Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

I honestly never really understood what character action games are and when a genre is both rare and not clear, I really can't see what significance the games have in it.

Bayonetta is an action game but that's all I know.

 

[Perkilator]

On the topic of Bayonetta, you guys know how she was supposed to be in Project X Zone 2, but Kamiya said no only to regret it later? Let’s say she was in PxZ2. Which outcome would you guys prefer?

A). As part of a Pair Unit with Dante, with Vergil reduced to a Solo Unit (and an extra Pair Unit is added just to create an even 20 Pair Units and 20 Solo Units)
B). As part of a Pair Unit with Pit (and an extra Solo Unit is added just to create an even 20 Pair Units and 20 Solo Units)

 

[StrangeKitten]

The only thing that feels off to me about Bayonetta's inclusion is we don't also have Dante. Here's to hoping Dante joins the roster next game!

 

[Lenidem]

I hate the fact that Ganondorf doesn't fight like he does in any of his boss fights - I couldn't care less about the competitive aspect.

Oh, and I still hate Piranha Plant's inclusion!

 

[DarthEnderX]

Arguably too similar visually to work as an Echo, in my opinion. Echoes should at least be distinct in a visual sense.

I also don't approve of clones/echos that are from a different franchise than the character they are cloning/echoing.

Currently, Ganondorf is the only one of those left in Smash, and people are constantly requesting he be fully decloned from Falcon, and for Black Shadow to inherit his old moveset.

But you'd think it'd cool down by this point.

I'm STILL mad about Ice Climbers...

I'm not expecting Ultimate itself to continue to get new content except in the form of a Deluxe port.

I agree.

...and then after 5 years, SSBU Deluxe just starts getting DLC again. Just like MK8 Deluxe.

 

[fogbadge]

I think Bayonetta's inclusion becomes less strange with time. Not only is Bayonetta starting to become a more active and successful series, but its continued presence as a Nintenso exclusive is making her seem more "at home" in something like Smash.

She's like Mega Man and Castlevania without the 25 years of history. We all have to start some where. Nintendo is just recognizing the series as a new partner and fostering the relationship early. You can see similar things happening with Bravely Default and Octopath Traveler nowadays. We saw it happen with Shovel Knight in the past. And Nintendo gave them preferential treatment in Smash too. Shovel Knight is the only indie Assist Trophy. Bravely Default and Octopath Traveler got spirits. Bayonetta's preferred treatment just happened in a different way. Timing probably helped a ton for her. Having Bayonetta 2 coming close to winning Game of the Year during the time of character selection probably made Nintendo feel even more confident in the franchise.

It's also important to note that Bayonetta and Devil May Cry are pretty much keeping their genre alive, and are the only ones doing it. Character action games are very rare nowadays. Bayonetta does have gaming significance in that she is a pillar of her genre. Not every series in Smash can say that.

Plus you know... even at their worst, the games are really good (writing aside).

Let's be 100% honest though, a lot of Bayonetta hate (that isn't from Smash 4 balance) comes from sexism or puritanism. People focus on the sexual aspects of the character and see it as a reason to hate. That part doesn't sit right with me but I don't expect to change those opinions because they're pretty set in their ways.

i still feel ill every time i look at her. and that's not even me being mean that actually happens

 

[Swamp Sensei]

i still feel ill every time i look at her. and that's not even me being mean that actually happens

You probably need therapy then. That isn't healthy.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I finally beat TotK and holy **** is Ganondorf and his fight so awesome. I'm now 90% confident that this will be the Ganondorf we'll get in the next Smash game, like there's no way you can even remotely condense this version of Ganondorf into Falcondorf, they have to make a whole new moveset for him.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm STILL mad about Ice Climbers...

I never even knew you were. I'm surprised.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Vanpool is shutting down; studio was behind Nintendo's Dillon's Rolling Western series, worked on recent Kirby games, made the Tingle DS titles https://t.co/b82tLtwldW pic.twitter.com/6gPKMJUZFx

— Nintendo Everything (@NinEverything) May 31, 2023

Another Nintendo-affiliated dev goes under. This one's especially surprising given they helped with the recent Kirby games: you'd think that would've been enough for awhile...

 

[fogbadge]

You probably need therapy then. That isn't healthy.

what you’ve never been made I’ll by looking at something before?

people say such odd things at times

 

[TCT~Phantom]

what you’ve never been made I’ll by looking at something before?

people say such odd things at times

Most people do not feel physically unwell seeing a video game character in a children’s fighting game. Having that reaction to seeing a fictional character is not healthy in the slightest.

At best, you are either mad about the ballot or some sort of puritan. Either way, it’s 2023. Bayo is sanitized for Smash and the ballot gave us plenty of fan favorites in ultimate. Who cares? It’s been almost a decade since the ballot happened. We got plenty of beloved characters in Ultimate due to it. If you are upset about the fact she “won” the ballot of “realizable” characters a decade ago, chill out.

At worst, we can take what you are saying at face value. In which case, you have this irrational visceral reaction to a video game character in a children’s fighting game for the Nintendo switch. I think most people can say that is an overreaction to say the least.

 

[StrangeKitten]

what you’ve never been made I’ll by looking at something before?

people say such odd things at times

Oh, there are things that would make me ill to look at for sure. I have PTSD.

But Bayonetta isn't even in the same ballpark as things I can't look at. She's just a cool lady. I guess if you're very puritanical, her being a witch who uses her sexuality to gain the upper hand in battle and be stylish probably isn't your favorite thing, but even then, that's toned way down in Smash. I'm honestly struggling to see what's so bad about her in Smash that one would feel ill, especially in comparison to all the things out there that are far more gross and/or disturbing.

Do you have an irrational fear of Bayonetta? Because this is starting to make me think about how, needles aren't really that bad but I struggle to look at them because I've developed a phobia of them.

 

[fogbadge]

sigh here comes seifer and the smashboards disciplinary committee

Most people do not feel physically unwell seeing a video game character in a children’s fighting game.[

first of all it's got a 12 rating so it's a teens game. granted that's not much of a distinction but still

Having that reaction to seeing a fictional character is not healthy in the slightest.

what you've never been grossed out by something before? there's hundreds of fictional characters made to look deliberately hideous and there is such a thing as squmishness in the world. are you suggesting theres something with such people?

At best, you are either mad about the ballot or some sort of puritan.

i don't know how you got either of those things from what i've said. i said nothing about the ballot and more to the point my favrouite 3rd party character won it

Either way, it’s 2023. Bayo is sanitized for Smash and the ballot gave us plenty of fan favorites in ultimate.

being a fan favourite doesn't mean you have to like them. forcing yourself to like something you don't now that would be healthy

Who cares?

evidently you do otherwise you wouldn't respond

It’s been almost a decade since the ballot happened. We got plenty of beloved characters in Ultimate due to it. If you are upset about the fact she “won” the ballot of “realizable” characters a decade ago, chill out.[.quote]

i love how you're telling me to chill out over something you've yet to confirm is what's happening

At worst, we can take what you are saying at face value. In which case, you have this irrational visceral reaction to a video game character in a children’s fighting game for the Nintendo switch. I think most people can say that is an overreaction to say the least.

you really do fill in the blanks with what ever takes your fancy.

you know phantom ever time you talk to me you accuse me of all sorts. i get that you're determined to hate me but you could try leaving me alone?

Oh, there are things that would make me ill to look at for sure. I have PTSD.

But Bayonetta isn't even in the same ballpark as things I can't look at. She's just a cool lady. I guess if you're very puritanical, her being a witch who uses her sexuality to gain the upper hand in battle and be stylish probably isn't your favorite thing, but even then, that's toned way down in Smash. I'm honestly struggling to see what's so bad about her in Smash that one would feel ill, especially in comparison to all the things out there that are far more gross and/or disturbing.

where is everyone getting puritanical from? i just said she makes me ill. i can't explain it she just does. it's got nothing to do with her being sexulized cause pyra and mythra don't cause this reaction. i do not understand the problem, how is finding a fictional character gross any worse than finding anything else in the world gross. and it's just insulting to imply i have a problem because of it.

Do you have an irrational fear of Bayonetta? Because this is starting to make me think about how, needles aren't really that bad but I struggle to look at them because I've developed a phobia of them.

that is a huge conclusion to jump to

 

[StrangeKitten]

sigh here comes seifer and the smashboards disciplinary committee

I think the rest of us here are not understanding the problem, too. We're not trying to accuse you or jump to conclusions, we're simply trying to ask questions because we're curious why you have this reaction.

It just doesn't make sense to us, You bring up that there are fictional characters made to look hideous, and while that's true, Bayonetta isn't one. She's a woman. Let's say you went to the market, and so did Bayonetta. The only thing that would really stand out about her is she's much taller than the average woman. You might not even pay much mind to her tights and gun heels, assuming she was wearing her normal outfit in the first place, and not something more fitting for the market like a dress. You can't say that about, say, Mara from Persona 5.

 

[fogbadge]

I think the rest of us here are not understanding the problem, too. We're not trying to accuse you or jump to conclusions, we're simply trying to ask questions because we're curious why you have this reaction.

It just doesn't make sense to us, You bring up that there are fictional characters made to look hideous, and while that's true, Bayonetta isn't one. She's a woman. Let's say you went to the market, and so did Bayonetta. The only thing that would really stand out about her is she's much taller than the average woman. You might not even pay much mind to her tights and gun heels, assuming she was wearing her normal outfit in the first place, and not something more fitting for the market like a dress. You can't say that about, say, Mara from Persona 5.

that comment was about phantom not you. i'd already started writing when your reply came up. you may be curious but phantom hates my guts

there isn't a problem though. i just have this reaction at times, and when i say ill i don't mean i want to vomit just queasiness. and just because a characters designed to look "sexy" doesn't mean you have to think they look that way, beauty in the eye of the beholder. there isn't a reason for why this happens but then my brains wired different from what's usual so there often isn't. it doesn't make any sense but it doesn't have too. plus the way you react to something in fiction certainly wouldn't be the way you'd react in real life.

i don't remember mara

 

[Gengar84]

I can only speak for myself but I’ve never really been too big a fan of Bayonetta either. Not to the point that she makes me ill or gets me upset. I’m totally fine with her being in since she got so many votes and she just makes sense having two games exclusive to Nintendo.

My main two issues with her are her proportions and the fact that it feels (to me) like they are trying too hard to make her cool and edgy. She always just looked weird to me with her tiny head and lanky body. I’m not really huge on her design otherwise but there are plenty of worse characters. I do feel like her design has gotten worse with each subsequent game but that’s just my subjective opinion. Her attitude kind of gives me reboot Dante vibes. They aren’t actually all that similar but both seem like they are trying to be edgy just for the sake of being edgy. I actually bought the first Bayonetta because the gameplay looked fun. Her moveset in Smash is pretty cool too. At the end of the day, Smash getting a few characters I don’t personally care for is fine since there are already so many I do. It isn’t realistic for everyone to like every character and that’s fine by me.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

sigh here comes seifer and the smashboards disciplinary committee

This ain’t it Chief.

You compare Bayonetta, who is at worst a taller than average woman, to characters created to be reviled and/or disgusting. Bayonetta is just a woman who has control over her sexuality. Comparing her to characters designed to be disgusting is just wrong. If anything, it almost reads as a bit sexist to me to even make that comparison. Bayonetta is just a strong woman who has agency over her own sexuality. Discussing your distaste for her in the same breath as characters designed to be disgusting is not it dude.

You are having this visceral of a reaction to a character in a children’s fighting game. You went on this tangent just because someone brought up a Smash Bros character on a Smash Bros website. Your reaction is far more extreme than it needs to be.

 

[StrangeKitten]

that comment was about phantom not you. i'd already started writing when your reply came up. you may be curious but phantom hates my guts

there isn't a problem though. i just have this reaction at times, and when i say ill i don't mean i want to vomit just queasiness. and just because a characters designed to look "sexy" doesn't mean you have to think they look that way, beauty in the eye of the beholder. there isn't a reason for why this happens but then my brains wired different from what's usual so there often isn't. it doesn't make any sense but it doesn't have too. plus the way you react to something in fiction certainly wouldn't be the way you'd react in real life.

i don't remember mara

Well, I'll spare you the image, but I'll just say that Mara is a character designed to be disgusting. The kind of character I'd understand if someone felt ill looking at. You can search up "Mara Persona 5" if you're morbidly curious, but I don't recommend doing so.

 

[Gengar84]

Well, I'll spare you the image, but I'll just say that Mara is a character designed to be disgusting. The kind of character I'd understand if someone felt ill looking at. You can search up "Mara Persona 5" if you're morbidly curious, but I don't recommend doing so.

I’m not sure how that ever made it into a game without an AO rating but I don’t play too many M games so maybe it’s more common than I thought. I do really enjoy Persona’s 3-5 but some of their monster/summon designs are kind of weird. I suppose there is some humor and charm to those gross out designs in their own way.

Then again maybe I just have a dirty mind because I could never look at Kakuna and not see that lol.

 

[Speed Weed]

Bayo's inclusion is good cause it got the After Burner theme in Smash, end of discussion bye

 

[fogbadge]

This ain’t it Chief.

You compare Bayonetta, who is at worst a taller than average woman, to characters created to be reviled and/or disgusting. Bayonetta is just a woman who has control over her sexuality. Comparing her to characters designed to be disgusting is just wrong. If anything, it almost reads as a bit sexist to me to even make that comparison. Bayonetta is just a strong woman who has agency over her own sexuality. Discussing your distaste for her in the same breath as characters designed to be disgusting is not it dude.

You are having this visceral of a reaction to a character in a children’s fighting game. You went on this tangent just because someone brought up a Smash Bros character on a Smash Bros website. Your reaction is far more extreme than it needs to be.

see you’re doing it again, your accusing me of all sorts. if anyone is having an extreme reaction it’s you, but that’s normal considering how you usually behave. And accusing me of being nearly sexist for having problems with a character who is basically a living depiction of everything that’s ever been used as example of why video game characters are sexist is a truly baffling stance to take

also it proves you don’t actually read my posts cause I explained it had nothing to do with her sexualisation

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I’m not sure how that ever made it into a game without an AO rating but I don’t play too many M games so maybe it’s more common than I thought. I do really enjoy Persona’s 3-5 but some of their monster/summon designs are kind of weird. I suppose there is some humor and charm to those gross out designs in their own way.

Then again maybe I just have a dirty mind because I could never look at Kakuna and not see that lol.

View attachment 372773

Metapod can be worse, especially as the anime had a "Harden only" battle. Nuff said.

No, the dub doesn't skip or even remotely edit this episode. Misty pulls out a lawnchair and sits in a bikini during it, further leaning into the joke.

But yeah, SMT and Persona's designs are weird and crazy. I also admittedly am not bothered slightly by Mara's design, but it's clearly mean to be ridiculous on its own. ...Made funnier when used against some bosses too.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

It’s been almost a decade since the ballot happened. We got plenty of beloved characters in Ultimate due to it. If you are upset about the fact she “won” the ballot of “realizable” characters a decade ago, chill out.

Okay, wait a moment. I don't find Bayonetta a problem by herself, never did. But please don't dismiss what the ballot caused as a result of Ultimate's decisions. Not everyone's happy with the way everything turned out.

 

[Gengar84]

Okay, wait a moment. I don't find Bayonetta a problem by herself, never did. But please don't dismiss what the ballot caused as a result of Ultimate's decisions. Not everyone's happy with the way everything turned out.

Yeah, there was a lot of controversy about her status as the ballot winner. I feel like it doesn’t matter much since Ultimate came soon after and she would have at least made it in by then regardless.

I also think it’s totally fine to dislike a character’s design and that doesn’t make someone sexist. While fogbadge tends to word things too harshly and can come off as inconsiderate, and at times a bit rude, he wasn’t making personal attacks and accusations like Phantom. I think you both need to chill out a bit.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, there was a lot of controversy about her status as the ballot winner. I feel like it doesn’t matter much since Ultimate came soon after and she would have at least made it in by then regardless.

I also think it’s totally fine to dislike a character’s design and that doesn’t make someone sexist. While fogbadge tends to word things too harshly and can come off as inconsiderate, and at times a bit rude, he wasn’t making personal attacks and accusations like Phantom. I think you both need to chill out a bit.

well I am autistic so I don’t realise I’m doing it

 

[StrangeKitten]

Metapod can be worse, especially as the anime had a "Harden only" battle. Nuff said.

No, the dub doesn't skip or even remotely edit this episode. Misty pulls out a lawnchair and sits in a bikini during it, further leaning into the joke.

Oh. Oh that's why she did that. I've always had the much more innocent interpretation that she got so bored and knew the battle would keep dragging on, she decided she'd work on her tan in lieu of anything else to do

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh. Oh that's why she did that. I've always had the much more innocent interpretation that she got so bored and knew the battle would keep dragging on, she decided she'd work on her tan in lieu of anything else to do

It's pretty common for anime to get away with innuendo/jokes as long as they are not straight out specific. It's mainly catchable by those who are teenagers and adults who would already know this kind of thing, which is why it works. Only obvious stuff gets censored, so. And lots of stuff won't make it into the originals either, heh.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hey I didn't like Bayonetta and especially Cloud too back in the day. I felt they cheated out K.Rool whom I and many more felt was the absolute true winner. We got K.Rool a few years later, all is forgiven. Bayonetta is a honorary Nintendo character now, and Cloud has been a massive deemed impossible request for ages. There's strong reasoning for their inclusion, and it's best to keep opinions out as what can you do? You'll play the game regardless, best to keep it fun.

However, Bayonetta and Cloud DID "ruin" Smash 4's competitive scene in a way. So I get that part at least.

 

[chocolatejr9]

However, Bayonetta and Cloud DID "ruin" Smash 4's competitive scene in a way. So I get that part at least.

It's true: people were more upset about that then they were Corrin's inclusion...

 

[DarthEnderX]

I never even knew you were. I'm surprised.

I'm a huge fan of retro picks, but not ones that were NEVER popular and never got sequels.

 

[Ivander]

I also think it’s totally fine to dislike a character’s design and that doesn’t make someone sexist. While fogbadge tends to word things too harshly and can come off as inconsiderate, and at times a bit rude, he wasn’t making personal attacks and accusations like Phantom. I think you both need to chill out a bit.

I don't think their issues are what others claim, but if there's anything I really noticed is how much of a contrarian they try to be. Like it's one thing for people to not like what others like, but they have this absolute need to say "Not me." or "But you're wrong." or "Except me." when people show evidence of something being received positively/negatively, liked/disliked, etc. It doesn't help their case that they feel like they have to keep speaking or prove why something is not good or how their opinion is the correct one(an issue that some other board members here have as well).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm a huge fan of retro picks, but not ones that were NEVER popular and never got sequels.

What if Ice Climbers got a mega successful reboot?

 

[DarthEnderX]

What if Ice Climbers got a mega successful reboot?

Then they'd have still been picked for Smash 20 years too early.

 

[RodNutTakin]

you probably wouldn't like my opinion that we should've gotten one of the Pro Wrestling fighters instead of Incineroar then
especially since it's one of the few post-Famicom first party games that has absolutely nothing in Smash whatsoever

 

[Ivander]

Then they'd have still been picked for Smash 20 years too early.

Yes, I know he says 10 years too early, but he said it twice and two 10s make a 20.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Since we are talking about Bayonetta, 3rd Parties and Smash Ballot, good time to have this topic.

How should 3rd Parties be handle in terms of representation? Should be a focus on variety of IPs from a few companies or the guest style route with one IP per Company?

Should be for example Sega with Sonic, Bayo, Joker but with a lot less companies in mix or should be Sega=Sonic, SE=Cloud, Konami=Snake etc but with more companies involved

 

[Perkilator]

Since we are talking about Bayonetta, 3rd Parties and Smash Ballot, good time to have this topic.

How should 3rd Parties be handle in terms of representation? Should be a focus on variety of IPs from a few companies or the guest style route with one IP per Company?

Not entirely related, but I’ve been saying for a while that there are plenty of characters and IP’s from the represented companies alone that, assuming they weren’t able to make the playable status, would make for great minor content like songs, Spirits, Assist Trophies, etc.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Then they'd have still been picked for Smash 20 years too early.

Or they got a mega successful reboot 20 years too late, depending on how you look at it...

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm a huge fan of retro picks, but not ones that were NEVER popular and never got sequels.

Even if they were a success?

you probably wouldn't like my opinion that we should've gotten one of the Pro Wrestling fighters instead of Incineroar then
especially since it's one of the few post-Famicom first party games that has absolutely nothing in Smash whatsoever

Why not have both?

Though, I often wonder how a Pro Wrestling stage would be different from the Punch-Out!! stage.