Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tencent isn't exactly a "Western" company, though.

Oh, whoops. I guess it doesn't help that the characters felt more Western-like to me. My bad.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Very quick question, besides the Western gaming content added in Smash Bros Ultimate, what other Western companies do you see getting a rep in Smash Six?

I think 343 Industries, Ubisoft, Activision and Electronic Arts are all major contenders for getting a rep.

This is because all the companies have a good relationship with Nintendo and I think the negotiations for their companies ips would work out well.

You pretty much listed the main ones I thought of. Specifically Chief, Rayman, and Crash from the respective companies

Isn't Tencent the owner of League of Legends? If so, add them too. They're pretty buddy-buddy now.

But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if we got a Rabbid playable, and if not that, a full Rabbid costume for Mii Fighters. Rayman and one of the various Assassin's Creed characters are also big options for Ubisoft too. Though as much as Rayman does nothing for me, he really should get more stuff for his franchise. He's basically a DLC for a Rabbids game now, which is really not helping him stand out from them. Like, I get why some are annoyed that Rabbids overshadowed him, but they're just their own fun franchise and that in itself is fine. They just do so little with Rayman's own games which is the real problem. Though I guess it could be he doesn't appeal as strongly these days or something? I never played his games, so I don't know if the particular gameplay doesn't mesh that well. I know he isn't that notable in Japan(Rabbids aren't much either, mind you. The biggest thing they have is being part of a Mario crossover combo game, which is a really damn good game, but that doesn't speak strictly well of the Rabbids, just that they're good with crossovers). However, at the very least, it just shows Ubisoft is really cooperative with Nintendo~

I mean it's not just a rabbids game it's also a Mario game, that will likely sell well like the last one. With him getting his own DLC chapter that'll for sure give him a boost in relevancy, and hopefully introduces him to more Japanese Nintendo/smash fans

 

[dream1ng]

Well Riot is American, but they're owned by Tencent, who is Chinese. In these cases we typically defer to the parent, but I suppose you could look at it either way.

And as for Microsoft and their subsidiaries, sure. As for Ubisoft, sure. As for EA? Having a "good" relationship with Nintendo is pretty questionable. I doubt either is reaching out to the other for Smash. Not the least of which because EA has a pretty limited catalogue of plausible options that no one is really asking for anyway, especially globally.

 

[Quillion]

Very quick question, besides the Western gaming content added in Smash Bros Ultimate, what other Western companies do you see getting a rep in Smash Six?

I think 343 Industries, Ubisoft, Activision and Electronic Arts are all major contenders for getting a rep.

This is because all the companies have a good relationship with Nintendo and I think the negotiations for their companies ips would work out well.

Anyone of them not owned by Microsoft. Nothing against them, but other companies need a chance.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I want Ubisoft to get a character, not because i'm a fan of their games, never have been. But because Ultimate has enough content from them where the lack of a character feels really weird.

 

[MrMcNuts]

I want Ubisoft to get a character, not because i'm a fan of their games, never have been. But because Ultimate has enough content from them where the lack of a character feels really weird.

If I have to watch Rayman be only a collectable for a 3RD time I'm gonna just disintegrate on the spot lol

 

[CannonStreak]

If I have to watch Rayman be only a collectable for a 3RD time I'm gonna just disintegrate on the spot lol

You know, I kinda feel the same way. That is how much I want him in.

 

[dream1ng]

Anyone of them not owned by Microsoft. Nothing against them, but other companies need a chance.

Though these days Microsoft, sort of like Capcom, just has a super stacked library of options.

If you wanted to look at it as parity between companies I get it, but if you just want to look at it on a character or series basis... they've got a lot of good options in the wings. A lot.

 

[MrMcNuts]

You know, I kinda feel the same way. That is how much I want him in.

I mean he's still one of the higher requested characters in the west even durinf Ultimate, is showing up in a Mario game, has limbitless moveset potential, had his foot in the door since 4, what else does the lad need!?

 

[dream1ng]

I mean he's still one of the higher requested characters in the west even durinf Ultimate, is showing up in a Mario game, has limbitless moveset potential, had his foot in the door since 4, what else does the lad need!?

Japan

 

[MrMcNuts]

Japan

Yeah but I kinda listed that above about Mario Rabbids possibly boosting that and didn't wanna sound repetitive

 

[CannonStreak]

I mean he's still one of the higher requested characters in the west even durinf Ultimate, is showing up in a Mario game, has limbitless moveset potential, had his foot in the door since 4, what else does the lad need!?

Nothing more. I would explode if he made it in the next game with happiness. If only they could include Rayman 3's theme, Madder in with Rayman as well, which I am sure can't happen because of legal reasons.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Nothing more. I would explode if he made it in the next game with happiness. If only they could include Rayman 3's theme, Madder in with Rayman as well, which, I am sure can't happen because of legal reasons.

I feel even if there wasn't legal issues, the fact the song says "still spinning from a night in rehab" would keep them from adding it lmao

 

[CannonStreak]

I feel even if there wasn't legal issues, the fact the song says "still spinning from a night in rehab" would keep them from adding it lmao

Yeah, possibly so, lmao.

But yeah, Rayman would make a great character in Smash. No doubt about that.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Yeah, possibly so, lmao.

But yeah, Rayman would make a great character in Smash. No doubt about that.

Great character, amazing music, great environments for a stage. Mans will always be my number 1 till he makes it

 

[CannonStreak]

Great character, amazing music, great environments for a stage. Mans will always be my number 1 till he makes it

I know. He has basically replaced Geno as my number one for the next game. I would talk more about Geno, but that would break up the current conversation and I don't want possibly a bad argument. Despite me being on the Geno thread back then, I have realized and accepted that he probably won't get in.

Still, Rayman would be great. Possibly an obvious first choice to go with from Ubisoft.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean it's not just a rabbids game it's also a Mario game, that will likely sell well like the last one. With him getting his own DLC chapter that'll for sure give him a boost in relevancy, and hopefully introduces him to more Japanese Nintendo/smash fans

It sold because it was Rabbids(who are quite popular worldwide, though a bit less in Japan), Mario, and a good game. Mario wasn't the leading reason. Keep in mind the real kicker is Ubisoft was allowed to use said Mario characters in a unique way and with little caveats. As well as make Rabbid versions of many Mario and related series(like Donkey Kong Country) too. This spoke more on Ubisoft in general. Of course, the first game didn't do anything for Rayman due to not being in. This DLC will slightly help, but it's entirely depending upon how he plays as well as how he interacts with the story. Being there doesn't boost him much at all. It's him being worth getting the DLC for beyond essentially strict fans is what matters. As you said, it'll hopefully introduce him to more, but as long as he plays good and interacts well, his reception would be good too.

The worst that happens is for some finding him a case of "why can't he just get his own game again? This isn't that satisfying since he's piggybacking off of Rabbids now". Which, while not entirely incorrect, obviously is mistaking the point behind him being added. People like him and wanted to see him again. I don't think it really gives a boost to his relevancy though, as he's purely a guest in the game. Sure, it's good he's being used, but if you can't use the "constantly usage of the character means BK are relevant", it doesn't apply very well here. Now, I'd like to see some cool merchandise. I mean, amiibo jokes aside, he's a greatly designed character overall and I've seen some great moveset ideas(my issue was the disjointed hitbox and how it would balanced out).

Anyway, that's at least 3 franchises Nintendo could ask Ubisoft for when it comes to a character choice. And they're all great options in many ways. I'm just glad Rayman got anything in Ultimate, though I do wish he was at least a DLC costume too(Rabbid Hat was boring. Why wasn't it an all-around costume? I want to use a Plunger, dagnabbit!).

 

[MrMcNuts]

I know. He has basically replaced Geno as my number one for the next game. I would talk more about Geno, but that would break up the current conversation and I don't want possibly a bad argument. Despite me being on the Geno thread back then, I have realized and accepted that he probably won't get in.

Still, Rayman would be great. Possibly an obvious first choice to go with from Ubisoft.

I mean weirder things have happened so I'd never say never

And agree. Hopefully the big N and Ubisoft noticed that he trended for at least 3 days on Twitter after his Mario Rabbids, seeing the value in our lad

 

[CannonStreak]

I mean weirder things have happened so I'd never say never

And agree. Hopefully the big N and Ubisoft noticed that he trended for at least 3 days on Twitter after his Mario Rabbids, seeing the value in our lad

Yeah, the fact that he is having his own DLC adventure in the new Mario + Rabbids game is sweet! Why shouldn't he be trending on Twitter?

 

[MrMcNuts]

It sold because it was Rabbids(who are quite popular worldwide, though a bit less in Japan), Mario, and a good game. Mario wasn't the leading reason. Keep in mind the real kicker is Ubisoft was allowed to use said Mario characters in a unique way and with little caveats. As well as make Rabbid versions of many Mario and related series(like Donkey Kong Country) too. This spoke more on Ubisoft in general. Of course, the first game didn't do anything for Rayman due to not being in. This DLC will slightly help, but it's entirely depending upon how he plays as well as how he interacts with the story. Being there doesn't boost him much at all. It's him being worth getting the DLC for beyond essentially strict fans is what

matters. As you said, it'll hopefully introduce him to more, but as long as he plays good and interacts well, his reception would be good too.

The worst that happens is for some finding him a case of "why can't he just get his own game again? This isn't that satisfying since he's piggybacking off of Rabbids now". Which, while not entirely incorrect, obviously is mistaking the point behind him being added. People like him and wanted to see him again. I don't think it really gives a boost to his relevancy though, as he's purely a guest in the game. Sure, it's good he's being used, but if you can't use the "constantly usage of the character means BK are relevant", it doesn't apply very well here. Now, I'd like to see some cool merchandise. I mean, amiibo jokes aside, he's a greatly designed character overall and I've seen some great moveset ideas(my issue was the disjointed hitbox and how it would balanced out).

Mario is a huge part of why these games sell, as the standalone rabbids games don't do that great with go home being the only one to cross 1 mil sold. And being part of a game that sells well will definitely boost more people knowing about him no matter how ya cut it. I'm not saying he's guaranteed for the next smash, no one is of course. But this Mario Rabbids appearance is definitely a good sign of Ubisoft still willing to use the IP. And with Nintendo allowing them to put him in the game ( yes it's a Ubisoft made game but they still have to get lots of permissions on what they can do or put into the Mario ip) I think it shows that both companies see some value in adding him to a game.

Not trying to arguementitive and I mean he could still not show up in smash 6 but that's how I see it

 

[chocolatejr9]

I mean weirder things have happened so I'd never say never

And agree. Hopefully the big N and Ubisoft noticed that he trended for at least 3 days on Twitter after his Mario Rabbids, seeing the value in our lad

Better hope they're not one of those companies that thinks "anything can get trending on Twitter", and not make the connection...

 

[CannonStreak]

Anyways, I think to get Rayman in, or any character for that matter, we should make our voices heard more BEFORE they start working on the next Smash Bros. game. I mean, they be planning or will have planned the roster before they show the game's first trailer, so it might be too late to try to get someone like Rayman in the next game by that point, exuding DLC. Still, that won't be easy since another Smash Bros. is not being made anytime soon, even if we try to get Sakurai, or whoever makes the next game's attention to include him. However, it shouldn't be that hard, considering how Rayman was in 4 and Ultimate in some form.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Anyways, I think to get Rayman in, or any character for that matter, we should make our voices heard more BEFORE they start working on the next Smash Bros. game. I mean, they be planning or will have planned the roster before they show the game's first trailer, so it might be too late to try to get someone like Rayman in the next game by that point, exuding DLC. Still, that won't be easy since another Smash Bros. is not being made anytime soon, even if we try to get Sakurai, or whoever makes the next game's attention to include him. However, it shouldn't be that hard, considering how Rayman was in 4 and Ultimate in some form.

The Rayman for smash page on Twitter is somewhat close to 10k follows and he did trend with other requests every time there was a smash dlc announcement, and considering he almost always shows up in the top 10 on polls I think we've got a good start.

All up to Nintendo at this point to be cool enough to add him

 

[CannonStreak]

The Rayman for smash page on Twitter is somewhat close to 10k follows and he did trend with other requests every time there was a smash dlc announcement, and considering he almost always shows up in the top 10 on polls I think we've got a good start.

All up to Nintendo at this point to be cool enough to add him

Of course.

Never been into Twitter much, but I think I'll follow. Thanks for the tip.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Of course.

Never been into Twitter much, but I think I'll follow. Thanks for the tip.

Twitter is weird to figure out but it's one of the biggest apps to discuss gaming, hell one of the biggest apps in the world, with even Nintendo and other big devs using it to announce games

 

[Wonder Smash]

Except you can't. Because it was barely a tiny bit before he appeared. The real fact is Joker was already selected in Smash way before his game appearance would exist. Remember, the game came out about a month before Joker was directly announced, even before Smash Ultimate would release. There's also no telling exactly when it would release, making it a non-factor at that point. The official reveal of PQ2 was in 2017(though that was more of a light preview, as technically the official reveal is treated as a year from then. Do you honestly think Joker was selected in August 2018, despite being noted in development for a few months before November 2018? As I'll note before, the timeline just doesn't match up in any way) as well. Beyond that, Joker was actually delayed in development due to Arsene being harder to work with. They didn't even have enough to show immediately on his own reveal in December, a bit before Smash Ultimate released. To quote; "As the first DLC fighter he should have been the first DLC fighter to be developed. He was actually developed a few months before the game went gold and we had to design him during our most difficult development period." Now remember that the game went gold in November. He started development as early as August or July(the term few is used here). This means he'd have to have been licensed before August at the earliest, before the actual proper announcement of when PQ2's date is. It doesn't necessarily mean that Sakurai was unaware of the release date, but it also means it couldn't have been a factor in why he was chosen anyway. See below about what the whole point of Nintendo appearances are. And hint; it's not about "it just happens to be a character releases in the game after a Nintendo appearance", as that's a major misreading of the actual argument. It's why it's not the actual argument used nor has any real meaning if it's not actually held up to proper details. Anybody can luckily be in a game right before they're made DLC. It's a coincidence. But actual merits of these kind of appearances are the factor that it happens before they were chosen. That's what makes them "eligible" in fan circles. Now, what really would be applicable instead in reality of development is that Joker was already intended to be in a Nintendo game by Atlus, which means adding him to Smash is even easier by then, since it lines up with both Nintendo and Atlus' interests.

Something else to note; DLC for Smash Ultimate was already greenlit(or more so, it was Nintendo's idea) in July 2017. Now, this is where it gets interesting. While Atlus actually noted Q2 was a thing that existed in August 2017, the release date wasn't shown until August 2018, and it wasn't till November 2018 it would release. The fact the date was announced extremely soon from it implies they weren't sure when it was close enough to done. While it's possible the release date was known enough by Sakurai, the other data barely matches up. Thus, the eligibility factor has pretty zero meaningful impact here in practice.

Joker, in the end, was eligible by being a video game character from a very big game. Being that Persona 5 wouldn't even be brought to the Switch at all, it's really a stretch to say a spin-off game is why he actually got in. Despite quite literally zero spin-offs are actually acknowledged in Smash, while instead, P3, 4, and 5 are. Which mind you, were not on Nintendo. Maybe it goes to show that it wasn't the Nintendo appearance in particular that mattered. But moreso, Atlus cooperating with Nintendo that made him an easy pick. They have been cooperating even earlier, with the first PQ in 2014. Which means Persona had its door into Nintendo, or in other words, the franchise itself would play a bigger role at that point than any lucky appearance before Ultimate.

To be even more clear, when people talk about "appearance before Smash", it's not about simply appearing. It's about appearing early enough to already have a Nintendo appearance in order to be eligible. And let's be real, there's no way PQ2 is actually what made him eligible. The dates don't match up remotely for that to make sense. If it was from P3 or 4, absolutely, as PQ itself was released very early, before 2015 itself. It's nothing more than a simple coincidence at best. Joker broke the trend of eligibility, basically. He proved you didn't need a Nintendo background to be eligible. What he didn't show is that your franchise having Nintendo relations is unimportant(or if that's hard to read, even for me when first typing this, is that Nintendo relations comes down to the overall franchise first and foremost, not strictly the character. And that's iffy if it matters all that much. Cause, well, company factors play a role even moreso. Licensing also is vastly important, though things like fan demand and how big a franchise is also matters. And let's be real, what made Atlus say yes is pretty easily a thing called cooperation. What made Nintendo say yes is pretty evidently how well Atlus is cooperating, with tons of games planned out, not some ill-defined eligibility by that point(which has never been stated to outright requirement a Nintendo appearance in any form).

I think you're overlooking the fact that by the time Joker was revealed, they showed very little of him that it was almost a tease. They didn't show any gameplay footage of him or really much else, to the point that they might as well not have announced him at all. Then by the time we even got to see his model, a fair amount of time would have passed since Persona Q2 had been released. And by fair amount of time, I mean months would have passed. We're talking early 2019. Heck, Nintendo could have very well skipped the Game Awards and announced Joker at a later date and I can guarantee people like you wouldn't be bringing this up. But with PQ2 being released on one of their consoles right before the Game Awards, Nintendo likely felt that it was just right for them to announced Joker at that time. Otherwise, they could have very well waited on announcing a character that wasn't going to be available for another 5 months.

 

[CannonStreak]

Twitter is weird to figure out but it's one of the biggest apps to discuss gaming, hell one of the biggest apps in the world, with even Nintendo and other big devs using it to announce games

You'd think if Nintendo would pay more attention to those who wanted characters in Smash for Twitter, characters like Rayman would be added now, maybe?

 

[MrMcNuts]

You'd think if Nintendo would pay more attention to those who wanted characters in Smash for Twitter, characters like Rayman would be added now, maybe?

I mean maybe they're starting to buy twitter boomed for smash discussion during Ultimate's life cycle with a lot of it already planned out. And while Rayman is a big request there's also others like crash, waluigi, and chief, so there's just no way to tell. Just gotta hope for the best next game and keep on shouting your love for your fave characters

 

[CannonStreak]

I mean maybe they're starting to buy twitter boomed for smash discussion during Ultimate's life cycle with a lot of it already planned out. And while Rayman is a big request there's also others like crash, waluigi, and chief, so there's just no way to tell. Just gotta hope for the best next game and keep on shouting your love for your fave characters

Yeah, there is competition. Don't care much for Chief and Waluigi, but Crash is one I'd also want in. It may be harder since he is owned by Activision, which is supposed to be now owned by Microsoft (If I recall correctly), assuming they don't want to add too many characters from one company. Even then, I have my reasons to believe Rayman has a better chance than Crash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mario is a huge part of why these games sell, as the standalone rabbids games don't do that great with go home being the only one to cross 1 mil sold. And being part of a game that sells well will definitely boost more people knowing about him no matter how ya cut it. I'm not saying he's guaranteed for the next smash, no one is of course. But this Mario Rabbids appearance is definitely a good sign of Ubisoft still willing to use the IP. And with Nintendo allowing them to put him in the game ( yes it's a Ubisoft made game but they still have to get lots of permissions on what they can do or put into the Mario ip) I think it shows that both companies see some value in adding him to a game.

Not trying to arguementitive and I mean he could still not show up in smash 6 but that's how I see it

I mean, to be fair... Rabbids have tons of merchandise. Yes, they sell. They're still part of why it was. They got their own spin-off full TV show. It's kind of telling that it wasn't the Mario IP that carried it so much as all 3 parts combined. Japan is the only one to not be massively into the Rabbids at best, which is the only time the Mario IP played a somewhat bigger role in its sales.

Something the problem with trying to just throw out sales numbers is they're actually meaningless alone. The way sales works is not by strict numbers, but if they sold enough to be a success in what the expected sales were. Ubisoft continued to use them a lottttttt, which pretty heavily implies they hit the right sales, even with the lower games. Like, I'd like to know actually what the expected sales figures are, or what games they called a success, but generally, their continued use and never really falling out of relevancy does tell a clear tale enough even without the full story. It's a successful franchise overall, and only has slightly less popularity in Japan. Now, I'm more curious of why Rayman is apparently not that strong in Japan? Was it bad sales(that is, it sold less than expected), some kind of odd culture thing(this happens from time to time), or just a lack of releases or maybe something else? I certainly hope he starts doing better too. But I'd love to see all franchises do better around the world so everybody can be happy, heh~

I'll also say this isn't a major boon to Rayman alone, but it helps in just that, getting more attention. If that helps him get more games in Japan localized/re-released, then sweet. Or new ones around the world. The more franchises in the world being used/successful, the better.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Very quick question, besides the Western gaming content added in Smash Bros Ultimate, what other Western companies do you see getting a rep in Smash Six?

I think 343 Industries, Ubisoft, Activision and Electronic Arts are all major contenders for getting a rep.

This is because all the companies have a good relationship with Nintendo and I think the negotiations for their companies ips would work out well.

Activision content is easily fair game if the buyout goes through, which tbh I do not think it will fall through at this point. Microsoft honestly has so many solid picks for Smash already, I would not be shocked if we got 2-3 at least depending on how long the DLC season goes on.

-------

Speaking of the Rayman and Ubisoft talk, I am gonna be the wet blanket and bring up the nightmare scenario that we get Rabbids first or instead of Rayman. Full disclosure, I ****ing hate the Rabbids. Take any single comment you have ever seen about the Minions being the death of comedy and a tumor on pop culture, and that would have been my thoughts pre Kingdom Battle. But honestly, getting Rabbids kind of makes sense to me. Not many franchises get to claim the honor of a huge collab with Mario twice. I also have this sinking feeling that the next Smash will be heavily referencing the Switch era. IT just makes too much sense to have the Rabbids show up with two high profile successful crossovers with Mario.

I would love to get Rayman first, but I just have this sinking gross feeling that the Rabbids are a very realistic pick and tbh more likely. They do not have the same baggage as Rayman (more popular games in Japan, more active franchise). I would vastly prefer Rayman to be the pick, but I am bracing myself for a Rabbid to be in the next game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think you're overlooking the fact that by the time Joker was revealed, they showed very little of him that it was almost a tease. They didn't show any gameplay footage of him or really much else, to the point that they might as well not have announced him at all. Then by the time we even got to see his model, a fair amount of time would have passed since Persona Q2 had been released. And by fair amount of time, I mean months would have passed. We're talking early 2019. Heck, Nintendo could have very well skipped the Game Awards and announced Joker at a later date and I can guarantee people like you wouldn't be bringing this up. But with PQ2 being released on one of their consoles right before the Game Awards, Nintendo likely felt that it was just right for them to announced Joker at that time. Otherwise, they could have very well waited on announcing a character that wasn't going to be available for another 5 months.

You do realize that has absolutely nothing to do with when he was chosen right? He was chosen as early as August or July 2018(if not earlier, as his development started a few months before December. That's a minimum of 3. And they'd have to have licensed him a lot earlier than that), before we got an official date release of PQ2. The game was not out before he was chosen. He was likely chosen well before that too, as he's the first character on the roster. Now keeping in mind the game itself was made clear to exist in August 2017, they at least knew a game was coming, which means that that in itself may be why Joker was easier to pick. Intended usage on a Nintendo system.

However, the actual argument for "appearing on a Nintendo system" was always "they had a game released before they were chosen. This is what made them eligible." ...And you can't obviously apply that here, cause they were not chosen before they actually legitimately appeared on a Nintendo system. This is why the argument will never work with Joker cause the timeline doesn't match up in any possible way.

FYI, his announcement time also can't be relevant because, get this, Joker's reveal and gameplay reveal aren't related in the same way. He had no gameplay showing because he was delayed. They announced him at a time that was when DLC was going to come out fast, and at The Game Awards, a huge thing to try and get people interested. They did it correctly. Nintendo Directs aren't big for everyone, whereas TGA is big for way more people to see, as it encompasses more than just Nintendo, but fans of all active systems. He also, keeping in mind cause he was delayed, was likely to have gameplay data intended by that point anyway. It just didn't work out entirely.

 

[Wonder Smash]

You do realize that has absolutely nothing to do with when he was chosen right? He was chosen as early as August or July 2018(if not earlier, as his development started a few months before December. That's a minimum of 3. And they'd have to have licensed him a lot earlier than that), before we got an official date release of PQ2. The game was not out before he was chosen. He was likely chosen well before that too, as he's the first character on the roster. Now keeping in mind the game itself was made clear to exist in August 2017, they at least knew a game was coming, which means that that in itself may be why Joker was easier to pick. Intended usage on a Nintendo system.

If you only want to talk about when a character was chosen, then you need to also consider that Nintendo obviously knew he had a game coming out on one of their consoles before they chose him. And as such, they also knew when that game was going to be released. This all made the Game Show the perfect time to reveal Joker.

However, the actual argument for "appearing on a Nintendo system" was always "they had a game released before they were chosen. This is what made them eligible." ...And you can't obviously apply that here, cause they were not chosen before they actually legitimately appeared on a Nintendo system. This is why the argument will never work with Joker cause the timeline doesn't match up in any possible way.

If Nintendo already knew that there was going to be a Persona game on a Nintendo console that had Joker in it, then yeah, you can apply that here. You're talking about the timeline and all that but it's different situation when it's Nintendo themselves, when they obviously know more about which games are coming to their consoles than the fans do. They see a Persona game coming to their console that has Joker in it, so he was good.

FYI, his announcement time also can't be relevant because, get this, Joker's reveal and gameplay reveal aren't related in the same way. He had no gameplay showing because he was delayed. They announced him at a time that was when DLC was going to come out fast, and at The Game Awards, a huge thing to try and get people interested. They did it correctly. Nintendo Directs aren't big for everyone, whereas TGA is big for way more people to see, as it encompasses more than just Nintendo, but fans of all active systems. He also, keeping in mind cause he was delayed, was likely to have gameplay data intended by that point anyway. It just didn't work out entirely.

And once again, they could have very well held off on all of that for a couple of more months.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If you only want to talk about when a character was chosen, then you need to also consider that Nintendo obviously knew he had a game coming out on one of their consoles before they chose him. And as such, they also knew when that game was going to be released. This all made the Game Show the perfect time to reveal Joker.

...I, what? These have jackall to do with each other, dude. You're majorly stretching this. TGA was solely because they wanted to reveal Joker soon specific only to Smash. He was never going to release before Smash Ultimate obviously. If PQ2 was delayed to be after Smash, nothing would change. It's not actually relevant to any real degree beyond at best "Atlus wants to continue using this character, so he's easier to license".

If Nintendo already knew that there was going to be a Persona game on a Nintendo console that had Joker in it, then yeah, you can apply that here. You're talking about the timeline and all that but it's different situation when it's Nintendo themselves, when they obviously know more about which games are coming to their consoles than the fans do. They see a Persona game coming to their console that has Joker in it, so he was good.

No it's not any different. Joker was eligible the second he was part of Persona 5. He was going to get in any way because Atlus already was working with Nintendo. It at most even further made it a clear option, due to more reusage. But he was still blatantly chosen for Persona 5 and is solely advertised as Persona 5. You know, just like Sakurai said? Every single time? Again, big stretch here.

Again, the game release is only relevant when it releases and when that's the only time it makes them eligible. But we damn well knew he was eligible before the game would release, making the argument hard defunct now. You're the only one trying to make the argument different from what it legitimately ever was. Which is a bad argument, because PQ2 could easily not exist and it would've made little difference. You're forgetting that Atlus was constantly bringing games over to Nintendo as is, the real reason they were so easy to work with. You know, not a silly spin-off which is pretty evidently unrelated to Smash? You're trying too hard to make a coincidence sound more than that.

And once again, they could have very well held off on all of that for a couple of more months.

Yep, that's smart. The big new DLC is being held off, which means it'll get even worse sales. They couldn't have in any way. The reasons it was at TGA was even more than just "better audience", it's that they had to show something from Fighter's Pass 1 very fast in order to even get a single remote pre-sale. Timing was perfect for it and they made a ten times better call than a bad delay that would only hurt sales. All they needed was the character, not the gameplay. Cause that's what sells in Smash, purely on character name alone. Do you honestly think characters like Mario was sold simply on his moveset? Ha! We all know what makes Mario sell is he's one of the biggest gaming icons at the time(with Pac-Man and Sonic being the other two. Steve/Alex joining later on too, though I forget how soon after Microsoft bought Minecraft is when it became a major part of gaming. Some years after 2010, I think?)

Regardless, you clearly have no understanding of the actual argument about eligibility in itself, and are still trying to stretch it too hard just so it applies, even when it doesn't legitimately. It was never apply outside of "this game releases before this character is chosen", since that's what it's always been 100% of the time as an actual point. This is what fans actually mean when they say that. What you're doing, basically, is trying to change it to better fit your biases instead of just using the proper argument as it was meant to be. And since it obviously doesn't apply, it's perfectly fine to admit that the argument simply was broken instead of still trying to justify something that isn't a thing. I'm not going to reply anymore to it beyond this, either way. You can continue to believe in an argument you solely created to benefit your biases, or you can accept it's not what people actually mean like many others do and move on. No skin off my back.

 

[dream1ng]

Y'all are gonna be in for it when who we end up getting is Ezio Auditore da Firenze.

 

[CannonStreak]

Y'all are gonna be in for it when who we end up getting is Ezio Auditore da Firenze.

Honestly, wouldn't be surprised. I am still hopeful for Rayman, though.

 

[Perkilator]

I want Ubisoft to get a character, not because i'm a fan of their games, never have been. But because Ultimate has enough content from them where the lack of a character feels really weird.

I honestly think Rayman should’ve been a DLC character in Sm4sh.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Y'all are gonna be in for it when who we end up getting is Ezio Auditore da Firenze.

Honestly, it sucks, but Rayman(not that he's my personal choice) is kind of in the lower of the three core choices of franchises due to having the weakest showing in Japan.

But hey, that could be entirely different, as things like fan demand do matter too. Albeit, part of what helped BK was Microsoft getting in good with Nintendo via Minecraft alone, but Nintendo and Ubisoft were already pals for a long time. So it's at most a matter of how the ballot went. Rayman is the only straight franchise alone among Ubisoft's to get an NPC appearance in base too, which while could be argued as "Nintendo published some games in Japan", it does mean that it's at least considered important. Regular Rabbids didn't, but the crossover did. And AC didn't show up till DLC, same with Rabbids. Despite one having a weaker Japanese showing, it's pretty clear they're all held in high regard anyway, and that's great for all fans as they feel like a pretty good reasonable chance. Even if Rayman isn't playable, as long as Ubisoft is game, I expect some kind of NPC appearance or costume in some way. Same with the rest by now, albeit, some would be DLC too. But Spirits don't have to be, as shown. If you think about it, that's also kind of what Rayman had that regular Rabbids and AC didn't; he was able to be put in base game cause he wasn't a costume. Next game could change this up quite a bit.

 

[Wonder Smash]

...I, what? These have jackall to do with each other, dude. You're majorly stretching this. TGA was solely because they wanted to reveal Joker soon specific only to Smash. He was never going to release before Smash Ultimate obviously. If PQ2 was delayed to be after Smash, nothing would change. It's not actually relevant to any real degree beyond at best "Atlus wants to continue using this character, so he's easier to license".

What does this have to do with what I said?

No it's not any different. Joker was eligible the second he was part of Persona 5. He was going to get in any way because Atlus already was working with Nintendo. It at most even further made it a clear option, due to more reusage. But he was still blatantly chosen for Persona 5 and is solely advertised as Persona 5. You know, just like Sakurai said? Every single time? Again, big stretch here.

Again, the game release is only relevant when it releases and when that's the only time it makes them eligible. But we damn well knew he was eligible before the game would release, making the argument hard defunct now. You're the only one trying to make the argument different from what it legitimately ever was. Which is a bad argument, because PQ2 could easily not exist and it would've made little difference. You're forgetting that Atlus was constantly bringing games over to Nintendo as is, the real reason they were so easy to work with. You know, not a silly spin-off which is pretty evidently unrelated to Smash? You're trying too hard to make a coincidence sound more than that.

You can say Persona 5 made him the first choice but you can't say it's what made eligible. In the end, he wasn't announced until his first game was released and Nintendo would have known about this before he was chosen to be in Ultimate. No matter how much you try to tiptoe around it, PQ2 was going to come out before Joker was announced and, of course, released for Smash.

Tell me you didn't just try to argue coincidence here? Like Nintendo just happened to announced Joker for their game after he just happened to appear in a game on their console just happened to be released around that same time? And really, the only way you knew he was eligible is if you knew he appeared on a Nintendo console at that time. You can't say he would have gotten in even without that, as there's no indication that he would. Just because Nintendo or Sakurai didn't mention the spinoff doesn't mean it played no part in them in getting in. Just like they don't have to mention that each character is a video game character every time they're revealed.

Also, I already know about Atlus working with Nintendo, so that makes negotiations much easier but that's all that really means. Working with a company is one thing. Getting their character in Smash is another.

Yep, that's smart. The big new DLC is being held off, which means it'll get even worse sales. They couldn't have in any way. The reasons it was at TGA was even more than just "better audience", it's that they had to show something from Fighter's Pass 1 very fast in order to even get a single remote pre-sale. Timing was perfect for it and they made a ten times better call than a bad delay that would only hurt sales. All they needed was the character, not the gameplay. Cause that's what sells in Smash, purely on character name alone. Do you honestly think characters like Mario was sold simply on his moveset? Ha! We all know what makes Mario sell is he's one of the biggest gaming icons at the time(with Pac-Man and Sonic being the other two. Steve/Alex joining later on too, though I forget how soon after Microsoft bought Minecraft is when it became a major part of gaming. Some years after 2010, I think?)

Regardless, you clearly have no understanding of the actual argument about eligibility in itself, and are still trying to stretch it too hard just so it applies, even when it doesn't legitimately. It was never apply outside of "this game releases before this character is chosen", since that's what it's always been 100% of the time as an actual point. This is what fans actually mean when they say that. What you're doing, basically, is trying to change it to better fit your biases instead of just using the proper argument as it was meant to be. And since it obviously doesn't apply, it's perfectly fine to admit that the argument simply was broken instead of still trying to justify something that isn't a thing. I'm not going to reply anymore to it beyond this, either way. You can continue to believe in an argument you solely created to benefit your biases, or you can accept it's not what people actually mean like many others do and move on. No skin off my back.

Sales would have been just fine with both the name and the gameplay. Holding it off for just a little while wouldn't have done any harm, especially when the character wouldn't have been available until April.

You keep going on and on about when they were chosen but you still can't deny the fact that a character has appeared on a Nintendo console before they were revealed for Smash. You just don't want to accept it because in this case, these two events happened so close to each other and that somehow makes it irrelevant (I don't get that) but the fact remains that Joker's announcement for Smash was predated by an appearance on a Nintendo console. All you keep saying is when he was chosen for Smash but if you can't show that his prior appearance on a Nintendo console didn't play a part in that, then you really can't say that that argument is debunked.

 

[SneakyLink]

One thing regarding Rayman (and Shovel Knight) is that Nintendo published a game from the franchise in Japan, hence why it likely appeared in Smash 4 and Ultimate base as collectables.