Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

You could make anyone a fighter. It doesn't mean you should.

Would you want Beedle to be a fighter on being highly recurrent in Zelda or Anna to be a fighter for being highly recurrent and sometimes fighting in Fire Emblem?

the lols

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You could make anyone a fighter. It doesn't mean you should.

Would you want Beedle to be a fighter on being highly recurrent in Zelda or Anna to be a fighter for being highly recurrent and sometimes fighting in Fire Emblem?

Anna isn't an unpopular idea for a Smash rep.

I'll agree that not everyone should be a fighter, but drawing the line at Ashley seems very strange.

 

[Wunderwaft]

You could make anyone a fighter. It doesn't mean you should.

Would you want Beedle to be a fighter on being highly recurrent in Zelda or Anna to be a fighter for being highly recurrent and sometimes fighting in Fire Emblem?

Neither of those characters are similair to Ashley's situation though and I don't know why you're using them as a comparision in all honesty. You still haven't given a good reason why Ashley shouldn't be a fighter when she has been shown to be the most popular character in WarioWare besides the titular man himself, and has also shown to have the potential to create an interesting moveset without digging deep into mental gymnastics. She's a witch that casts magic and has a minion that fights with her, what more needs to be said?

Also Anna fits as a fighter pick

 

[Quillion]

IDK man, maybe there's just a lot of room for weirdness that ATs can have that fighters can't (or at least shouldn't). I think transplanting Negative Zone to her fits more with her character as an AT rather than a fighter.

 

[Ivander]

Persona 5 will make a collab, killing off the game one year later: No Fear (Again)

Granblue Fantasy and Another Eden are still active despite their Persona 5 collabs(and supposedly, the latter had 2).

 

[osby]

Speaking of Ashley, Smash has a notable habit of giving magic users some unique gameplay catch: Zelda had her transformation, Palutena was tied to custom moves, Robin and Hero had to source manage, Rosalina has a puppet, etc.

Not that she absolutely needs one but what kind of special mechanic could Ashley come with?

 

[Quillion]

Speaking of Ashley, Smash has a notable habit of giving magic users some unique gameplay catch: Zelda had her transformation, Palutena was tied to custom moves, Robin and Hero had to source manage, Rosalina has a puppet, etc.

Not that she absolutely needs one but what kind of special mechanic could Ashley come with?

Hopefully one that's visible on her character model and not the UI.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If Castlevania got a third character then i could easily see Alucard getting a spot.

I just dont see Castlevania getting a third character.

Even after the earthshaking new Castlevania release of...Dead Cells DLC?!

If they ever add Zero i hope they add some of his moves from the Megaman Zero series.

Otherwise all he'd have is his sword.

He already has a pretty complete smash moveset in MMX 4,5,6.

You could just port his MMX5(which was really the climax if his MMX storyline) moveset, and he'd feel totally complete.

Some AT won't come back methinks... I miss the Helirin.

With Kuru Kuru Kururin just now FINALLY being released in NA? How can Helirin NOT return?

 

[Wunderwaft]

IDK man, maybe there's just a lot of room for weirdness that ATs can have that fighters can't (or at least shouldn't). I think transplanting Negative Zone to her fits more with her character as an AT rather than a fighter.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think Ashley has a lot of potential as a fighter but if you can't see it as well then there's not really much to discuss.

Speaking of Ashley, Smash has a notable habit of giving magic users some unique gameplay catch: Zelda had her transformation, Palutena was tied to custom moves, Robin and Hero had to source manage, Rosalina has a puppet, etc.

Not that she absolutely needs one but what kind of special mechanic could Ashley come with?

One idea I've always enjoyed throwing around is the idea of a neutral special move that changes depending on the last hits inflicted on the opponent, it's a mechanic inspired from Nine from Blazblue. The gimmick I have in mind for Ashley is that some of her normal attacks and specials have an attribute to them (fire, thunder etc.) and everytime she hits the opponent that attribute is registered, she can register up to like two or three attributes and depending on the mix it can cause her neutral special to be a different spell.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If hypothetically there were to be a new official ballot, which characters would most likely rank within the top 10? Waluigi would be the most obvious one, but what other characters are possible?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Not that she absolutely needs one but what kind of special mechanic could Ashley come with?

Being included with the introduction of the Mii Mage.

 

[Speed Weed]

What's funny is that even in a premise where video game franchises have been transformed into sapient entities, the most unrealistic thing about the setting is the idea that Sega of America and Sega of Japan were able to cooperate and thrive for an extended period of time.

Hey so uh. Funny story about that.

So that whole "SEGA of America vs. SEGA of Japan" narrative. Yeah. People love to throw that one around, don't they? Yeah see well. Uh. Here's the thing.

The idea of a rivalry between SoA and SoJ is kinda bunk, at least in the Mega Drive era where that narrative is most frequently thrown around. For the longest time people just believed stuff like that Console Wars book which only really tells the American side of the story of a company whose vast majority of celebrated output comes from Japan. But recently findings have been made and previously obscure info has been dug up that kinda points to the idea that that whole "SoA were the epic cool side that singlehandedly saved the company from le evil japanese" is bull****.

SoJ didn't resent SoA's success. Most of SoJ's management at the time was supportive of SoA. They were happy with the latter's success since the money ultimately flowed back to the parent company. Hayao Nakayama was one of Tom Kalinske's biggest supporters, and he basically let SoA do whatever they wanted. I recommend you read this thread on the SEGA-16 forums, particularly Gryson's posts:

Japan execs were upset that Kalinske was allowed to resign w/o taking blame for 32X

I'm trawling old Japanese newspapers for Sega info from the 90s. What a gold mine of untapped info this is. I came across this article from the March 16, 1998 issue of the Nikkei Shinbun titled "Sega plunges into the red without anyone taking blame". It features quotes from then-Sega...

www.sega-16.com

The narrative kind of changes and develops as the thread goes on, but ultimately the common thread is that the 32X, which people looooove to paint as being entirely the fault of Le Evil Japanese, was a result of cooperation between the two sides, and even in the more one-sided version of the story, it still shows SoJ letting SoA have their way. People just love to paint this as some grand soap opera because they've gotten their info entirely from sources that only tell one side of the story, and that leads to these completely uninformed, disparaging statements that sometimes feel like they almost border on xenophobia.

 

[osby]

Hopefully one that's visible on her character model and not the UI.

Hopefully, we get a fighter with a baseball gauge in the next Smash game.

(yes, this is from an actual fighting game)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Hey so uh. Funny story about that.

So that whole "SEGA of America vs. SEGA of Japan" narrative. Yeah. People love to throw that one around, don't they? Yeah see well. Uh. Here's the thing.

The idea of a rivalry between SoA and SoJ is kinda bunk, at least in the Mega Drive era where that narrative is most frequently thrown around. For the longest time people just believed stuff like that Console Wars book which only really tells the American side of the story of a company whose vast majority of celebrated output comes from Japan. But recently findings have been made and previously obscure info has been dug up that kinda points to the idea that that whole "SoA were the epic cool side that singlehandedly saved the company from le evil japanese" is bull****.

SoJ didn't resent SoA's success. Most of SoJ's management at the time was supportive of SoA. They were happy with the latter's success since the money ultimately flowed back to the parent company. Hayao Nakayama was one of Tom Kalinske's biggest supporters, and he basically let SoA do whatever they wanted. I recommend you read this thread on the SEGA-16 forums, particularly Gryson's posts:

Japan execs were upset that Kalinske was allowed to resign w/o taking blame for 32X

I'm trawling old Japanese newspapers for Sega info from the 90s. What a gold mine of untapped info this is. I came across this article from the March 16, 1998 issue of the Nikkei Shinbun titled "Sega plunges into the red without anyone taking blame". It features quotes from then-Sega...

www.sega-16.com

The narrative kind of changes and develops as the thread goes on, but ultimately the common thread is that the 32X, which people looooove to paint as being entirely the fault of Le Evil Japanese, was a result of cooperation between the two sides, and even in the more one-sided version of the story, it still shows SoJ letting SoA have their way. People just love to paint this as some grand soap opera because they've gotten their info entirely from sources that only tell one side of the story, and that leads to these completely uninformed, disparaging statements that sometimes feel like they almost border on xenophobia.

I never claimed that SoA was the competent branch being sabotaged by the jealous SoJ, simply said that they didn't often work together as well as they could have in various many instances which I don't think has been entirely disproven. Truth be told both of them made critical mistakes at various occasions and both sides have a vested interest in portraying themselves as the more competent group. Sega doesn't get to the point it does circa 2001 without major errors happening both back home and the West, with a lack of greater synergy post Megadrive/Genesis being a part of that to a degree.

 

[Speed Weed]

I never claimed that SoA was the competent branch being sabotaged by the jealous SoJ one, simply that they didn't often work together as well as they could have in various many instances which I don't think has been entirely disproven. Truth be told both of them made critical mistakes at various occasions and both sides have a vested interest in portraying themselves as the more competent group. Sega doesn't get to the point it does circa 2001 without major errors happening both back home and the West, with a lack of greater synergy post Megadrive/Genesis being a part of that.

understandable and you are right, I misconstrued what you said, have a nice day

 

[MrMcNuts]

If hypothetically there were to be a new official ballot, which characters would most likely rank within the top 10? Waluigi would be the most obvious one, but what other characters are possible?

Probably similar to most polls. No specific order:

Crash
Waluigi
Rayman
Phoenix
Bandana Dee
Doom
Dante
Geno
Master Chief
Maybe Issac?

 

[Speed Weed]

In other news, since we were talking about assists, I just beat For the Frog the Bell Tolls, and man, what a fun game. I don't think the Sablé Prince should really be much of a priority, there are other retros I'd take before him, but he'd still be a really fun fighter.

Also the main overworld theme not being a track in Smash is a crime

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

understandable and you are right, I misconstrued what you said, have a nice day

Its entirely understandable. I mean I even had my eyes opened a bit reading about the two branches on the Sonic Retro forum and getting a greater understanding about how nuanced things really were in the mid to late 90s. Part of the issue is that (much like the American lore of Sonic) Sega of America has simply been in an easier position to get its story told to a Western audience; with even Console Wars itself is written practically like a fictional novel with Kalinskie as its protagonist in many ways. As a result, the key mistakes and general issues SoA genuinely had have been downplayed. Heck watching Sega Lord X on YouTube has been revealing in just how dubious many of the American studios attempts at games often were in the 16 bit era compared to their Japanese counterparts, which is an aspect entirely lost in the narrative about the successful Genesis vs the unsuccessful Megadrive

A book or documentary that really gives a fair shake to what the situation was for the entire company circa 1990 to 2000 feels long overdue, especially when it could tell the story of various Japanese Sega franchises that have often gone unnoticed in the West even now.

 

[Speed Weed]

Its entirely understandable. I mean I even had my eyes opened a bit reading about Sega on the Sonic Retro forum and getting a greater understanding about how nuanced things really were in the mid to late 90s. Part of the issue is that (much like the American lore of Sonic) Sega of America has simply been in an easier position to get its story told to a Western audience; with even Console Wars itself is written practically like a fictional novel with Kalinskie as its protagonist in many ways. As a result, the key mistakes and general issues the SoA genuinely had have been downplayed. Heck watching Sega Lord X on YouTube has been revealing in just how dubious many of the American studios attempts at games often were in the 16 bit era compared to their Japanese counterparts which is an aspect entirely lost in tellings about the successful Genesis vs the unsuccessful Megadrive

A book or documentary that really gives a fair shake to what the situation was for the entire company circa 1990 to 2000 feels long overdue, especially when it could tell the story of various Japanese Sega franchises that have often gone unnoticed in the West even now.

Absolutely! A more nuanced take on the situation that can be shown to a wider audience would be great. I know a dude who's recommended an episode of the podcast They Create Worlds for a more accurate SEGA history take, but I haven't listened to it yet. Again, I apologize, I saw you talking about failing to cooperate and all that and thought you meant the dramatized "rivalry" narrative, and not the simpler genuine mistakes that actually did happen

 

[HyperSomari64]

The girl from the 404 game i want the most for Smash is OutRun-chan or whatever the PECK her name is.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

If that 404 game is looking for Sega video game franchises that could work as heroic characters in a futuristic setting, they could do a lot worse than a personified Burning Rangers.

 

[HyperSomari64]

If that 404 game is looking for Sega video game franchises that could work as heroic characters in a futuristic setting, they could do a lot worse than a personified Burning Rangers.

Just imagine a personified Vectorman

List of Sega video game franchises - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can we have a personified Jurassic Park or a personified Home Alone?

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Honestly, I just think Ashley isn't really fighter material.

Isaac definitely is, and while I think AT is the best spot for Waluigi "Mr. Spin-off", he probably could get in on fan demand.

But Ashley being a fighter just seems forced, and she doesn't even have the protagonist status like Villager does to force it either.

They made a fighter out of a fitness trainer, a toy, and a potted plant. If they wanted to they could just as easily do so for Ashley. It isn’t even that big a leap as you are suggesting. Is it really that hard to imagine a witch doing magic stuff in a fight? It’s honestly pretty easy to picture Ashley having a magic based moveset in Smash.

Drawing the line at Ashley just feels weird. We have had far, far more out there characters be made into fighters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They made a fighter out of a fitness trainer, a toy, and a potted plant. If they wanted to they could just as easily do so for Ashley. It isn’t even that big a leap as you are suggesting. Is it really that hard to imagine a witch doing magic stuff in a fight? It’s honestly pretty easy to picture Ashley having a magic based moveset in Smash.

Drawing the line at Ashley just feels weird. We have had far, far more out there characters be made into fighters.

I can understand where some might see "how can I balance this moveset and make it look interesting" in some cases(it's sometimes hard to see Bomberman work perfectly, but he's absolutely doable), but yeah, this makes little sense. We have generic magical users like Peach and Zelda. And even magical karate with Ganondorf. It's pretty easy to work with.

Like, if you want a character who doesn't have an outright clear ability, go look at Toad for a moment. What makes him stand out? Even then, what makes it hard to come up with a moveset? There's 30+ Power-Ups that can be turned into something. He's an item guy even in Super Mario Bros. 3, being the shop owner. Perfect.

And that's just one example of how easy it is to imagine a concept~

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Since today's the Super Bowl, I present a new concept for a fighter:

Spoiler

NFL BLITZ PLAYER!!!!!!!

/S

 

[SPEN18]

On Ashley, I don't think there is any issue with giving her a moveset. Also WarioWare has done well enough overall that I don't think giving it a second character would look out-of-step. An issue with Ashley for me, merit-wise, is that her side-character syndrome is pretty bad, like way worse than the likes of other side characters we've had in Smash like Rosalina and Palutena. At least someone like Falco is just a clone. The only remotely comparable situation I can think of right now is, like, Pokémon, where you similarly have a large number of characters of relatively equal role-wise importance, only with some being way more popular and marketed than the others. Then again, it's not like Ashley was ever as marketed or publicly visible as the most iconic and popular Pokémon are. So, yeah, it's just an interesting case because there's no reason to say that we should never get side characters but side characters are also more difficult to justify, especially if they're not part of a mainstream mega-franchise like mainline Mario or Pokémon. With all of that said, I wouldn't hate a second WarioWare rep; I'm just unsure if I'd ever end up prioritizing one enough for them to actually get in.

 

[Quillion]

I think SPEN hit on something I couldn't articulate. Some side characters are just so... "side" that they shouldn't be made fighters no matter how recurring they are.

It's the same reason why Waluigi should stay an AT, since he'll never be anything more than the Spin-off King.

 

[Perkilator]

One fun idea I had is this Smash what if: What if Ultimate had that extra year of development time? Here are my rules/guidelines for Ultimate in this scenario.

1. We still only get two fighters passes. Our DLC characters top our at 11 or 12 depending on if Plant makes the base game.
2. In terms of unique characters, the base game might get somewhere between 4-new ones in this scenario. Echos idk, that’s up to your judgement.
3. I doubt in this scenario EiH is gonna suddenly not happen just because we move the release date from 12/8/18 to 12/8/19 or so. I’d assume broadly speaking the characters that made it into ultimate, for better or for worse, won’t make it.

So that’s the lens for this what it. I’ll give my thoughts.

I am gonna be a bit boring for the base game and just say that we get Plant, Min Min, and Aegis in the base game instead of during the DLC lifespan. Arms and Xenoblade 2 mainly didn’t make it into the base game due to timing. With that extra year of time, I do not think they would have as many issues there. Plant also does seem to have been worked on earlier than the other DLC characters, so I will just put her in the base game.

One of the only base game characters I think is in true danger to get the axe is Incineroar. In this timeline, Gen 8 would be coming out right before the new smash and I think there is a very good likelihood that instead of the cat we get a Gen 8 Pokémon. Out of the Gen 8 roster, I think Cinderace would be the pick in this hypothetical scenario. As for when Ken gets revealed, idk. Maybe he gets in this trailer or someone else’s, who knows.

For my last pick or two, I wanted to go with some picks that had reasonably high demand. I also wanted to have one first party and one third party character be the picks. You could honestly slot any reasonably popular first party in this slot imo. I went with Isaac for the base game. As for third party, I did not want to just assume Nintendo could negotiate with someone entirely new, so I limited myself to the companies that were in Smash during Ultimate’s lifespan. For this, I ultimately went with the Dragonborn. I debated between the Mii costumes in the Kazuya reveal since they all had their popularity noted. I almost went with Lloyd over him. Stages would probably be Venus Lighthouse and the Throat of the World. Choosing a Skyrim stage was hard but I thought the aesthetic of the mountain was neat.

Real quick as for echoes, I’m just gonna add a small number. Shadow, Dixie Kong, and Galacta Knight are my picks. I don’t have much to say on these. I guess I’d stick Shadow in the reveal trailer for Dovakhin or Isaac, idk.

Finally, DLC changes a good bit with the timetable changed. I think that some things that missed the mark content wise are more likely to get content with their characters. Maybe we get FFVII remake and Persona 5 Royal music for example. The meatier thing is that now we have two open dlc slots with Aegis and Min Min being in the base game. I think the main candidates are first party characters that would or did have big successes on the switch. My picks here are Officer Howard and Bandana Dee. I guess I would do Zone 36 as Astral Chain’s stage, predominately based on the Eastside Highway. Bandana Dee you can do either Waddle Dee Town or Alivel mall. I think Forgotten Land content would be fine given the timeframe we are working with for this game. If Sakurai could get work on Byleth done before that game even launched, I don’t doubt he could do it for a different first party.

TLDR: our base roster loses Incineroar and gets Cinderace, Isaac, Dovakhin, Aegis, Min Min, and Plant as unique picks and a couple echos. We also get Plant and Officer Howard as DLC.

Decided to make a creation thread using the same idea.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Okay, DEFINETLY looking forward to this movie. They referenced the Mario Rap, for crying out loud!

(Also, that phone number works, BTW: I got to talk to Luigi).

BTW, who was the who posted that Foreman Spike moveset? We still haven't seen him in the film, but I'm kinda curious now...

 

[SPEN18]

I think SPEN hit on something I couldn't articulate. Some side characters are just so... "side" that they shouldn't be made fighters no matter how recurring they are.

Well I can't take credit for coming up with "side-character syndrome." I wouldn't close the door on a side character being so crazily popular and recognizable that they could get in under certain circumstances, but yeah I don't think simply appearing often is all that helpful if you barely do anything when you appear.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

That's usually the kind of character i think of who would be perfect for the assist trophy role.

 

[Sucumbio]

(Also, that phone number works, BTW: I got to talk to Luigi).

Phew yay someone else called it beside me.

 

[Sucumbio]

Sorry for the double post but...

I think SPEN hit on something I couldn't articulate. Some side characters are just so... "side" that they shouldn't be made fighters no matter how recurring they are.

It's the same reason why Waluigi should stay an AT, since he'll never be anything more than the Spin-off King.

Argh. I get it but I hate it. I want to believe popularity in the fan base has to accomplish something for the next game.

 

[Gengar84]

Sorry for the double post but...



Argh. I get it but I hate it. I want to believe popularity in the fan base has to accomplish something for the next game.

Hey, we did get Piranha Plant in Ultimate and it didn’t really fit any of that criteria. I do think being a main character or being highly requested helps quite a bit but I’d say PP proves that neither is a requirement. If we can have PP, I see no reason why we couldn’t get other side characters like Waluigi.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Hey, we did get Piranha Plant in Ultimate and it didn’t really fit any of that criteria. I do think being a main character or being highly requested helps quite a bit but I’d say PP proves that neither is a requirement. If we can have PP, I see no reason why we couldn’t get other side characters like Waluigi.

On the flipside, the fact we got Plant BEFORE Waluigi says a lot about their priorities...

 

[fogbadge]

On the flipside, the fact we got Plant BEFORE Waluigi says a lot about their priorities...

considering the fact that the fandom wants waluigi over far more prominent characters I’m not sure they should be talking about priorities

 

[Gengar84]

My most wanted are just characters I like a lot. I don’t really put a lot of emphasis on whether they’re iconic or deserving enough. Sure it helps if I happen to really like a character that’s also really popular but that’s never really the starting point of why I want to see anyone in Smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

My most wanted are just characters I like a lot. I don’t really put a lot of emphasis on whether they’re iconic or deserving enough. Sure it helps if I happen to really like a character that’s also really popular but that’s never really the starting point of why I want to see anyone in Smash.

same, bro

 

[Gengar84]

Reading that over, I think I may have overused the word “really” lol.

Speaking of side characters, I’d love to see Nia from Xenoblade as its next rep in Smash. She may not be the main character but she does at least seem pretty important to the lore. She’s also my favorite character in the series.

Xenoblade 3 Spoilers

Spoiler

She was one of the two queens along with Melia in XBC3 and can later be recruited as a hero assist character in post game. That makes Nia and Melia the only two characters to play a prominent role in the main story of two Xenoblade games, which is at least something.

There are a ton of other side characters I’d love to see but Xenoblade is probably the most topical because it just came out last year and I beat it a couple weeks ago.

 

[smashkirby]

It’s funny because the Style Savvy games were huge on DS given that system had a large female install-base, on 3DS they didn’t do as well but that’s in part because Nintendo of America didn’t bother giving them physical releases and there was less games targeted towards a female audience on the console.

With the Switch’s install-base, you’d think a Style Savvy game would sell like hotcakes, especially since it’s been 15 years since the original game (this year is the anniversary as a matter of fact) people would have nostalgia for the original games.

Yeah, and THAT'S what ever-so-slightly kills my hype over the likes of Fashion Dreamer. With how insanely big the Switch has become, I was really hoping that Nintendo would have the sense to believe that the Switch might be the golden opportunity that Style Savvy has been waiting for, in regards to reaching a near-massive audience.

Frankly, no. Ashley is still far and away the most popular Wario character. Ashley's demand is one of those fanbases that quieted down due to being deconfirmed early. If a new game is announced, I expect her to pop up and be a major player again.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Ashley would be a fun playable character (One could certainly make an interesting moveset out of all of those magic spells of hers) but I'm still holding out hope for my girl, Mona.

Ever since WW Gold, Nintendo seems to be pushing her more to the forefront (more than they ever did pre-Gold, at least), and they especially did so during G.I.T.'s promotion.

I really think you could do something pretty fun with her, combining her pets AND various jobs and hobbies into one coherent moveset.

With Kuru Kuru Kururin just now FINALLY being released in NA? How can Helirin NOT return?

Ngl, I'm probably one of the few non-Japanese fans of Kururin that lost it, seeing his game get the Panel de Pon treatment...

Of course, I'd have no issue seeing him be playable in Smash either, but I'll happily take him returning as a AT.

In other news, since we were talking about assists, I just beat For the Frog the Bell Tolls, and man, what a fun game. I don't think the Sablé Prince should really be much of a priority, there are other retros I'd take before him, but he'd still be a really fun fighter.

Also the main overworld theme not being a track in Smash is a crime

I'd love to see Prince Sablé as a playable character in Smash! I'll never forget how disappointed I was to see him deconfirmed for Smash 4...

Heck, now that I think about it, his appearance in Smash honestly makes me hate the Dream Land GB stage all the more. Primarily because I was REALLY hoping for that stage to be a sort-of 'Game Boy celebration stage' where you would end up fighting in various Game Boy locales, like the Sablé Kingdom, Koholint Island, Dream Land, Sarasaland, Pencilvania (from Balloon Kid), and many more areas.