Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[osby]

Ngl I saw this trailer and thought I was watching Guilty Gear for a bit.

It's done by Arcsystem Works so there's no wonder there. I think they are making the character designs a bit more animesque for this game.

 

[Shroob]

It's done by Arcsystem Works so there's no wonder there. I think they are making the character designs a bit more animesque for this game.

One gal in that trailer is just straight up Jam.

 

[dream1ng]

I think it's more that there aren't a lot of Chinese games that have made an impact globally. Lots of Chinese games are big in China. Genshin seems to be making headway where most Chinese games don't.

There would be incentive for Nintendo to include that kind of character if they want Smash to have more of a foothold in China, while not alienating much of the rest of the world.

 

[Shroob]

I think it's more that there aren't a lot of Chinese games that have made an impact globally. Lots of Chinese games are big in China. Genshin seems to be making headway where most Chinese games don't.

There would be incentive for Nintendo to include that kind of character if they want Smash to have more of a foothold in China, while not alienating much of the rest of the world.

While true, then I have to question why not just go for the top of the top then and go straight for League of Legends.


While League is a Western game, its main playerbase, and majority of its playerbase, is all in China. China is League's biggest and most profitable market, while every other territory except for maybe Korea is basically a pale shadow in it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

First off, only one of them was posted on April Fools (the other was posted on the 15th). Secondly, these are clearly meant to be serious profiles, unlike the ACTUAL April Fools profiles, so my point still stands.

It doesn't, because they were clearly jokes. You are a person who believes April Fools jokes. Contemplate that for a minute.

Impa on the other hand has such wildly varying portrayals that pleasing all of her fans is Sonic-tier impossible.

Except there are no actual fans of, like, fat old lady Impa.

The only Impas anyone really cares about are the 2 Hyrule Warriors ones, because those are the only ones that...ya know...do stuff.

Like, nobody ACTUALLY likes him, he's just a meme. Yet everybody acts like he's the deepest, most complex character in the series

No. Just, like, the 9th deepest, most complex character in a series with that already has 7 of the deeper ones in Smash.

I'm one of those people who wants Waluigi in the Super Smash Bros. series as a newcomer, but to do that he has to get his own video games series to have moves based on that. I really want a series of video games starring Waluigi, although this is probably impossible.

Waluigi's Wrecking Crew!

If Toad was going to happen, I think it would've happened by now. I don't think Sakurai sees him as a combatant.

But he saw...Isabelle as a combatant?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It doesn't, because they were clearly jokes. You are a person who believes April Fools jokes. Contemplate that for a minute.

Except there are no actual fans of, like, fat old lady Impa.

The only Impas anyone really cares about are the 2 Hyrule Warriors ones, because those are the only ones that...ya know...do stuff.

No. Just, like, the 9th deepest, most complex character in a series with that already has 7 of the deeper ones in Smash.

Waluigi's Wrecking Crew!

But he saw...Isabelle as a combatant?

OoT and SS Impa have quite a lot of fans.

 

[fogbadge]

If you think Greninja is more popular than Pikachu or Charizard or Mewtwo in general, I don't know what to tell you. That poll's demographics is going to skew away from the less involved Pokemon fan, who is going to favor Gen 1 staples.

It's not an indictment of Greninja's popularity. It's saying that there is obviously a reality in which they prioritize general popularity and longtime Smash attendance, and then by virtue of how extensive cuts are, not everyone can make it back.

You can't stack Greninja up against the hundreds of Pokemon not on the roster. You can't cut those because they're not there. He's up against the small apex of the series that is, and what may be a limited number of spots. One of which will go to a newcomer.

And so, I think the most telling aspect is no one has raised an alternative Pokemon they would absolutely cut over Greninja of those vets I've suggested could have priority. Would Greninja get in over Jigglypuff? Maybe, but not necessarily. Over Squirtle and Ivysaur? Maybe, but not necessarily. Over Lucario? It's hardly a sure thing. You could vouch for any of these character to return, because they're all qualified. And on the flipside, because of the quantity and quality of Pokemon's roster, someone with merit may still wind up getting cut. It could be Greninja. It could be Jigglypuff. It could be Squirtle.

None of them are going to be the top priority of their series. It could go a number of ways, because they're all pretty qualified. And therein, depending on the number of cuts, them being safe isn't something I agree with.

you seem to be delibreatly missing the point that who actually is most popular doesnt matter cause tpc has this poll which will probably be good enough for them and quite possibly be good enough for sakurai. you say the poll doesnt matter cause its not actually right but that doesnt matter cause it was a case of them asking the fans for their top choice the exact same situation as the smash ballot

sunshine you stared this off by saying it was impossible for some of them to get cut that would make them top priority, now youre saying none of them are?

 

[Gengar84]

I don't think Link won't be based around BotW next Smash, BotW is getting a sequel after all. And BotW marked a new era for the series. I think Zelda will be based around BotW too, maybe even Ganon(dorf). A newcomer in the form of a Champion and Impa would also bring much needed freshness. I just honestly can't make my mind up about Sheik, Toon Link and Ganondorf.

I'd like them to stay, but they only seem to stagnate the representation of Zelda, especially Sheik. It's already more than clear to me that Young Link is one of the least prioritized characters next game, but going back to another cycle of Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Sheik and Toon Link is just boring and outdated.

I'd much rather throw out Ganondorf for a humanoid version of Calamity Ganon, and throw out Sheik and Toon Link to make room for Impa and a Champion. I can't picture that many Zelda characters on the Smash roster, and I can't picture it NOT getting a newcomer (or two), hence cuts are a likely probability for the Zelda series. But also Fire Emblem, Pokemon and even Mario (also part of the reason I asked that one question in one of my previous posts that's seemingly ignored but that's cool).

I’ll agree with you on Toon Link and Young Link but Ganondorf is my favorite character in Smash along with Sephiroth so I’d be extremely disappointed to see them both go in the next game. Sheik has also been a favorite of mine but I’d be a bit more understanding if she had to be cut. I’ve been a Ganondorf main since Melee and his Ultimate design is by far my favorite portrayal of the character I’ve ever seen. Calamity Ganon is cool too but there’s just something so cool and unique about OoT Ganondorf that I feel Calamity Ganon never quite captured. If I get any version of Ganon, I want the classic blue pig (specifically the design from the Oracle games). Ideally, this would be an additional character on top of keeping the OoT Ganondorf we already have. I never really cared for the idea of just using the newest design of every character so I think Ultimate was on the right track in that regard.

 

[chocolatejr9]

While true, then I have to question why not just go for the top of the top then and go straight for League of Legends.


While League is a Western game, its main playerbase, and majority of its playerbase, is all in China. China is League's biggest and most profitable market, while every other territory except for maybe Korea is basically a pale shadow in it.

I think you answered your own question: League is a Western game. Considering we're only NOW getting Western third parties (and even then, they're both owned by the same company), we might still have to wait a while before it becomes a bit more... normalised? Is that the word I'm looking for?

It doesn't, because they were clearly jokes. You are a person who believes April Fools jokes. Contemplate that for a minute.

Except they're NOT clearly jokes. I'm not a person who believes April Fools jokes: you're a person who believes "happens on April 1st = April Fools joke".

EDIT: Okay, looking back, this came out a LOT harsher than I intended. I didn't mean for this to get out of hand: I had been watching the Character Profiles back when they were active, so I had reason to believe that these were legit. I'm sorry to keep bothering you with this, and I feel it might be best to move on before it potentially gets worse.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I’ll agree with you on Toon Link and Young Link but Ganondorf is my favorite character in Smash along with Sephiroth so I’d be extremely disappointed to see them both go in the next game. Sheik has also been a favorite of mine but I’d be a bit more understanding if she had to be cut. I’ve been a Ganondorf main since Melee and his Ultimate design is by far my favorite portrayal of the character I’ve ever seen. Calamity Ganon is cool too but there’s just something so cool and unique about OoT Ganondorf that I feel Calamity Ganon never quite captured. If I get any version of Ganon, I want the classic blue pig (specifically the design from the Oracle games). Ideally, this would be an additional character on top of keeping the OoT Ganondorf we already have. I never really cared for the idea of just using the newest design of every character so I think Ultimate was on the right track in that regard.

View attachment 354059

I get you. I love Ganondorf too, especially in Melee and Ultimate. So you could say I indeed have a soft spot for OOT Ganondorf too, he's a cool character and by far the best version of him I feel.

However, I can't see a justification to cut a second Zelda, cut a second and third Link, but add a second Ganon.

So if am gonna be total fair, I'd include just one Link, one Zelda and one Ganon(dorf). And honestly, I would prefer Ganondorf over Ganon, but Ganondorf has his share of problems. Moveset wise he seems stuck in a place where he likely won't be changed too much, competitive wise he's been one of the very worst characters for three games in a row (downright the worst in both Brawl and Smash 4 even)...

And there's also the fact that in Zelda games Ganondorf doesn't seem to get new exposures. If there's a Ganon appearance, it's the beast version.

So these would be my reasons to cut Ganondorf honestly. But he's one of the last characters I'd justify cutting. I don't think many would agree with me, and I'm honestly not in #TeamReboot anyway, but I like to consider all options.

 

[Geno Boost]

Would you mind if the next smash game decided to split from his Clown Car?
and what happens is fight with his own unique moveset and some could be shared with the Koopalings
while Clown Car become its own character with the only change being his grab attack and up air and up special due to the fact is not riding him anymore and that would give him a smaller hitbox now as an advantage

 

[chocolatejr9]

Would you mind if the next smash game decided to split from his Clown Car?
and what happens is fight with his own unique moveset and some could be shared with the Koopalings
while Clown Car become its own character with the only change being his grab attack and up air and up special due to the fact is not riding him anymore and that would give him a smaller hitbox now as an advantage

I dunno, the Clown Car without a rider seems kinda weird to me. Plus, it's become a major part of Bowser Jr.'s identity in recent years.

Also, completely unrelated, but remember how Sakurai threatened to not add Pac-Man if he was forced to use his Ghostly Adventures design? It's not related to anything specific, but apparently that show has reached the point of being considered nostalgic (or at the very least, the kids who grew up with that show are now old enough to have opinions online), and I felt like reminding everybody of that piece of trivia.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Would you mind if the next smash game decided to split from his Clown Car?
and what happens is fight with his own unique moveset and some could be shared with the Koopalings
while Clown Car become its own character with the only change being his grab attack and up air and up special due to the fact is not riding him anymore and that would give him a smaller hitbox now as an advantage

If that would give us a new Mario character in the form of Bowser Jr., and the Koopalings fight with the Clown Car, that'd be cool in my books. Honestly, I supported Bowser Jr. back around Brawl, not that actively but still, and he didn't come out the way I wanted, so this would be cool.

 

[Opossum]

If you think Greninja is more popular than Pikachu or Charizard or Mewtwo in general, I don't know what to tell you. That poll's demographics is going to skew away from the less involved Pokemon fan, who is going to favor Gen 1 staples.

It's not an indictment of Greninja's popularity. It's saying that there is obviously a reality in which they prioritize general popularity and longtime Smash attendance, and then by virtue of how extensive cuts are, not everyone can make it back.

You can't stack Greninja up against the hundreds of Pokemon not on the roster. You can't cut those because they're not there. He's up against the small apex of the series that is, and what may be a limited number of spots. One of which will go to a newcomer.

And so, I think the most telling aspect is no one has raised an alternative Pokemon they would absolutely cut over Greninja of those vets I've suggested could have priority. Would Greninja get in over Jigglypuff? Maybe, but not necessarily. Over Squirtle and Ivysaur? Maybe, but not necessarily. Over Lucario? It's hardly a sure thing. You could vouch for any of these character to return, because they're all qualified. And on the flipside, because of the quantity and quality of Pokemon's roster, someone with merit may still wind up getting cut. It could be Greninja. It could be Jigglypuff. It could be Squirtle.

None of them are going to be the top priority of their series. It could go a number of ways, because they're all pretty qualified. And therein, depending on the number of cuts, them being safe isn't something I agree with.

Figured I'd throw in my own two cents on the Poképriority topic. Basically, should substantial cuts happen, this is how I see the series pecking order.

Pikachu > Charizard > Mewtwo > Lucario > Greninja > Newcomer >> Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle+Ivysaur) >> Incineroar > Jigglypuff >> Pichu


Anyone listed above "Newcomer" are the ones I personally think are absolutely safe. I don't see Pokémon dipping below six fighters next time and that set of six makes the most sense to me.

 

[RileyXY1]

Figured I'd throw in my own two cents on the Poképriority topic. Basically, should substantial cuts happen, this is how I see the series pecking order.

Pikachu > Charizard > Mewtwo > Lucario > Greninja > Newcomer >> Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle+Ivysaur) >> Incineroar > Jigglypuff >> Pichu


Anyone listed above "Newcomer" are the ones I personally think are absolutely safe. I don't see Pokémon dipping below six fighters next time and that set of six makes the most sense to me.

I don't think that it would either unless the next Smash is a complete reboot with only 20-30 fighters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hell, my favorite Impa is the one from the Oracle games. Where she's still an elderly lady, yet has lots of muscle. No irony either.

The whole "nobody is a fan of this" is a silly thing that really isn't an argument that ever holds true. Some characters, yeah, won't have a lot of fans, sure. Makes sense.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Figured I'd throw in my own two cents on the Poképriority topic. Basically, should substantial cuts happen, this is how I see the series pecking order.

Pikachu > Charizard > Mewtwo > Lucario > Greninja > Newcomer >> Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle+Ivysaur) >> Incineroar > Jigglypuff >> Pichu


Anyone listed above "Newcomer" are the ones I personally think are absolutely safe. I don't see Pokémon dipping below six fighters next time and that set of six makes the most sense to me.

I mostly agree with this list, except I'd rank Jigglypuff higher than both Pokemon Trainer and Incineroar, mainly cause it's a old time veteran and very easy to develop. The rest seem spot on.

How'd you rank the priorities of the Mario, Fire Emblem and Zelda cast?

I'll give it a go myself cause why not:

Pokemon:

Pikachu >>>>>> Charizard = Mewtwo > Lucario = Greninja > Newcomer of any sort >> Jigglypuff > Incineroar > Squirtle and Ivysaur

Mario:

Mario >>> Luigi > Bowser = Peach >>> Rosalina >> Bowser Jr. >>> Dr.Mario > Piranha Plant

Fire Emblem:

Marth = Byleth > Lucina = Ike > Chrom > Robin >>> Roy > Corrin

Zelda:

Link >>> Zelda >>>>> Ganondorf >>> Toon Link >>> Sheik > Young Link

My general thought of the pool of most safe characters in Ultimate :



Characters on the edge:

 

[Stratos]

Mario and Paper Mario are separate characters as revealed in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, maybe Paper Mario should come in the next Super Smash Bros. game as a newcomer. So we will have Mario, Dr. Mario and Paper Mario together.

 

[ceterisparibus]

I'm gonna be honest, the underlying support for lyn among the general audience probably isn't as high as what people here think it is.
We've seen many different characters get a ramp-up in terms of representation, be it becoming playable, spirits etc. But when you look at her specifically there's really nothing other than the same old trophy, meanwhile we've seen other characters get increased representation out of nowhere (cough issac mii and AT). If anything its pretty possible she shares the same fate as the other "wanted' characters but with the caveat of competing against the rest of them instead of being included in whatever promotional push new mainline games would enjoy.

Like if anything someone like the black knight or even tiki (who for some inexplicable reason got ATs and even mii hats) does strike me as performing better within nintendo's marketing polls.

I had the honor of composing the field music for Pokémon Scarlet and Violet! After creating a concept sketch, Game Freak arranged it into many versions that you'll hear throughout the game. You can hear a bit of it in this trailer... https://t.co/dhjv4e9fQN

— tobyfox (@tobyfox) June 1, 2022

If this keeps up, then Sans may as well be a shoe-in for the next Smash...

That sounds suspiciously like the whole ubisoft thing. Remember when people thought their tight bond with Nintendo during the wii days guaranteed a character in the future? In the end we only got miis and spirits - the only western picks were heavily requested or mainstream popular.

As much as it seems like I might be down on Doomslayer because I prefer other Microsoft characters, I actually think he’d be awesome in Smash. DOOM has a huge legacy and the new games have awesome soundtracks composed by the same guy that made so much of the 2013 Killer Instinct music that I love. I’d still be pretty excited to see him get in even if he’s not at the top of my list for Microsoft characters. I think I might have a bad habit of unintentionally putting down popular characters when comparing them to my personal favorites but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t still be happy to see many of them.

If anything the weirdass grunge music doesn't seem like a good fit for smash. I don't see the point of including franchises just because they bring new genres of music for the sake of doing so.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The Lyn support might not be all time huge, but she's definitely one of the more popular Fire Emblem characters not included in Smash. One look at Fire Emblem Heroes would imply as such. She's also more known to the general Smash public due to her Assist Trophy status since Brawl, and the upcoming GBA VC for Switch will likely have Fire Emblem 7 eventually too (it only has Sacred Stones so far, which is kinda weird but yeah).

She's generally one of the more safe bets for a new Fire Emblem character, unless you want a newcomer from Three Houses which is also more than fair. Cause I'd take Dimitri in a heartbeat.

 

[RileyXY1]

The Lyn support might not be all time huge, but she's definitely one of the more popular Fire Emblem characters not included in Smash. One look at Fire Emblem Heroes would imply as such. She's also more known to the general Smash public due to her Assist Trophy status since Brawl, and the upcoming GBA VC for Switch will likely have Fire Emblem 7 eventually too (it only has Sacred Stones so far, which is kinda weird but yeah).

She's generally one of the more safe bets for a new Fire Emblem character, unless you want a newcomer from Three Houses which is also more than fair. Cause I'd take Dimitri in a heartbeat.

Especially if we don't get a new Fire Emblem game between now and the next Smash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Especially if we don't get a new Fire Emblem game between now and the next Smash.

Makes it all the more likely to go for another Three Houses character, especially since we get Three Hopes. I think similarly about Breath of the Wild being looked at twice cause of Age of Calamity and it's sequel.

And in which case we do get newcomers of these games , I really want Impa and Dimitri.

 

[RileyXY1]

Makes it all the more likely to go for another Three Houses character, especially since we get Three Hopes. I think similarly about Breath of the Wild being looked at twice cause of Age of Calamity and it's sequel.

And in which case we do get newcomers of these games , I really want Impa and Dimitri.

Byleth technically represents all three houses in one moveset, so there's no need for a second Three Houses rep.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Byleth technically represents all three houses in one moveset, so there's no need for a second Three Houses rep.

Yes. As it's currently established. Honestly, I could see them rework Byleth. Because it's very probably the Belmonts won't be in the next Smash, and thus Byleth could inherit their general playstyle with the long ranged Sword of the Creator. Just check their Up B, but do that with many more of their moves.

If they get rid of the Relics that Byleth never used, that frees up a possibility for any of the other Fire Emblem Three Houses main characters, and since most useful moves are done with Areadbahr, Dimitri's weapon, and his route got the most love from the developers, I say include Dimitri. Edelgard is also a good choice, as she's an antagonist.. but if I had to choose? Dimitri.

It's not the most likely scenario. But hey, Awakening can get 3 playable characters, why wouldn't Three Houses? Byleth, Dimitri and Edelgard basically cover it all, Claude would be cool too but I see no way for him to make a good playable Smash fighter, mounted and being archer and all. His route is also the least original.

Oh by the way, to justify this many Fire Emblem characters I'd cut at least Robin and Corrin, possibly Roy too. To cover the mage class aspects of Fire Emblem, I'd give Byleth spells for their Specials, since they too can use that in canon.

 

[Opossum]

I mostly agree with this list, except I'd rank Jigglypuff higher than both Pokemon Trainer and Incineroar, mainly cause it's a old time veteran and very easy to develop. The rest seem spot on.

How'd you rank the priorities of the Mario, Fire Emblem and Zelda cast?

I'll give it a go myself cause why not:

Pokemon:

Pikachu >>>>>> Charizard = Mewtwo > Lucario = Greninja > Newcomer of any sort >> Jigglypuff > Incineroar > Squirtle and Ivysaur

Mario:

Mario >>> Luigi > Bowser = Peach >>> Rosalina >> Bowser Jr. >>> Dr.Mario > Piranha Plant

Fire Emblem:

Marth = Byleth > Lucina = Ike > Chrom > Robin >>> Roy > Corrin

Zelda:

Link >>> Zelda >>>>> Ganondorf >>> Toon Link >>> Sheik > Young Link

My general thought of the pool of most safe characters in Ultimate :



Characters on the edge:

And that's a fair point on Jigglypuff. I mostly put her where I did because her very late addition into Brawl, going by the order in the data and her absence from the SSE, is at least one instance of her being considered lower priority. And considering the sheer magnitude of characters we have now, I could see her being deemed low priority again. But she's definitely a toss up.

For Mario, Zelda, and Fire Emblem, I'd probably rank them like this. This is, again, assuming there are at least some cuts in the next game, which I believe is a reasonable assumption.

Super Mario:
Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and Rosalina & Luma, I feel, are all totally safe. I don't see any of them being cut even under a case of fairly substantial cuts, which might go against the grain of public perception with regards to Rosalina. A little bit after them would be Bowser Jr., due to the fact that he and the Koopalings were said by Sakurai to have only just made the cut in Smash 4, implying they were a lower priority. That's not to say Jr. is a clear cut, just that he's slightly more at risk than the aforementioned five.

Then further down we have Daisy and Doctor Mario. There's a historical precedent that clones and semi-clones tend to make up the bulk of cuts, so they'd likely be lower priority. Out of the two, I'd say Daisy is slightly more likely to return due to her popularity and ease of creation even relative to Doc, whereas Doc has been cut before. Piranha Plant would be last. They were incredibly low priority in Ultimate, having been moved from base game to early adopter DLC, and are from a series with a lot of other higher-priority characters.

Zelda:
Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are obviously not going anywhere lol. Sheik is likely staying as well, though in a scenario with substantial cuts I could see her eventually going. But she's likely staying. Sakurai has said in the past that having two Links, one adult and one child, is important to him, but in the context of cuts we don't know how important it is relative to other potential cuts. Toon Link I would say is more likely to be kept over Young Link when it comes down to it though. By a good amount, too. I really don't see Young Link coming back outside of the nigh-impossible Everyone is Back.

Fire Emblem:
Even in the event of some of the harshest roster cuts known to man, I cannot see Marth, Ike, or Byleth getting cut. In addition, I cannot see us losing all three Awakening characters, as I absolutely think at least one out of Chrom, Lucina, or Robin will be kept. The question then is who, and I believe all three have merits. It's kind of funny that their popularity among Fire Emblem fans is also like...inversely-proportional to how unique they are in Smash lol. Robin is more unique than Chrom, who is more unique than Lucina. In the Fire Emblem fanbase, Lucina is more popular than Chrom, who is more popular than Robin. But Chrom, who would otherwise be the middle of both popularity and uniqueness, is also the only one of the three to have his popularity as a Smash candidate directly acknowledged on several occasions by Sakurai. I could even see a scenario where he returns without Roy, which is the only echo where I can say that, due to the fact that he still retains like, just as much from Marth as he does Roy.

Roy would then be next, due to his popularity, but offset by him being lower priority in the past. Finally, there's Corrin, who I think is probably the most likely of the eight to be cut.

 

[dream1ng]

you seem to be delibreatly missing the point that who actually is most popular doesnt matter cause tpc has this poll which will probably be good enough for them and quite possibly be good enough for sakurai. you say the poll doesnt matter cause its not actually right but that doesnt matter cause it was a case of them asking the fans for their top choice the exact same situation as the smash ballot

sunshine you stared this off by saying it was impossible for some of them to get cut that would make them top priority, now youre saying none of them are?

The poll isn't the trump card you think it is. You know who won TPC's official poll the year after Greninja? Dedenne. Yeah. Dedenne. Greninja came in 16th. Like I said, the poll isn't emblematic of the entire Pokemon audience. In the entire Pokemon audience, Mewtwo and Squirtle are more popular, and both have been cut before.

Also, if we go by the your poll, Greninja would get in over Pikachu and Charizard. Which it won't. As would Lucario. Which it won't. Because obviously other factors are at play as well. And if Sakurai prioritizes other characters, GF isn't going to swoop in. They care about active promotion, and have shown they are fine with popular vets being cut.

I think if anything this proves the point by people still not being able to definitively claim Greninja would absolutely be retained over the other characters, which implies possible outcomes where it isn't. Just as there are outcomes where it is, and those others are cut. It depends on the amount of cuts, and what qualities in the vets they give priority to. It could be a certain kind of popularity. It could be general recognizability. It could be Smash attendance. Not all of those benefit Greninja above the other options. Remember, they kept Jigglypuff over Mewtwo.

And no, raincloud, I said Pikachu and Charizard are safe. That's what this started from. I never said the others were absolutely safe. I think all those other examples are ones that can in theory be cut as well, you're just focusing on Greninja. But in your argument Dedenne would have priority over Charizard. It also won TPC's official poll.

Figured I'd throw in my own two cents on the Poképriority topic. Basically, should substantial cuts happen, this is how I see the series pecking order.

Pikachu > Charizard > Mewtwo > Lucario > Greninja > Newcomer >> Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle+Ivysaur) >> Incineroar > Jigglypuff >> Pichu


Anyone listed above "Newcomer" are the ones I personally think are absolutely safe. I don't see Pokémon dipping below six fighters next time and that set of six makes the most sense to me.

I think the problem is a character which is likely mandated by TPC, being the newcomer, isn't going to be under characters that might be quite likely to return, but certainly aren't going to be non-negotiable additions. I think any character that is non-negotiable by the licensor has to go at the top.

To that end, I'd put the newcomer right under Pikachu, or maybe Charizard. I don't think TPC cooperates unless they get the promo newcomer. But if anyone other than probably Pikachu get cut - chances of that happening notwithstanding - I think TPC still is on board.

 

[Opossum]

The poll isn't the trump card you think it is. You know who won TPC's official poll the year after Greninja? Dedenne. Yeah. Dedenne. Greninja came in 16th. Like I said, the poll isn't emblematic of the entire Pokemon audience. In the entire Pokemon audience, Mewtwo and Squirtle are more popular, and both have been cut before.

Also, if we go by the your poll, Greninja would get in over Pikachu and Charizard. Which it won't. As would Lucario. Which it won't. Because obviously other factors are at play as well. And if Sakurai prioritizes other characters, GF isn't going to swoop in. They care about active promotion, and have shown they are fine with popular vets being cut.

I think if anything this proves the point by people still not being able to definitively claim Greninja would absolutely be retained over the other characters, which implies possible outcomes where it isn't. Just as there are outcomes where it is, and those others are cut. It depends on the amount of cuts, and what qualities in the vets they give priority to. It could be a certain kind of popularity. It could be general recognizability. It could be Smash attendance. Not all of those benefit Greninja above the other options. Remember, they kept Jigglypuff over Mewtwo.

And no, raincloud, I said Pikachu and Charizard are safe. That's what this started from. I never said the others were absolutely safe. I think all those other examples are ones that can in theory be cut as well, you're just focusing on Greninja. But in your argument Dedenne would have priority over Charizard. It also won TPC's official poll.


I think the problem is a character which is likely mandated by TPC, being the newcomer, isn't going to be under characters that might be quite likely to return, but certainly aren't going to be non-negotiable additions. I think any character that is non-negotiable by the licensor has to go at the top.

To that end, I'd put the newcomer right under Pikachu, or maybe Charizard. I don't think TPC cooperates unless they get the promo newcomer. But if anyone other than probably Pikachu get cut - chances of that happening notwithstanding - I think TPC still is on board.

I agree in regards to the newcomer likely being like, mandated lmao. I mentioned it in the post but in case it wasn't clear, I placed "Newcomer" where I did to signify that I genuinely don't think the next game's Pokémon roster would dip below six Pokémon. As such, I showed that by putting the obligatory Newcomer in the sixth slot.

 

[Perkilator]

On the topic of Fire Emblem, I can name one should’ve made it instead of Corrin.

 

[Diddy Kong]

On the topic of Fire Emblem, I can name one should’ve made it instead of Corrin.

Yeah, no. Azura has certain merrits but is overal not more important than Corrin in the story of FE Fates, which I recently replayed. There's absolutely no scenario that would've happened. If Azura would've happened, it would've been alongside Corrin. And even that I doubt. She's decently important, sure, but not moreso than say, Ryoma and Xander, they carry the plot harder than her.

 

[skylanders fan]

Idk as much as Ryoma and Xander do play a part I just don’t see them doing one and not the other while you could do Azura by herself if we only had one option for smash

 

[Ivander]

Finally, there's Corrin, who I think is probably the most likely of the eight to be cut.

---
Meme aside, I see Corrin getting cut as very unlikely. While Corrin is seen as a sore spot by some Smash fans,

• Female Corrin is still very popular among Fire Emblem fans, if her CYL Popularity means anything. And Male Corrin has been slowly been rising up in popularity, considering this year, he was actually in the Top 20 of CYL, let alone the Top 15, something he never accomplished the last 5 CYL Events.
• They are still one of the more unique Fire Emblem newcomers, and the major complaint has been toward the Fire Emblem Sword characters who play too similarly.
• They are a playable Manakete/Dragon, an important part of Fire Emblem. And probably one of the more easier ones to incorporate without some major transformation gimmick, since most other Manaketes cannot semi-transform the way Corrin does.
• Plus it was members of the team behind Smash Bros. who really wanted Corrin and were the ones who convinced Sakurai to add them. If the same team came back for the next Smash Bros., I wouldn't be surprised if they tried convincing to bring Corrin back.
• Not to mention Fates, despite it's story reception, still sold a ton of copies.

Ultimately, Sakurai or the new Director is the one who ultimately chooses who stays and goes, so I really don't know what will happen with Fire Emblem. Like it's one of the really tricky ones because all of the characters do have popularity, including Corrin. Marth is the main Lord who's more than likely to stay for being the first main character. Lucina will more than likely stay with him if she stays as an Echo. Ike, Robin, Corrin and Byleth all have unique movesets from the rest of the cast, which is one of the things fans want is more unique Fire Emblem characters. And Roy and Chrom were brought by popular demand.

Like it's one of those things where regardless if you keep them or take one away, there's going to be unhappiness. And probably more if one of the unique Fire Emblem characters is taken out and we end up getting another Fire Emblem Echo Fighter or a rather lackluster one that doesn't really offer anything different compared to the one taken out.

 

[fogbadge]

The poll isn't the trump card you think it is. You know who won TPC's official poll the year after Greninja? Dedenne. Yeah. Dedenne. Greninja came in 16th. Like I said, the poll isn't emblematic of the entire Pokemon audience. In the entire Pokemon audience, Mewtwo and Squirtle are more popular, and both have been cut before.

Also, if we go by the your poll, Greninja would get in over Pikachu and Charizard. Which it won't. As would Lucario. Which it won't. Because obviously other factors are at play as well. And if Sakurai prioritizes other characters, GF isn't going to swoop in. They care about active promotion, and have shown they are fine with popular vets being cut.

I think if anything this proves the point by people still not being able to definitively claim Greninja would absolutely be retained over the other characters, which implies possible outcomes where it isn't. Just as there are outcomes where it is, and those others are cut. It depends on the amount of cuts, and what qualities in the vets they give priority to. It could be a certain kind of popularity. It could be general recognizability. It could be Smash attendance. Not all of those benefit Greninja above the other options. Remember, they kept Jigglypuff over Mewtwo.

And no, raincloud, I said Pikachu and Charizard are safe. That's what this started from. I never said the others were absolutely safe. I think all those other examples are ones that can in theory be cut as well, you're just focusing on Greninja. But in your argument Dedenne would have priority over Charizard. It also won TPC's official poll.

mewtwos popularity isnt the trump card you think it is youre argument is based on an assumption of the fandom. how can you possibly know who is most popular and how can you possibly know who people like more? have you actually spoken to every last pokemon fan on the planet? youre assertion that they are more popular isnt based on anything. you cant know what the entire pokemon audience thinks.

you know what really skews the perception of popularity? counting people who arent fans any more. half the people out there who say they love mewtwo havent played a pokemon since gen 1. thats not real popularity thats nostalgia. and recognizability doesnt matter to smash. youre priority list is based on an outdated perception of the fandom

Byleth technically represents all three houses in one moveset, so there's no need for a second Three Houses rep.

and thats still only 3 quarters of the game

 

[Opossum]

---
Meme aside, I see Corrin getting cut as very unlikely. While Corrin is seen as a sore spot by some Smash fans,

• Female Corrin is still very popular among Fire Emblem fans, if her CYL Popularity means anything. And Male Corrin has been slowly been rising up in popularity, considering this year, he was actually in the Top 20 of CYL, let alone the Top 15, something he never accomplished the last 5 CYL Events.
• They are still one of the more unique Fire Emblem newcomers, and the major complaint has been toward the Fire Emblem Sword characters who play too similarly.
• They are a playable Manakete/Dragon, an important part of Fire Emblem. And probably one of the more easier ones to incorporate without some major transformation gimmick, since most other Manaketes cannot semi-transform the way Corrin does.
• Plus it was members of the team behind Smash Bros. who really wanted Corrin and were the ones who convinced Sakurai to add them. If the same team came back for the next Smash Bros., I wouldn't be surprised if they tried convincing to bring Corrin back.
• Not to mention Fates, despite it's story reception, still sold a ton of copies.

Ultimately, Sakurai or the new Director is the one who ultimately chooses who stays and goes, so I really don't know what will happen with Fire Emblem. Like it's one of the really tricky ones because all of the characters do have popularity, including Corrin. Marth is the main Lord who's more than likely to stay for being the first main character. Lucina will more than likely stay with him if she stays as an Echo. Ike, Robin, Corrin and Byleth all have unique movesets from the rest of the cast, which is one of the things fans want is more unique Fire Emblem characters. And Roy and Chrom were brought by popular demand.

Like it's one of those things where regardless if you keep them or take one away, there's going to be unhappiness. And probably more if one of the unique Fire Emblem characters is taken out and we end up getting another Fire Emblem Echo Fighter or a rather lackluster one that doesn't really offer anything different compared to the one taken out.

If anything I'd say CYL is a good indicator of one reason why Corrin is, imo, the least likely to return. Out of the Fire Emblem characters in Smash, Male Corrin is like, by far the least popular to an almost embarrassing degree. Across the six polls, he routinely ranks between 40th-80th place while pretty much everyone else is either in the top twenty consistently, or won the whole thing immediately. Yeah, Female Corrin usually ranks within the top ten female characters, but the sheer gap between her popularity and Male Corrin's popularity is more severe than every other avatar character. Like, the only Lord that Male Corrin routinely does better than is Leif...and he's the lord of an infamously-hard Japan-only SNES title that only got an actually decent fan translation a couple of years ago. That doesn't really inspire confidence.

I'm not saying Corrin is meritless, but CYL isn't exactly an indicator in Corrin's favor, and especially not Male Corrin.

 

[dream1ng]

mewtwos popularity isnt the trump card you think it is youre argument is based on an assumption of the fandom. how can you possibly know who is most popular and how can you possibly know who people like more? have you actually spoken to every last pokemon fan on the planet? youre assertion that they are more popular isnt based on anything. you cant know what the entire pokemon audience thinks.

you know what really skews the perception of popularity? counting people who arent fans any more. half the people out there who say they love mewtwo havent played a pokemon since gen 1. thats not real popularity thats nostalgia. and recognizability doesnt matter to smash. youre priority list is based on an outdated perception of the fandom

If your argument is that Mewtwo used to be more popular, I'd remind you that that alleged era is much closer to when he was cut. So... not really helping your position.

 

[fogbadge]

If your argument is that Mewtwo used to be more popular, I'd remind you that that alleged era is much closer to when he was cut. So... not really helping your position.

you mean he was 3 gens old and had fallen from the spotlight? When people had moved onto deoxys and sceptile.
The argument is smart guy that you’re assertions of who’s the most popular are meaningless. What puts your views on who’s the most loved Pokémon on any higher level that any other way we have of telling? And you think you’re position is strong when you’re basically saying he’s more popular because I say so.
you also seems to have forgotten that I have suggested greninja and lucario may have been more popular than he ever was

 

[Opossum]

you also seems to have forgotten that I have suggested greninja and lucario may have been more popular than he ever was

Absolutely not lmao. Lucario and Greninja are incredibly popular Pokémon, yes, but Mewtwo goes beyond that: to truly iconic status alongside Pikachu and Charizard.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo is definitely popular still, it was one of the few Pokemon to get 2 Mega Evolutions for example, the other I know of being Charizard. If that's not huge, I don't know what is. It also got another movie, and am sure there's way more. Mewtwo isn't going anywhere honestly lol

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mewtwo is definitely popular still, it was one of the few Pokemon to get 2 Mega Evolutions for example, the other I know of being Charizard. If that's not huge, I don't know what is. It also got another movie, and am sure there's way more. Mewtwo isn't going anywhere honestly lol

Especially now that it's been remade in the game, so the assets are much easier to transfer over. Brawl couldn't get everyone playable as intended(as we saw by the Forbidden 7) and it's a lot harder to make playable than Jigglypuff, who barely made it in due to ease of development. 4 it had to be DLC due to no longer having full assets. Not an issue for Ultimate anymore.

The only thing that would prevent it from returning, frankly, is The Pokemon Company barring it, and it doesn't seem likely that they will. Though a new Director might also be a factor, if they do a reboot(and even then, Mewtwo is massively popular enough to be kept. At worst it's fighting with Charizard for a second spot if Pokemon was reduced to two total characters(meaning no Pokemon Trainer, since that's three characters)).

 

[fogbadge]

Mewtwo is definitely popular still, it was one of the few Pokemon to get 2 Mega Evolutions for example, the other I know of being Charizard. If that's not huge, I don't know what is. It also got another movie, and am sure there's way more. Mewtwo isn't going anywhere honestly lol

iconicness isnt the same as popularity. just cause you know about something doesnt mean you like it

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Mewtwo strikes me as one that will essentially be grandfathered in to many releases, because they were so prominent and so early on. There is a reason that particular Pokémon, Charizard, and Pikachu were so prominent in the recent live action film, after all.