Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Metaknight - model swaps for Galactaknight, Dark Metaknight, and Morphoknight

Yes to Dark Metaknight.

Galactaknight/Morphoknight should be an Echo.

 

[CannonStreak]

Yes to Dark Metaknight.

Galactaknight/Morphoknight should be an Echo.

I have to agree, especially Galactaknight and Morphoknight being an echo. I always wanted to see that character as a playable character in Smash.

 

[Perkilator]

HERE YE BWD ENJOYERS

Hey, what's this? A new challenger approaches...or RE-approaches, actually!

Ready yourselves later this week for an updated Smash design for Bandana Dee that far outclasses the original from years ago. pic.twitter.com/kc6HyQjtzg

— Delzethin (@Delzethin) October 17, 2023

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Namco would never have gone for it, but it would have been cool to have alternate Pac-Man colors based on the classic ghosts: Inky, Blinky, Pinky, Clyde, & Sue. Maybe even have a light grey one as a shout out to Orson from the Pac-Man World series.

 

[dream1ng]

Okay folks. Here's a fun thought experiment.

Let's assume that Ultimate's newcomers were never included, but everything else in the gaming landscape stayed the same. Characters would still appear in titles and newer games would still be made.

How would the speculation around those characters change? Would some be seen as never evers? Would some have stronger cases for inclusion now than they did back then?

For the record, the newcomers are...




Just to give one example, I think Daisy might become one of the most requested and most likely characters with her inclusion in Super Mario Wonder. Wonder would have taken the biggest argument against her (stuck in spin off hell since the 80s) and utterly demolished it.

I feel like I need more clarification whether there was a Smash 5 that just didn't include any of these characters or not, and whether when judging the characters now, the roster is going to be standard size or like Ultimate's again where there is very limited room in base.

I'm just gonna proceed like Ultimate is just happening now instead of 2018, and there was no other Smash in the interim.

Improve:
: Inkling's case was already pretty airtight, but the series has only gotten bigger since. There's no reason she wouldn't still be among the most popular and most inevitable inclusions.

: Yep, Wonder would've definitely helped her case. Though some people might argue that Super Mario Run is also mainline. I think her case would be stronger than last time, though I still think she very plausibly could've ended up a clone, with arguments on that basis.

: Again, her case was already strong, but AC taking over the world would've tipped her pretty close to inevitable, with Inkling.

: The game series may still not be up to much, but the tv series would've helped spur additional popularity for Simon. Plus the gradual return of some Konami properties might help sway people. That said, Bomberman has been more active, so there'd still be a lot of contention.

: I don't think Richter would benefit from what benefits Simon, given Simon (and Alucard) were the main fan choices, so anything beneficial for Castlevania would've primarily distilled down to them, including Nocturne. However, given there was basically no attention on Richter before he got in, at least Nocturne would've brought him some.

: All the Persona stuff on Switch (including 5) would've helped with one of Joker's major detractions. Though there would also be increased demand for Nahobino, and pre-Ultimate there were still vestiges of Nintendo association swaying things. Plus Nahobino is newer, which people will think matters.

: Once Banjo came to NSO it'd be done, there'd be parades in the street.

Decrease:
: They're not the most recent characters in series that focus on promotion. Expectation would've moved on to the current choices.

: The more time that passed since Sakurai agreed Ridley was too big, the more the fanbase would've accepted his fate and had his demand decline. Plus he didn't show up in Dread, and that wouldn't have helped either.

: The further we get from Awakening, the more other characters are going to come and eat away at the popularity that helped get Chrom included. With 3H, Engage, and I guess Heroes, Chrom's popularity would still exist, but definitely have been diminished.

:: People were already saying ARMS was dead and failed before we got Min Min. Add another three/four years of that series being inactive, it wouldn't have helped any of them. Plus, you also have to consider since it was happening now, Astral Chain and especially Ring Fit wouldn't be seen as too new. And tbf, were it happening now, Ring Fit probably would get priority over ARMS. So it depends if the roster size/distribution was to change as well.

Stay the Same:
: I think K. Rool would maintain momentum in the fanbase that Ridley lost, and therefore become less contested there. I also think he would benefit from the rumblings of Nintendo returning to DK. However, given he's not actually been part of those rumblings, I think that may increase competition from DIxie and Pauline fanbases. Moreover, with the SMRPG remake and Banjo on NSO, two other fanbase favorites would increase in popularity, which, even though they're both third-party, I think would cast doubt on which fanbase characters we'd actually get. So I think it shakes out to neutral here.

: So, if everything else is staying the same, then even though the KH games likely only came to Switch because of Sora in Smash, getting them still would've been seen as auspicious (despite not really working that way). On the other hand, I think people would've read way too much into Nintendo's major and successful collaborations with Universal as a mark against Disney. So I think it sort of equals out.

: I was gonna say things would've improved for Dark Samus because of Prime 4 (despite her questionable attendance in it), but then I remembered that Prime 4 was still known and thought to be arriving soon-ish even back in 2018, lol.

: I see some people think Hero's chance would've improved, but DQ was plenty big and plenty successful before 11. In Japan at least, which is what mattered most here.

: There is a new Fatal Fury coming, and KoF is doing ok, but the thing is, very few entertained SNK beforehand, so that stuff still wouldn't really register.

: On one hand, the increased MS support would've helped. But on the other, before Ultimate, Steve was a very controversial choice. Without other additions like Joker and Terry to help "widen the gates", Banjo to help fight the no-western argument, and, honestly, Vergeben, to actually bring the possibility of Steve/Minecraft to a place of legitimate discussion and eventual greater acceptance, I think these factors would've sort of cancelled each other out.

: Whoever the first one was was going to blindside people and not be expected, hindering discussion. If Sephiroth wasn't the first, sure, his chances would be thought to improve greatly. Otherwise, it'd be the same. Even with the remake games.

: Not much to say on these. Don't think anything has transpired that would change how these would've been viewed prior to their inclusions.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I feel like I need more clarification whether there was a Smash 5 that just didn't include any of these characters or not, and whether when judging the characters now, the roster is going to be standard size or like Ultimate's again where there is very limited room in base.

I'm just gonna proceed like Ultimate is just happening now instead of 2018, and there was no other Smash in the interim.

Improve:
: Inkling's case was already pretty airtight, but the series has only gotten bigger since. There's no reason she wouldn't still be among the most popular and most inevitable inclusions.

: Yep, Wonder would've definitely helped her case. Though some people might argue that Super Mario Run is also mainline. I think her case would be stronger than last time, though I still think she very plausibly could've ended up a clone, with arguments on that basis.

: Again, her case was already strong, but AC taking over the world would've tipped her pretty close to inevitable, with Inkling.

: The game series may still not be up to much, but the tv series would've helped spur additional popularity for Simon. Plus the gradual return of some Konami properties might help sway people. That said, Bomberman has been more active, so there'd still be a lot of contention.

: I don't think Richter would benefit from what benefits Simon, given Simon (and Alucard) were the main fan choices, so anything beneficial for Castlevania would've primarily distilled down to them, including Nocturne. However, given there was basically no attention on Richter before he got in, at least Nocturne would've brought him some.

: All the Persona stuff on Switch (including 5) would've helped with one of Joker's major detractions. Though there would also be increased demand for Nahobino, and pre-Ultimate there were still vestiges of Nintendo association swaying things. Plus Nahobino is newer, which people will think matters.

: Once Banjo came to NSO it'd be done, there'd be parades in the street.

Decrease:
: They're not the most recent characters in series that focus on promotion. Expectation would've moved on to the current choices.

: The more time that passed since Sakurai agreed Ridley was too big, the more the fanbase would've accepted his fate and had his demand decline. Plus he didn't show up in Dread, and that wouldn't have helped either.

: The further we get from Awakening, the more other characters are going to come and eat away at the popularity that helped get Chrom included. With 3H, Engage, and I guess Heroes, Chrom's popularity would still exist, but definitely have been diminished.

:: People were already saying ARMS was dead and failed before we got Min Min. Add another three/four years of that series being inactive, it wouldn't have helped any of them. Plus, you also have to consider since it was happening now, Astral Chain and especially Ring Fit wouldn't be seen as too new. And tbf, were it happening now, Ring Fit probably would get priority over ARMS. So it depends if the roster size/distribution was to change as well.

Stay the Same:
: I think K. Rool would maintain momentum in the fanbase that Ridley lost, and therefore become less contested there. I also think he would benefit from the rumblings of Nintendo returning to DK. However, given he's not actually been part of those rumblings, I think that may increase competition from DIxie and Pauline fanbases. Moreover, with the SMRPG remake and Banjo on NSO, two other fanbase favorites would increase in popularity, which, even though they're both third-party, I think would cast doubt on which fanbase characters we'd actually get. So I think it shakes out to neutral here.

: So, if everything else is staying the same, then even though the KH games likely only came to Switch because of Sora in Smash, getting them still would've been seen as auspicious (despite not really working that way). On the other hand, I think people would've read way too much into Nintendo's major and successful collaborations with Universal as a mark against Disney. So I think it sort of equals out.

: I was gonna say things would've improved for Dark Samus because of Prime 4 (despite her questionable attendance in it), but then I remembered that Prime 4 was still known and thought to be arriving soon-ish even back in 2018, lol.

: I see some people think Hero's chance would've improved, but DQ was plenty big and plenty successful before 11. In Japan at least, which is what mattered most here.

: There is a new Fatal Fury coming, and KoF is doing ok, but the thing is, very few entertained SNK beforehand, so that stuff still wouldn't really register.

: On one hand, the increased MS support would've helped. But on the other, before Ultimate, Steve was a very controversial choice. Without other additions like Joker and Terry to help "widen the gates", Banjo to help fight the no-western argument, and, honestly, Vergeben, to actually bring the possibility of Steve/Minecraft to a place of legitimate discussion and eventual greater acceptance, I think these factors would've sort of cancelled each other out.

: Whoever the first one was was going to blindside people and not be expected, hindering discussion. If Sephiroth wasn't the first, sure, his chances would be thought to improve greatly. Otherwise, it'd be the same. Even with the remake games.

: Not much to say on these. Don't think anything has transpired that would change how these would've been viewed prior to their inclusions.

I agree with most of this, but I think you're underestimating how much staying power Ridley had in the fanbase. I mean, he was still easily one of the most requested characters at a time where the franchise was pretty much dead (Smash 4 era). Even in Ultimate era he was heavily speculated despite having pretty much nothing for him aside from fan demand (remember that Ultimate project plan was before Samus returns released and even before Federation force, so it was in the big Metroid hiatus). If anything I think Dread would have help his case a lot despite making no appearance in the game just because it was the big franchise revival. I guess you could argue that some fans might have rally behind Raven beak, but I feel like most people would still talk a lot about the more classic antagonist and Raven beak is mostly popular in the context that we already have Ridley, I don't think he would be as much popular as our first Metroid vilain.

 

[dream1ng]

I agree with most of this, but I think you're underestimating how much staying power Ridley had in the fanbase. I mean, he was still easily one of the most requested characters at a time where the franchise was pretty much dead (Smash 4 era). Even in Ultimate era he was heavily speculated despite having pretty much nothing for him aside from fan demand (remember that Ultimate project plan was before Samus returns released and even before Federation force, so it was in the big Metroid hiatus). If anything I think Dread would have help his case a lot despite making no appearance in the game just because it was the big franchise revival. I guess you could argue that some fans might have rally behind Raven beak, but I feel like most people would still talk a lot about the more classic antagonist and Raven beak is mostly popular in the context that we already have Ridley, I don't think he would be as much popular as our first Metroid vilain.

After a Sakurai statement echoing "too big", his popularity wouldn't have gone up, and it wouldn't have stayed the same. It had already began to descend, it's just that period was like now, between Smash games, in a sparsely populated off-season which, comparatively, didn't last long.

Ridley was obviously extremely popular, but no character is immune from losing at least some support after Sakurai invalidates them. That doesn't preclude a contingent ardent on reminding people Sakurai has changed his mind before, who would actually be substantiated on this one, but even so, Sakurai quashing a character is not going to lack an effect on their perception among the fanbase.

So since it wasn't going to go up, and it wasn't going to remain unchanged, there's only one category left.

Also, there was no real Ultimate era without Ridley in focus, because the leaks/hints concerning him started literally before Ultimate's tease.

And no, Dread would not have helped Ridley. Ridley isn't in that game. Did Star Fox Zero help Krystal? And what's more, it would've given Metroid a candidate that wouldn't have had people arguing their feasibility, with a series that was in high demand for more. Raven Beak would've taken a big old chomp of the Metroid pie. Not because the character is as recurring or prolific as Ridley, but because the character was popular and would've been seen as an actual uncontroversial option feasibility-wise in a series that didn't have many. People already gravitated towards Raven Beak a decent amount for a character in his situation. Imagine if we didn't have Ridley or Dark Samus, and we had been told we weren't going to get Ridley.

Adding a candidate is rarely good for the existing candidates demand-wise. Popularity-wise, a series is behooved to have as few plausible options as possible (but still at least one) so the fanbase doesn't risk fragmentation. Look at what's happened to the Zelda series. Look at Smash's most demanded third-parties, now or historically, and count how many aren't that series' obvious representation, where it could plausibly go to someone else instead. Not many.

 

[Stratos]

I just found out that a certain Kevin Afghani will be the new voice actor to play the voice of Mario. It's really a shame that Charles Martinet decided to leave, but he will always be the legend who played the voice of Mario, as of course he also played the voices of Luigi, Wario and Waluigi as well.

 

[Oracle Link]

One thing i never understood is how people look at Champion link and Toon Link and come to the Conclusion that Toon Link should get a full moveset Overhaul? I mean yes i know for arbitrary 3d first reason the newest Adult Link is considerd the normal one but i mean
Toon Link used Boomerang, Bow and Bombs in every single one of his apearences meanwhile skull hammer and Deku leaf appeared once!
And Champion Link has never used Normal Bombs, Doesnt focus on boomerangs and cant use Gappling hook which is one of classic Links most iconic Weapons!
So If we have only 4 spots filling them with Link from his 2 most sold games, Zelda, Ganondorf, And the Perfect Rep for Classic Link just makes sense?
Obviously tho Champion Link would pull from both of his games!

And No matter what happens the zelda characters need more Outfits!
Champion link With his diffrent armour
Toon Link with LA Remake Link
Zelda with her diffrent incarantions
Ganondorf with OOT and TP G Dorf
etc.

Also considering that 3rd parties are the hardest to license i think a majority of them should get cut to make place for new 3rd Party Reps!

Also Give Me a Octorok Gun, and Toon Link For the next Smash and as long as there are tons of cuts for other big franchises im Fine when it comes to Zelda!

Better get your expectations low and mine are Champion Link, Zelda , TOTK Ganondorf and Toon Link... AND OCTOROK GUN!

 

[DarthEnderX]

One thing i never understood is how people look at Champion link and Toon Link and come to the Conclusion that Toon Link should get a full moveset Overhaul?

Because Adult Link was the first Smash Link. Which makes him the default Link. Which makes people associate him with the default moveset.

But yes, at this point it would be WAY easier to give Adult Link a completely new moveset than Toon Link. He just has WAY more options to draw from.

 

[Geno Boost]

my solution to the 3 links for the next smash game is
-Declone toon link
-Update Link moveset a bit more to be more fit with the current champion link
-add mask transformation gimmick to Young Link
-add Dark Link as an echo of Link that will use old Link moveset

 

[Swamp Sensei]

my solution to the 3 links for the next smash game is
-Declone toon link
-Update Link moveset a bit more to be more fit with the current champion link
-add mask transformation gimmick to Young Link
-add Dark Link as an echo of Link that will use old Link moveset

I don't think adding a fourth Link is the solution here.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I'm still trying to figure out how to make Trap Team's gimmick work in Smash. Would it be like they have their own personal Assist Trophy that they can summon when the meter's full? But that could end up pretty broken...

I'm thinking Assist Mechanics personally. But imagine if they were able to Trap an Assist of the Opponent. That sounds amazing!

 

[HyperSomari64]

If Sonic's kit was based on Sonic and the Black Knight, would it makes him a Swordie McJRPG?

 

[osby]

If Sonic's kit was based on Sonic and the Black Knight, would it makes him a Swordie McJRPG?

It would make him a Saberface.

 

[Perkilator]

IMO, the ideal Zelda representation should be:

Spoiler: Length, obviously

• Link
  • Zelda II design in 64
  • OoT design in Melee
  • TwiPri design in Brawl
  • Skyward Squidward Sword design in Sm4sh, with his casual shirt as an alt
  • BotW desgin in Ultimate, with these sets as alts:
    • Champion's Tunic (default)
    • Hero of the Wild set
    • Well-Worn Outfit
    • Hero of Time set
    • Royal Guard set
    • Hero of Twilight set
    • Nintendo Switch Shirt
    • Dark set
• Zelda / Sheik
  • OoT design in Melee
  • TwiPri design in Brawl (including the scrapped TwiPri design for Sheik)
  • Zelda and Sheik become separate characters in Sm4sh due to 3DS limitations; Sheik retains her Brawl design while Zelda gains a new design based on Link Between Worlds
  • Zelda keeps her LBW design in Ultimate while Sheik gets a new design based on the Sheikah set in Breath of the Wild
• Ganondorf
  • Starts out as a Captain Falcon semi-clone in Melee, playing similar to how he does in Ultimate:
    • Uses his sword in his forward smash, his trident in his up smash and a shockwave punch for his down smash
    • Neutral special is Dead Man's volley
  • TwiPri design in Brawl; gains Flame Choke as a side special
  • Goes right back to OoT design in Sm4sh and Ultimate
• Tetra
  • Debuts in Brawl with an original moveset based on aspects of Wind Waker
• Ghirahim
  • Debuts in Sm4sh with an original moveset based on his boss fights in Skyward Squidward Sword
• Revali
  • Debuts in Ultimate with an original moveset based primarily on his archery and Rito skills, utilizing five different types of arrows you can find in Breath of the Wild
• And just for ****s and giggles, a Yiga Footsoldier in Ultimate as an Echo Fighter of Sheik

 

[fogbadge]

I don't think adding a fourth Link is the solution here.

how about all the links?

 

[FazDude]

virgin adding more links vs chad bringing back custom moves to represent stuff like the masks and botw moves

 

[DarthEnderX]

If Sonic's kit was based on Sonic and the Black Knight, would it makes him a Swordie McJRPG?

He'd be an Anime Swordskrunko.

 

[Kirbeh]

virgin adding more links vs chad bringing back custom moves to represent stuff like the masks and botw moves

Custom moves were only really a thing as modifications of the base specials. I'd much rather have a proper transforming MM Link or more BoTW moves spread across the actual champions/successors than a couple of custom specials.

 

[Speed Weed]

I have a solution: cut every Link. No more Links

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

If we're going to insist on adding Cereal Box mascots that wield swords, I mean Sparkster is right there folks:

 

[Schnee117]

I have a solution: cut every Link. No more Links

Ok Ganondorf

 

[FazDude]

Custom moves were only really a thing as modifications of the base specials. I'd much rather have a proper transforming MM Link or more BoTW moves spread across the actual champions/successors than a couple of custom specials.

I'd be down for BOTW stuff spread across champions, but even if I think a BOTW and "Classic" Link can coexist, having four Links would probably start to feel like overkill. I also think custom specials are still a concept with lots of potential.

 

[HyperSomari64]

If we're going to insist on adding Cereal Box mascots that wield swords, I mean Sparkster is right there folks:

Mega Man has the Flame Sword, so that counts?

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd be down for BOTW stuff spread across champions, but even if I think a BOTW and "Classic" Link can coexist, having four Links would probably start to feel like overkill. I also think custom specials are still a concept with lots of potential.

In an ideal custom move revival, they could be so much more than what we got in Sm4sh, but with a roster so large, it's really not feasible for both the roster size and some characters simply not having enough material to work with. It's not that I don't think there's potential there, but if we're going to have alternate moves, I honestly do think it makes more sense for a handful of characters to simply have alternate versions. This also allows for more actual differences between the variants than just the 4 specials.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Broke: That's it! No more Links!
Woke:

 

[fogbadge]

I have a solution: cut every Link. No more Links

what's forum policy on burning heathens again

 

[HyperSomari64]

Can Mega Man even qualify as a Cereal Mascot/Scrimbo?
Yeah, there are some dark and serious moments here and there, but the Classic series is most of the times lighthearted (no pun intended), family-friendly and silly fun for all ages, in comparison of the sequels set thousands of years after (without counting the BN/SF timeline). Let's ignore Super Adventure existed.
That or Capcom not having a dedicated franchise for such demography.

 

[SPEN18]

One Link is enough for me. Let him have BotW-era and Classic versions as alts, and it's literally fine.
Then give us some real Zelda newcomers.

 

[Geno Boost]

I don't think adding a fourth Link is the solution here.

solution for the people who prefer playing as the old link if champion link is getting more stuff

 

[Kirbeh]

Can Mega Man even qualify as a Cereal Mascot/Scrimbo?
Yeah, there are some dark and serious moments here and there, but the Classic series is most of the times lighthearted (no pun intended), family-friendly and silly fun for all ages, in comparison of the sequels set thousands of years after (without counting the BN/SF timeline). Let's ignore Super Adventure existed.
That or Capcom not having a dedicated franchise for such demography.

They could maybe try bringing back Zack & Wiki as a platformer if you want that type of mascot from Capcom. Otherwise, I think you could say that Rock and Arthur technically count. Maximo too I guess?

 

[SharkLord]

If Sonic's kit was based on Sonic and the Black Knight, would it makes him a Swordie McJRPG?

Swordie, yes. McJRPG, not really. Black Knight was relaly just a hack-and-slash action game, without many RPG mechanics like stats, level ups, or party members.

That said at least some of the fanbase doesn't seem to be able to tell between swords and would likely just lump him in there regardless

Custom moves were only really a thing as modifications of the base specials. I'd much rather have a proper transforming MM Link or more BoTW moves spread across the actual champions/successors than a couple of custom specials.

To be fair Palutena had a lot of unique custom moves, if I remember correctly. There's some prescedent for a custom moves being entirely different from the default (...Assuming we get custom moves back again)

 

[Kirbeh]

Swordie, yes. McJRPG, not really. Black Knight was relaly just a hack-and-slash action game, without many RPG mechanics like stats, level ups, or party members.

That said at least some of the fanbase doesn't seem to be able to tell between swords and would likely just lump him in there regardless


To be fair Palutena had a lot of unique custom moves, if I remember correctly. There's some prescedent for a custom moves being entirely different from the default (...Assuming we get custom moves back again)

Ok, but if we gave him a few things from Sonic Chronicles?

As for custom moves, that's kind of my point. Outside of Palutena, the Miis, and to an extent Mega Man, custom moves were not unique moves or intended to be such. Making unique custom specials for every character on the roster is far more extra work than is feasible if Smash continues to be as large as it is, (even with a net loss in roster size after some cuts/newcomers.)

It's much simpler/more cost effective for a handful of characters to continue having clones/echoes or perhaps variants selected from the same slot MKX style.

Continuing with Link as the example, I don't think it's farfetched to further change our current BotW to better reflect modern Zelda while bringing back either OOT or TP Link with their old moveset. Even if you still keep Young and Toon Link on top of this, I think each has enough to be distinct from one another.

Of course, that's specifically if were focusing on differentiating the Links. Otherwise, I would prefer to see actual newcomers for Zelda. "One-and-done" argument be damned, characters like Midna, Ghirahim, the other Champions and Skull Kid are beloved characters with lots of staying power despite their limited appearances.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Ok, but if we gave him a few things from Sonic Chronicles?

Shhh, we don't that about "The Forbidden One".

 

[chocolatejr9]

Shhh, we don't that about "The Forbidden One".

Oh, I'll talk about it, but I'll likely rant about Ken Penders again, which would be off-topic.

 

[Garteam]

Hot take, but Scrimbo and anime swordfighter are both made-up nonsense words used almost exclusively to devalue characters that would otherwise be really fun and attempting to sort characters into one category or another is a largely fruitless exercise.

 

[fogbadge]

Oh, I'll talk about it, but I'll likely rant about Ken Penders again, which would be off-topic.

oh i think everyone has a rant about him

 

[Ivander]

oh i think everyone has a rant about him

Aside from the ones who didn't focus on the comics and have no in-context knowledge about the comics, like me.

Though I do have some out of context knowledge regarding him and the comics and it's........bizarre.

 

[fogbadge]

Aside from the ones who didn't focus on the comics and have no in-context knowledge about the comics, like me.

Though I do have some out of context knowledge regarding him and the comics and it's........bizarre.

I don’t read the comics either and I still have things I could say about the man