Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Opossum]

Since the release of the first Super Smash Bros. game, there have been rumors that Meowth would be one of the characters along with others who eventually came to future Super Smash Bros. games as fighters. It's been so many years and they still didn't put Meowth as a newcomer. If they put him in it would make two players one with Pikachu and the other with Meowth imagine Ash's Pikachu and Team Rocket's Meowth fighting each other a lot more and I'm writing this for those who wanted to see more rivalry between these two. So what I hope at least is that they bring Meowth as a newcomer in the next Super Smash Bros. game.

Meowth was never planned to be playable. This stems from a random, unsourced Smash Wiki edit in the late 00s that claimed Meowth, Peach, and Pit were planned for Smash 64.

They weren't. The only characters we know for a fact were planned for 64 that didn't make the cut were Bowser, King Dedede, Mewtwo, Marth, and Ayumi Tachibana.

Meowth's entire Smash fan base is built on a random lie that caught on, and it's equal parts funny and sad.

 

[Stratos]

If Ayumi Tachibana comes as a newcomer in the next Super Smash Bros. game, I'd like to see what moves they think of putting her in, like all of us.

 

[Laniv]

Meowth was never planned to be playable. This stems from a random, unsourced Smash Wiki edit in the late 00s that claimed Meowth, Peach, and Pit were planned for Smash 64.

They weren't. The only characters we know for a fact were planned for 64 that didn't make the cut were Bowser, King Dedede, Mewtwo, Marth, and Ayumi Tachibana.

Meowth's entire Smash fan base is built on a random lie that caught on, and it's equal parts funny and sad.

Wasn't Ayumi planned for Melee though?

 

[Ivander]

Smash fans don't wanna get that just because Pichu is depicted in Smash as a clone that hurts itself doesn't mean Pichu wasn't heavily marketed. Hell Sakurai probably wouldn't get the idea in the first place to make Pichu a Pikachu clone if it wasn't.

No one denies Pichu being heavily marketed and being an easy Pikachu clone to make.

That said, Scizor was absolutely marketed during the Johto era alongside Steelix to showcase the new Steel type and while Steel is aplenty nowadays, Scizor has remained as one of the most popular Johto Pokemon today, so it's not surprising that some people think Scizor would be a good pick for Smash Bros.

 

[Opossum]

Wasn't Ayumi planned for Melee though?

Yep, seems I got my wires crossed there lmao.

 

[Ivander]

Wasn't Ayumi "considered" for Smash Bros. Melee, not "planned"? I'm pretty sure that's Sakurai said when Sugita asked him about Ayumi.

 

[Opossum]

Wasn't Ayumi "considered" for Smash Bros. Melee, not "planned"? I'm pretty sure that's Sakurai said when Sugita asked him about Ayumi.

The distinction between planned and considered is so negligible in the context of characters who ultimately didn't make it and it's genuinely baffling that so many in the community care about the rather useless distinction.

The end result is the same.

 

[fogbadge]

Meowth's entire Smash fan base is built on a random lie that caught on, and it's equal parts funny and sad.

and his anime appearance

 

[Opossum]

and his anime appearance

The anime gave him a claim to legitimacy, but the level of support he had doesn't happen if plausibility was out the window. Without that wiki edit being touted as fact, the Meowth support base would have been infinitely smaller. That's what I was getting at.

 

[Sucumbio]

Which is why I love coming here because there's actual Meowth enthusiasm!

 

[Gengar84]

Which is why I love coming here because there's actual Meowth enthusiasm!

Meowth, that’s right!

 

[Ivander]

The distinction between planned and considered is so negligible in the context of characters who ultimately didn't make it and it's genuinely baffling that so many in the community care about the rather useless distinction.

The end result is the same.

There is in fact a notable distinction. Planned implies that they wanted to add them and they were going to be developed, but as development went on and on, they couldn't put them in for reasons like time, money, etc. Considered implies that they looked at them among other characters, thought about what they could do, then decided another character over them, meaning they were not part of development.
Much like how when Sakurai was looking for a Retro rep, he looked at Ice Climbers, Mach Rider, Balloon Fighter and Urban Fighter, looked and thought about each one, then chose Ice Climbers over the other 3, so Ice Climbers was planned and finished and the other 3 were considered. Assuming that wasn't speculation passed around by people who didn't know better.

 

[fogbadge]

The anime gave him a claim to legitimacy, but the level of support he had doesn't happen if plausibility was out the window. Without that wiki edit being touted as fact, the Meowth support base would have been infinitely smaller. That's what I was getting at.

i see

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

snip

I’ve always longed for a Smash crossover art by Yoji Shinkawa personally:

Though considering he jumped ship with Kojima and Konami is making MGSΔ without the both of them, it doesn’t seem likely we ever will.

 

[Stratos]

With the huge success of The Super Mario Bros Movie, many are expecting a sequel or a Luigi's Mansion movie or a Donkey Kong movie or a The Legend of Zelda movie. Of course for a The Legend of Zelda movie I can't decide if I'd like it better as an animation or live action. As for a Metroid movie, I sure would like it as live action.

 

[Sucumbio]

With the huge success of The Super Mario Bros Movie, many are expecting a sequel or a Luigi's Mansion movie or a Donkey Kong movie or a The Legend of Zelda movie. Of course for a The Legend of Zelda movie I can't decide if I'd like it better as an animation or live action. As for a Metroid movie, I sure would like it as live action.

I think the director and cinematography team from Stark Trek Beyond would make a compelling real world esque Metroid Universe.

 

[fogbadge]

I think the director and cinematography team from Stark Trek Beyond would make a compelling real world esque Metroid Universe.

by making it boring?

 

[Perkilator]

Which is why I love coming here because there's actual Meowth enthusiasm!

I know I’ve said this a thousand times but Meowth should’ve been one of the OG12 instead of Puff

 

[Idon]

I know I’ve said this a thousand times but Meowth should’ve been one of the OG12 instead of Puff

Many things "should" have been over Puff, it just shows how compromising with half-characters has been in the series's DNA since its beginning.

 

[FazDude]

Recently, I’ve been thinking about having a Team Rocket fighter team more along the lines of the Duck Hunt Duo - That’s probably what I’d do with Meowth to set him apart from the other Pokemon.

 

[Stratos]

Black Shadow from F-Zero series could be added as a newcomer and maybe as echo of Captain Falcon.

 

[Sucumbio]

by making it boring?

I felt they basically had to have played Metroid Prime Echoes and drew inspiration.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Thing about pichu is that while everyone seems to agree he’s a likely cut his inclusion does make sense. be it from a Nintendo all stars perspective or a celebration of gaming one. He does fit the general criteria we apply to Pokemon we think are likely

Yeah honestly people just seems to hate Pichu because he's a clone, but objectively he's the one from gen 2 that make the most sense. The only others that I could see fit the general Pokemon criteria from gen 2 would be Togepi, Celebi and Suicune, but Togepi would probably be the hardest to make a moveset for, arguably Celebi too and Suicune being a very big quadrupedal would probably be hard to work with too (especially with the Gamecube limitations).

Any other picks like Scizor or Tyrannitar are just way too random to be in Smash in the first place. Just because Scizor had a few merch doesn't mean that he's that important for Gen 2 in the grand scheme of thing.

 

[Opossum]

Yeah honestly people just seems to hate Pichu because he's a clone, but objectively he's the one from gen 2 that make the most sense. The only others that I could see fit the general Pokemon criteria from gen 2 would be Togepi, Celebi and Suicune, but Togepi would probably be the hardest to make a moveset for, arguably Celebi too and Suicune being a very big quadrupedal would probably be hard to work with too (especially with the Gamecube limitations).

Any other picks like Scizor or Tyrannitar are just way too random to be in Smash in the first place. Just because Scizor had a few merch doesn't mean that he's that important for Gen 2 in the grand scheme of thing.

I would argue there is one other Gen II Pokémon that also makes sense, but it's one that doesn't get discussed a lot: Heracross.

It had major anime presence by being one of Ash's main bruisers throughout Johto. It, like Pichu, also helps represent a new mechanic from Johto (Headbutt trees vs Breeding). It calls back to the series's roots by being a Bug/Fighting type based on a rhinoceros beetle (ignore that its name refers to the Hercules beetle), as the series was inspired by bug catching and bug fighting, in which rhinoceros beetles are popular. And it was (and honestly still is) a popular fan favorite, to boot.

It doesn't make much sense to add it in now, but it could have back then. But hey, at least he's fun to play as in Crusade.

 

[SPEN18]

All I have to say about Heracross is that Ash Sleep-Talk-Megahorn-ing that Darkrai should have worked and I'm still upset that it didn't

 

[Perkilator]

All I have to say about Heracross is that Ash Sleep-Talk-Megahorn-ing that Darkrai should have worked and I'm still upset that it didn't

You mean the Darkrai used by Tobias? God, what an arse-hat of a Trainer.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I would argue there is one other Gen II Pokémon that also makes sense, but it's one that doesn't get discussed a lot: Heracross.

It had major anime presence by being one of Ash's main bruisers throughout Johto. It, like Pichu, also helps represent a new mechanic from Johto (Headbutt trees vs Breeding). It calls back to the series's roots by being a Bug/Fighting type based on a rhinoceros beetle (ignore that its name refers to the Hercules beetle), as the series was inspired by bug catching and bug fighting, in which rhinoceros beetles are popular. And it was (and honestly still is) a popular fan favorite, to boot.

It doesn't make much sense to add it in now, but it could have back then. But hey, at least he's fun to play as in Crusade.

My question is... Would you have ever thought of Heracross without Crusade?

 

[Laniv]

Yeah honestly people just seems to hate Pichu because he's a clone, but objectively he's the one from gen 2 that make the most sense. The only others that I could see fit the general Pokemon criteria from gen 2 would be Togepi, Celebi and Suicune, but Togepi would probably be the hardest to make a moveset for, arguably Celebi too and Suicune being a very big quadrupedal would probably be hard to work with too (especially with the Gamecube limitations).

Any other picks like Scizor or Tyrannitar are just way too random to be in Smash in the first place. Just because Scizor had a few merch doesn't mean that he's that important for Gen 2 in the grand scheme of thing.

Ehh... I'd argue there's another Gen II Pokemon that could work. A Pokemon who sees (well, saw), plenty of exposure through the anime (the third most appearing Pokemon, behind Pikachu and Meowth), and is still moderately popular, even if among a casual audience. Heck, it even enjoyed a stint in Ubers for a bit!

It may have been a mere summon in previous Smash games, but it could still be a suitable Gen II rep, because that's the way it is:

It's time for Wobbuffet to hit back.

 

[SPEN18]

You mean the Darkrai used by Tobias?

That's the one.

I guess the other thing I can say about Heracross, at the risk of sounding like a cranky oldie, is that it is yet another oldgen mon that was very well-designed in terms of both aesthetics and gameplay (and in terms of those two fitting together thematically), and was quite competitively relevant, but now has trouble standing out due to the insane power creep and dexsize glut of the newer gens.

Also his Mega form could've looked cooler.

 

[Opossum]

My question is... Would you have ever thought of Heracross without Crusade?

I mean personally? Yeah, had I been asked what Johto Pokémon would make sense. It and Sudowoodo would be two that would immediately spring to mind, though Sudowoodo I would put a bit lower (if only because its whole gimmick is more being passive than an active combatant).

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Ehh... I'd argue there's another Gen II Pokemon that could work. A Pokemon who sees (well, saw), plenty of exposure through the anime (the third most appearing Pokemon, behind Pikachu and Meowth), and is still moderately popular, even if among a casual audience. Heck, it even enjoyed a stint in Ubers for a bit!

It may have been a mere summon in previous Smash games, but it could still be a suitable Gen II rep, because that's the way it is:

View attachment 376353

It's time for Wobbuffet to hit back.

Yeah I almost add Wobbufet in my post, but if I recall correctly he only became popular later. Iirc it was with the Gen 4 anime that he starts to become more prominent as a joke Pokémon.

Also I think he suffer the same problem as Togepi which would be that he could be hard to make a moveset for him.

 

[SPEN18]

Also maybe I am chronically doomed to underrate Pichu, but I feel like it's fallen off pretty hard outside of a brief resurgence in the HGSS era.

And I'd hesitate pretty hard on Mystery-Gift-locked mons, barring something like uber-level popularity and marketing.

 

[Opossum]

That's the one.

I guess the other thing I can say about Heracross, at the risk of sounding like a cranky oldie, is that it is yet another oldgen mon that was very well-designed in terms of both aesthetics and gameplay (and in terms of those two fitting together thematically), and was quite competitively relevant, but now has trouble standing out due to the insane power creep and dexsize glut of the newer gens.

Also his Mega form could've looked cooler.

For what it's worth it's withstood powercreep better than most of its peers at least. Instead of plummeting to the depths of NU and PU, or even Untiered, Heracross has never fallen below RU. All in all, that's pretty good for a Johto Pokémon.

That and despite being goofy looking, at least its Mega actually is a Hercules beetle like its name would suggest lmao.

 

[dream1ng]

Well, one option that aligned with a lot of what seems to matter, insofar as it was used fairly prominently in pre-release promotion of Gen II, appearing in the short preceding the first movie, showing up regularly in the anime before G/S came out given it was owned by one of the party members, and received decent attention as the fabled but incorrectly named "Pikablu", was Marill.

It has significantly receded in attention since, but Marill was pretty prominent in the early days of Gen II, and would be a feasible character in Smash. Potentially could reuse some Pikachu assets, but obviously not as heavily as Pichu. Of course I don't think Marill would've been the most exciting option, but... it was a prominent, promoted, pre-release Pokemon.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Potentially could reuse some Pikachu assets

If anything it'd be Jigglypuff's animations it'd have to reuse. We'd just have to give it a proper Up-B.

 

[dream1ng]

If anything it'd be Jigglypuff's animations it'd have to reuse. We'd just have to give it a proper Up-B.

Marill is more spherical than Pikachu (even Melee-era fat Pikachu), but in terms of character rigging, would lean much closer to Pikachu than Jigglypuff.

Edit: Actually Marill's composition could be Frankenstein'd from a few different characters, in terms of movement. Not that the character would be a derivative/clone, that wasn't the point of my post. Just that there were a few aspects of existing characters off which Marill could draw.

 

[Sucumbio]

For Johto I really love Chikorita and would enjoy using them.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Marill is more spherical than Pikachu (even Melee-era fat Pikachu), but in terms of character rigging, would lean much closer to Pikachu than Jigglypuff.

Edit: Actually Marill's composition could be Frankenstein'd from a few different characters, in terms of movement. Not that the character would be a derivative/clone, that wasn't the point of my post. Just that there were a few aspects of existing characters off which Marill could draw.

Actually there is a mod on Gamebanana that replaces Jigg's model with Marill.

This screenshot looks fine, but the main render...

...yeah its hands aren't supposed to do that

 

[SPEN18]

For what it's worth it's withstood powercreep better than most of its peers at least. Instead of plummeting to the depths of NU and PU, or even Untiered, Heracross has never fallen below RU. All in all, that's pretty good for a Johto Pokémon.

Fair enough. I don't even know what could be done about the powercreep and dex glut anymore. You'd have to do wholesale buffs to base stats and movepools, possibly introduce some new abilities for certain mons; all of that has taken place before in smaller doses but I'm talking on a much more widespread and intelligently targeted scale. Sadly I don't think GF cares enough about competitive game balance to do something like this.

To be clear, I don't think we should try to balance 1000+ different mons so that everything is competitively viable. Beyond the obvious feasibility issues, it is perfectly fine for some mons to be purposefully designed to be weaker in combat and have other things like cuteness, personality, lore, unique obtaining methods, gameplay gimmicks or other niche abilities and qualities to stand out. But the ones purposefully designed to be good in combat I think ideally should be, well, good in combat. And there should be a relatively even distribution of competitively viable choices throughout the gens.

 

[dream1ng]

Actually there is a mod on Gamebanana that replaces Jigg's model with Marill.

This screenshot looks fine, but the main render...

...yeah its hands aren't supposed to do that

Yeah in terms of the shape of the body, Marill is closer to Jigglypuff. But in terms of how the character actually functions, it'd move more closely to Pikachu, both being little rodent guys. The model might look closer to Jigglypuff but I think the rigging would take more from Pikachu (skeleton compacted, of course). I suppose in a way it's somewhere between the two.

Marill has less neck articulation than Chu, it basically being a ball, but there are some movement elements I think it could've lifted from a Melee-era Pikachu, back before he went to the chiropractor and the dietician and became that much more diverged.

I'm not saying they'd be clones or anything. My post wasn't really about who Marill could best take from, that was just an aside.