Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

I can very easily see Pauline being some kinda of assist trophy but i struggle to imagine her in some form of playable character

 

[MrMcNuts]

I can very easily see Pauline being some kinda of assist trophy but i struggle to imagine her in some form of playable character

I feel the same way, though I felt the same way with Rosalina and the she got in. Granted she kind of has Mario's moves from galaxy...


...oh lawd we getting Pauline with Cappy

 

[Quillion]

...oh lawd we getting Pauline with Cappy

That'd be really forced since Pauline has no connection with Cappy or Tiara the way Rosalina has with the Lumas.

 

[MrMcNuts]

That'd be really forced since Pauline has no connection with Cappy or Tiara the way Rosalina has with the Lumas.

Oh 100% I'm mostly joking

Maybe they'd give her attacks based on singing and instruments? Idk they'd almost have to pull a captain falcon and make up a moveset

 

[Quillion]

Oh 100% I'm mostly joking

Maybe they'd give her attacks based on singing and instruments? Idk they'd almost have to pull a captain falcon and make up a moveset

For the lattermost point, I think I'm in support of Pauline now...

No home game mechanics to try to force into Smash; just something simple yet unique.
----
You know, since my perception is that Mario isn't going to have any more new main characters from now on, is there anyone else in the franchise that they can promote to at least spin-off regular (that isn't DK, Wario, or Luigi's Mansion)?

 

[Laniv]

Do I have to get the Pauline moveset out again? I'm getting the moveset out again:

Spoiler: Pauline moveset

Jab: Slaps twice with her leading arm. Like Peach and Daisy's, but stronger and with a little more pop to it. 3%, 5%.
Forward Tilt: Takes off her hat and swats with it. 8%.
Up Tilt: Pauline jumps up with her fist in the air. It's that one motion she does during the New Donk City Festival. 4%.
Down Tilt: Swipes her leg low to the ground. 8%.
Dash Attack: Pauline spins around twice as she moves forward before posing with her hand up. 2.3% (first two hits), 6% (end).

Forward Smash: When this move is used, Pauline will take out a familiar looking hammer. There’s a sweetspot at the head of the hammer. 19% (head), 10% (handle).
Up Smash: Pauline pops up her parasol and opens it when it's above her. This move protects her from attacks from above. 3% (hit 1), 14% (hit 2).
Down Smash: Pauline throws her hat around her in a wide circle, leaving behind a rainbow trail. The hat spins around her twice, with a slightly bigger radius the second time around. 15% (max range), 11% (point blank).

Neutral Aerial: Pauline twirls her purse around her. The animation resembles Palutena's n-air. 1.5% (hits 1-4), 4.5% (hit 5).
Forward Aerial: Pauline takes her hat and swipes it downward, swinging her arm so hard she tumbles forward. This is very similar to Peach and Daisy’s f-air. 17% (hat), 14% (arm).
Back Aerial: Pauline takes her hat and swipes it backward while spinning, hitting twice. 4.7% (hit 1), 5.8% (hit 2).
Up Aerial: Pauline tosses her hat upwards a short distance. 7%.
Down Aerial: Pauline stomps downward with one leg. 8.1%.

Grab: Pauline grabs with one hand.
Pummel: Pauline knees the opponent. 1.4%.
Forward Throw: Pauline pushes the foe away with both hands. This causes the foe to trip, allowing for follow-ups. 4% (hit), 3% (throw).
Back Throw: Grabs the opponent by the arm, and forcibly yanks them around and behind her. 10%.
Up Throw: Pauline will grab the foe, bounce them on her parasol, and toss them up. 7% (hit), 4.2% (throw).
Down Throw: Pauline takes out a barrel and smashes it over the opponent's head. Her most damaging throw. 18%.

Neutral Special—Cap Throw: Pauline throws her hat in front of her like a boomerang. The range is slightly shorter than that of K. Rool’s Crownerang. Her hat spins as it flies, hitting opponents multiple times. If the button is held, the hat will home in on the nearest opponent. Much like Mega Man’s Metal Blade, the hat can be thrown in different directions by flicking the control stick after the button is pressed. Additionally, there's a 1/6 chance that Pauline’s hat will have Bonneter eyes on it when it’s thrown, but this is purely an aesthetic bonus. 5% (initial throw), 1.2% (spinning attack), 3% (return).

Side Special—New Donk Melody: Pauline takes out a microphone and sings a couple of notes. Her music moves slowly forward in the form of up to three music notes in bubbles. If one touches an opponent, they will be forced to taunt, no matter what they were doing. This specific taunt will be non cancelable If an opponent is in midair, they will taunt as soon as they touch the ground, unless they grab a ledge.

Up Special—Jack Lift: Pauline bounces off a jack/spring/whatever those things are called. It’s basically Sonic and Mega Man’s up special, with Pauline being able to act out of it. Other characters can bounce off the jack as well.

Down Special—Mini-Toy: Pauline holds up a capsule with a ? Mark on it. From there, she can cycle through a selection of Mini Toys that act like Bowser Jr.’s Mechakoopas. They don’t explode upon contact with a foe, but they can be attacked and defeated. The available toys are:

Mini-Mario: Walks forward at the same speed as Young Link's walk. Deals 5% if touched.
Mini-Luigi: Walks forward at the same speed as Mini-Mario, but will jump occasionally. Also deals 5% and makes opponents trip if they touch it.
Mini-Peach: Walks forward at the same speed as Lucario's walk. Deals 6%, launching the foe up with a parasol.
Mini-Donkey Kong: The slowest toy, but also the strongest. Deals 12%, attacking with a double-armed swing if touched.
Mini-Toad: The quickest toy, but also the weakest. Deals 4%, attacking with a spin.

Each of the Mini-Toys has a set amount of health, and only 2 can be onscreen at a time. Mario and Luigi both have 15 HP, Peach has 20 HP, DK has 25 HP, and Toad has 10 HP.

Final Smash—New Donk City Concert: A microphone appears in front of Pauline. In a flash, she summons the Super Mario Players to play that hit song, “Jump Up, Super Star!” It’s such a toe-tapping beat, that opponents will be forced to dance (taunt) along, even if they respawn! They won’t be able to recover, either, so go wild! If someone is right next to Pauline when this Final Smash is activated, they'll be launched upwards for 30% with strong knockback by the appearance of the band!

Spoiler: Images

I feel like I'm hearing "Pauline has no moveset potential", which is an argument that has been debunked several times over

 

[MrMcNuts]

Do I have to get the Pauline moveset out again? I'm getting the moveset out again:

Spoiler: Pauline moveset

Jab: Slaps twice with her leading arm. Like Peach and Daisy's, but stronger and with a little more pop to it. 3%, 5%.
Forward Tilt: Takes off her hat and swats with it. 8%.
Up Tilt: Pauline jumps up with her fist in the air. It's that one motion she does during the New Donk City Festival. 4%.
Down Tilt: Swipes her leg low to the ground. 8%.
Dash Attack: Pauline spins around twice as she moves forward before posing with her hand up. 2.3% (first two hits), 6% (end).

Forward Smash: When this move is used, Pauline will take out a familiar looking hammer. There’s a sweetspot at the head of the hammer. 19% (head), 10% (handle).
Up Smash: Pauline pops up her parasol and opens it when it's above her. This move protects her from attacks from above. 3% (hit 1), 14% (hit 2).
Down Smash: Pauline throws her hat around her in a wide circle, leaving behind a rainbow trail. The hat spins around her twice, with a slightly bigger radius the second time around. 15% (max range), 11% (point blank).

Neutral Aerial: Pauline twirls her purse around her. The animation resembles Palutena's n-air. 1.5% (hits 1-4), 4.5% (hit 5).
Forward Aerial: Pauline takes her hat and swipes it downward, swinging her arm so hard she tumbles forward. This is very similar to Peach and Daisy’s f-air. 17% (hat), 14% (arm).
Back Aerial: Pauline takes her hat and swipes it backward while spinning, hitting twice. 4.7% (hit 1), 5.8% (hit 2).
Up Aerial: Pauline tosses her hat upwards a short distance. 7%.
Down Aerial: Pauline stomps downward with one leg. 8.1%.

Grab: Pauline grabs with one hand.
Pummel: Pauline knees the opponent. 1.4%.
Forward Throw: Pauline pushes the foe away with both hands. This causes the foe to trip, allowing for follow-ups. 4% (hit), 3% (throw).
Back Throw: Grabs the opponent by the arm, and forcibly yanks them around and behind her. 10%.
Up Throw: Pauline will grab the foe, bounce them on her parasol, and toss them up. 7% (hit), 4.2% (throw).
Down Throw: Pauline takes out a barrel and smashes it over the opponent's head. Her most damaging throw. 18%.

Neutral Special—Cap Throw: Pauline throws her hat in front of her like a boomerang. The range is slightly shorter than that of K. Rool’s Crownerang. Her hat spins as it flies, hitting opponents multiple times. If the button is held, the hat will home in on the nearest opponent. Much like Mega Man’s Metal Blade, the hat can be thrown in different directions by flicking the control stick after the button is pressed. Additionally, there's a 1/6 chance that Pauline’s hat will have Bonneter eyes on it when it’s thrown, but this is purely an aesthetic bonus. 5% (initial throw), 1.2% (spinning attack), 3% (return).

Side Special—New Donk Melody: Pauline takes out a microphone and sings a couple of notes. Her music moves slowly forward in the form of up to three music notes in bubbles. If one touches an opponent, they will be forced to taunt, no matter what they were doing. This specific taunt will be non cancelable If an opponent is in midair, they will taunt as soon as they touch the ground, unless they grab a ledge.

Up Special—Jack Lift: Pauline bounces off a jack/spring/whatever those things are called. It’s basically Sonic and Mega Man’s up special, with Pauline being able to act out of it. Other characters can bounce off the jack as well.

Down Special—Mini-Toy: Pauline holds up a capsule with a ? Mark on it. From there, she can cycle through a selection of Mini Toys that act like Bowser Jr.’s Mechakoopas. They don’t explode upon contact with a foe, but they can be attacked and defeated. The available toys are:

Mini-Mario: Walks forward at the same speed as Young Link's walk. Deals 5% if touched.
Mini-Luigi: Walks forward at the same speed as Mini-Mario, but will jump occasionally. Also deals 5% and makes opponents trip if they touch it.
Mini-Peach: Walks forward at the same speed as Lucario's walk. Deals 6%, launching the foe up with a parasol.
Mini-Donkey Kong: The slowest toy, but also the strongest. Deals 12%, attacking with a double-armed swing if touched.
Mini-Toad: The quickest toy, but also the weakest. Deals 4%, attacking with a spin.

Each of the Mini-Toys has a set amount of health, and only 2 can be onscreen at a time. Mario and Luigi both have 15 HP, Peach has 20 HP, DK has 25 HP, and Toad has 10 HP.

Final Smash—New Donk City Concert: A microphone appears in front of Pauline. In a flash, she summons the Super Mario Players to play that hit song, “Jump Up, Super Star!” It’s such a toe-tapping beat, that opponents will be forced to dance (taunt) along, even if they respawn! They won’t be able to recover, either, so go wild! If someone is right next to Pauline when this Final Smash is activated, they'll be launched upwards for 30% with strong knockback by the appearance of the band!

Spoiler: Images

View attachment 366956
View attachment 366957

I feel like I'm hearing "Pauline has no moveset potential", which is an argument that has been debunked several times over

As someone who doesn't really want her I gotta say this is actually pretty tight!

 

[Laniv]

As someone who doesn't really want her I gotta say this is actually pretty tight!

Thank you! I think my main issue is that people have developed tunnel vision when it comes to certain first party series, so I like showing off what the less speculated characters can do!

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I'm hoping SRW continues it's expansion into international markets that it's been doing for the past with it's localizations in the Switch games they've made

Because i think it'd be cool how in the same vein having Kingdom hearts in smash means that by proxy things like TWEWY, FFX and the entire Disney catalogue are now a part of smash, having this other series in Smash means that by proxy a maasive chunk of Japan's entertainment industry is repped in smash in one swoop.

But as it stands right now SRW has over 50 titles over its 30 year history but only about 10 of them have been given official english translations. (with some Japan only titles getting fantranslations in recent years by dedicated fans who played the official ones and want more of it)

You know, since my perception is that Mario isn't going to have any more new main characters from now on, is there anyone else in the franchise that they can promote to at least spin-off regular (that isn't DK, Wario, or Luigi's Mansion)?

Here's how Final fantasy White Mage can still win.

 

[Batkelley]

You know, since my perception is that Mario isn't going to have any more new main characters from now on, is there anyone else in the franchise that they can promote to at least spin-off regular (that isn't DK, Wario, or Luigi's Mansion)?

Maybe Wart or Mouser? It always seemed weird to me that Birdo got to stick around after Super Mario Bros. 2, but the main villain and the other recurring boss got left behind. There's also Tatanga, who's in a similar position, having never shown up again again after the Mario Land games.

 

[Laniv]

You know, since my perception is that Mario isn't going to have any more new main characters from now on, is there anyone else in the franchise that they can promote to at least spin-off regular (that isn't DK, Wario, or Luigi's Mansion)?

People already said Wart, Mouser, and Tatanga, but I'm hoping that someone like Cappy or Madame Broode make the jump to a Mario Kart game.

Speaking of Mario Kart, I know you said someone that isn't from Luigi's Mansion, but I'm surprised E. Gadd never made it there.

 

[NintenZ]

I think Pauline could honestly be a really fun character.

Everyone likes to focus on how many references she could pull from other games but honestly you don’t even really need to reference too much. She’s a musician, and if you’ve ever played Rise in Persona 4 Arena, I-No in Guilty Gear, or Big Band in Skullgirls, you’ll know that musical-based characters are among the most fun and unique in the entire fighting game genre. You could have Pauline attack with music notes, have her pull out different instruments, have her moveset tied to jazz since she’s a jazz musician, the sky is honestly the limit with Pauline’s potential. It’s all about thinking outside of the box honestly but I think she’d make for an extraordinarily fun inclusion just on these grounds alone.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Honestly i just kinda have a hard time imagining her platforming and jumping around.

 

[osby]

Honestly i just kinda have a hard time imagining her platforming and jumping around.

If her dress is going to be a problem with some animations, they can always opt for Pauline to fight in her suit aka her best design.

 

[Quillion]

Laniv : I think I'd rather have a made-up mishmash of musical moves (alliteration not intentional) as NintenZ suggests rather than a lot of shoehorned canon elements. The former feels much less forced.

Maybe Wart or Mouser? It always seemed weird to me that Birdo got to stick around after Super Mario Bros. 2, but the main villain and the other recurring boss got left behind. There's also Tatanga, who's in a similar position, having never shown up again again after the Mario Land games.

Birdo only really sticks around since Yoshi needs a partner for teams. Same reason Daisy is a spin-off regular in the first place and why Toadette and Waluigi even exist.

I do wish we'd see the weird stuff from the Land duology come back though, especially since Daisy is a spin-off regular.

People already said Wart, Mouser, and Tatanga, but I'm hoping that someone like Cappy or Madame Broode make the jump to a Mario Kart game.

Speaking of Mario Kart, I know you said someone that isn't from Luigi's Mansion, but I'm surprised E. Gadd never made it there.

Agreed with E. Gadd, given that he has an unseen role in Sunshine.

I can't really see Cappy going anywhere beyond Odyssey though. The Broodals also step too much on the Koopalings' toes.

 

[SPEN18]

The DLC for Ultimate’s second season was in the fall of 2019. Astral Chain wasn’t even out for a week when they confirmed FP2 was in existence. It’s a big false equivalency to suggest that just because ARMS got in first Astral Chain has no shot. For starters, ARMS was one of the two things Sakurai mentioned explicitly would have gotten a playable rep if the timing was better alongside Xenoblade 2: both got in as DLC. But you also love to understate that Astral Chain was successful. It was a successful IP that Nintendo bought full ownership of from Platinum, they clearly have plans for it in the future. If they didn’t, they would have just let Platinum hold partial ownership.

The next game, whether it Ultimate DX, Smash 6, or a hard reboot, will almost undeniably be looking at primarily the switch for new content. Dismissing a new character that had a successful new game that is brimming with moveset potential just feels like a bad idea.

I think you misread what I said and meant. I was responding to a post that seemingly implied something to the effect of "if ARMS was considered more than AT material, then Astral Chain probably will be, too." Which I think does not follow logically because ARMS was a bigger game than Astral Chain. Then I pointed out that Astral Chain's timing might end up rather poor, barring a sequel; it was too late for Ult and when the next project plan is made it will probably be several years in the rearview, which is far from optimal.
I never implied ARMS precludes Astral Chain from getting in, only that ARMS getting in doesn't mean Astral Chain will get in, too. I never implied Astral Chain has no chance either; and in my next post after the one you quoted I characterized its likelihood as "borderline," meaning that I could see it missing out or getting in under various sets of circumstances.
Look, as I said it's in the >1,<2 mil sales bracket, with the context of being on a console where sales are inflated across the board due to its success. That is likely enough to give it a serious chance, but not enough to make it a slam dunk or a top priority franchise. How many Nintendo franchises not in Smash have achieved the sales levels of Astral Chain? A lot. Something like Golden Sun 1 achieved that level of success with a much smaller install base and within a historical circumstance where far fewer items were making those numbers; and with similarly poor timing it's not gotten in yet, despite a deeply passionate fanbase. ARMS and Xenoblade 2 aren't enough precedent to help Astral Chain, either, since those two games were in a comfortably higher position and, despite their initially bad timing, were still lucky enough to be on-console when the DLC rolled around. Not to mention that even within Astral Chain's roughly defined sales bracket on the Switch alone there is nonnegligible competition: stuffs like Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training and WarioWare are in that ballpark on much smaller budgets and have their own possibilities as far as characters go.
Despite all that, Astral Chain has a chance. It could become Shulk 2.0. All that I'm saying hardly guarantees it's gonna be Golden Sun 2.0. But I don't think I'm underselling it when I characterize it as a borderline likelihood.

On the chances of a sequel...it certainly looks encouraging that Nintendo would care to take over the IP from Platinum, but it guarantees nothing or else they may as well just announce the sequel right now. It will take both Nintendo and Platinum wanting to do the sequel, and Platinum's dev schedule being accommodating to it. And even if it does happen it may not be Platinum's first outing on the new hardware, which could put it in similarly wonky timing for the next Smash game on that hardware. That's all raw speculation but it illustrates the point that there's so many unknown variables regarding hypothetical and unannounced games that they're generally shaky prospects for convincing likelihood arguments.

To be clear I don't hate on Astral Chain. If I could have my dream fantasy 100-character roster then it would probably be on there. Though I do have other priorities, plenty of things I'd like to see first.

 

[Oracle Link]

Im always causing huge disscusions!
Cool!
also its weird how one of the characters with the worst moveset is mario i mean seriously he has two one off attacks and one made up move!
Seriously give him Ground pound, spin attack special and tanooki tail!

 

[fogbadge]

personally i hate the "we have all the important nintendo characters argument" who are we to say who is and isn't important. i mean who's important is gonna shift an awful lot with characters becoming more and/or less prominent in their series as time goes on. not to mention if we only stuck to the important characters it'd get kind of boring. you could argue for ages and ages over who is and isn't important, you were doing it very recently over rayman. in short importance is relative.

Im always causing huge disscusions!
Cool!
also its weird how one of the characters with the worst moveset is mario i mean seriously he has two one off attacks and one made up move!
Seriously give him Ground pound, spin attack special and tanooki tail!

oi, i caused this discussion when i asked people about first speculation. don't you be taking my credit

 

[Nabbitfan730]

anyone else miss when nintendo characters dominated speculation?

Don't worry, when Smash 6 Season rolls around and the inevitable cuts are shown, veterans will once again dominate discussion once again.

Aside from that. Personally i would say i'm mixed. Whilst i do feel at times that most of Nintendo's "important" big wigs have been played out, there are still ones that could make for the spots as others have mention with Golden Sun, Ring Fit, Rhythm Heaven, Astral Chain etc but then would be as fun as just third party? That's the real question.

Everyone likes to focus on how many references she could pull from other games but honestly you don’t even really need to reference too much.

This is going to be a spicy one but i feel when it comes to fighters especially on moveset speculation and make-up that people honestly are way too hung-up on how much things and references the fighter must have even more than having a good moveset.

Accurate portrayal are important and i do believe characters like Ganondorf do need revamps but at times you got to take creative liberaties

Take Bowser for example. I've seen Smash fans that Bowser is too much of monster than he is in modern titles, that like he's "Goldzilla 2.0" but when representing one of gaming iconic villians and Nintendo's Mascot's Main adversary, which is a better portrayal:

His monstrous self based of the classic era of games or his more pushover, comical "anti-hero" persona in modern games especially for a fighting game.

 

[Gengar84]

Don't worry, when Smash 6 Season rolls around and the inevitable cuts are shown, veterans will once again dominate discussion once again.

Aside from that. Personally i would say i'm mixed. Whilst i do feel at times that most of Nintendo's "important" big wigs have been played out, there are still ones that could make for the spots as others have mention with Golden Sun, Ring Fit, Rhythm Heaven, Astral Chain etc but then would be as fun as just third party? That's the real question.




This is going to be a spicy one but i feel when it comes to fighters especially on moveset speculation and make-up that people honestly are way too hung-up on how much things and references the fighter must have even more than having a good moveset.

Accurate portrayal are important and i do believe characters like Ganondorf do need revamps but at times you got to take creative liberaties

Take Bowser for example. I've seen Smash fans that Bowser is too much of monster than he is in modern titles, that like he's "Goldzilla 2.0" but when representing one of gaming iconic villians and Nintendo's Mascot's Main adversary, which is a better portrayal:

His monstrous self based of the classic era of games or his more pushover, comical "anti-hero" persona in modern games especially for a fighting game.

I’ve beaten Astral Chain and I can say Officer Howard would be a blast to play in Smash. The various legions they use are really cool and would have a ton of interesting gameplay possibilities. I don’t particularly care much about silent protagonists but the opposite gender you didn’t pick plays the role of your sibling and actually has a personality so I’m cool with that.

Truth be told, I’d personally rather have Jena Anderson (one of the main antagonists) since I really liked the character and her design is awesome but it would be strange to get her before Howard. The only real chance she has if if they decide Howard’s moveset is too complex for Smash but still want an Astral Chain rep. That or the possibly even less likely chance of getting a second Astral Chain character. Still, even if I don’t get Jena, I think Officer Howard would still be cool and we’d still get all the great music and cool stage.

 

[smashkirby]

Honestly, I'm just glad for the constructive criticism. For as much as I've given the idea thought, I never stopped to consider the issue of prioritizing popularity. Admittedly, I DID have an idea for a story that could get the characters directly involved, but I got worried it would end up being a ripoff of Dragon Ball Heroes so I didn't want to share it...

Anyways, thanks guys! Gave me something to think about.

If you don't mind, I kind of wanted to hear about that story you had in mind.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I think people are overestimate Pauline importance. I mean, sure she made a comeback for Odyssey, but at the end of the day she was just relevant for one level of the game (which to be fair was probably the game most iconic level, but it's still a fairly small portion of the game). This isn't like Rosalina who was important for the whole Galaxy overarching story and has a way bigger role in the whole game.

On the other hand, for the next Mario newcomer, I think people are sleeping on King boo. Luigi's mansion 3 sold more than 10 million copies, which is just huge and it has etablish the franchise as one of Mario biggest spin-off after the Kart and Party series. At the very least, I think that they'll change more heavily the moveset of Luigi to represent even more the Mansion franchise.

 

[Oracle Link]

I think people are overestimate Pauline importance. I mean, sure she made a comeback for Odyssey, but at the end of the day she was just relevant for one level of the game (which to be fair was probably the game most iconic level, but it's still a fairly small portion of the game). This isn't like Rosalina who was important for the whole Galaxy overarching story and has a way bigger role in the whole game.

On the other hand, for the next Mario newcomer, I think people are sleeping on King boo. Luigi's mansion 3 sold more than 10 million copies, which is just huge and it has etablish the franchise as one of Mario biggest spin-off after the Kart and Party series. At the very least, I think that they'll change more heavily the moveset of Luigi to represent even more the Mansion franchise.

Yeah King Boo would probably make the second most sense after Toad also smash needs more villains and undeads!
Speaking of villains which evildoers would you like to see in smash?

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Yeah King Boo would probably make the second most sense after Toad also smash needs more villains and undeads!
Speaking of villains which evildoers would you like to see in smash?

Yeah Toad would make sense, but I feel that if Nintendo had interest to put him in Smash he would have already happen. Maybe it's just because of moveset potential that he's not added yet?

And for new vilains, I'd love Raven beak from Metroid.

 

[Soy_Man]

Yeah King Boo would probably make the second most sense after Toad also smash needs more villains and undeads!
Speaking of villains which evildoers would you like to see in smash?

I feel like Smash Ultimate kinda fixed the "lack of villains" problem. And the lack of specifically undead characters didn't stick out to me.

 

[osby]

I think people are overestimate Pauline importance. I mean, sure she made a comeback for Odyssey, but at the end of the day she was just relevant for one level of the game (which to be fair was probably the game most iconic level, but it's still a fairly small portion of the game). This isn't like Rosalina who was important for the whole Galaxy overarching story and has a way bigger role in the whole game.

On the other hand, for the next Mario newcomer, I think people are sleeping on King boo. Luigi's mansion 3 sold more than 10 million copies, which is just huge and it has etablish the franchise as one of Mario biggest spin-off after the Kart and Party series. At the very least, I think that they'll change more heavily the moveset of Luigi to represent even more the Mansion franchise.

I don't think the importance argument holds much water for Mario characters after we got Piranha Plant in Ultimate.

Rosalina is pretty popular and quickly became a spin-off mainstay, not unlike Bowser Jr. and Rosalina. King Boo, on the other hand, has noticeably less frequent appearances in those during the Switch era, making me believe that his relevance to Luigi's Mansion games doesn't reflect the wider franchise significance as much as you argue.

 

[Gengar84]

King Boo would be a really cool character. I’ve always loved the designs of Boos and Goombas so I’d be excited even though I never played a Luigi’s Mansion game. I also feel like the Mario movie is going to bring more attention to Toad so his chances probably get better.

 

[DarthEnderX]

personally i hate the "we have all the important nintendo characters argument" who are we to say who is and isn't important.

The fanbase.

 

[fogbadge]

The fanbase.

so? like I said we can’t agree on who is and isn’t popular. if anything being the fan base disqualifies us

 

[Soy_Man]

I think people are overestimate Pauline importance. I mean, sure she made a comeback for Odyssey, but at the end of the day she was just relevant for one level of the game (which to be fair was probably the game most iconic level, but it's still a fairly small portion of the game). This isn't like Rosalina who was important for the whole Galaxy overarching story and has a way bigger role in the whole game.

On the other hand, for the next Mario newcomer, I think people are sleeping on King boo. Luigi's mansion 3 sold more than 10 million copies, which is just huge and it has etablish the franchise as one of Mario biggest spin-off after the Kart and Party series. At the very least, I think that they'll change more heavily the moveset of Luigi to represent even more the Mansion franchise.

Paper Mario would be my pick for a Mario newcomer. His series is long-running, and has the most distinct identity out of all the Mario spinoff stuff. He'd stand out a lot more than another Mainline Mario character, or one that's of the same artstyle. And when there's already 9 Mario characters I think that's important.

 

[Gengar84]

Paper Mario would be my pick for a Mario newcomer. His series is long-running, and has the most distinct identity out of all the Mario spinoff stuff. He'd stand out a lot more than another Mainline Mario character, or one that's of the same artstyle. And when there's already 9 Mario characters I think that's important.

That makes sense, I just wouldn’t be overly excited to see a third version of Mario, even if his moveset was completely unique. Goombella, on the other hand, is one of my most wanted first party characters. I love Goombas in general but I really found her character enjoyable beyond that. Not sure if she really has enough for a full Smash moveset but I’d love to see it.

 

[Staarih]

King Boo would be such a fun addition and kind of a left field Mario character... but then again, also kind of not? He's recognizable enough having appeared in various spin-off's, though I guess the Luigi's Mansion version itself has had rarer appearances. Luigi's Mansion 3 has done tremendously well, having sold more than 11 million and that was like a year ago, so likely even more now. I wouldn't say no to more Luigi's Mansion representation.

Come the next Smash speculation cycle, it'll be interesting to see where different Mario characters land in terms of support. Paper Mario will always be #1 for me tho.

 

[Soy_Man]

That makes sense, I just wouldn’t be overly excited to see a third version of Mario, even if his moveset was completely unique. Goombella, on the other hand, is one of my most wanted first party characters. I love Goombas in general but I really found her character enjoyable beyond that. Not sure if she really has enough for a full Smash moveset but I’d love to see it.

I get that's he's technically a variant of Mario, but if you think about it, Mario has more in common with Cloud than he does with Paper Mario. I know that sounds dumb, but Paper Mario is like, an entirely different physical form to Mario. He doesn't have internal organs. And unlike Toon Link or Young Link, I doubt they'd base Paper Mario's moveset off of Mario. Also they might not keep Dr Mario in the next game.

 

[Quillion]

personally i hate the "we have all the important nintendo characters argument" who are we to say who is and isn't important.

TBH, I think that with the "fixed cast" franchises like Mario, Kirby, and (sort of) Zelda, it's very easy to say who is and isn't important. We can't say FLUDD, Elfilin, and Skull Kid are important outside the games they appear in.

Sure, I think Mario from now on will get by on giving certain older characters their time to shine and/or promote them to spin-off regular, but does Zelda need a core main cast beyond the Triforce holders? Does Kirby need anything more than the perfect quartet of Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, and Bandana Waddle Dee?

Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and other "rotating cast" franchises will continue to accrue important characters, though, but there's the issue of those characters falling off in importance when the new hotness comes around.

 

[Gengar84]

I get that's he's technically a variant of Mario, but if you think about it, Mario has more in common with Cloud than he does with Paper Mario. I know that sounds dumb, but Paper Mario is like, an entirely different physical form to Mario. He doesn't have internal organs. Also they might not keep Dr Mario in the next game.

You make a good point. I wouldn’t be opposed to Paper Mario, I just have a personal soft spot for the Mario mooks. If I can get any variant of a Goomba or Boo, that’s probably my preferred pick. I think my number one most wanted Mario character is a generic Goomba but I’ll gladly take Goombella, King Boo, or any other variant. You could possibly even have Goombella as a Goomba alt and pull moves from both.

 

[Soy_Man]

You make a good point. I wouldn’t be opposed to Paper Mario, I just have a personal soft spot for the Mario mooks. If I can get any variant of a Goomba or Boo, that’s probably my preferred pick. I think my number one most wanted Mario character is a generic Goomba but I’ll gladly take Goombella, King Boo, or any other variant. You could possibly even have Goombella as a Goomba alt and pull moves from both.

It's really hard to come with satisfactory for movesets basic enemy fodder, that only ever do one or two things. Hence why Piranha Plant is the exception and not the rule.

 

[Quillion]

It's really hard to come with satisfactory for movesets basic enemy fodder, that only ever do one or two things. Hence why Piranha Plant is the exception and not the rule.

A fangame made it work for Goomba. A mod for the same did it for Koopa, but I can't find footage of that.

 

[Gengar84]

It's really hard to come with satisfactory for movesets basic enemy fodder, that only ever do one or two things. Hence why Piranha Plant is the exception and not the rule.

I saw a video a few years ago that had some pretty good ideas for how a Goomba could work in Smash. It helps that they’ve had so many variants over the years to pull from. I honestly think they have a lot more to work with than Piranha Plant even did.

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[Among Waddle Dees]

Does Kirby need anything more than the perfect quartet of Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, and Bandana Waddle Dee?

You might need to justify this one, because I don't necessarily agree.

 

[Quillion]

You might need to justify this one, because I don't necessarily agree.

Four is a good number for co-op multiplayer in a platformer. I really don't think they need any more than that for the "main crew".