Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Diddy Kong]

As an aside, is anyone else thinking it's possible that Rex could end up getting the Chrom treatment? I mean, much like Chrom, Pyra/Mythra's trailer poked fun at how Rex was seeming like such a sure thing. However, what if he still made it in as an Echo of someone else? I mean, it could probably work if his sword abilities are kept basic enough (or, in a further allusion to Chrom, he could be a semi-clone that very loosely fits into what counts as an Echo).

Yes. But I see it happening in the case of a Pyra and Mythra rework, that Rex, Pyra and Mythra all work as one character as opposed to only the Aegis girls. Basically a moveset revamp that makes Rex the main focus.

I wouldn't exactly want it, am cool with Pyra and Mythra by themselves, but it's a possibility I feel.

 

[Stratos]

When I learned that Rare did what it wanted to do even after the acquisition by Microsoft, then I think again whether it should be acquired by Nintendo or not. I honestly haven't played any of Rare's games, but they seemed to fit Nintendo so well. Especially in the Banjo-Kazooie series, Mario has been mentioned. Because Banjo and Conker made their debut in Diddy Kong Racing which is a Donkey Kong game, I would say that they are in the same universe as Donkey Kong and since the grandfather of today's Donkey Kong made his debut with Mario , I would say they are and with Mario these two are in the same universe. In short, the Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario, Yoshi, Banjo-Kazooie and Conker series are in the same universe.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes. But I see it happening in the case of a Pyra and Mythra rework, that Rex, Pyra and Mythra all work as one character as opposed to only the Aegis girls. Basically a moveset revamp that makes Rex the main focus.

I wouldn't exactly want it, am cool with Pyra and Mythra by themselves, but it's a possibility I feel.

This would probably only happen if the entire framework is reworked.

If the next Smash is similar in gameplay, I expect Pyra/Mythra to return as they are.

 

[SPEN18]

Still, Rosalina got in after being playable in 3DW. Also, Jr. was hated by the fans for replacing the Koopalings circa Brawl. It would take NSMBW to mitigate the opposition to Jr.

The fact that they were planning, through things like 3D World, to keep Rosalina relevant beyond the Galaxy saga definitely helped her get in. But they still added her at the earliest possible opportunity. They did not do any waiting or seeing, and the character generally had really good timing that helped her get in.

I remember Jr. being a largely popular request for Smash. I do remember some hate for him but it was not really any different than what any other popular request gets.
They waited with Jr., yeah, but that's just one character that I do not think Sakurai values as highly given his history of lower priority.

but Lucario and Incineroar were too?

The specific choice of Incineroar itself was apparently decided after Ultra Sun and Moon released, but a slot was held open for a PKMN, and it's pretty safe to assume this slot was for a recent PKMN or else there would be no reason to wait (this is per a Sakurai interview).

Lucario I may have to correct myself on as I cannot find a source for when he was decided. It seems likely that it was a similar situation to Greninja/Incineroar, though, given that history.

They are all still pretty blatantly "recent game advertising" picks added very early in their respective histories, however, which is what the actual argument was about.

Honestly, Zelda games after the "Wild Saga" seem poised to continue to be just as special. The Zelda team clearly doesn't feel obligated to repeat the "two buttons to assign items" system or the "two acts of dungeons" structure, so they're not going to feel obligated to maintain everything BotW brought.

The series simply weakened after Majora's Mask and fell into a full-on slump with Twilight Princess lasting until Skyward Sword, partly due to technical limitations introducing difficulties making and filling up explorable worlds, and partly because they tried to chase the conventional storytelling that was popular circa the PS3/360/Wii gen despite it objectively gelling poorly with the video game medium. Also, the Zelda team clearly has no talent at conventional storytelling.

The Wild Saga won't be another peak, mark my words. It will be a stepping stone for just as great or greater things.

BotW (just the first one on its own) is widely considered one of the best and most influential games of all time, with sales to back it up as well. On that basis I think a BotW-exclusive rep is justifiable, even outside of Link being stylized after BotW (which I oppose in favor of classic Link anyway). It has nothing to do with how the series might go from here on but rather has to do with the legacy established already.

I don't see how TP and SS were a "slump." The sales are in line with the rest of the series and the critical receptions were very good from basically all major outlets. They are not perfect games and you might have personal problems with them, but they were very high-quality games.

Don't underestimate the importance of being a numerous threat and dying en masse. Would you argue that Stormtroopers in Star Wars aren't iconic?

"Numerous threat" does not amount to importance, especially when there are many such mooks and no such species individually has a specific role beyond being a minor recurring obstacle.

To the question: no, but despite being recognizable or iconic, the Stormtroopers do not qualify as "allstars" by any stretch of the imagination.

I keep saying this, but Impa is simply too inconsistent to provide a good idea of how she could fight. Giving her pretty much anything, made up or based in canon, is asking for a Ganondorf/Wario situation.

I don't think that's a reason to exclude the character altogether. I don't think hardly anyone wants Ganon/Ganondorf or Wario removed altogether, at least not these days with a 50+ character roster.

I'd always been in favor of having BotW Link as the base Link while the old TP and/or OoT Link is classed as an echo.

My bigger priority with Link is just having one of them. I'd willingly take the current alt costume setup over basically anything more elaborate, and really the current setup isn't bad despite the left-/right-handedness issue (even Skyward Sword has the right-handedness anyway). I just vastly prefer the classic look and would like that at least as the default.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think Link won't be based around BotW next Smash, BotW is getting a sequel after all. And BotW marked a new era for the series. I think Zelda will be based around BotW too, maybe even Ganon(dorf). A newcomer in the form of a Champion and Impa would also bring much needed freshness. I just honestly can't make my mind up about Sheik, Toon Link and Ganondorf.

I'd like them to stay, but they only seem to stagnate the representation of Zelda, especially Sheik. It's already more than clear to me that Young Link is one of the least prioritized characters next game, but going back to another cycle of Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Sheik and Toon Link is just boring and outdated.

I'd much rather throw out Ganondorf for a humanoid version of Calamity Ganon, and throw out Sheik and Toon Link to make room for Impa and a Champion. I can't picture that many Zelda characters on the Smash roster, and I can't picture it NOT getting a newcomer (or two), hence cuts are a likely probability for the Zelda series. But also Fire Emblem, Pokemon and even Mario (also part of the reason I asked that one question in one of my previous posts that's seemingly ignored but that's cool).

 

[Arcanir]

The specific choice of Incineroar itself was apparently decided after Ultra Sun and Moon released, but a slot was held open for a PKMN, and it's pretty safe to assume this slot was for a recent PKMN or else there would be no reason to wait (this is per a Sakurai interview).

Lucario I may have to correct myself on as I cannot find a source for when he was decided. It seems likely that it was a similar situation to Greninja/Incineroar, though, given that history.

They are all still pretty blatantly "recent game advertising" picks added very early in their respective histories, however, which is what the actual argument was about.

Lucario is a strange case in that you could argue he was picked based on the recent game advertising ideology, he had a couple major differences in his presence. Unlike Greninja he was known to the public before the project plan was picked as his movie came out before Sakurai started shopping around for characters, so Sakurai had the opportunity to potentially get the reception of the character from fans before deciding on a pick, which is something Greninja didn't get as Sakurai admitted it happened before XY's release and the positive reception he got had no bearing as a result.

Another thing is that we know that while Lucario was planned for the game, he seems to have been lower priority. In a Miiverse post that revealed Lucario for Smash 4 Sakurai gave a quick glimpse into Brawl's development by saying that if it wasn't for the work of the team back in Brawl, he wouldn't have made it into the game. Considering we have no similar statement for PT, a fellow Pokemon newcomer who didn't have as much recency, it seems like the idea of having to reserve a slot for a newer Pokemon was not a priority back in that time. Lucario, even if he was chosen for that reason, was a character they were willing to put aside if time and resources did not allow. That is different from Greninja and Incineroar, where they had designated work set aside from them once they decided on the character and probably would've more likely pushed out a character lower priority then be low priority themselves based on how they were talked about.

So I wouldn't say that he completely fits the 'recent game advertising' archetype as Incineroar and especially Greninja define as he did have a chance to take public reception into account and his 'slot' was not nearly as safe as the other two's. If history played out differently we could've had a Brawl with just Pikachu, PT, and maybe Jigglypuff.

 

[dream1ng]

I've honestly never played Xenosaga, though I have long been interested, and might track down the PS2 games if a Switch (or later Nintendo console) port never ends up happening. That said, I started pushing for KOS-MOS around the end of Smash4's DLC cycle, when it was brought up that Bandai Namco are lacking in their own characters as well as the fact that Xenosaga is a predecessor of sorts to Xenoblade (I honestly didn't notice the connection and thought the title was just a coincidence at the time). KOS-MOS gained a lot of traction during Fighter5 speculation, but while a lot of people seem to have dropped off after that, I've only been even further convinced that she should get in after learning more and more about how relevant she is to Monolith Soft (who have, themselves, proven to be a major asset to Nintendo).

Right, yeah. And KOS-MOS is another good example. Attention around her really picked up for a minute, despite her so-so actual chances. Bandwagon characters are actually quite common within the fanbase to the point that the stigma seems unwarranted. Most of the popular characters would never have been able to reach the heights they reached, which in some cases culminated in inclusion, without some bandwagoning happening.

Popularity is popularity. Once it's there, how it formed is honestly immaterial. People mostly just focus on the flavor of the week characters where that popularity seems to fade as suddenly as it arose.

 

[SPEN18]

that one question in one of my previous posts that's seemingly ignored but that's cool

The one about Mario/PKMN/FE/Zelda representation in a "reboot" scenario? It depends a lot on what kind of reboot you have in mind, specifically what total roster size. In a Brawl-sized roster of 30-40 characters it makes sense IMO to keep the biggest series to just 4 or so reps in order to get enough smaller franchises in, with maybe just 3 or so for FE. If you go to the 50-60 characters in Smash 4 then I could see more like 6 uniques each, but again a bit less for FE. In an Ultimate-sized roster with a greater proportion of non-clones that only gives a few slots to third parties, we get pretty close to my ideal.

If you specify then I can give you sample rosters for Mario, Zelda, etc. based on how I'd do it.

 

[dream1ng]

I think it's easier to conceive which characters are absolutely safe and then the rest fall along some sort of spectrum of cut likelihood from unlikely but not impossible to entirely plausible.

If you're looking at Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and FE, I'd say the safe characters are and possibly and. Anyone else from those series getting cut is not inconceivable to me, though of course some are much likelier than others.

 

[fogbadge]

I think it's easier to conceive which characters are absolutely safe and then the rest fall along some sort of spectrum of cut likelihood from unlikely but not impossible to entirely plausible.

If you're looking at Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and FE, I'd say the safe characters are and possibly and. Anyone else from those series getting cut is not inconceivable to me, though of course some are much likelier than others.

greninja was voted fan favourite a couple years back so I’d say he’s safe

 

[Diddy Kong]

The one about Mario/PKMN/FE/Zelda representation in a "reboot" scenario? It depends a lot on what kind of reboot you have in mind, specifically what total roster size. In a Brawl-sized roster of 30-40 characters it makes sense IMO to keep the biggest series to just 4 or so reps in order to get enough smaller franchises in, with maybe just 3 or so for FE. If you go to the 50-60 characters in Smash 4 then I could see more like 6 uniques each, but again a bit less for FE. In an Ultimate-sized roster with a greater proportion of non-clones that only gives a few slots to third parties, we get pretty close to my ideal.

If you specify then I can give you sample rosters for Mario, Zelda, etc. based on how I'd do it.

I honestly don't think any Smash from now on will have a roster smaller than 60-70 characters. So if that's around the maximum size, I'd like to hear your thoughts

 

[dream1ng]

greninja was voted fan favourite a couple years back so I’d say he’s safe

I don't think Greninja is the likeliest to be cut, but people gotta remember that that poll is a tiny tiny fraction of ****ing Pokemon's total audience. The online voting audience may gravitate towards Greninja, but, like, in general, a character like Squirtle is gonna take it over him, because it's just so much more well known.

Greninja isn't actually the most popular Pokemon.

 

[fogbadge]

I don't think Greninja is the likeliest to be cut, but people gotta remember that that poll is a tiny tiny fraction of ****ing Pokemon's total audience. The online voting audience may gravitate towards Greninja, but, like, in general, a character like Squirtle is gonna take it over him, because it's just so much more well known.

Greninja isn't actually the most popular Pokemon.

it was a poll run by tpc so it’ll probably be good enough for them

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't think Greninja is the likeliest to be cut, but people gotta remember that that poll is a tiny tiny fraction of ****ing Pokemon's total audience. The online voting audience may gravitate towards Greninja, but, like, in general, a character like Squirtle is gonna take it over him, because it's just so much more well known.

Greninja isn't actually the most popular Pokemon.

Although they gave it an entire new form in the anime which was eventually ported over to the games.

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't think Greninja is the likeliest to be cut, but people gotta remember that that poll is a tiny tiny fraction of ****ing Pokemon's total audience. The online voting audience may gravitate towards Greninja, but, like, in general, a character like Squirtle is gonna take it over him, because it's just so much more well known.

Greninja isn't actually the most popular Pokemon.

Although they gave it an entire new form in the anime which was eventually ported over to the games.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

regarding genshin I don’t see Nintendo or Sakurai going for a small gaming company and even when they do it’s usually for Mii costume just like indies

Genshin is not a small indie game bro. It’s huge.

Beating Japan at Its Own (Video) Game: A Smash Hit From China

Genshin Impact, a nearly picture-perfect reproduction of Japanese fantasy role-playing games, has raked in billions of dollars and sent shock waves through the world’s aging video game superpower.

www.nytimes.com

When the grey lady, one of the biggest if not the biggest newspaper in the world, reports about how your multi billion dollar grossing game has taken Japan by storm, you are not a small gaming company anymore. The game is huge. It’s making bank in Japan, which is notably very hostile to foreign games. Here, a Chinese game literally is getting over a third of its profits from Japan. That’s nuts, and there is no sign of it stopping anytime soon. Unless miHoYo punts hard and Genshin crashes, it’s not going away anytime soon.

I don’t like Genshin, but at least do not say something that blatantly false lol.

I don't think Greninja is the likeliest to be cut, but people gotta remember that that poll is a tiny tiny fraction of ****ing Pokemon's total audience. The online voting audience may gravitate towards Greninja, but, like, in general, a character like Squirtle is gonna take it over him, because it's just so much more well known.

Greninja isn't actually the most popular Pokemon.

It’s been twice voted the most popular Pokémon in Japan. Even if that is a small portion of the fan base, you can clearly see Game Freak and TPC have a soft spot for Gren that very few non Lucario non Gen 1 Pokémon can brag about. Even then, Greninja has historically done great in tons of Pokémon popularity polls in the west especially for a non gen 1 Pokémon.

Greninja isn’t getting cut anyway, anyone that thinks they would cut Greninja is being dumb. Even if you wanted to go in on cuts, Gren is not one in the danger zone. He’s just too popular in Japan among Pokémon fans to cut. I know a very vocal, very small minority has this unhealthy fascination with thanos snapping the roster, but they are not going to cut the most popular Pokémon since Gen 4 from the roster.

 

[dream1ng]

Well, picture this - the next Smash cuts out maybe a third of the roster, and therein, Pokemon loses at least three characters. Pikachu, Charizard, and Mewtwo stay, because obviously. Jigglypuff is kept because of posterity. Posterity and popularity also keep Lucario around. With Charizard already there, and given they are highly recognizable Pokemon in their own right, they decide to keep Squirtle and Ivysaur.

Pichu is cut, because... c'mon. Incineroar is cut, because it just lacks the merit to outweigh the competitors. Depending on how extensive the cuts are, they may extend to Greninja. Who is popular, but hasn't stuck around as long as other characters, and isn't as immediately prolific as most of the Gen 1 choices.

I think that's a feasible hypothetical scenario. Of course there are many scenarios in which Greninja stays as well, but I'm just saying I don't think the character is safe under every outcome. Like if cuts are not insubstantial and they prioritize attendance history and overall recognizability.

Are you saying that situation is impossible?

it was a poll run by tpc so it’ll probably be good enough for them

TPC's priority is to promote their newest gen, not make sure all the veterans return. They were fine with Mewtwo getting cut, they were fine with Squirtle getting cut; apart from probably Pikachu, they're fine with cuts.

Although they gave it an entire new form in the anime which was eventually ported over to the games.

Well unfortunately the other veterans are made up by the likes of Pikachu, Charizard, Squirtle, Lucario and Mewtwo. It might get edged out, depending on the extensiveness of the cuts.

 

[SPEN18]

Lucario is a strange case in that you could argue he was picked based on the recent game advertising ideology, he had a couple major differences in his presence. Unlike Greninja he was known to the public before the project plan was picked as his movie came out before Sakurai started shopping around for characters, so Sakurai had the opportunity to potentially get the reception of the character from fans before deciding on a pick, which is something Greninja didn't get as Sakurai admitted it happened before XY's release and the positive reception he got had no bearing as a result.

Another thing is that we know that while Lucario was planned for the game, he seems to have been lower priority. In a Miiverse post that revealed Lucario for Smash 4 Sakurai gave a quick glimpse into Brawl's development by saying that if it wasn't for the work of the team back in Brawl, he wouldn't have made it into the game. Considering we have no similar statement for PT, a fellow Pokemon newcomer who didn't have as much recency, it seems like the idea of having to reserve a slot for a newer Pokemon was not a priority back in that time. Lucario, even if he was chosen for that reason, was a character they were willing to put aside if time and resources did not allow. That is different from Greninja and Incineroar, where they had designated work set aside from them once they decided on the character and probably would've more likely pushed out a character lower priority then be low priority themselves based on how they were talked about.

So I wouldn't say that he completely fits the 'recent game advertising' archetype as Incineroar and especially Greninja define as he did have a chance to take public reception into account and his 'slot' was not nearly as safe as the other two's. If history played out differently we could've had a Brawl with just Pikachu, PT, and maybe Jigglypuff.

Some good points, though I'll note that Incineroar may have also been fairly low priority given that it was added later in development, it was one of the last newcomers in base, and the dev team had to focus on making sure EiH was complete. And in the end, being lower-priority blatant advertising is still being blatant advertising. Also, Jigglypuff was probably even lower priority than Lucario, especially given its lack of involvement in SSE; I feel that the only way we would've gotten Jigglypuff without Lucario would've been if Lucario was decided so late that even really high priority wouldn't have gotten him finished (though I don't see a way to confirm this).

Diddy Kong I will respond to you in a separate post later.

 

[dream1ng]

It’s been twice voted the most popular Pokémon in Japan. Even if that is a small portion of the fan base, you can clearly see Game Freak and TPC have a soft spot for Gren that very few non Lucario non Gen 1 Pokémon can brag about. Even then, Greninja has historically done great in tons of Pokémon popularity polls in the west especially for a non gen 1 Pokémon.

Greninja isn’t getting cut anyway, anyone that thinks they would cut Greninja is being dumb. Even if you wanted to go in on cuts, Gren is not one in the danger zone. He’s just too popular in Japan among Pokémon fans to cut. I know a very vocal, very small minority has this unhealthy fascination with thanos snapping the roster, but they are not going to cut the most popular Pokémon since Gen 4 from the roster.

Overall, Mewtwo is a more popular Pokemon than Greninja. And Mewtwo has been cut.

It's entirely feasible they give priority to Pikachu, Mewtwo, Trainer, Lucario, Jigglypuff, a newcomer, and at that point a roster revamp takes care of the rest. Because that's already eight Pokemon characters, time and resources are finite, and the roster is paring itself down.

I'm not saying Greninja will absolutely get cut. I'm just saying I see scenarios in which it does.

 

[fogbadge]

Well, picture this - the next Smash cuts out maybe a third of the roster, and therein, Pokemon loses at least three characters. Pikachu, Charizard, and Mewtwo stay, because obviously. Jigglypuff is kept because of posterity. Posterity and popularity also keep Lucario around. With Charizard already there, and given they are highly recognizable Pokemon in their own right, they decide to keep Squirtle and Ivysaur.

Pichu is cut, because... c'mon. Incineroar is cut, because it just lacks the merit to outweigh the competitors. Depending on how extensive the cuts are, they may extend to Greninja. Who is popular, but hasn't stuck around as long as other characters, and isn't as immediately prolific as most of the Gen 1 choices.

I think that's a feasible hypothetical scenario. Of course there are many scenarios in which Greninja stays as well, but I'm just saying I don't think the character is safe under every outcome. Like if cuts are not insubstantial and they prioritize attendance history and overall recognizability.

Are you saying that situation is impossible?


TPC's priority is to promote their newest gen, not make sure all the veterans return. They were fine with Mewtwo getting cut, they were fine with Squirtle getting cut; apart from probably Pikachu, they're fine with cuts.


Well unfortunately the other veterans are made up by the likes of Pikachu, Charizard, Squirtle, Lucario and Mewtwo. It might get edged out, depending on the extensiveness of the cuts.

yes but greninja is apparently more popular than all of them so surely that gives him an edge? There’s no real way of knowing who actually is the most popular Pokemon the best we can do is that poll that was a bit similar to that poll that decided the most popular Kirby copy ability. Oh and that one that influenced ultimates roster. I’m not sure mewtwo was even the most popular gen 1 Pokemon I think your assertions may be based on a perception of the fandom that it’s moved on from

more to the point if sakurai is aware of the poll results which is likely then surely he’d be keen to keep him when again as far as they are aware he’s more popular than the other 9 Pokémon that are in smash

 

[dream1ng]

yes but greninja is apparently more popular than all of them so surely that gives him an edge? There’s no real way of knowing who actually is the most popular Pokemon the best we can do is that poll that was a bit similar to that poll that decided the most popular Kirby copy ability. Oh and that one that influenced ultimates roster. I’m not sure mewtwo was even the most popular gen 1 Pokemon I think your assertions may be based on a perception of the fandom that it’s moved on from

If you think Greninja is more popular than Pikachu or Charizard or Mewtwo in general, I don't know what to tell you. That poll's demographics is going to skew away from the less involved Pokemon fan, who is going to favor Gen 1 staples.

It's not an indictment of Greninja's popularity. It's saying that there is obviously a reality in which they prioritize general popularity and longtime Smash attendance, and then by virtue of how extensive cuts are, not everyone can make it back.

You can't stack Greninja up against the hundreds of Pokemon not on the roster. You can't cut those because they're not there. He's up against the small apex of the series that is, and what may be a limited number of spots. One of which will go to a newcomer.

And so, I think the most telling aspect is no one has raised an alternative Pokemon they would absolutely cut over Greninja of those vets I've suggested could have priority. Would Greninja get in over Jigglypuff? Maybe, but not necessarily. Over Squirtle and Ivysaur? Maybe, but not necessarily. Over Lucario? It's hardly a sure thing. You could vouch for any of these character to return, because they're all qualified. And on the flipside, because of the quantity and quality of Pokemon's roster, someone with merit may still wind up getting cut. It could be Greninja. It could be Jigglypuff. It could be Squirtle.

None of them are going to be the top priority of their series. It could go a number of ways, because they're all pretty qualified. And therein, depending on the number of cuts, them being safe isn't something I agree with.

 

[Shroob]

By the time the next Smash comes out, we'll all be talking about Gen 6 remakes anyhow.



...........oh my god it's been 9 years almost since X and Y came out.

 

[chocolatejr9]

By the time the next Smash comes out, we'll all be talking about Gen 6 remakes anyhow.



...........oh my god it's been 9 years almost since X and Y came out.

We regret to inform you that C chocolatejr9 has sadly passed away. He turned to dust upon learning a game he played in high school is almost 10 years old.

 

[Arcanir]

Some good points, though I'll note that Incineroar may have also been fairly low priority given that it was added later in development, it was one of the last newcomers in base, and the dev team had to focus on making sure EiH was complete. And in the end, being lower-priority blatant advertising is still being blatant advertising. Also, Jigglypuff was probably even lower priority than Lucario, especially given its lack of involvement in SSE; I feel that the only way we would've gotten Jigglypuff without Lucario would've been if Lucario was decided so late that even really high priority wouldn't have gotten him finished (though I don't see a way to confirm this).

Diddy Kong I will respond to you in a separate post later.

I feel the difference here is that Incineroar was added late not because he was low priority, but because they didn't decide on who to fill the slot it occupied until that point. With the project plan we know that Sakurai sets aside slots until he can fit in a character for it as that happened for Greninja, and once he knows the character they put them into the game immediately with the time and resources they set aside. So it wasn't a case of other characters getting higher priority, but rather the structure of development being plotted in a way that allowed for a future character to be added in the slot they gave for it.

Another thing to note is that unlike Lucario, Incineroar is never noted to have been at risk of being cut. So Incineroar's situation was, at least as far as we're aware, in a better position in the roster and his development potentially went a lot smoother as they were able to get it done in time without any reported hiccups.

As for the second point, that's why I said maybe for Jigglypuff. One of Jigglypuff's big perks on top of being a veteran is that it can reuse assets from Kirby who'll always be a mainstay, which gives it a leg up over many other characters since it can be developed in a low priority environment and still get finished in a timely manner. So in a situation where Lucario didn't have enough time and resources to get done, Jigglypuff could use what's left to get finished in time similar to how the extra amount in Brawl's base game allowed it to get done ahead of Mewtwo. However, that is also dependent on how much time and resources were left as there could've been little left for both to not get developed, so that's why I only say it's a possibility that it could've played out that way.

By the time the next Smash comes out, we'll all be talking about Gen 6 remakes anyhow.



...........oh my god it's been 9 years almost since X and Y came out.

Depends on if the Gen 5 remakes are out by then. If they're out during Gen 9 then XY remakes will be the talk of the town, if they wait until Gen 10 then they'll be completely overshadowed by BW remake discourse similar to how DP overshadowed them during Gen 8's time.

 

[Shroob]

Someone brought up Genshin earlier?



Yeah, Genshin's ****ing massive now, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down.




But oh my god it's a game/series I do not like, and I'm normally fine to outright apathetic towards games like it.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Someone brought up Genshin earlier?



Yeah, Genshin's ****ing massive now, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down.




But oh my god it's a game/series I do not like, and I'm normally fine to outright apathetic towards games like it.

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[Perkilator]

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[dream1ng]

I'm aware Genshin has really caught on but I've never followed the game. Which is the character we'd get, if it got a fighter?

 

[chocolatejr9]

I'm aware Genshin has really caught on but I've never followed the game. Which is the character we'd get, if it got a fighter?

I keep seeing somebody named "Aether" suggested. I think they're the main player character?

 

[Ivander]

Someone brought up Genshin earlier?



Yeah, Genshin's ****ing massive now, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down.




But oh my god it's a game/series I do not like, and I'm normally fine to outright apathetic towards games like it.

I'm still feeling pretty apathetic to it. Although due to going onto the Fate/Grand Order reddit, I do hear about some of the things it ends up doing, like having a very lackluster 1st Anniversary, having just about all of it's female characters use the same model and face with very little modification besides the different hair, outfit, etc. Regardless, next Smash game, Genshin is probably going to be that game's Fortnite in terms of favouring just about everything else over it.

 

[Shroob]

I'm still feeling pretty apathetic to it. Although due to going onto the Fate/Grand Order reddit, I do hear about some of the things it ends up doing, like having a very lackluster 1st Anniversary, having just about all of it's female characters use the same model and face with very little modification besides the different hair, outfit, etc. Regardless, next Smash game, Genshin is probably going to be that game's Fortnite in terms of favouring just about everything else over it.

Genshin characters in art: Varied in appearance and bodyshapes.


Genshin characters in game: Literally the same 3 bodytypes but with different hair, clothing and accessories. ****, iirc, there was one character whose artwork gives her a sizeable badonkers, but she's basically flat as a board in-game since they re-use the same models.



It's just, frankly speaking, lazy.

 

[ahemtoday]

I'm aware Genshin has really caught on but I've never followed the game. Which is the character we'd get, if it got a fighter?

I keep seeing somebody named "Aether" suggested. I think they're the main player character?

Not that I really get it myself, but from what I gather the male protagonist is called Aether and the female protagonist is called Lumine. It seems like it's a Japanese Byleth situation where their names and genders are kind of the only difference.

The one I've moreso heard as the Smash pick (in my limited personal experience) is "Amber", who to my understanding is a party member you get guaranteed through the early part of the main story instead of through the gacha. Though when I phrase it like that, it doesn't seem like she'd get chosen over the main protag even if she might excite more people.

 

[Shroob]

Not that I really get it myself, but from what I gather the male protagonist is called Aether and the female protagonist is called Lumine. It seems like it's a Japanese Byleth situation where their names and genders are kind of the only difference.

The one I've moreso heard as the Smash pick (in my limited personal experience) is "Amber", who to my understanding is a party member you get guaranteed through the early part of the main story instead of through the gacha. Though when I phrase it like that, it doesn't seem like she'd get chosen over the main protag even if she might excite more people.

I'm not a Genshin player, but it's not different than a lot of gacha games in this regards.


Aether and Lumine are the male/female self-insert protagonist. They're who you play as depending on what gender you choose the MC to be.


Amber's the early game token freebie character games like this give you. Conversely, despite being popular, she's considered one of, if not, the worst character in the game in terms of gameplay(Wonder if her being free has anything to do with that, hmmmmm). Besides her being free, Amber's really popular from memes, since her major ability, is she tosses a large plush doll of herself that dances for a bit... then blows the **** up in a firey explosion.

 

[Quillion]

Y'know, there's the fact that Smash is very provincial when it comes to third-party characters, and the only western ones we have so far come from one company. It's a trend I want further mitigated.

But a Chinese character getting in is an interesting prospect.

 

[Ivander]

Not that I really get it myself, but from what I gather the male protagonist is called Aether and the female protagonist is called Lumine. It seems like it's a Japanese Byleth situation where their names and genders are kind of the only difference.

Aether and Lumine are the male/female self-insert protagonist. They're who you play as depending on what gender you choose the MC to be.

I think those are the default names in general, but they are revealed from being your sibling. If I'm remembering correctly, the gender you don't choose is your brother/sister in the game. So more like Pokemon Gen 3, 4 and 6 where the gender you don't choose is either your rival or helper, or in Gen 5's case, the character who joins you on the Battle Subway.

 

[Shroob]

Y'know, there's the fact that Smash is very provincial when it comes to third-party characters, and the only western ones we have so far come from one company. It's a trend I want further mitigated.

But a Chinese character getting in is an interesting prospect.

It's interesting, but the biggest roadblock is there just.... aren't a lot of characters from Chinese-developed games, and like, only counting officially sanctioned games, I'd wager 95% of said games are all phone games.



I'm always extremely hesitant if not outright resistant when it comes to gacha/phone games in Smash, simply due to their transient nature.


In ten years time, I'll still be able to play every game currently represented via a playable character in Ultimate assuming I have the hardware available.

I can't guarantee that a game like Genshin Impact's servers will still be up and running in that time.


Look at Dragalia Lost for example. That game's dying very, very soon, and once it's gone, outside of Youtube videos archiving things like the cutscenes and music, it's straight up gone for good, with no way to play it.


Likewise, look at something like, Angry Birds. It has physical games. If I really, really wanted to ever play it for some reason, I could, and I'm not at a loss for choice. I don't have to pray that the Angry Bird's servers don't up and die suddenly.

 

[osby]

Genshin characters in art: Varied in appearance and bodyshapes.


Genshin characters in game: Literally the same 3 bodytypes but with different hair, clothing and accessories. ****, iirc, there was one character whose artwork gives her a sizeable badonkers, but she's basically flat as a board in-game since they re-use the same models.



It's just, frankly speaking, lazy.

To be fair, Genshin needs to run on mobile devices which might be a reason why asset sharing is common.

 

[Shroob]

To be fair, Genshin needs to run on mobile devices which might be a reason why asset sharing is common.

Yeah, but it's really, really blatant about it. Everyone is just the same model but with different hair and clothes.


It just seems really... lazy to me tbh.

 

[Idon]

It's interesting, but the biggest roadblock is there just.... aren't a lot of characters from Chinese-developed games, and like, only counting officially sanctioned games, I'd wager 95% of said games are all phone games.



I'm always extremely hesitant if not outright resistant when it comes to gacha/phone games in Smash, simply due to their transient nature.


In ten years time, I'll still be able to play every game currently represented via a playable character in Ultimate assuming I have the hardware available.

I can't guarantee that a game like Genshin Impact's servers will still be up and running in that time.


Look at Dragalia Lost for example. That game's dying very, very soon, and once it's gone, outside of Youtube videos archiving things like the cutscenes and music, it's straight up gone for good, with no way to play it.


Likewise, look at something like, Angry Birds. It has physical games. If I really, really wanted to ever play it for some reason, I could, and I'm not at a loss for choice. I don't have to pray that the Angry Bird's servers don't up and die suddenly.

And that's where we have Dungeon Fighter Online, the highest grossing game of all time with 850 million users and 18 billion dollars in revenue.
A game that most people only know if they are/were into free to play PC MMOs or are into fighting games.

Fat chance of them ever making it into smash with how isolated its popularity is, but I wouldn't mind a character from that if it ever somehow manages to infect the rest of the world.

 

[Shroob]

And that's where we have Dungeon Fighter Online, the highest grossing game of all time with 850 million users and 18 billion dollars in revenue.
A game that most people only know if they are/were into free to play PC MMOs or are into fighting games.

Fat chance of them ever making it into smash with how isolated its popularity is, but I wouldn't mind a character from that if it ever somehow manages to infect the rest of the world.

Ngl I saw this trailer and thought I was watching Guilty Gear for a bit.