Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Speed Weed]

Episode 3 of Sakurai vs. Arino.
7:30 Kunio for Smash!
16:47 Bill Rizer for Smash!

Fantasy Zone was shown. He will arrive

 

[osby]

I think we should aim one step further and have Mario, Luigi, Peach and Daisy occupy a single slot and have exact same movesets in Smash with only their voice lines and victory/taunt animations to set them apart. After all, they all play the same in Super Mario Bros. Wonder.

 

[Gengar84]

I think we should aim one step further and have Mario, Luigi, Peach and Daisy occupy a single slot and have exact same movesets in Smash with only their voice lines and victory/taunt animations to set them apart. After all, they all play the same in Super Mario Bros. Wonder.

I don’t think anyone is arguing anything close to that and it’s a bit ridiculous to make that comparison. The Mario characters have huge legacies and have been in tons of games where there are big differences in how they play. The Fire Emblem characters are usually only in a single game and most characters have movesets based on their class than the individuals themselves. The biggest exception to this are the lords but almost every basic unit has the same moves as any in their class though their stats vary between specific units.

Let me ask you a question for anyone against this idea. If you have such a problem with units of the same class in Fire Emblem playing the same in Smash, what are your thoughts on echoes or clones in general? All the same arguments could be made against any echo to an even greater degree. Dark Samus could have had a completely unique moveset based on her appearances in Prime but she was fine as an echo with only animation differences. Beyond echoes, the Koopalings all played differently in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World and had no issues sharing a slot with Bowser Jr. despite having more attack differences than many Fire Emblem units. People argue for a Dixie echo despite sharing no moves with Diddy in the DKC games and Impa despite having three completely unique movesets they could pull from from Hyrule Warriors and Age of Calamity. I don’t understand how people are fine with that but not for characters that legitimately do play the same in their own games.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Fantasy Zone was shown. He will arrive

My top 4 most wanted all showed up in this event.

 

[Sucumbio]

Super Mario Bros. 2 gave us 4 playable characters with movesets that translated really well when implemented into Smash with Toad being the obvious omission. To this day their attributes are still largely unchanged from that NES title. It's quite amazing to see how influential smb2 was. Maybe Daisy will get fleshed out, maybe Toad finally shows up.. but in the meantime we can expect Mario will remain the "all rounder", Luigi a Mario with a higher jump and floatier air mobility, and Peach with the signature float mechanism. And turnips to boot since she also borrows that from smb2.

 

[Gengar84]

Super Mario Bros. 2 gave us 4 playable characters with movesets that translated really well when implemented into Smash with Toad being the obvious omission. To this day their attributes are still largely unchanged from that NES title. It's quite amazing to see how influential smb2 was. Maybe Daisy will get fleshed out, maybe Toad finally shows up.. but in the meantime we can expect Mario will remain the "all rounder", Luigi a Mario with a higher jump and floatier air mobility, and Peach with the signature float mechanism. And turnips to boot since she also borrows that from smb2.

Totally, that’s what I’m saying. Even from just the second game on the NES, the characters already had established differences many years before Smash 64 so it never would have made sense for them to be alts. Not to mention that the characters have completely different body types, more so than most Fire Emblem units. The biggest difference in body types of the same class in Fire Emblem I can think of are Lissa and Hector and I’d argue that even they are closer in proportion than Mario and Peach, both at least being realistic figures and not exaggerated and cartoony.

It is crazy that all the Mario characteristics came from a game that was never originally intended to even be a Mario game.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Episode 3 of Sakurai vs. Arino.
1:34 Hayabusa for Smash!
7:30 Kunio for Smash!
16:47 Bill Rizer for Smash!

Best video of these crossover yet so far! Loving it! Glad to see some Ninja Gaiden already mentioned too.

Also, since they were all shown in this video:

Kunio and Riki for Smash!
Bill Rizer and Lance Bean for Smash!

 

[Gengar84]

Best video of these crossover yet so far! Loving it! Glad to see some Ninja Gaiden already mentioned too.

Also, since they were all shown in this video:

Kunio and Riki for Smash!
Bill Rizer and Lance Bean for Smash!

I’m down for that, although some people will probably find a way to complain that Bill and Lance share a moveset. Same for Kunio and Riki lol.

 

[Sucumbio]

I’m down for that, although some people will probably find a way to complain that Bill and Lance share a moveset. Same for Kunio and Riki lol.

Like how ice climber and mario share the same jump sound! (That one did actually surprise me first playthrough lol)

 

[Gengar84]

Like how ice climber and mario share the same jump sound! (That one did actually surprise me first playthrough lol)

I can’t believe I never noticed that but you’re right.

 

[Schnee117]

I don’t think anyone is arguing anything close to that and it’s a bit ridiculous to make that comparison. The Mario characters have huge legacies and have been in tons of games where there are big differences in how they play. The Fire Emblem characters are usually only in a single game and most characters have movesets based on their class than the individuals themselves. The biggest exception to this are the lords but almost every basic unit has the same moves as any in their class though their stats vary between specific units.

Let me ask you a question for anyone against this idea. If you have such a problem with units of the same class in Fire Emblem playing the same in Smash, what are your thoughts on echoes or clones in general? All the same arguments could be made against any echo to an even greater degree. Dark Samus could have had a completely unique moveset based on her appearances in Prime but she was fine as an echo with only animation differences. Beyond echoes, the Koopalings all played differently in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World and had no issues sharing a slot with Bowser Jr. despite having more attack differences than many Fire Emblem units.

Prior clones have all just been bonuses, extras that wouldn't otherwise have gotten in and they tend to be characters that actually have business being on the roster. Echoes have had careful consideration taken into account for them, they didn't look at Marth and decide "okay we can add several other characters that can use rapiers and rapier adjacent weapons", they looked at Roy and thought "oh hey we shot down Chrom last time because he'd be kinda like this plus he's pretty popular" likewise they didn't put every shoto from Street Fighter over Ryu but they instead opted for just Ken because he's the second most well known shoto and was the original Ryu clone. And in only doing one echo with no shoehorned alts they're able to properly represent the characters and their personalities (Lucina's baffling mischaracterisation being the one exception).

This composite units idea for FE isn't making a bonus fighter, it's making a generic character that's entirely based around the weapon they use with no consideration for the individual personalities and skills they have. It's forcing in characters that have no business being on a Smash roster where making Chrom an echo of Roy is adding a popular character who is one of the main characters of his original game. Dark Samus is a popular character and if they weren't an echo then they probably wouldn't be in at all, people still wish that Dark Samus retained some of the stuff they had as an assist even.

Someone like Gaius or Lon'qu or Marcia or Seth quite simply have no reason to be coming within a few miles of a place on the Smash roster. They're side characters with little to no importance to the stories in their games. They'd only be getting in because "oh hey they fit this broad archetype" and not because of any of their own actual merits (of which they fall short by quite a large margin) on top of the personality clashes you inevitably get and have to compromise on.

If you want better FE representation then pick an individual character with actual merit to them, there's more than enough of them before we should entertain the notion of generic class movesets with watered down characters pasted onto them. Your Lyns, Tikis, Edelgards, Timerras and Black Knights are sufficient enough, maybe add a popular mage like Soren or Lysithea, we don't need to shoehorn in characters that are, to the wider audience, the equivalent to a Glup ****to when the series has multiple well beloved characters to add. If you want to represent more characters then the solution is in fact to make the Summoner's Gun from FEH an item in which you can summon a small selection of characters that can do their own thing. Someone like Reinhardt would (and should) never be considered for the Smash roster but as a summon he's perfect.

tl;dr
the issue is the idea is incredibly forced
the series has a canonical method in which you can summon characters that can be an item
the series has multiple characters who can spice up the FE roster whilst also having actual merit going for them

 

[Gengar84]

Prior clones have all just been bonuses, extras that wouldn't otherwise have gotten in and they tend to be characters that actually have business being on the roster. Echoes have had careful consideration taken into account for them, they didn't look at Marth and decide "okay we can add several other characters that can use rapiers and rapier adjacent weapons", they looked at Roy and thought "oh hey we shot down Chrom last time because he'd be kinda like this plus he's pretty popular" likewise they didn't put every shoto from Street Fighter over Ryu but they instead opted for just Ken because he's the second most well known shoto and was the original Ryu clone. And in only doing one echo with no shoehorned alts they're able to properly represent the characters and their personalities (Lucina's baffling mischaracterisation being the one exception).

This composite units idea for FE isn't making a bonus fighter, it's making a generic character that's entirely based around the weapon they use with no consideration for the individual personalities and skills they have. It's forcing in characters that have no business being on a Smash roster where making Chrom an echo of Roy is adding a popular character who is one of the main characters of his original game. Dark Samus is a popular character and if they weren't an echo then they probably wouldn't be in at all, people still wish that Dark Samus retained some of the stuff they had as an assist even.

Someone like Gaius or Lon'qu or Marcia or Seth quite simply have no reason to be coming within a few miles of a place on the Smash roster. They're side characters with little to no importance to the stories in their games. They'd only be getting in because "oh hey they fit this broad archetype" and not because of any of their own actual merits (of which they fall short by quite a large margin) on top of the personality clashes you inevitably get and have to compromise on.

If you want better FE representation then pick an individual character with actual merit to them, there's more than enough of them before we should entertain the notion of generic class movesets with watered down characters pasted onto them. Your Lyns, Tikis, Edelgards, Timerras and Black Knights are sufficient enough, maybe add a popular mage like Soren or Lysithea, we don't need to shoehorn in characters that are, to the wider audience, the equivalent to a Glup ****to when the series has multiple well beloved characters to add. If you want to represent more characters then the solution is in fact to make the Summoner's Gun from FEH an item in which you can summon a small selection of characters that can do their own thing. Someone like Reinhardt would (and should) never be considered for the Smash roster but as a summon he's perfect.

tl;dr
the issue is the idea is incredibly forced
the series has a canonical method in which you can summon characters that can be an item
the series has multiple characters who can spice up the FE roster whilst also having actual merit going for them

That’s fine if you are cool with only ever getting lords from here on but I find that personally boring. Some of the characters you mentioned like Lon’qu are among my favorites in their games so I’d be fine with that. As for forced characters that would have never made it in on their own, what are your thoughts on Iggy Koopa or any of the other Koopalings? Like I mentioned before, their personalities can be perfectly conveyed through voice lines and taunt animations without needing a completely unique moveset. The composite approach is literally how it works in every Fire Emblem game from the mainline series to the Warriors spin-offs.

I just feel that so many people here have very different ideas as to what makes an acceptable clone. Look at Hyrule Warriors compared to Fire Emblem Warriors for example. In Hyrule Warriors, a very popular request for an echo in Impa has two completely unique movesets of her own totally separate from Sheik’s. In Fire Emblem Warriors, Tharja is an exact clone of Robin and for some reason tons of people have an issue with that being carried over to Smash (and that’s just one of the many examples from that game). Dixie also plays very differently to Diddy in DKC and she’s still a popular echo request. I’m my view, alts and echoes exist precisely to give characters a chance that otherwise wouldn’t have made it so I see that as a plus.

 

[osby]

That’s fine if you are cool with only ever getting lords from here on but I find that personally boring. Some of the characters you mentioned like Lon’qu are among my favorites in their games so I’d be fine with that. As for forced characters that would have never made it in on their own, what are your thoughts on Iggy Koopa or any of the other Koopalings?

I just feel that so many people here have very different ideas as to what makes an acceptable clone. Look at Hyrule Warriors compared to Fire Emblem Warriors for example. In Hyrule Warriors, a very popular request for an echo in Impa has two completely unique movesets of her own totally separate from Sheik’s. In Fire Emblem Warriors, Tharja is an exact clone of Robin and for some reason tons of people have an issue with that being carried over to Smash (and that’s just one of the many examples from that game). Dixie also plays very differently to Diddy in DKC and she’s still a popular echo request. I’m my view, alts and echoes exist precisely to give characters a chance that otherwise wouldn’t have made it so I see that as a plus.

You know, not everyone liked how many clones Fire Emblem Heroes had. In fact, I remember that one of the main criticisms aimed towards the game. Maybe that is the reason why some people have a problem with carrying that to Smash.

Also, I think there's a lot of difference between grouping Koopalings together with Bowser Jr. and grouping unrelated characters from different games together because they share a class.

 

[Gengar84]

You know, not everyone liked how many clones Fire Emblem Heroes had. In fact, I remember that one of the main criticisms aimed towards the game. Maybe that is the reason why some people have a problem with carrying that to Smash.

Also, I think there's a lot of difference between grouping Koopalings together with Bowser Jr. and grouping unrelated characters from different games together because they share a class.

Six of one half dozen of another. I don’t see that as any worse than making Lucina a Marth echo, which they already did. They also grouped all the Heroes together from completely different games which is exactly the same scenario.

I agree about the clone complaints in Fire Emblem Warriors but it’s not like we don’t already have the same complaints in Smash with Fire Emblem. My problem in FW was there just wasn’t nearly as many unique movesets in the game as Hyrule Warriors and they also charged extra money for clones. That would be like if we got Daisy as is for one of the Fighter Pass slots. The composite Smash idea would actually give us more unique movesets and reduce the need for clones, which would actually address the most common complaint of too many variant Fire Emblem movesets in Smash.

At the end of the day though, this is all just my personal opinion and it’s not like it’s going to happen anyway. The idea is more like had they started from the beginning when Smash was a brand new series or Smash had a hard reboot, which I see as unlikely. I just feel like people are being a bit inconsistent with echo requests and complaints. I can understand not liking echoes at all and wanting every character to be unique if they have material or being cool with echoes and use them where characters have similar gameplay but I still don’t think I’ll ever understand the issue with Fire Emblem echoes or alts specifically. Oh well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[Schnee117]

That’s fine if you are cool with only ever getting lords from here on but I find that personally boring. Some of the characters you mentioned like Lon’qu are among my favorites in their games so I’d be fine with that. As for forced characters that would have never made it in on their own, what are your thoughts on Iggy Koopa or any of the other Koopalings? Like I mentioned before, their personalities can be perfectly conveyed through voice lines and taunt animations without needing a completely unique moveset. The composite approach is literally how it works in every Fire Emblem game from the mainline series to the Warriors spin-offs.

I just feel that so many people here have very different ideas as to what makes an acceptable clone. Look at Hyrule Warriors compared to Fire Emblem Warriors for example. In Hyrule Warriors, a very popular request for an echo in Impa has two completely unique movesets of her own totally separate from Sheik’s. In Fire Emblem Warriors, Tharja is an exact clone of Robin and for some reason tons of people have an issue with that being carried over to Smash (and that’s just one of the many examples from that game). Dixie also plays very differently to Diddy in DKC and she’s still a popular echo request. I’m my view, alts and echoes exist precisely to give characters a chance that otherwise wouldn’t have made it so I see that as a plus.

Ah yes my favourite Lords, Tiki and Black Knight /s

The Koopalings I take issue with actually but they're also only possible because Junior was given a Clown Car. They're an example of a character being robbed of their own unique abilities and tools for the sake of forcing in extra alts that really weren't necessary. They're also very shallow characters so it's easy to just represent them with voice lines and taunts.

FE characters tend to be a lot deeper and more varied however. You cannot fit Yunaka over any other thief character, no one else is anywhere near as hyper and quirky as she is and muting her character to graft her onto a generic thief slot is a huge disservice to her character, likewise the only thief that Gaius' lax candy loving personality fits over is Asugi and that's because Asugi is literally Not!Gaius. Compare that to someone like Sothe or Zelkov or Nina or Matthew or Volke.

One of the biggest criticisms of Warriors is the moveset clones. You had four bow users who all fought the exact same when you can make a case for two, maybe even three different takes on it (Takumi/Sakura as a Hoshidan Royal archer, Niles as a basic Archer, Anna with some merchant flair). Tharja as a Robin clone is a poor choice but that falls on having Robin not be a hybrid sword mage, similarly Celica is done dirty with Marth's moveset because she doesn't use magic. Minerva also has no business fighting like a magic axe flyer.

Dixie is a terrible example because she's a character who actually has a chance at getting in without needing to be an echo and quite frankly, I don't see her being an echo. She also actually has the merit to get in on her own right. Her being an echo request is less "I want her to be an echo" and more "If it means she gets in I'll take her as an echo" at the end of the day.

Sorry but the composite FE classes idea is utterly terrible. People want to play as characters, not functions. And that's what this class thing is, it's reducing characters to functions.

 

[Gengar84]

Ah yes my favourite Lords, Tiki and Black Knight /s

The Koopalings I take issue with actually but they're also only possible because Junior was given a Clown Car. They're an example of a character being robbed of their own unique abilities and tools for the sake of forcing in extra alts that really weren't necessary. They're also very shallow characters so it's easy to just represent them with voice lines and taunts.

FE characters tend to be a lot deeper and more varied however. You cannot fit Yunaka over any other thief character, no one else is anywhere near as hyper and quirky as she is and muting her character to graft her onto a generic thief slot is a huge disservice to her character, likewise the only thief that Gaius' lax candy loving personality fits over is Asugi and that's because Asugi is literally Not!Gaius. Compare that to someone like Sothe or Zelkov or Nina or Matthew or Volke.

One of the biggest criticisms of Warriors is the moveset clones. You had four bow users who all fought the exact same when you can make a case for two, maybe even three different takes on it (Takumi/Sakura as a Hoshidan Royal archer, Niles as a basic Archer, Anna with some merchant flair). Tharja as a Robin clone is a poor choice but that falls on having Robin not be a hybrid sword mage, similarly Celica is done dirty with Marth's moveset because she doesn't use magic. Minerva also has no business fighting like a magic axe flyer.

Dixie is a terrible example because she's a character who actually has a chance at getting in without needing to be an echo and quite frankly, I don't see her being an echo. She also actually has the merit to get in on her own right. Her being an echo request is less "I want her to be an echo" and more "If it means she gets in I'll take her as an echo" at the end of the day.

Sorry but the composite FE classes idea is utterly terrible. People want to play as characters, not functions. And that's what this class thing is, it's reducing characters to functions.

First, if Black Knight hasn’t happened yet, I don’t see him as particularly likely at this point regardless of how much I’d love to see him. Second, even if he did happen, most people bring him up as a potential Ike echo so I don’t think he’s a particularly great example for the case you’re trying to make. The Black Knight is among my most wanted first party characters for Smash so I’d be happy to see him either way.

I brought up Dixie because she’s a popular echo request around here and I disagree because I personally think she has a lot more potential than that as a unique character. I particularly want to either see a moveset focused around the animal buddies or a team mechanic with Kiddy Kong. Your statement about how people would prefer a unique Dixie but they’d gladly take something over nothing is exactly how I feel about many of my favorite Fire Emblem characters and I’d the reason I proposed the class idea in the first place.

As for personalities, I don’t know how many times I have to say it but that can be easily portrayed by voice lines and taunt animations. Look at Daisy for example. She has a completely different personality from Peach being a hyperactive tomboy but they still made her a Peach echo with almost identical gameplay.

Finally, I’m totally cool if you disagree with the idea. After all, everyone has their own opinions and that’s a good thing. What I’m less cool with is your hostility towards me and general disrespectfulness. Saying the idea is utterly terrible is going too far in my opinion and I don’t really appreciate your attitude. Let’s just agree to disagree on the idea and try to be respectful.

 

[chocolatejr9]

If by some miracle, FNAF gets a playable rep in Smash, I need Scott Cawthon to make another joke game to go alongside it:

OK SCOTT JUST RELEASED A FAKE FNAF MOVIE GAME THATS ACTUALLY JUST FREDDY IN SPACE 3?????

HUH WHAT??? pic.twitter.com/4gzCq5QGYL

— Shypley 🍉 (@shypley) October 18, 2023

This man is an EXPERT at trolling his fandom.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I’m down for that, although some people will probably find a way to complain that Bill and Lance share a moveset. Same for Kunio and Riki lol.

I doubt it. For most of the games, Lance does play identical to Bill to the point that he could be an alt for Bill and I don't think it would be an issue. Though if they want to, they can make Lance an echo of Bill and give him a few different guns. Either way would work for Lance.

Kunio and Riki, however, is a different story. Riki has always been different from Kunio, with River City Ransom being the only exception. So he will have to be separate from Kunio because having them both fight exactly the same would look kind of out of character now. Riki can still be an echo of Kunio but more in how Ken is to Ryu rather than like how Richter is to Simon.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ll just make one final statement about the Fire Emblem class idea and then I’ll drop the subject. I totally disagree that the idea is reducing characters to functions on the basis of what I like about them can be portrayed through other means than attacks. What I like about my favorite Fire Emblem characters are their personalities, backstories, and design. None of these require a particular unique moveset to portray in my opinion. Similarly to how I feel Daisy was still able to show off her unique personality despite being nearly identical to Peach in actual gameplay. Extend this a bit to alts instead of echoes (which Daisy basically could have been) and I feel that would work fine.

The main reason I proposed the idea in the first place is because there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters I really like that would never have much a shot to make it in on their own. A composite character would give a lot of people the chance to play as their favorites without needing to take up 40 something character slots. That way we could only have three or four extra movesets but could represent a large amount of characters while only having to sacrifice a small amount of faithfulness to their gameplay (less than most echoes and clones already in Smash in my opinion).

If you disagree, that’s fine too but that’s just my personal take. I’m not trying to say anyone is wrong to dislike the idea but I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions as to why I personally like the idea. I hope that clears things up.

 

[Sucumbio]

First, if Black Knight hasn’t happened yet, I don’t see him as particularly likely at this point regardless of how much I’d love to see him. Second, even if he did happen, most people bring him up as a potential Ike echo so I don’t think he’s a particularly great example for the case you’re trying to make. The Black Knight is among my most wanted first party characters for Smash so I’d be happy to see him either way.

I want him! And to be unique too. I say make a transforming character like Aegis Zelgius is the Ike-based Mythra and BK the Pyra ...

As for personalities, I don’t know how many times I have to say it but that can be easily portrayed by voice lines and taunt animations. Look at Daisy for example. She has a completely different personality from Peach being a hyperactive tomboy but they still made her a Peach echo with almost identical gameplay.

To me this is the bread and butter of the topic ... "feel". Roy feels like Roy, they all feel "right". But is that because they made a good fighting game mechanics-wise or because we really believe in our imagination that when Ike is on the battlefield in PoR he's moving like he does in Smash?

Obviously it's the former. These movesets are pulled from the air and painstakingly created to fit Smash. For me, regardless of the moves, I'll always accept the outcome and either like or dislike it because I didn't play FE until After using Marth and Ike in Brawl.

Robin is a good personal example of a character I don't care for. It's both their design and the source.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Honestly I find something really off about how Daisy feels to play in Ultimate. Because she still plays so identically to Peach she's still got that dainty feel to a lot of her moves.

Now that she's looking to be a Mario series staple going forward I really hope she gets the Falco treatment next game and gets decloned.

 

[Gengar84]

Honestly I find something really off about how Daisy feels to play in Ultimate. Because she still plays so identically to Peach she's still got that dainty feel to a lot of her moves.

Now that she's looking to be a Mario series staple going forward I really hope she gets the Falco treatment next game and gets decloned.

Yeah, I agree it’s not ideal but I’m okay with it because it was likely either that or nothing. I do fully agree that the echoes should be made more unique in subsequent games where it makes sense to differentiate them. I don’t like the thought of being stuck as an echo forever because a character was made one initially due to time constraints. I think echoes are a great way to give us more characters without too much more work as long as they are willing to revisit them later on if changes could be made.

 

[SPEN18]

Say'ri has two swords on her person but only fights with one. Lyn has also been depicted with two swords on her person (in Awakening and Warriors respectively.) It's an aesthetic choice. Say'ri is also fully capable of using a bow as she reclasses into an Assassin.

I'll reiterate, that I use examples like Marisa, Say'ri and Karla specifically because they could work as alts without any compromise to Lyn's kit. I absolutely agree that it's highly unlikely, I was never under the delusion that they would prioritize making alts out of minor characters (realistically I could see some colors based on other myrmidons at least). The argument was simply that it is feasible and would be nice additional fanservice.

If you simply dislike the idea of character alts. then I'm not looking to change your mind, so agree to disagree I suppose.

Yes we are probably approaching the agree to disagree stage.

One last point is that "technically can use a bow" does not mean "should use a bow" or "makes sense to use a bow" in their Smash moveset. Even though they technically do it in source, it's not really a canonical part of their character. Lyn's use of a bow is more sensical since she is more commonly depicted that way and her bow use belongs to a unique personal class as opposed to one of many options in a game with a free-for-all reclassing style.

 

[Kirbeh]

The FE debate is still going? I suppose I'll add one more thing as well.

If you simply dislike the idea cool, my main gripe at this point is how dismissive and seemingly in poor faith some of the arguments have been.

It genuinely feels like some comments were made on assumptions without actually reading the posts discussing the idea.

No, we don't want all Mario characters to function as a NSMB unit. No, we don't believe you can fit an Edelgard shaped peg into a Hector shaped hole.

It's very much understood that this would only work with particular cases.

The idea here simply stems from including more of people's favorites where feasible. Yes, some of the choices that could work would be quite niche in some cases, but that's part of the point.

These are characters that may not be included on their own, but in this way they can pleasantly surprise and make a few more fans happy.

If you think "x" isn't popular enough and undeserving of showing up in any means, fine I guess? Agree to disagree.

Overall I also find it a bit ironic that carefully choosing characters that can work, specifically to avoid the disconnect between character and implementation/representation is so readily dismissed as impossible given the way most units actually work in FE.

Moreover, if done correctly, it's still be better representation than Smash Roy effectively being a Sakurai OC, Chrom being Roy's echo and Lucina being wildly out of character.

For the record, despite this, Roy is actually my favorite FE character to play and I'm glad Chrom is playable too. It's odd but I'm not actually too bothered by it. I'm more glad they're here at all. Lucina's Smash personality I'm not cool with though.

Also I'm completely behind the Breidablik/summoning gem idea for more FE assists.
Slightly off topic there, but I saw it mentioned and wanted to address it.

Anyway, the sentiment is not lost on me. Most are very much against the idea regardless of how it's handled so agree to disagree.

 

[Schnee117]

First, if Black Knight hasn’t happened yet, I don’t see him as particularly likely at this point. Second, even if he did happen, most people bring him up as a potential Ike echo so I don’t think he’s a particularly great example for the case you’re trying to make. The Black Knight is among my most wanted first party characters for Smash so I’d be happy to see him either way.

Is your argument seriously "but a bunch of other people think he could be an echo"
Black Knight objectively doesn't work as an echo fighter. We had a whole thing about it fairly recently. Just because a bunch of people who are ignorant to how heavy armour works push the idea doesn't mean you actually can paste him over a fairly buff guy just because they had the same teacher and use sister swords

So yes, Black Knight is a perfectly fine example of a unique FE character that can't and shouldn't be distilled into a generic function moveset.
If you can't handle a bad idea being called bad then got off the internet lmao.

 

[Gengar84]

The FE debate is still going? I suppose I'll add one more thing as well.

If you simply dislike the idea cool, my main gripe at this point is how dismissive and seemingly in poor faith some of the arguments have been.

It genuinely feels like some comments were made on assumptions without actually reading the posts discussing the idea.

No, we don't want all Mario characters to function as a NSMB unit. No, we don't believe you can fit an Edelgard shaped peg into a Hector shaped hole.

It's very much understood that this would only work with particular cases.

The idea here simply stems from including more of people's favorites where feasible. Yes, some of the choices that could work would be quite niche in some cases, but that's part of the point.

These are characters that may not be included on their own, but in this way they can pleasantly surprise and make a few more fans happy.

If you think "x" isn't popular enough and undeserving of showing up in any means, fine I guess? Agree to disagree.

Overall I also find it a bit ironic that carefully choosing characters that can work, specifically to avoid the disconnect between character and implementation/representation is so readily dismissed as impossible given the way most units actually work in FE.

Moreover, if done correctly, it's still be better representation than Smash Roy effectively being a Sakurai OC, Chrom being Roy's echo and Lucina being wildly out of character.

For the record, despite this, Roy is actually my favorite FE character to play and I'm glad Chrom is playable too. It's odd but I'm not actually too bothered by it. I'm more glad they're here at all. Lucina's Smash personality I'm not cool with though.

Also I'm completely behind the Breidablik/summoning gem idea for more FE assists.
Slightly off topic there, but I saw it mentioned and wanted to address it.

Anyway, the sentiment is not lost on me. Most are very much against the idea regardless of how it's handled so agree to disagree.

Thank you. I think you and I are on exactly the same page here. Like I said, it’s cool that everyone has their own opinions but it’s reassuring to see that I’m not completely alone in my thinking.

 

[Sucumbio]

Wait, how is Lucina in Smash inaccurate? I haven't played her game.

 

[Schnee117]

Wait, how is Lucina in Smash inaccurate? I haven't played her game.

Marth's moveset doesn't actually fit her too well (she's canonically taught to fight by Chrom and also has his tendency to accidentally break stuff in training) and she isn't the sort of character to actively talk **** to anyone, least of all characters she looks up to like Marth

 

[Gengar84]

Wait, how is Lucina in Smash inaccurate? I haven't played her game.

She isn’t really in my opinion. Technically, being Chrom’s daughter, it might have made more sense for those two to be echoes of each other but Lucina was impersonating Marth in the early parts of the game to hide her identity so the Marth echo makes sense too.

The Smash Fire Emblem moves seem to be largely made for Smash so you could really make that case for everyone. For example, I don’t really remember Ike being a slow, heavy character in Path of Radiance but it works for him in Smash. All the more reason I’m not too particular with Fire Emblem based movesets in Smash since many already take liberties.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yes we are probably approaching the agree to disagree stage.

One last point is that "technically can use a bow" does not mean "should use a bow" or "makes sense to use a bow" in their Smash moveset. Even though they technically do it in source, it's not really a canonical part of their character. Lyn's use of a bow is more sensical since she is more commonly depicted that way and her bow use belongs to a unique personal class as opposed to one of many options in a game with a free-for-all reclassing style.

I know I said I'd drop it, but I did want to reply to you.

I will argue in favor of their use of the bow as it's not really a free for all reclass system. Much like Lyn having a unique promotion class in the form of Blade Lord that happens to use bows. The assassin class does the same. Neither Lyn nor my example characters begin with the ability to use bows, it's gained upon promotion. Much like Lyn can have a pure sword-based move set but most add the bow on top because she can use one and makes the overall kit more interesting, I don't see why it'd be out of place for characters also capable of doing so to follow suit. Moreover, with the many liberties Smash already takes, this one is very minor if you consider it to be one in the first place.

Anyway, we're not likely to convince each other, but thank you for being respectful and having well written replies. It was an enjoyable discussion even if we disagree.

 

[Gengar84]

Moving onto another SRPG, how would everyone feel about a potential Disgaea rep? The series has been on Nintendo consoles for a while and just got a new game. The characters are fun and over the top and I feel like they could have very interesting Smash movesets. Laharl and Etna are probably the top two probably the top two contenders if I had to guess. Laharl makes a lot of sense being the first main protagonist but I personally prefer Etna as a character and she could easily incorporate the series mascots (Prinnies) into her moveset so that’s a plus for her.

 

[fogbadge]

Marth's moveset doesn't actually fit her too well (she's canonically taught to fight by Chrom and also has his tendency to accidentally break stuff in training) and she isn't the sort of character to actively talk **** to anyone, least of all characters she looks up to like Marth

well this is what happens when people write fanfiction which let's face it smash is

 

[SPEN18]

I know I said I'd drop it, but I did want to reply to you.

I will argue in favor of their use of the bow as it's not really a free for all reclass system. Much like Lyn having a unique promotion class in the form of Blade Lord that happens to use bows. The assassin class does the same. Neither Lyn nor my example characters begin with the ability to use bows, it's gained upon promotion. Much like Lyn can have a pure sword-based move set but most add the bow on top because she can use one and makes the overall kit more interesting, I don't see why it'd be out of place for characters also capable of doing so to follow suit. Moreover, with the many liberties Smash already takes, this one is very minor if you consider it to be one in the first place.

Anyway, we're not likely to convince each other, but thank you for being respectful and having well written replies. It was an enjoyable discussion even if we disagree.

Yeah, I still don't think it makes sense for Marisa et al. to use a bow in Smash, but thank you as well for the points of discussion.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The Koopalings I take issue with actually but they're also only possible because Junior was given a Clown Car. They're an example of a character being robbed of their own unique abilities and tools for the sake of forcing in extra alts that really weren't necessary.

Which is better than the alternative...them not being playable at all.

I'd rather see a character shoehorned a little into being an alt costume, then just ending up a Spirit.

Marth's moveset doesn't actually fit her too well (she's canonically taught to fight by Chrom and also has his tendency to accidentally break stuff in training)

That's why Chrom should get a new moveset, and Lucina should become his Echo. While Roy becomes Marth's Echo.

That way, we have 2 Marths and 2 Chroms, instead of 4 Marths.

 

[Gengar84]

Which is better than the alternative...them not being playable at all.

I'd rather see a character shoehorned a little into being an alt costume, then just ending up a Spirit.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. I’m more than happy to make a few concessions in terms of accuracy if it means I still get to play as them. As much as I say I’d much rather have a unique Dixie and Impa, I’d still much rather see them as echoes than not at all. The only thing I’d hope in return is that the characters could be made more unique in subsequent games if they would have otherwise been on the table as their own character at that point.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Marth's moveset doesn't actually fit her too well (she's canonically taught to fight by Chrom and also has his tendency to accidentally break stuff in training) and she isn't the sort of character to actively talk **** to anyone, least of all characters she looks up to like Marth

To give more context. This is what happened when the Fire Emblem writers actually had them meet.

Lucina is a strong character, but she's not even close to a **** talker and "tough girl," or a jerk. Lucina is hopeful, polite and honorable. She also doesn't get jokes, has a wacky side and is an absolute dork in anything that isn't ruling a kingdom or combat. This is the girl who tried to give Chrom clothes that had the face of his deceased sister on them, because she thought he'd like it (her mother stopped her).

Lucina is very much a dork protagonist and Smash has literally none of that.

 

[SPEN18]

Which is better than the alternative...them not being playable at all.

I'd rather see a character shoehorned a little into being an alt costume, then just ending up a Spirit.

The other part of the alternative is a better and more personalized Bowser Jr. moveset. Which I personally think is worth more than having a different Koopa kid's mug in the same clown car.

 

[Gengar84]

To give more context. This is what happened when the Fire Emblem writers actually had them meet.

Lucina is a strong character, but she's not even close to a **** talker and "tough girl," or a jerk. Lucina is hopeful, polite and honorable. She also doesn't get jokes, has a wacky side and is an absolute dork in anything that isn't ruling a kingdom or combat. This is the girl who tried to give Chrom clothes that had the face of his deceased sister on them, because she thought he'd like it (her mother stopped her).

Lucina is very much a dork protagonist and Smash has literally none of that.

Yeah, good point about the personality inaccuracy. I was speaking more from a moveset perspective but Smash did kind of mess up in the personality department. I feel like they didn’t quite get Shulk right either. He’s a lot more goofy in Smash than he is in Xenoblade.

 

[fogbadge]

To give more context. This is what happened when the Fire Emblem writers actually had them meet.

Lucina is a strong character, but she's not even close to a **** talker and "tough girl," or a jerk. Lucina is hopeful, polite and honorable. She also doesn't get jokes, has a wacky side and is an absolute dork in anything that isn't ruling a kingdom or combat. This is the girl who tried to give Chrom clothes that had the face of his deceased sister on them, because she thought he'd like it (her mother stopped her).

Lucina is very much a dork protagonist and Smash has literally none of that.

man I really should play awakening. I suppose they’ll port it eventually

 

[Gengar84]

man I really should play awakening. I suppose they’ll port it eventually

It was very good in my opinion. My favorites are still Ike’s games but Awakening and Three Houses aren’t too far behind.