Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Please don't try to psychoanalyze me without directly replying to me. I know you are coming from a good place here but it feels disrespectful.

Yeah, people can be crappy. They are crappy on this site, they are crappy in real life. Some people for example threatened others to choke and in order to avoid any repercussions played it off as a joke. Other people defended out and out white supremacists on this site because they agreed with their Smash beliefs. Has it gotten better with time? Yes. This community has gotten much better at handling issues of race and sexuality for example. I still remember the times when people would make awful racist jokes towards people wanting any PoC representation in Smash.

This site has so much potential to be a safe space to discuss all the fun elements of Smash. So when I see parts of this site backsliding, of course I will be upset. Most roster cuts discussion ends up circling back to the same few users complaining about EiH or the state of the Smash roster. It's already exhausting to have to hear people while about insert third party here, insert clone character here, Corrin, and Incineroar "stealing" the spot of their most wanted or a "more deserving" character. It's even less fun when they shut down any actually fun discussion to have their cuts discussion over and over again. But it is worse when you have the history of bigotry tolerated by the "Nintendo All Star" crowd. I would rather stamp out that kind of thought now than let it become a safe haven for racists and homophobes again. Same thing goes for when individuals that have a history of making violent or sexist remarks. I will keep an eye on what they say to make sure they do not potentially hurt anyone else.

Obviously, I am just one person. But if I can push hard enough back against there being any potential breeding ground for toxicity, it can be enough to make the site more palatable when the next game is announced. Every little bit counts. If that means I have to be a little "pessimistic" when looking at cuts discussion or "assuming the worst" from people who have had transgressions in the past, so be it.


I would rather push this narrative down as often as possible than risk it being a breeding ground for the hurtful things I have seen it protect last time. The pro cuts, anti third party vocal minority protected people making racist jokes towards people wanting PoC in smash. They defended out and out racists because they wrote a think piece on Source Gaming. The only reason no "Nintendo All Star elitists" popped up yet is just because of timing. I have seen the same kinds of voices pop up pretty much every time this thread ends up inevitably circling back to cuts discussion. The same vocal minority pushing for a hard reboot and thanos snapping the entire roster to "purify" it and hopefully give them "their" Smash Ultimate.

I want the best for this community, and I will call out ideas and posts that could drag us back a decade. Not everyone is going to give life to those toxic elements, obviously. But enough discussion of them will make it commonplace enough that the worst aspects of the community will have a safe haven back. Lying back and doing nothing is only going to risk letting these elements become more entrenched and make it harder to call out those doing harmful things in the future. I don't want people who make sexist or racist remarks to get a free pass. I don't want those that threaten others with violence think their actions have been forgotten.

As I have always said, it is "some people". Not everyone, but some. Enough that it could lead to the same regrettable tendencies we saw post Smash 4. I don't want to go back to an era where biphobic attacks on Corrin or people make racist jokes towards people asking for our first PoC character in Smash. As much as people are crappy, most people aren't. Most people mean well and I want what's best for everyone. I believe that calling out the toxic tendencies of the past is the best method to prevent them from gaining a foothold in the future. The fact that I still see "some people" regularly have that sort of mindset or still whine about Ultimate 5 years later only reinforces that. Not everyone, but enough that it needs to be called out.

I apologize for not addressing you directly. I’ve been wanting to say something for a while now. I do generally agree with you that people should be respectful of each other. Whenever I hear anyone utter the term “woke”, I take that as a signal that nothing they are going to say is worth listening to. As a progressive, I also fully support diversity in gaming as well as everything else. The problem I’m seeing here is that you seem to assume people are making arguments out of bigotry when they aren’t. I fully believe you that there have been people here in the past that are hateful and I’ll always call that out when I see it. Almost everything I’ve seen here just seems like someone’s honest opinions on a particular character and not made out any kind of prejudice.

For example, fogbadge mentioned that he didn’t care for Bayonetta’s design or personality and you called him out as sexist out of nowhere. I don’t think disliking one character automatically makes you sexist. To be fair, Bayonetta has some weird design choices that might not appeal to everyone. Until someone makes a habit of complaining of every female character, I wouldn’t rush to judgement claiming sexism. I see that as quite a bit different than someone crying online that they made the Little Mermaid black or that the main character of the latest Predator movie (Prey) was a woman. Both of those, I’m fully with you on most likely coming from a place of prejudice. If I hear anything like that sentiment in a movie review, I close out of the video because I know they aren’t worth listening to.

Again, I apologize for any disrespect I may have implied. This is supposed to be a place for harmless discussion on what we’d love to see in Smash. I think the people here are generally good people and deserve the benefit of the doubt before rushing to judgement and labeling them. Let’s all just try to get along and have fun.

 

[fogbadge]

I apologize for not addressing you directly. I’ve been wanting to say something for a while now. I do generally agree with you that people should be respectful of each other. Whenever I hear anyone utter the term “woke”, I take that as a signal that nothing they are going to say is worth listening to. As a progressive, I also fully support diversity in gaming as well as everything else. The problem I’m seeing here is that you seem to assume people are making arguments out of bigotry when they aren’t. I fully believe you that there have been people here in the past that are hateful and I’ll always call that out when I see it. Almost everything I’ve seen here just seems like someone’s honest opinions on a particular character and not made out any kind of prejudice.

For example, fogbadge mentioned that he didn’t care for Bayonetta’s design or personality and you called him out as sexist out of nowhere. I don’t think disliking one character automatically makes you sexist. To be fair, Bayonetta has some weird design choices that might not appeal to everyone. Until someone makes a habit of complaining of every female character, I wouldn’t rush to judgement claiming sexism. I see that as quite a bit different than someone crying online that they made the Little Mermaid black or that the main character of the latest Predator movie (Prey) was a woman. Both of those, I’m fully with you on most likely coming from a place of prejudice. If I hear anything like that sentiment in a movie review, I close out of the video because I know they aren’t worth listening to.

Again, I apologize for any disrespect I may have implied. This is supposed to be a place for harmless discussion on what we’d love to see in Smash. I think the people here are generally good people and deserve the benefit of the doubt before rushing to judgement and labeling them. Let’s all just try to get along and have fun.

thank you for that gengar

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think a change of subject may be what the thread needs. What needed to be said was said and I don't see further conversation being productive.

How about Dr. Mario? People have been saying that a stage would be cool. How would you design a Dr. Mario stage?

 

[Soy_Man]

Anyways, back to Joker. Not that I care about Persona 5, but I need Joker to stay, simply because he's sick as hell. It is my life's mission to become good with Joker Persona 5, which ain't happening anytime soon. So he has to return in the next game. For me.

Also I don't see why we can't have a Persona character and an SMT character. Both series' have completely distinct identities and history, so why do they have to compete for representation?

 

[HyperSomari64]

How about Dr. Mario? People have been saying that a stage would be cool. How would you design a Dr. Mario stage?

What about cutting Dr. Mario, but adding the Dr. Mario stage anyways?

 

[FazDude]

I think a change of subject may be what the thread needs. What needed to be said was said and I don't see further conversation being productive.

How about Dr. Mario? People have been saying that a stage would be cool. How would you design a Dr. Mario stage?

dr mario is always a great conversation topic

Anyway, I think the perfect Dr. Mario stage is something like what we got in Smash Remix, maybe with a checkerboard background rather than a standard doctor's office.

I know people have had the idea of the stage taking place inside of a Dr. Mario game, but I'm not really a fan of that idea - Feels too claustraphobic and against the gameplay of Smash.

(Speaking of puzzle game stages, I have the same feelings about a Tetris stage - I'd prefer something involving using giant floating Tetrominos as platforms, kinda like Poke Floats.)

 

[Gengar84]

I think a change of subject may be what the thread needs. What needed to be said was said and I don't see further conversation being productive.

How about Dr. Mario? People have been saying that a stage would be cool. How would you design a Dr. Mario stage?

I might like to see something similar to my idea for a TETRIS stage. Basically, you are fighting inside an active game of Dr. Mario where the falling pills could act as platforms and maybe even crush you if they land in place with you under them. It would be hard to score horizontal KO’s early on in the stage because it would start with tall, relatively narrow walls for the borders on each side. As the pills build up, it would be easier and easier to KO since you’d be fighting on increasingly elevated platforms. I made a TETRIS version of this idea in Ultimate’s Stage Builder and I thought it was a lot of fun.

 

[fogbadge]

I think a change of subject may be what the thread needs. What needed to be said was said and I don't see further conversation being productive.

How about Dr. Mario? People have been saying that a stage would be cool. How would you design a Dr. Mario stage?

well I’d probably try and stage it inside one of the bottles with the platforms made of pills

 

[HyperSomari64]

(Speaking of puzzle game stages, I have the same feelings about a Tetris stage - I'd prefer something involving using giant floating Tetrominos as platforms, kinda like Poke Floats.)

^^^This
(Mixed with Puyo Puyo to make a perfect crossover stage)

 

[Speed Weed]

I'll just add to the conversation slightly and say that while I do understand feeling burned by this community's lengthy and well-documented history of bigotry and not wanting that to happen again, and I can especially understand getting very emotional with these matters (lord knows it's happened to me many times), big leaps were being made that IMO were starting to do more harm than good. It's important to draw a line somewhere.

Anyway change of topic

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Joe Hoops for Smash 6. Discuss

 

[HyperSomari64]

I'll just add to the conversation slightly and say that while I do understand feeling burned by this community's lengthy and well-documented history of bigotry and not wanting that to happen again, and I can especially understand getting very emotional with these matters (lord knows it's happened to me many times), big leaps were being made that IMO were starting to do more harm than good. It's important to draw a line somewhere.

Anyway change of topic

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Joe Hoops for Smash 6. Discuss

Punch-Out!! Featuring Mr. Dream moment
(A little weird that Mr. Dream isn't a spirit in Smash, or even appearing in the Wii game)

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Eh, I don't think Mr Dream was anyone's favourite character. Just a placeholder for Mike Tyson. I'd expect the Bruiser twins to come back before he did.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Is this vocal minority in the room with us right now?

Yes, because joking about people calling out parts of the community that are/have protected literal white supremacists, sexists, homophobes, or people who attempted to normalize abusers in the community is a good idea.

Do you realize how tone deaf you are? Do you want people who support bigotry to have a home in this community? Because joking about any attempt to stamp them out is how you get that. Do you want people trying to rehabilitate people who abused minors? Or how about people spewing racist things during the biggest civil rights moment in this century? Or how about people literally going to bat for open white supremacists? I have seen all of that on this very site, as recently as this year. If you foster that environment, you will let bigotry take root. You need to rip out the roots if you want to fix the problem.

Now circle that back to Smash. People in the past defended an out and out white supremacist because he wrote a think piece they liked on Source Gaming. I do not want to even risk for one second that kind of person being enshrined and protected in the community again just because a vocal minority of Smash fans like the way they did not like Cloud Strife. It's not like its a one off thing either. I have seen people protect individuals saying horribly racist things about who our first PoC character in Smash was just because they liked their Smash opinions. I have seen people get cheers for saying homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin and Byleth.

Do you genuinely want these kinds of people to feel comfortable in our community? Do you want the kind of people who say racist, sexist, homophobic things to be celebrated on here? Or do you want to do the right thing and take a stand against it? Because joking about people calling out a vocal minority that has historically protected white supremacists is a great way to make sure you enable the worst aspects of the community. If you want to deal with the issues of bigotry and hatred, you have do whatever it takes to make it have no home here.

I'm sorry but it's absolutely abhorrent that you're lumping people who talk about cuts with actual ****ing bigots and alt right neonazis.

Talking about cuts, something that has been heavily hinted as an inevitability by Sakurai himself, is not something that should even be in near same conversation as folks like known MAGA-maniac and Actual Neonazi SmashChu/Spoogeymonkey or whatever he goes by now, who you alluded to in this post. Especially when, for what it's worth, a lot of people talking about cuts are some of the more inclusive people on the site.

It's incredibly easy to tell when these people use regressive dogwhistles. That's when you report them for site policy violations, as I've done many times. But to even say that enough of them push for cuts as to make cut talk as a whole an issue is a massive overreaction.

You keep saying it's not everyone, but at the same time you're implying a strong enough correlation that you felt the need to bring it up anyway. First Party Puritanism is unfortunately correlated with these types of people, yes (it's a well known thing that fascists like to appeal to the nostalgia of bygone days...look at the unfortunate number of people still flying the Confederate flag). But even if you wanted to make a direct point of causation there, there would still be a massive difference between discussing third party cuts and being a first party puritan.

It's just a big and uncomfortable leap.

I would put down whatever discussion topic is out there if there were literal nazis being protected by it. There being an open white supremacist is bad enough. You are missing the important detail that people defended him. Even when he made his profile picture a literal white supremacist, people defended him and his character because they liked the things he was saying about Smash. Think of that for a second. People are literally protecting an out and out nazi...because they like the fact he hates Cloud Strife. It doesn't matter how many awful dogwhistles he throws out: wanting less Fire Emblem and Third Parties is enough for people to be ride or die for someone like that.

As much as I would like just reporting offensive things to be enough, it clearly isn't. I have seen people get away with saying racist things during the George Floyd protests on this site. It doesn't matter that I reported it; they get to stick around. Or people defending outed abusers because they think they can be "rehabilitated" or "learned their lesson" and then immediately pivot towards victim blaming. Reporting just isnt enough, you need to actively call out and stamp out action like that when possible.

I strongly regret not doing enough to call it out during the post Smash 4 environment. I could have stuck around and done more: instead I peaced out and merely browsed. I could have and should have done more to call out the bigotry bubbling under the surface. One voice might not have been enough, but stamping that kind of discussion out early maybe could have had a positive effect on the site broadly. By the time I got back, people like SmashChu were still held up strongly. I saw quite a few homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin. Someone said such a racist comment towards what our first PoC character was in Smash, I genuinely felt a little sick to my stomach. The amount of casual bigotry that managed to seep into casual discussion then is disgusting.

Fast forward to today. I already see the warning signs for someone as reprehensible as the Nazi getting a foothold here. Right after Smash 4, I saw a bunch of the same warning signs. People disheartened with Smash speculation because it did not go "their way". There were targets for ridicule that people singled out quickly: back then it was mainly Cloud and Corrin. Disenfranchised people latched onto a literal Nazi because they liked what he was saying. Nowadays, its slightly different but I see the same warning signs on here. Disenfranchised people are upset Ultimate wasn't their Smash Ultimate. The othered characters tend to be clones, third parties broadly, Corrin, and Incineroar. It sickens me to imagine, but I can easily see someone with toxic beliefs rising up and getting protected today too. I do not want to risk anyone like that rising up. I don't ever want to risk someone like that being able to get a foothold in the Smash community, or worse radicalize parts of it, again.

Would I prefer to do nothing? It would be so much easier to sit back, but no I do not have that luxury. There is too much of a chance of someone like that coming in and poisoning the community with their vile beliefs. I saw what happened once when it got normalized and not enough was done, I do not want to risk it happening again. Obviously, not every person in this community is a bigot. Most people in this community are not bigots. The vast majoirty of the community are not bigots. But the scars are there. Smash speculation has only gotten more tribal as people desperately cling to something to promote their views on what the next game should be as we are in limbo. I worry that should a SmashChu like figure come up again, it would be even more volatile for the community. I can't risk something like that happening again and have the clock turned back to 2017. If that means coming down on some parts of speculation harder, so be it. I'd rather not have to rain on cuts discussion. But then I remember that is how the Nazi got his foothold in the community: with a think peace on who should be cut to have a "return to form". There was not enough push back to that mentality last time that it enabled him to get a foothold in the community. If people were willing to accept and defend an open nazi like that last time, I worry that it can happen again but worse this time.

 

[Perkilator]

Anyways, for the sake of changing subjects, here’s my hypothetical scenario where Leon was in Brawl instead of Snake:

Spoiler

Leon would be voiced by Paul Mercier in all regions.

Intro: Leon walks onto the stage and reloads his handgun.

Stance/Idle 1: Leon holds his handgun up to his face.
Idle 2: Leon looks carefully behind himself.
Idle 3: Leon pushes his hair back.

Notable Palette Swaps:

1. Jacket (default)
2. No jacket
3. Ada Wong (red, no jacket)
4. Ashley Graham (orange, no jacket)
5. Special 1 (R.P.D. uniform)
6. Special 2 (gangster outfit)

Walk: His jog from RE4.
Dash: His run from RE4.
Damage: His damage animation from RE4. When he’s at 50% or higher, his animations are in caution mode. When he’s at 100% or higher, his animations are in danger mode.
Jump: His jump from RE4.
Crouch: Leon’s crouch from RE4 whenever he dodges something.

Normal Attacks
Jab: Leon kicks twice, followed by rapid knife slashing.
Forward+A: Leon jabs forward with his hunting knife.
Up+A: An uppercut with Leon’s open hand.
Down+A: A sweep kick in front of Leon.
Dash Attack: A slide on the ground.
Edge Attack: Leon slashes with his knife, which can trip opponents, before climbing back up.
Get-Up Attack: A 360 sweep kick along the ground.

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: A 360 spinning kick.
Air Forward+A: A flying two-legged kick that deals more damage at Leon’s foot.
Air Back + A: A backflip kick that spikes opponents.
Air Up+A: An upward kick that deals more damage at Leon’s foot.
Air Down+A: Leon stomps down and falls to the ground.

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: A leaping kick.
Up+A: A roundhouse kick.
Down+A: Leon performs a horizontal knife slash along the ground.

Grab Game
Grab: Leon grabs the opponent with his open hand.
Pummel: An elbow strike
Forwards+Throw: Leon kicks the opponent forward in the same manner as kicking down a door
Back+Throw: A suplex
Up+Throw: Leon jumps off the opponent using both hands and kicks them into the air
Down+Throw: Leon gets onto the ground and kicks the opponent into the air
Special Moves
B : Special Weapon; Leon uses an item in his inventory.

1. Handgun fires shots comparable to Falco’s Blaster
2. Shotgun fires a spread shot that deals more damage at closer range
3. TMP fires rapidly by holding B but deals meager damage
4. Matilda fires three-round bursts comparable to Fox’s Blaster
5. Mine Thrower fires an explosive homing dart that functions similarly to the Gooey Bomb
6. Rifle deals more damage from further away but has considerable startup and endlag
7. Red9 fires a short-range shot with considerable knockback and endlag
8. Green Herb heals 1/3 of Leon’s current damage %

B + ← → : Knife; Leon throws his hunting knife to spike opponents. If hit, Leon instead swipes forward and crumples opponents on the ground while saying “No thanks, bro!”.
B + ↑ : Grappling Hook; Leon fires a grappling hook to save him from danger. It automatically aims at any nearby ledge and Leon zips straight to it.
B + ↓ : Inventory; Leon cycles through his inventory to select which weapon to use

Final Smash: Chicago Typewriter; Leon jumps onto a rope ladder on a helicopter in the foreground and fires several bullets from a full-auto machine gun (taking its appearance from the gangster costume). Leon finishes by saying “Hasta luego!” and switching to a rocket launcher that fires at the opponent.

Gimmick: Limited Resources; Leon has a limited amount of ammo and doesn’t get it back until bis next stock

• Handgun: 10 rounds (reloads automatically)
• Shotgun: 6 rounds
• TMP: 50 rounds
• Matilda: 30 rounds
• Mine Thrower: 5 rounds
• Rifle: 5 rounds
• Red9: 9 rounds
• Green Herb only has one use before the next stock

Taunts
Up: Leon attempts to contact Hunnigan, but nothing comes up.
Side: Leon reloads his handgun.
Down: “Pfft. Amateurs.” Leon tosses his gun into the air and strikes a pose after catching it.

Winposes
1: “Where’s everyone going? Bingo?” A 1-1 recreation of the opening of Resident Evil 4; no other opponents are present during the victory animation.
2: Leon smugly sits on Saddler’s throne.
3: “This is Leon. I’m ready to go.” Leon contacts Hunnigan.

Applause: Leon claps with a disappointed look on his face while looking to his right.
Icon: The Umbrella Corporation logo
Star K.O.: https://youtu.be/CnGsO5Ul5KM
Victory Music: Game Over - Resident Evil 4
Kirby Hat: Leon’s hair

Role in The Subspace Emissary
Part of SSE’s story would likely be changed considerably depending on Leon’s role, but it would be similar to Snake’s; gathering intel on the Subspace Army. On a side note, going back to my point on alternate SSE levels, Leon would first appear in the alternate Battlefield Fortress stage, which now has a design closer to Salazar Castle. In addition, his ammo would refill automatically every time he changes weapons and his green herb now heals 50% damage exactly. There would also be a new original enemy combining elements of Garrdor and Verdugo (albeit without all the M-rated parts).

Stage: Salazar Castle
The stage takes place in the cathedral, in front of the Salazar Statue. The hands of the statue primarily act as platforms that move up and down. Occasionally, the statue becomes sentient and uses its hands to chop opponents into a bottomless pit. There are also torch platforms on each side; lavender-colored flames will occasionally rise and damage fighters before dissipating.

When the player (as Leon) flicks the up taunt quickly enough, it will engage a conversation with Hunnigan about the relevant opponent.

Assist Trophy: Nemesis T-Type
Nemesis from Resident Evil 3 appears as a frighteningly powerful Assist Trophy. He walks slowly and fires a rocket launcher that deals terrifying damage and knockback. When close to a fighter, he impales them in the stomach, instantly KO-ing anyone above 100%. He would also be a boss battle in SSE, where he replaces Wario as the “trophy hunter” of the Subspace Army. And yes; design-wise, Nemesis would be relatively toned down (think of his portrayal in UMvC3).

Leon would of course return in Ultimate, with Chris as an Echo Fighter.

Just to be clear; I wouldn’t get rid of Snake for the world. I just wanted to entertain the idea.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Eh, I don't think Mr Dream was anyone's favourite character. Just a placeholder for Mike Tyson. I'd expect the Bruiser twins to come back before he did.

I still wouldn't mind him coming back and them maybe expanding his character some more.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

This would be a wild concept (especially given the rights issues) but I'd love to see a touring puzzle game stage. You start with a Tetris oriented section (maybe with some shout outs to Tetris Effect), end up a Puzzle Bobble screen with the likes of Bub and Bob having a cameo, move on to a Dr Mario area with the viruses, then venture to Puyo Puyo with Arle and company in the background, before going to Panel de Pon where Lip is seen performing magic (maybe with some small Yoshi and Pokemon series elements too as easter eggs). Essentially you pay tribute to some of the most notable series in the genre (and the crossovers with them that have occurred) in chronological order without one kind dominating the entire level and becoming tedious.

You know what, throw Columns a bone via a few music tracks from that series to boot.

 

[Soy_Man]

Yes, because joking about people calling out parts of the community that are/have protected literal white supremacists, sexists, homophobes, or people who attempted to normalize abusers in the community is a good idea.

Do you realize how tone deaf you are? Do you want people who support bigotry to have a home in this community? Because joking about any attempt to stamp them out is how you get that. Do you want people trying to rehabilitate people who abused minors? Or how about people spewing racist things during the biggest civil rights moment in this century? Or how about people literally going to bat for open white supremacists? I have seen all of that on this very site, as recently as this year. If you foster that environment, you will let bigotry take root. You need to rip out the roots if you want to fix the problem.

Now circle that back to Smash. People in the past defended an out and out white supremacist because he wrote a think piece they liked on Source Gaming. I do not want to even risk for one second that kind of person being enshrined and protected in the community again just because a vocal minority of Smash fans like the way they did not like Cloud Strife. It's not like its a one off thing either. I have seen people protect individuals saying horribly racist things about who our first PoC character in Smash was just because they liked their Smash opinions. I have seen people get cheers for saying homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin and Byleth.

Do you genuinely want these kinds of people to feel comfortable in our community? Do you want the kind of people who say racist, sexist, homophobic things to be celebrated on here? Or do you want to do the right thing and take a stand against it? Because joking about people calling out a vocal minority that has historically protected white supremacists is a great way to make sure you enable the worst aspects of the community. If you want to deal with the issues of bigotry and hatred, you have do whatever it takes to make it have no home here.

I would put down whatever discussion topic is out there if there were literal nazis being protected by it. There being an open white supremacist is bad enough. You are missing the important detail that people defended him. Even when he made his profile picture a literal white supremacist, people defended him and his character because they liked the things he was saying about Smash. Think of that for a second. People are literally protecting an out and out nazi...because they like the fact he hates Cloud Strife. It doesn't matter how many awful dogwhistles he throws out: wanting less Fire Emblem and Third Parties is enough for people to be ride or die for someone like that.

As much as I would like just reporting offensive things to be enough, it clearly isn't. I have seen people get away with saying racist things during the George Floyd protests on this site. It doesn't matter that I reported it; they get to stick around. Or people defending outed abusers because they think they can be "rehabilitated" or "learned their lesson" and then immediately pivot towards victim blaming. Reporting just isnt enough, you need to actively call out and stamp out action like that when possible.

I strongly regret not doing enough to call it out during the post Smash 4 environment. I could have stuck around and done more: instead I peaced out and merely browsed. I could have and should have done more to call out the bigotry bubbling under the surface. One voice might not have been enough, but stamping that kind of discussion out early maybe could have had a positive effect on the site broadly. By the time I got back, people like SmashChu were still held up strongly. I saw quite a few homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin. Someone said such a racist comment towards what our first PoC character was in Smash, I genuinely felt a little sick to my stomach. The amount of casual bigotry that managed to seep into casual discussion then is disgusting.

Fast forward to today. I already see the warning signs for someone as reprehensible as the Nazi getting a foothold here. Right after Smash 4, I saw a bunch of the same warning signs. People disheartened with Smash speculation because it did not go "their way". There were targets for ridicule that people singled out quickly: back then it was mainly Cloud and Corrin. Disenfranchised people latched onto a literal Nazi because they liked what he was saying. Nowadays, its slightly different but I see the same warning signs on here. Disenfranchised people are upset Ultimate wasn't their Smash Ultimate. The othered characters tend to be clones, third parties broadly, Corrin, and Incineroar. It sickens me to imagine, but I can easily see someone with toxic beliefs rising up and getting protected today too. I do not want to risk anyone like that rising up. I don't ever want to risk someone like that being able to get a foothold in the Smash community, or worse radicalize parts of it, again.

Would I prefer to do nothing? It would be so much easier to sit back, but no I do not have that luxury. There is too much of a chance of someone like that coming in and poisoning the community with their vile beliefs. I saw what happened once when it got normalized and not enough was done, I do not want to risk it happening again. Obviously, not every person in this community is a bigot. Most people in this community are not bigots. The vast majoirty of the community are not bigots. But the scars are there. Smash speculation has only gotten more tribal as people desperately cling to something to promote their views on what the next game should be as we are in limbo. I worry that should a SmashChu like figure come up again, it would be even more volatile for the community. I can't risk something like that happening again and have the clock turned back to 2017. If that means coming down on some parts of speculation harder, so be it. I'd rather not have to rain on cuts discussion. But then I remember that is how the Nazi got his foothold in the community: with a think peace on who should be cut to have a "return to form". There was not enough push back to that mentality last time that it enabled him to get a foothold in the community. If people were willing to accept and defend an open nazi like that last time, I worry that it can happen again but worse this time.

Let's get you to sleep grandpa.

 

[Speed Weed]

I still think the leaps being made are unreasonable and harmful, but after thinking on it some more, yeah I unfortunately can't say I disagree with this community having a serious bigotry problem. Just a few days ago, someone on here made profile posts saying blatant full-on mask-off transphobic ****. The fact that that sort of **** still happens is insane, and I do think there are points where the people in charge of these communities are way too lenient with this. Granted.....I don't think anyone here is disputing that. I think we can all agree that this is a very real problem that needs to be fought back against, I just feel like these supposed "countermeasures" were devolving into attacking anyone with an opinion that could even slightly be traced to an opinion that could itself be traced to this.

 

[Gengar84]

Does anyone else miss Snake’s Brawl down smash and his little trick he could do with a sliding up smash? I get how his current down smash might be more competitively viable but I loved how the old one was so unique for a Smash attack. Other characters like Zelda and Captain Falcon already have similar down smashes to Snake’s current one so it’s a bit on the boring side.

 

[HyperSomari64]

end up a Bubble Bobble screen with the likes of Bub and Bob having a cameo

You meant Puzzle Bobble, right?
But i pass it since I like the idea of a "Comical Action Game" stage like Snow Brothers or Tumblepop.

Platformer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Laniv]

I think a change of subject may be what the thread needs. What needed to be said was said and I don't see further conversation being productive.

How about Dr. Mario? People have been saying that a stage would be cool. How would you design a Dr. Mario stage?

The bottle with pills falling from above is the obvious choice, but it'd have to be widened to be a feasible Smash stage. Otherwise it'd be cramped.

Also, the Dr. Mario viruses ought to be an Assist Trophy, latching onto a fighter and lowering their run speed, jump height, and damage output, while also making them take more damage from attacks. They're getting sick!

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Let's get you to sleep grandpa.

So you support homophobia, racism, sexism, and bigotry? Because it seems pretty clear you do if your response to someone telling you "don't joke about this bigotry is a genuine issue in our community" is another joke, its a good sign you don't think its an issue in our community.

Do us both a favor. Say right now you are against bigotry in our community. Say that you think the homophobia, transphobia, racism, and sexism that lingers in this community is bad and we should act against it. Do it. Because right now, I think you could easily be a bigot if you think people saying reprehensible stuff about the biggest civil rights moment of the 21st century, saying homophobic and transphobic remarks, or defending an open white supremacist is fine. Just say that it isn't. Say that bigotry in this community is bad and should not be tolerated.

Unless of course you are a bigot and think that stuff is fine. If you think its fine and something that we can all joke about, say that instead. Personally, if you couldn't tell, I think bigotry on this site is bad. I think most people broadly think bigotry is bad. So please, say that bigotry is bad for everyone here to show you think it's a serious issue. Or don't, and let people know how you think this is something fun to joke about.

 

[Gengar84]

I guess I’m glad I wasn’t active when all this bigotry took place. I personally haven’t really seen much on here that qualifies as that. I can’t stand people like that and I’d be right there with you calling them out. I just think you’re jumping to conclusions too fast when anyone brings up a topic that is similar to what led to that in the past. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with discussing cuts even though I don’t personally find the topic interesting.

The most I’d do with anything I’ve seen on here would be to kindly let the person know that something they said could be taken the wrong way and explain why it might be perceived as prejudice. I’ve already done that with some people here in the past but I’m convinced the comments were made out of a place of ignorance rather than hatred. If they continued to act that way over and over, then something more drastic might be warranted.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You meant Puzzle Bobble, right?
But i pass it since I like the idea of a "Comical Action Game" stage like Snow Brothers or Tumblepop.

Platformer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Should have just gone with my instincts and said it would be a Bust a Move stage.

 

[Sucumbio]

Does anyone else miss Snake’s Brawl down smash and his little trick he could do with a sliding up smash? I get how his current down smash might be more competitively viable but I loved how the old one was so unique for a Smash attack. Other characters like Zelda and Captain Falcon already have similar down smashes to Snake’s current one so it’s a bit on the boring side.

Definitely. I never use his dsmash because of how different it is lol. And yeah DACUS was amazing with snake. It was cool with a few characters but especially snake. Throw a grenade, DACUS in, grab it and throw haha those were the days.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just add a Dr. Mario stage. Dr. Mario himself is a nice fun character that also has a nice take on the moveset.

Though if we can get alternate character playstyles, not terribly unlike Echo stacking, I'll gladly merge him with Mario as long as they both have their own moveset and are treated separately in that regard.

That said, while it might seem like Persona 5 being the more core logo is a problem, they've changed logos before. They can do so again if they want to add another Persona character. Ironically FF, despite being generic, might as well have had the FFVII logo(which is mainly what is represents with barely an exception. We only have a tiny select set of things not specifically from VII or its remake, and that's the Chocobo costume and the specific version of Ifrit on Midgar. Notably the Ifrit spirit is properly the VII design). But I do agree that a more generic Persona logo is better too.

 

[Opossum]

Yes, because joking about people calling out parts of the community that are/have protected literal white supremacists, sexists, homophobes, or people who attempted to normalize abusers in the community is a good idea.

Do you realize how tone deaf you are? Do you want people who support bigotry to have a home in this community? Because joking about any attempt to stamp them out is how you get that. Do you want people trying to rehabilitate people who abused minors? Or how about people spewing racist things during the biggest civil rights moment in this century? Or how about people literally going to bat for open white supremacists? I have seen all of that on this very site, as recently as this year. If you foster that environment, you will let bigotry take root. You need to rip out the roots if you want to fix the problem.

Now circle that back to Smash. People in the past defended an out and out white supremacist because he wrote a think piece they liked on Source Gaming. I do not want to even risk for one second that kind of person being enshrined and protected in the community again just because a vocal minority of Smash fans like the way they did not like Cloud Strife. It's not like its a one off thing either. I have seen people protect individuals saying horribly racist things about who our first PoC character in Smash was just because they liked their Smash opinions. I have seen people get cheers for saying homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin and Byleth.

Do you genuinely want these kinds of people to feel comfortable in our community? Do you want the kind of people who say racist, sexist, homophobic things to be celebrated on here? Or do you want to do the right thing and take a stand against it? Because joking about people calling out a vocal minority that has historically protected white supremacists is a great way to make sure you enable the worst aspects of the community. If you want to deal with the issues of bigotry and hatred, you have do whatever it takes to make it have no home here.

I would put down whatever discussion topic is out there if there were literal nazis being protected by it. There being an open white supremacist is bad enough. You are missing the important detail that people defended him. Even when he made his profile picture a literal white supremacist, people defended him and his character because they liked the things he was saying about Smash. Think of that for a second. People are literally protecting an out and out nazi...because they like the fact he hates Cloud Strife. It doesn't matter how many awful dogwhistles he throws out: wanting less Fire Emblem and Third Parties is enough for people to be ride or die for someone like that.

As much as I would like just reporting offensive things to be enough, it clearly isn't. I have seen people get away with saying racist things during the George Floyd protests on this site. It doesn't matter that I reported it; they get to stick around. Or people defending outed abusers because they think they can be "rehabilitated" or "learned their lesson" and then immediately pivot towards victim blaming. Reporting just isnt enough, you need to actively call out and stamp out action like that when possible.

I strongly regret not doing enough to call it out during the post Smash 4 environment. I could have stuck around and done more: instead I peaced out and merely browsed. I could have and should have done more to call out the bigotry bubbling under the surface. One voice might not have been enough, but stamping that kind of discussion out early maybe could have had a positive effect on the site broadly. By the time I got back, people like SmashChu were still held up strongly. I saw quite a few homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin. Someone said such a racist comment towards what our first PoC character was in Smash, I genuinely felt a little sick to my stomach. The amount of casual bigotry that managed to seep into casual discussion then is disgusting.

Fast forward to today. I already see the warning signs for someone as reprehensible as the Nazi getting a foothold here. Right after Smash 4, I saw a bunch of the same warning signs. People disheartened with Smash speculation because it did not go "their way". There were targets for ridicule that people singled out quickly: back then it was mainly Cloud and Corrin. Disenfranchised people latched onto a literal Nazi because they liked what he was saying. Nowadays, its slightly different but I see the same warning signs on here. Disenfranchised people are upset Ultimate wasn't their Smash Ultimate. The othered characters tend to be clones, third parties broadly, Corrin, and Incineroar. It sickens me to imagine, but I can easily see someone with toxic beliefs rising up and getting protected today too. I do not want to risk anyone like that rising up. I don't ever want to risk someone like that being able to get a foothold in the Smash community, or worse radicalize parts of it, again.

Would I prefer to do nothing? It would be so much easier to sit back, but no I do not have that luxury. There is too much of a chance of someone like that coming in and poisoning the community with their vile beliefs. I saw what happened once when it got normalized and not enough was done, I do not want to risk it happening again. Obviously, not every person in this community is a bigot. Most people in this community are not bigots. The vast majoirty of the community are not bigots. But the scars are there. Smash speculation has only gotten more tribal as people desperately cling to something to promote their views on what the next game should be as we are in limbo. I worry that should a SmashChu like figure come up again, it would be even more volatile for the community. I can't risk something like that happening again and have the clock turned back to 2017. If that means coming down on some parts of speculation harder, so be it. I'd rather not have to rain on cuts discussion. But then I remember that is how the Nazi got his foothold in the community: with a think peace on who should be cut to have a "return to form". There was not enough push back to that mentality last time that it enabled him to get a foothold in the community. If people were willing to accept and defend an open nazi like that last time, I worry that it can happen again but worse this time.

I absolutely agree that bigotry is a very serious problem in the community. It always has been, to be honest. Video game fan culture very often breeds it, and Smash by nature brings fans of different games together. So it being present makes sense, as awful as it is. And yes, that's why it's incredibly important to stamp it out on sight.

But it's the pre-emptive stamping based on loose correlations that I don't agree with, as it only serves to throw a ton of well-meaning people under the bus. I've been on record numerous times in the past about how I feel the site didn't do enough to stop hateful rhetoric. If someone used a dog whistle, often times higher ups gave them far too much benefit of the doubt. Finding out later on that someone who is (I believe) now ex-staff was a major alt-right MAGA type was unfortunately unsurprising. Things have gotten somewhat better since the implementation of the inclusivity policies a few years back, but it's still not perfect, or even necessarily "good." But it's progress.

That being said...pretty much nobody here back in the day liked SmashChu. So many people hated him, just not out in the open as to not incite things. And looking back that, too, was a bit of a mistake. There were others of his ilk that did get more public support (TheAnvil [another Source Gaming alum, funny enough], the Transphobic Geno Guy, and the guy who ran the Earthworm Jim thread all come to mind), but also a lot of pushback. That's the part I think you're overlooking. There WAS pushback.

Normally I hate this phrase due to it often being used for things like copaganda, but this is one such place where I do think the phrase "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" is apt. Not everyone who talks about cuts are the type to visibly squirm when you inform them that characters like Ike and Isabelle are canonically LGBT, or push back at the idea of adding more female characters or characters of color.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Yes, because joking about people calling out parts of the community that are/have protected literal white supremacists, sexists, homophobes, or people who attempted to normalize abusers in the community is a good idea.

Do you realize how tone deaf you are? Do you want people who support bigotry to have a home in this community? Because joking about any attempt to stamp them out is how you get that. Do you want people trying to rehabilitate people who abused minors? Or how about people spewing racist things during the biggest civil rights moment in this century? Or how about people literally going to bat for open white supremacists? I have seen all of that on this very site, as recently as this year. If you foster that environment, you will let bigotry take root. You need to rip out the roots if you want to fix the problem.

Now circle that back to Smash. People in the past defended an out and out white supremacist because he wrote a think piece they liked on Source Gaming. I do not want to even risk for one second that kind of person being enshrined and protected in the community again just because a vocal minority of Smash fans like the way they did not like Cloud Strife. It's not like its a one off thing either. I have seen people protect individuals saying horribly racist things about who our first PoC character in Smash was just because they liked their Smash opinions. I have seen people get cheers for saying homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin and Byleth.

Do you genuinely want these kinds of people to feel comfortable in our community? Do you want the kind of people who say racist, sexist, homophobic things to be celebrated on here? Or do you want to do the right thing and take a stand against it? Because joking about people calling out a vocal minority that has historically protected white supremacists is a great way to make sure you enable the worst aspects of the community. If you want to deal with the issues of bigotry and hatred, you have do whatever it takes to make it have no home here.

I would put down whatever discussion topic is out there if there were literal nazis being protected by it. There being an open white supremacist is bad enough. You are missing the important detail that people defended him. Even when he made his profile picture a literal white supremacist, people defended him and his character because they liked the things he was saying about Smash. Think of that for a second. People are literally protecting an out and out nazi...because they like the fact he hates Cloud Strife. It doesn't matter how many awful dogwhistles he throws out: wanting less Fire Emblem and Third Parties is enough for people to be ride or die for someone like that.

As much as I would like just reporting offensive things to be enough, it clearly isn't. I have seen people get away with saying racist things during the George Floyd protests on this site. It doesn't matter that I reported it; they get to stick around. Or people defending outed abusers because they think they can be "rehabilitated" or "learned their lesson" and then immediately pivot towards victim blaming. Reporting just isnt enough, you need to actively call out and stamp out action like that when possible.

I strongly regret not doing enough to call it out during the post Smash 4 environment. I could have stuck around and done more: instead I peaced out and merely browsed. I could have and should have done more to call out the bigotry bubbling under the surface. One voice might not have been enough, but stamping that kind of discussion out early maybe could have had a positive effect on the site broadly. By the time I got back, people like SmashChu were still held up strongly. I saw quite a few homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin. Someone said such a racist comment towards what our first PoC character was in Smash, I genuinely felt a little sick to my stomach. The amount of casual bigotry that managed to seep into casual discussion then is disgusting.

Fast forward to today. I already see the warning signs for someone as reprehensible as the Nazi getting a foothold here. Right after Smash 4, I saw a bunch of the same warning signs. People disheartened with Smash speculation because it did not go "their way". There were targets for ridicule that people singled out quickly: back then it was mainly Cloud and Corrin. Disenfranchised people latched onto a literal Nazi because they liked what he was saying. Nowadays, its slightly different but I see the same warning signs on here. Disenfranchised people are upset Ultimate wasn't their Smash Ultimate. The othered characters tend to be clones, third parties broadly, Corrin, and Incineroar. It sickens me to imagine, but I can easily see someone with toxic beliefs rising up and getting protected today too. I do not want to risk anyone like that rising up. I don't ever want to risk someone like that being able to get a foothold in the Smash community, or worse radicalize parts of it, again.

Would I prefer to do nothing? It would be so much easier to sit back, but no I do not have that luxury. There is too much of a chance of someone like that coming in and poisoning the community with their vile beliefs. I saw what happened once when it got normalized and not enough was done, I do not want to risk it happening again. Obviously, not every person in this community is a bigot. Most people in this community are not bigots. The vast majoirty of the community are not bigots. But the scars are there. Smash speculation has only gotten more tribal as people desperately cling to something to promote their views on what the next game should be as we are in limbo. I worry that should a SmashChu like figure come up again, it would be even more volatile for the community. I can't risk something like that happening again and have the clock turned back to 2017. If that means coming down on some parts of speculation harder, so be it. I'd rather not have to rain on cuts discussion. But then I remember that is how the Nazi got his foothold in the community: with a think peace on who should be cut to have a "return to form". There was not enough push back to that mentality last time that it enabled him to get a foothold in the community. If people were willing to accept and defend an open nazi like that last time, I worry that it can happen again but worse this time.

I 100% agree that there is no place for bigotry of any kind here, and it has to be called out immediately when it happens, no matter who's involved.

But that's not what's happened here, people are having casual conversations about smash bros, on a smash bros forum. We don't want characters cut, but it's an inevitability at this stage, and something worth talking about.

It is genuinely a shame that you feel this way about the community, and since I wasn't here to see what you're talking about I have no clue how bad it's been in the past, but from what I've seen, the majority of people here are mor likely to call stuff out than be bigots themselves. I've only really used this forum, and dont read every message, so it's entirely possible I've managed to avoid some horrible people, which I am grateful for, and it's a shame you haven't had the same experience. I have, and will always call out anything even close to bigotry, but that really isn't what I'm seeing right now.

Let's get you to sleep grandpa.

Equally, this is tone-deaf and insensitive, and I'd appreciate it if people could either be nice (or at least civil), or not bother sending messages at all.

This place has always been comforting, a place where people enjoy talking about the same sort of stuff I do, when I barely know anyone like that in real life (which is why I came back randomly despite there being no new game). I'd like to keep it that way, and this is bordering on bullying, making fun of someone who's clearly got genuine concerns.

So, if at all possible, I'd like people to leave this argument behind, and make sure to keep this place as welcoming as I've found it, because this argument isn't good for anyone involved. Keep an eye out for bullying, bigotry, etc., but equally don't accuse people of things they haven't done, because it will just muddy the waters and allow actual bigots to slip through the cracks.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, for a doctor mario stage, I have a horrible image in my head of it basically being surgeon simulator, with a photorealistic human being operated on with cartoon viruses inside them. I get the feeling Nintendo wouldn't be too happy with that though...

 

[Nabbitfan730]

There is absolutely no way we conflating Smash Roster Discussion and Preferences to Nazism and Racial Bigotry. Already bad enough that words like Nazi and Racism, words mean real connotations, meaning and consequences are diluted nowadays due to being overused for stupid nonsense such as this.

No way that wanting Nintendo characters for a Nintendo-based crossover = White supremacy. Such an unserious community

Phantom, why is it that when anyone says things less than blind praise about Smash Bros, especially Ultimate and its roster, you are on the first line of defense assuming the worse out of people?

You do realize these are video games by and produced by faceless corporations for entertainment right? Sakurai, Nintendo, and anyone involved with development of Smash Bros aren't your friends and don't care about you at all.

Who actually cares if people didn't like EiH and want cuts or like discussion.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Anyway, for a doctor mario stage, I have a horrible image in my head of it basically being surgeon simulator, with a photorealistic human being operated on with cartoon viruses inside them. I get the feeling Nintendo wouldn't be too happy with that though...

Just imagine in Konami gives permission to Sora Ltd. to make a mixed Adventure Island/Bonk stage, and it's a Brawl Mushroom Kingdom-style desert with fossilized bones in the background.
Not sure it it sounds cool and awesome or creepy and depressing.

 

[fogbadge]

I absolutely agree that bigotry is a very serious problem in the community. It always has been, to be honest. Video game fan culture very often breeds it, and Smash by nature brings fans of different games together. So it being present makes sense, as awful as it is. And yes, that's why it's incredibly important to stamp it out on sight.

But it's the pre-emptive stamping based on loose correlations that I don't agree with, as it only serves to throw a ton of well-meaning people under the bus. I've been on record numerous times in the past about how I feel the site didn't do enough to stop hateful rhetoric. If someone used a dog whistle, often times higher ups gave them far too much benefit of the doubt. Finding out later on that someone who is (I believe) now ex-staff was a major alt-right MAGA type was unfortunately unsurprising. Things have gotten somewhat better since the implementation of the inclusivity policies a few years back, but it's still not perfect, or even necessarily "good." But it's progress.

That being said...pretty much nobody here back in the day liked SmashChu. So many people hated him, just not out in the open as to not incite things. And looking back that, too, was a bit of a mistake. There were others of his ilk that did get more public support (TheAnvil [another Source Gaming alum, funny enough], the Transphobic Geno Guy, and the guy who ran the Earthworm Jim thread all come to mind), but also a lot of pushback. That's the part I think you're overlooking. There WAS pushback.

Normally I hate this phrase due to it often being used for things like copaganda, but this is one such place where I do think the phrase "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" is apt. Not everyone who talks about cuts are the type to visibly squirm when you inform them that characters like Ike and Isabelle are canonically LGBT, or push back at the idea of adding more female characters or characters of color.

isabelle is lgbt+?

 

[Opossum]

isabelle is lgbt+?

In New Leaf it's heavily implied she has a crush on the player character and the dialogue doesn't change depending on the player's gender.

 

[fogbadge]

In New Leaf it's heavily implied she has a crush on the player character and the dialogue doesn't change depending on the player's gender.

huh. That did not pick up on that

 

[Perkilator]

Anyways, for the sake of changing subjects, here’s my hypothetical scenario where Leon was in Brawl instead of Snake:

Spoiler

Leon would be voiced by Paul Mercier in all regions.

Intro: Leon walks onto the stage and reloads his handgun.

Stance/Idle 1: Leon holds his handgun up to his face.
Idle 2: Leon looks carefully behind himself.
Idle 3: Leon pushes his hair back.

Notable Palette Swaps:

1. Jacket (default)
2. No jacket
3. Ada Wong (red, no jacket)
4. Ashley Graham (orange, no jacket)
5. Special 1 (R.P.D. uniform)
6. Special 2 (gangster outfit)

Walk: His jog from RE4.
Dash: His run from RE4.
Damage: His damage animation from RE4. When he’s at 50% or higher, his animations are in caution mode. When he’s at 100% or higher, his animations are in danger mode.
Jump: His jump from RE4.
Crouch: Leon’s crouch from RE4 whenever he dodges something.

Normal Attacks
Jab: Leon kicks twice, followed by rapid knife slashing.
Forward+A: Leon jabs forward with his hunting knife.
Up+A: An uppercut with Leon’s open hand.
Down+A: A sweep kick in front of Leon.
Dash Attack: A slide on the ground.
Edge Attack: Leon slashes with his knife, which can trip opponents, before climbing back up.
Get-Up Attack: A 360 sweep kick along the ground.

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: A 360 spinning kick.
Air Forward+A: A flying two-legged kick that deals more damage at Leon’s foot.
Air Back + A: A backflip kick that spikes opponents.
Air Up+A: An upward kick that deals more damage at Leon’s foot.
Air Down+A: Leon stomps down and falls to the ground.

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: A leaping kick.
Up+A: A roundhouse kick.
Down+A: Leon performs a horizontal knife slash along the ground.

Grab Game
Grab: Leon grabs the opponent with his open hand.
Pummel: An elbow strike
Forwards+Throw: Leon kicks the opponent forward in the same manner as kicking down a door
Back+Throw: A suplex
Up+Throw: Leon jumps off the opponent using both hands and kicks them into the air
Down+Throw: Leon gets onto the ground and kicks the opponent into the air
Special Moves
B : Special Weapon; Leon uses an item in his inventory.

1. Handgun fires shots comparable to Falco’s Blaster
2. Shotgun fires a spread shot that deals more damage at closer range
3. TMP fires rapidly by holding B but deals meager damage
4. Matilda fires three-round bursts comparable to Fox’s Blaster
5. Mine Thrower fires an explosive homing dart that functions similarly to the Gooey Bomb
6. Rifle deals more damage from further away but has considerable startup and endlag
7. Red9 fires a short-range shot with considerable knockback and endlag
8. Green Herb heals 1/3 of Leon’s current damage %

B + ← → : Knife; Leon throws his hunting knife to spike opponents. If hit, Leon instead swipes forward and crumples opponents on the ground while saying “No thanks, bro!”.
B + ↑ : Grappling Hook; Leon fires a grappling hook to save him from danger. It automatically aims at any nearby ledge and Leon zips straight to it.
B + ↓ : Inventory; Leon cycles through his inventory to select which weapon to use

Final Smash: Chicago Typewriter; Leon jumps onto a rope ladder on a helicopter in the foreground and fires several bullets from a full-auto machine gun (taking its appearance from the gangster costume). Leon finishes by saying “Hasta luego!” and switching to a rocket launcher that fires at the opponent.

Gimmick: Limited Resources; Leon has a limited amount of ammo and doesn’t get it back until bis next stock

• Handgun: 10 rounds (reloads automatically)
• Shotgun: 6 rounds
• TMP: 50 rounds
• Matilda: 30 rounds
• Mine Thrower: 5 rounds
• Rifle: 5 rounds
• Red9: 9 rounds
• Green Herb only has one use before the next stock

Taunts
Up: Leon attempts to contact Hunnigan, but nothing comes up.
Side: Leon reloads his handgun.
Down: “Pfft. Amateurs.” Leon tosses his gun into the air and strikes a pose after catching it.

Winposes
1: “Where’s everyone going? Bingo?” A 1-1 recreation of the opening of Resident Evil 4; no other opponents are present during the victory animation.
2: Leon smugly sits on Saddler’s throne.
3: “This is Leon. I’m ready to go.” Leon contacts Hunnigan.

Applause: Leon claps with a disappointed look on his face while looking to his right.
Icon: The Umbrella Corporation logo
Star K.O.: https://youtu.be/CnGsO5Ul5KM
Victory Music: Game Over - Resident Evil 4
Kirby Hat: Leon’s hair

Role in The Subspace Emissary
Part of SSE’s story would likely be changed considerably depending on Leon’s role, but it would be similar to Snake’s; gathering intel on the Subspace Army. On a side note, going back to my point on alternate SSE levels, Leon would first appear in the alternate Battlefield Fortress stage, which now has a design closer to Salazar Castle. In addition, his ammo would refill automatically every time he changes weapons and his green herb now heals 50% damage exactly. There would also be a new original enemy combining elements of Garrdor and Verdugo (albeit without all the M-rated parts).

Stage: Salazar Castle
The stage takes place in the cathedral, in front of the Salazar Statue. The hands of the statue primarily act as platforms that move up and down. Occasionally, the statue becomes sentient and uses its hands to chop opponents into a bottomless pit. There are also torch platforms on each side; lavender-colored flames will occasionally rise and damage fighters before dissipating.

When the player (as Leon) flicks the up taunt quickly enough, it will engage a conversation with Hunnigan about the relevant opponent.

Assist Trophy: Nemesis T-Type
Nemesis from Resident Evil 3 appears as a frighteningly powerful Assist Trophy. He walks slowly and fires a rocket launcher that deals terrifying damage and knockback. When close to a fighter, he impales them in the stomach, instantly KO-ing anyone above 100%. He would also be a boss battle in SSE, where he replaces Wario as the “trophy hunter” of the Subspace Army. And yes; design-wise, Nemesis would be relatively toned down (think of his portrayal in UMvC3).

Leon would of course return in Ultimate, with Chris as an Echo Fighter.

Just to be clear; I wouldn’t get rid of Snake for the world. I just wanted to entertain the idea.

Bumping because I desperately want to change the subject.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Yeah, let's move on. Such as nonsensical conversation.

Who should be upgraded?

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[chocolatejr9]

I'll just add to the conversation slightly and say that while I do understand feeling burned by this community's lengthy and well-documented history of bigotry and not wanting that to happen again, and I can especially understand getting very emotional with these matters (lord knows it's happened to me many times), big leaps were being made that IMO were starting to do more harm than good. It's important to draw a line somewhere.

Anyway change of topic

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Joe Hoops for Smash 6. Discuss

There's a Ken Penders joke I REALLY wanna make, but I'm worried I'll get in trouble for being off-topic...

 

[Schnee117]

So you support homophobia, racism, sexism, and bigotry? Because it seems pretty clear you do if your response to someone telling you "don't joke about this bigotry is a genuine issue in our community" is another joke, its a good sign you don't think its an issue in our community.

Do us both a favor. Say right now you are against bigotry in our community. Say that you think the homophobia, transphobia, racism, and sexism that lingers in this community is bad and we should act against it. Do it. Because right now, I think you could easily be a bigot if you think people saying reprehensible stuff about the biggest civil rights moment of the 21st century, saying homophobic and transphobic remarks, or defending an open white supremacist is fine. Just say that it isn't. Say that bigotry in this community is bad and should not be tolerated.

Unless of course you are a bigot and think that stuff is fine. If you think its fine and something that we can all joke about, say that instead. Personally, if you couldn't tell, I think bigotry on this site is bad. I think most people broadly think bigotry is bad. So please, say that bigotry is bad for everyone here to show you think it's a serious issue. Or don't, and let people know how you think this is something fun to joke about.

You're doing more to hurt us minorities here with these weird ass tirades that all stemmed from you complaining about cuts being talked about ever so slightly.

No one currently in this conversation is a bigot. They just think you're being out of order.
So listen to me when I say you should step off and cool down. Save this energy for whenever someone decides to actively out themselves as a bigot. No one's blowing any of the dogwhistles at the moment.

All you can do pre-emptively is make the rules fully known in thread OPs and get more diverse moderators on board to deal with issues as and when they arise.

I (TheAnvil [another Source Gaming alum, funny enough]

Also worth mentioning he runs the Bring Back Banjo account on twitter because certain users who talk the talk about being an ally here are pretty buddy buddy with that account on twitter

Yeah, let's move on. Such as nonsensical conversation.

Who should be upgraded?

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This is awkward huh

 

[TCT~Phantom]

There is absolutely no way we conflating Smash Roster Discussion and Preferences to Nazism and Racial Bigotry. Already bad enough that words like Nazi and Racism, words mean real connotations, meaning and consequences are diluted nowadays due to being overused for stupid nonsense such as this.

No way that wanting Nintendo characters for a Nintendo-based crossover = White supremacy. Such an unserious topic.

Phantom, why is it that when anyone says things less than blind praise about Smash Bros, especially Ultimate and its roster, you are on the first line of defense assuming the worse out of people?

You do realize these are video games by and produced by faceless corporations for entertainment right? Sakurai, Nintendo, and anyone aren't your friends and don't care about you at all.

Did you not read what I said? Like at all?

People literally openly defended, supported, and elevated an open white supremacist last time in this community due to them having similar views on cuts. The fact people were willing to let a literal **** ing nazi be in this community is bad enough. But people openly sheltered him, despite his vehement racist dogwhistles and literally having a white supremacist as his profile pick.

It is not like this community has not had issues with bigotry in the past or to this day either. Do you know what happens when you let someone like that get a foothold in our community? People will say homophobic dogwhistles towards Corrin and people will not do anything. People can say something racist about who our first PoC character is, and it won't be as much of an issue. Because the literal nazi got celebrated because he had a source gaming article. Once you let that venom into the community, all sorts of toxicity can seep out.

It isn't like it has shifted at all.I have seen plenty of racism, sexism, homophobia, and general awfulness on this site this year alone. I have seen people say reprehensible things about George Floyd. I have seen people try to rehabilitate ZeRo, who besides being an out and out predator endorses Andrew Tate. Not only is Tate a monster who warps the minds of young men, ZeRo is potentially going to expose that sexist ideology to his fanbase of young men and children. I have seen plenty of homophobic and transphobic remarks and dog whistles on this site as well. It isn't like the community suddenly got better after the nazi was eventually banned: there are still people who act like bigots.

Now today, we have the same situation that let the nazi become an actual figure in our community: a bunch of people upset over the previous Smash bros game leaving them bitter and jaded. Their rants, usually leaning on the Nintendo Purist side, were the breeding ground that let a figure as odious as the nazi become a hero to some in the community. Last time, not enough was done to push back not just against the Nazi, but the people who sheltered him due to his similar Smash beliefs. People sheltered and protected a literal nazi just because someone wrote a Source Gaming op ed against Cloud Strife and wanting a return to for.I do not want to risk for a second something like that ever happening again. I do not want to risk there not being enough pushback leading to an even worse figure getting protected by parts of the community, or worse radicalized by them.

Calling me a corporate shill because god forbid I do not want another Nazi to have a fertile breeding ground to entrench themselves in our community is disgusting. Strawmanning me into a corporate shill because I do not want casual bigotry to find its way further into our community is wrong. Saying that the very real issue of all the toxic bigotry in our community is nonsensical is infuriating. It tells me you think that people saying these awful things is fine. It tells me you think that its more important to have similar smash beliefs than call out the worst aspects of humanity. This is what happened in 2016, which is what I desperately want to avoid.

Do yourself a ****ing favor and educate yourself on this before you say bigotry in the community is a non issue. The amount of bigotry in the community is already a problem, and will be more of a problem if people don't learn from the community's past mistakes.

I'll give you the chance now to say that your statement about it being a nonsense conversation was wrong and hurtful. Let people know you stand against the racist, sexist, and homophobic bigotry that lingers in this community to this day. Or don't, and pretend it's a "nonsensical conversation".

You're doing more to hurt us minorities here with these weird ass tirades that all stemmed from you complaining about cuts being talked about ever so slightly.

No one currently in this conversation is a bigot. They just think you're being out of order.
So listen to me when I say you should step off and cool down. Save this energy for whenever someone decides to actively out themselves as a bigot. No one's blowing any of the dogwhistles at the moment.

If someone is willing to joke about the very serious issue that is the bigotry in the community, they have a good chance of being a bigot themselves. I have seen way too many people be ok with casual bigotry to let joking about it like that fly. They have the opportunity to amend things and show they aren't: the ball is in their court.

Also, way to assume that I am not a minority. I might not talk about it much, but I am a bisexual. The main reason I don't is the bi erasure and biphobia that tends to happen towards bisexual men. Please in the future do not assume things like that, it is hurtful.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Yeah, let's move on. Such as nonsensical conversation.

Who should be upgraded?

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[fogbadge]

Yeah, let's move on. Such as nonsensical conversation.

Who should be upgraded?

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this always trick for me cause a number of the assists are characters who wouldn’t be my first pick as new characters from that series. but for the purpose of the game I’ll go with knuckles, skull kid, midna and bomberman cause I’m curious to see what they’d do with him