some characters simply not having enough material to work with. It's not that I don't think there's potential there, but if we're going to have alternate moves, I honestly do think it makes more sense for a handful of characters to simply have alternate versions. This also allows for more actual differences between the variants than just the 4 specials.

I might get blasted for this, but if you ask me, they should've used the time they spent on making custom moves during Smash 4's development instead on making a few more clones/echoes that could've used some of those custom moves, especially considering how some of the moves didn't really have good customizability and how they quickly gave up on making customs for the DLC fighters.
Oh yeah, and also because getting custom moves was actual torture. I wasn't even able to get all of them on my Wii U copy before we sold the console because of how the randomization worked.

 

[Kirbeh]

The more modern characters like Felix and Lon'qu would be a little out of place performing some of the over-the-top GBA-style moves I have in mind for Lyn. Not sure that a bow really suits Lon'qu. Not sure if the hair length would be an issue (ponytail physics!). And even the clothing could potentially cause complications with the hitboxes and models.

And yes, if you acknowledge that several of the most popular choices wouldn't work with this, then that kind of blows things up. The omissions are serious issues when the ones most likely to not fit well are very likely among the top choices, i.e. the characters whose popularity even brings this up to begin with.

I'll simply disagree with the first part as I don't think the GBA animations would be all that strange on other characters.

Hair and clothing would be an issue if they're intended to be part of hit/hurt boxes. We already have examples in Smash of different hair on male/female models through Robin and Corrin. And we have instances of fairly different clothing via some alts such as regular coat sephy vs shirtless. Also see just about any other fighting game with proper alternate costumes like Street Fighter or Tekken (and even alternate hairstyles in games like Dead or Alive), this really shouldn't be an issue unless they make clothes actually function as part of the body.

I also have to disagree with the last point. If Lyn made it in as a newcomer and she had Say'ri as one of her alts just to throw another bone to Awakening/Say'ri fans would that really be a problem?

This idea is not intended to omit the more unique characters from Smash, it's to add a few extra characters where it could actually work. When I made the point of omitting Edelgard as a Hector alt for example, it was just that. She gets omitted from Hector's alts because that just wouldn't work. Same goes if she were the character chosen over Hector.

I might get blasted for this, but if you ask me, they should've used the time they spent on making custom moves during Smash 4's development instead on making a few more clones/echoes that could've used some of those custom moves, especially considering how some of the moves didn't really have good customizability and how they quickly gave up on making customs for the DLC fighters.
Oh yeah, and also because getting custom moves was actual torture. I wasn't even able to get all of them on my Wii U copy before we sold the console because of how the randomization worked.

I'll get blasted right alongside you then, as I completely agree. Custom moves are fun and aren't without merit, but they were handled somewhat poorly imo.

 

[SharkLord]

Eh, I'll admit, my original pitch was fairly half-baked. On one hand, I had an idea for an alternate lineup that covers some weapon types that weren't covered yet. I had a mostly solid idea of who I'd use but was still not 100% sure. On the other hand, I had a vague concept of an expanded Echo system that could have some different moves, mechanics, hitboxes, or whatever. It seemed like a cool idea, but truth be told I wasn't exactly who I'd use as Echoes. So put that together, it's kind of a messy, unfinished concept that might not work perfectly.

So I'll keep that in mind. Had an idea, spitballed it, didn't quite stick. Good to know

 

[Kirbeh]

Eh, I'll admit, my original pitch was fairly half-baked. On one hand, I had an idea for an alternate lineup that covers some weapon types that weren't covered yet. I had a mostly solid idea of who I'd use but was still not 100% sure. On the other hand, I had a vague concept of an expanded Echo system that could have some different moves, mechanics, hitboxes, or whatever. It seemed like a cool idea, but truth be told I wasn't exactly who I'd use as Echoes. So put that together, it's kind of a messy, unfinished concept that might not work perfectly.

So I'll keep that in mind. Had an idea, spitballed it, didn't quite stick. Good to know

For what it's worth I still don't think it's a bad idea, it just needs to be very selective.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I might get blasted for this, but if you ask me, they should've used the time they spent on making custom moves during Smash 4's development instead on making a few more clones/echoes that could've used some of those custom moves, especially considering how some of the moves didn't really have good customizability and how they quickly gave up on making customs for the DLC fighters.

More importantly, they should've used the custom moves they spent all that time making to better differentiate some of the Echoes in Ultimate.

Dark Samus and Daisy should have used different custom moves.

 

[Opossum]

More importantly, they should've used the custom moves they spent all that time making to better differentiate some of the Echoes in Ultimate.

Dark Samus and Daisy should have used different custom moves.

It will always be funny to me that they actively removed the one difference they accidentally gave Daisy, that being that they forgot to update her version of the Turnips from Peach's Smash 4 version to her Ultimate when porting the move to Daisy.

Just...actively removed the one thing that made her different in the smallest way imaginable.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It will always be funny to me that they actively removed the one difference they accidentally gave Daisy, that being that they forgot to update her version of the Turnips from Peach's Smash 4 version to her Ultimate when porting the move to Daisy.

Just...actively removed the one thing that made her different in the smallest way imaginable.

That one difference was enough for Peach/Daisy mains to have a gameplay preference between the two. Frankly that's how echoes should be designed. Similar, but having subtle but noticable and significant differences.

 

[SPEN18]

I'll simply disagree with the first part as I don't think the GBA animations would be all that strange on other characters.

Hair and clothing would be an issue if they're intended to be part of hit/hurt boxes. We already have examples in Smash of different hair on male/female models through Robin and Corrin. And we have instances of fairly different clothing via some alts such as regular coat sephy vs shirtless. Also see just about any other fighting game with proper alternate costumes like Street Fighter or Tekken (and even alternate hairstyles in games like Dead or Alive), this really shouldn't be an issue unless they make clothes actually function as part of the body.

I also have to disagree with the last point. If Lyn made it in as a newcomer and she had Say'ri as one of her alts just to throw another bone to Awakening/Say'ri fans would that really be a problem?

This idea is not intended to omit the more unique characters from Smash, it's to add a few extra characters where it could actually work. When I made the point of omitting Edelgard as a Hector alt for example, it was just that. She gets omitted from Hector's alts because that just wouldn't work. Same goes if she were the character chosen over Hector.

Yeah the hair/clothing depends on the implementation, though mostly it's illustrating that there's a lot to think about with this kind of thing and as fans we risk oversimplifying. Though I still think Lyn's actions are just very unique to her and if you compare the characters' animations in the source material there is definitely some reconciling that needs to be done. I'd still rather focus a potential Lyn moveset on bringing out her personal attributes rather than compromise for the sake of alts.

And yes, a rando Say'ri alt would just not make any sense. I hate to say it but it's just not worth it even for minimal effort; like, having more colors of the main character would honestly probably please people just as much or more if there's a huge gap in notoriety between the main character and the proposed alt. These games are on a budget and time crunch; they have to pick and choose which items to add out of the plethora of things that they possibly could add.
Each and every named character on the roster is there due to very specific reasons and motivations, not all of which I agree with, but specific and pertaining to their unique history and/or attributes. I think the history of named alts shows that they typically only happen when they likewise have a specific motivation or concept in mind, which I don't personally think is strong enough for the FE alts idea in the very limited cases where it might actually be feasible and reasonable to do.
Also Say'ri has the dual sword thing going on and probably doesn't make a ton of sense with the bow, either, but that's particular to your example.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm getting some flashbacks to "We can fit every ARMS fighter into one slot" arguments .

 

[SharkLord]

Truth be told I'm not sure if Lyn would really need the bow. I dunno, it never really seemed integral to her character. Like, yeah, she uses it pretty prominently in Engage, but Engage smudged some of the details for the sake of weapon variety between the Emblems, like Sigurd starting out with a lance and Ike with a hammer, even though both are usually associated with swords.

Yeah, I agree that squeeze a bunch of characters into a single slot would make some of the movesets feel kinda off, but I don't think we need to cover every single aspect for the sake of uniqueness. I think Lyn works fine just doing some nifty quickdraw tricks

I'm getting some flashbacks to "We can fit every ARMS fighter into one slot" arguments .

I realize now I have perhaps made an unwise decision

 

[SPEN18]

Truth be told I'm not sure if Lyn would really need the bow.

True that you could do a Lyn moveset without the bow. But it does add more options if you include it, and in any case, as I said, I would not want compromising for alts to be the reason for not using it.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah the hair/clothing depends on the implementation, though mostly it's illustrating that there's a lot to think about with this kind of thing and as fans we risk oversimplifying. Though I still think Lyn's actions are just very unique to her and if you compare the characters' animations in the source material there is definitely some reconciling that needs to be done. I'd still rather focus a potential Lyn moveset on bringing out her personal attributes rather than compromise for the sake of alts.

And yes, a rando Say'ri alt would just not make any sense. I hate to say it but it's just not worth it even for minimal effort; like, having more colors of the main character would honestly probably please people just as much or more if there's a huge gap in notoriety between the main character and the proposed alt. These games are on a budget and time crunch; they have to pick and choose which items to add out of the plethora of things that they possibly could add.
Each and every named character on the roster is there due to very specific reasons and motivations, not all of which I agree with, but specific and pertaining to their unique history and/or attributes. I think the history of named alts shows that they typically only happen when they likewise have a specific motivation or concept in mind, which I don't personally think is strong enough for the FE alts idea in the very limited cases where it might actually be feasible and reasonable to do.
Also Say'ri has the dual sword thing going on and probably doesn't make a ton of sense with the bow, either, but that's particular to your example.

Say'ri has two swords on her person but only fights with one. Lyn has also been depicted with two swords on her person (in Awakening and Warriors respectively.) It's an aesthetic choice. Say'ri is also fully capable of using a bow as she reclasses into an Assassin.

I'll reiterate, that I use examples like Marisa, Say'ri and Karla specifically because they could work as alts without any compromise to Lyn's kit. I absolutely agree that it's highly unlikely, I was never under the delusion that they would prioritize making alts out of minor characters (realistically I could see some colors based on other myrmidons at least). The argument was simply that it is feasible and would be nice additional fanservice.

If you simply dislike the idea of character alts. then I'm not looking to change your mind, so agree to disagree I suppose.

I will say that I do understand the sentiment at least. You want each character to be as unique and well represented as possible, which I can agree with, I'd like that too. But I simply don't believe that curating the characters with the same class/es, weapon, body type, fighting style and aesthetic (for most cases) for some alts is an idea lacking any merit.

With a cast as large as FE has, I think a few additional nods could please a lot of fans even if some choices would wind up being niche. It's the sort of thing that I honestly don't think is really all that out of place in a game like Smash that already goes out of its way to include as much of Nintendo's history as possible.

That aside I'd be equally content with Lyn (or whoever else) making it in and having standard alts. The only exception is that they at least need to use some of the Heroes alts. Those are too good to ignore and Smash has gone far too long and is way to picky about who gets to have real costumes.

I'm getting some flashbacks to "We can fit every ARMS fighter into one slot" arguments .

That's not what's being proposed but I suppose there's little point in arguing further.

 

[fogbadge]

i was wondering why the FE theme was coming from this thread

 

[Perkilator]

Dunno if that was a typo or not but Cavaliers are the horse riders. Ike doesn't ride a horse

Fixed

 

[Gengar84]

I feel like this is all just a matter of opinion and personal preference and there’s no one right or wrong answer. I think it depends what you value in a character. If what you care about most is the character’s accurate moveset and gameplay, I can totally understand why people wouldn’t really be too big on alts or echoes. For example, I’m not really too big on Dixie or Impa being echoes because I feel they have so much more potential as unique characters.

When I play Fire Emblem, I focus more on the characters’ personalities and design and don’t really put too much thought on their moveset. Especially because characters can swap to any class in Three Houses so I don’t really see many of having one standout moveset beyond the house leaders. Because I put more value on other aspects beyond moveset, I’m more than happy to make a few concessions and have some characters not play exactly one to one as they do in Fire Emblem. The way I see it is I’d rather the character be playable in some form than not at all, which would be the case for most of my favorites.

We also already have precedent in Fire Emblem movesets being based on class rather than individual characters in both Fire Emblem Warriors and Three Hopes. Warriors had several clones between characters of the same class. Tharja was a clone of Robin for example. Other clones include Takumi/Anna/Sakura/Niles, Ryoma/Owain, Cordelia/Hinoka/Caeda, Leo/Elise, and Marth/Celica. Three Hopes let you change any character to almost any class beyond a select few and their movesets changed accordingly.

 

[Oracle Link]

I just heard more Links so here:

and because of the high demand for link shiek, GAnondorf and zelda get cut but 3 new links are added to re4place them:

 

[DarthEnderX]

Episode 3 of Sakurai vs. Arino.
1:34 Hayabusa for Smash!
7:30 Kunio for Smash!
16:47 Bill Rizer for Smash!