Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Shinuto]

The appropriate representation for Touhou is a Reimu Mii Gunner and some music tracks.

I say this idea of indie characters not being capable enough to be appropriate to deserve playable status is ridiculous given the merit and success indie titles have seen in recent years especially considering the larger amount of AAA game slop that has come out more and more. Indies are proof you don't need big money or studios to make a fantastic well received title that touches the hearts of millions of players. Indies have more than earned a spot on Smash's legendary roster.

 

[Gengar84]

I say this idea of indie characters not being capable enough to be appropriate to deserve playable status is ridiculous given the merit and success indie titles have seen in recent years especially considering the larger amount of AAA game slop that has come out more and more. Indies are proof you don't need big money or studios to make a fantastic well received title that touches the hearts of millions of players. Indies have more than earned a spot on Smash's legendary roster.

I never played a ton of indie games in the past but I’ve been playing more and more recently because most of the games from the big companies are dropping local multiplayer. Even historically multiplayer franchises like Tales of and Dynasty Warriors are becoming single player games. There are actually a lot of cool indie multiplayer games I’ve been enjoying. I’m open to seeing an indie character as a playable Smash character. It doesn’t really matter to me if they’re indie or not as long as I like the character and/or they have a fun moveset.

Here are a few games I really enjoyed that I think qualify as indie titles (obviously some can’t get in Smash due to being licensed properties):

River City Girls 1&2
Streets of Rage 4
TMNT: Shredder’s Revenge
TMNT: Splintered Fate
Nexomon Extinction
Coromon
Ruined King: A LoL Story
Sea of Stars
A bunch of Pokemon fan games
Huntdown
Brawlhala

I’m interested in trying out Contra: Operation Galuga, Hades, Fae Tactics, MMPR: Rita’s Rewind and Chained Echoes but haven’t had the chance yet. Neon Inferno looks like a lot of fun too and I’ll probably get that when it comes out.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Indies have more than earned a spot on Smash's legendary roster.

I'll consider which indie characters could become Fighters after we get even a single one.

 

[Gengar84]

I'll consider which indie characters could become Fighters after we get even a single one.

There’s always a first time for everything. A lot of people probably wrote off third party characters in general before Snake.

 

[NintenRob]

Watch us get both Skull Kid and Tingle on the same announcement trailer like this

There's something about Majora's Mask that brings out the absolute best fan projects

 

[Perkilator]

Watch us get both Skull Kid and Tingle on the same announcement trailer like this

Actually, that reminds me; what trailers can you see for your most wanted?

 

[RileyXY1]

There’s always a first time for everything. A lot of people probably wrote off third party characters in general before Snake.

And many others:

Before Ryu, people believed that third party companies can't have more than one rep.
Before Cloud, people believed that third party characters needed to have a significant connection to Nintendo.
Before Richter, people believed that third party franchises can't have more than one rep.
Before Piranha Plant, people believed that generic enemies couldn't get in.
Before Min Min, people believed that Spirits couldn't be promoted to fighters.
Before Sephiroth, people believed that third party franchises can't have more than one unique rep.
Before Pyra/Mythra, people believed that we would never again have a new transformation fighter.

 

[Gengar84]

And many others:

Before Ryu, people believed that third party companies can't have more than one rep.
Before Cloud, people believed that third party characters needed to have a significant connection to Nintendo.
Before Richter, people believed that third party franchises can't have more than one rep.
Before Piranha Plant, people believed that generic enemies couldn't get in.
Before Min Min, people believed that Spirits couldn't be promoted to fighters.
Before Sephiroth, people believed that third party franchises can't have more than one unique rep.
Before Pyra/Mythra, people believed that we would never again have a new transformation fighter.

Yup, that’s why I think it’s a good idea to stay open minded about Smash and not automatically write things off as if they’re never going to happen. Just because something hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it can’t in the future. If anything, I might be a little too open minded about Smash lol.

 

[Garteam]

I think the biggest challenge facing Indies is that they tend to be a little transient in terms of their relevancy and popularity, which is a big problem for a third party.

Third parties tend to be long-established names that have endured in the public consciousness for about 2 decades prior to being added. If you can only have a dozen or so characters from across the entirety of gaming that isn't Nintendo, you may as well make sure it's a character has proven to be remembered and influential. , , and are the exceptions, but Bayo is a honourary Nintendo franchise, Joker is the lead of the most popular entry from a 28 year-old series, and Minecraft is so massive that it already has a lot of legacy.

In contrast, Indie character tend to be one-offs rather than being from massive franchises, which causes them to kind of come and go. Super Meat Boy and Castle Crashers used to be the face of Indie games, but they're not nearly as popular as they are now.

You can even see this in Smash, to an extent. Sakurai made a big deal in one of his PotDs about an Indie character getting a trophy in Smash. That character was Bit.trip Runner, which isn't actually what would excite audiences in 2025 and beyond.

Shantae and Sans seem to be in the best spot in this regard, as Shantae has been receiving new entries for about 15 years now and Undertale is still remembered fondly 10 years after being released. However, even they aren't as massive as they were in the late 2010s, with games like Balatro and Hades now being seen as the face of Indie gaming.

 

[Gengar84]

I think the biggest challenge facing Indies is that they tend to be a little transient in terms of their relevancy and popularity, which is a big problem for a third party.

Third parties tend to be long-established names that have endured in the public consciousness for about 2 decades prior to being added. If you can only have a dozen or so characters from across the entirety of gaming that isn't Nintendo, you may as well make sure it's a character has proven to be remembered and influential. , , and are the exceptions, but Bayo is a honourary Nintendo franchise, Joker is the lead of the most popular entry from a 28 year-old series, and Minecraft is so massive that it already has a lot of legacy.

In contrast, Indie character tend to be one-offs rather than being from massive franchises, which causes them to kind of come and go. Super Meat Boy and Castle Crashers used to be the face of Indie games, but they're not nearly as popular as they are now.

You can even see this in Smash, to an extent. Sakurai made a big deal in one of his PotDs about an Indie character getting a trophy in Smash. That character was Bit.trip Runner, which isn't actually what would excite audiences in 2025 and beyond.

Shantae and Sans seem to be in the best spot in this regard, as Shantae has been receiving new entries for about 15 years now and Undertale is still remembered fondly 10 years after being released. However, even they aren't as massive as they were in the late 2010s, with games like Balatro and Hades now being seen as the face of Indie gaming.

Yeah that’s a good point. I do think it could be exciting to get a fresh indie character from a recently released game but most haven’t really had the time to prove they have the staying power of some of Smash’s third party icons. I think those types of characters could be great for a game but they can be lower priority for future games if they lose relevancy or not many people played them in Smash. Most of the indie games I’ve played probably have little chance for Smash but I’d be happy to see them.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

There’s always a first time for everything. A lot of people probably wrote off third party characters in general before Snake.

Basically the only rule that exists is that Smash can only have video game characters or ones adjacent to it. The exceptions are stuff being mentioned such as in Brawl’s Chronicle and Sora’s Keychain.

Video game adjacent includes stuff like accessories (EX: R.O.B), anime/animated stuff (EX: Advent Children) and etc.

I think that’s the only one mentioned by Sakurai.

 

[Gengar84]

Basically the only rule that exists is that Smash can only have video game characters or ones adjacent to it. The exceptions are stuff being mentioned such as in Brawl’s Chronicle and Sora’s Keychain.

Video game adjacent includes stuff like accessories (EX: R.O.B), anime/animated stuff (EX: Advent Children) and etc.

I think that’s the only one mentioned by Sakurai.

Yeah, I agree, and even that rule I wouldn’t put at 100% certainty that it will always hold forever. I don’t really expect Goku or Spider-Man any time soon but who knows what could change in the future?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the biggest challenge facing Indies is that they tend to be a little transient in terms of their relevancy and popularity, which is a big problem for a third party.

Third parties tend to be long-established names that have endured in the public consciousness for about 2 decades prior to being added. If you can only have a dozen or so characters from across the entirety of gaming that isn't Nintendo, you may as well make sure it's a character has proven to be remembered and influential. , , and are the exceptions, but Bayo is a honourary Nintendo franchise, Joker is the lead of the most popular entry from a 28 year-old series, and Minecraft is so massive that it already has a lot of legacy.

In contrast, Indie character tend to be one-offs rather than being from massive franchises, which causes them to kind of come and go. Super Meat Boy and Castle Crashers used to be the face of Indie games, but they're not nearly as popular as they are now.

You can even see this in Smash, to an extent. Sakurai made a big deal in one of his PotDs about an Indie character getting a trophy in Smash. That character was Bit.trip Runner, which isn't actually what would excite audiences in 2025 and beyond.

Shantae and Sans seem to be in the best spot in this regard, as Shantae has been receiving new entries for about 15 years now and Undertale is still remembered fondly 10 years after being released. However, even they aren't as massive as they were in the late 2010s, with games like Balatro and Hades now being seen as the face of Indie gaming.

Not that I think it would be selected for Smash, but I'd say Five Nights at Freddy's is also in this category. It's been active since 2014 (11 years), and while it's definitely showing growing pains, it seems to be a pretty successful multimedia franchise.

Due to the rise of stuff like Poppy Playtime and Lethal Company, I don't think it quite overshadows indie horror like it used to, but it is still one of, if not the most popular series in the scene.


Unrelated, but I find it funny that one of the standout mascot horror series is Garten of Banban, the popularity of which I can only describe as people collectively going "it's utter garbage, but I'm invested now" and continuing to watch this acid trip of a soap opera.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think the biggest challenge facing Indies is that they tend to be a little transient in terms of their relevancy and popularity, which is a big problem for a third party.

Third parties tend to be long-established names that have endured in the public consciousness for about 2 decades prior to being added. If you can only have a dozen or so characters from across the entirety of gaming that isn't Nintendo, you may as well make sure it's a character has proven to be remembered and influential. , , and are the exceptions, but Bayo is a honourary Nintendo franchise, Joker is the lead of the most popular entry from a 28 year-old series, and Minecraft is so massive that it already has a lot of legacy.

In contrast, Indie character tend to be one-offs rather than being from massive franchises, which causes them to kind of come and go. Super Meat Boy and Castle Crashers used to be the face of Indie games, but they're not nearly as popular as they are now.

You can even see this in Smash, to an extent. Sakurai made a big deal in one of his PotDs about an Indie character getting a trophy in Smash. That character was Bit.trip Runner, which isn't actually what would excite audiences in 2025 and beyond.

Shantae and Sans seem to be in the best spot in this regard, as Shantae has been receiving new entries for about 15 years now and Undertale is still remembered fondly 10 years after being released. However, even they aren't as massive as they were in the late 2010s, with games like Balatro and Hades now being seen as the face of Indie gaming.

This is pretty much the case. Third party additions typically tend to be based on legacy, which certainly explains some of his choices, such as specifically going for FF7 specifically to represent Final Fantasy out of all the games.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Speaking of anime adaptations of games i really wish this song would be added to the Megaman song list

A videogame remix of the Megaman anime opening

 

[Will]

I'll consider which indie characters could become Fighters after we get even a single one.

Erm, ackshually, was created by an ind-

 

[Thegameandwatch]

This is pretty much the case. Third party additions typically tend to be based on legacy, which certainly explains some of his choices, such as specifically going for FF7 specifically to represent Final Fantasy out of all the games.

The closest thing to an exception for example is probably Bayonetta. Maybe also Richter?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The closest thing to an exception for example is probably Bayonetta. Maybe also Richter?

Eh, Castlevania Symphony of the Night is a pretty impactful part of video game history, giving birth to the Metroidvania style of games, and Richter is playable in the game, and has the iconic "Die Monster! You don't belong in this world!" line.

 

[Dukefire]

I say this idea of indie characters not being capable enough to be appropriate to deserve playable status is ridiculous given the merit and success indie titles have seen in recent years especially considering the larger amount of AAA game slop that has come out more and more. Indies are proof you don't need big money or studios to make a fantastic well received title that touches the hearts of millions of players. Indies have more than earned a spot on Smash's legendary roster.

That is still the sterotype and fan rule Indie Characters face. Until ONE becomes a fighter, people disregard them as runner up.

That will change once indie character(s) join the fighter status.


Also, if you didn't know or not. Yacht Club Games is technically the younger brother of Wayforward. Some staff originate from WF before moving on with their own company.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Eh, Castlevania Symphony of the Night is a pretty impactful part of video game history, giving birth to the Metroidvania style of games, and Richter is playable in the game, and has the iconic "Die Monster! You don't belong in this world!" line.

Yeah but outside of the iconic line, people typically think of Alucard when thinking of Symphony so bringing Richter into question is still fair. Especially since his design in Smash is NOT from that game (though it weirdly is the design used for his SotN sprite lmao).

 

[Shinuto]

Speaking of anime adaptations of games i really wish this song would be added to the Megaman song list

A videogame remix of the Megaman anime opening

If we ain't getting no goat pokemon anime songs, stupid MegaMan crap better not be getting in before it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

There’s always a first time for everything.

Sure. But until it does, I'm just not going to worry about it. And I'm not going to put any stock in predicting it.

Just like how we COULD get a 4P Fighter. But until we do, I'm not going to worry about 4P characters.

 

[BonafideFella]

does the phrase fourth-party make much sense? toei is as third-party from nintendo as capcom , yk - the shorthand is vry funny

 

[Gengar84]

Sure. But until it does, I'm just not going to worry about it. And I'm not going to put any stock in predicting it.

Just like how we COULD get a 4P Fighter. But until we do, I'm not going to worry about 4P characters.

Fair enough, that makes sense. I just wouldn’t dismiss the idea entirely just because it hasn’t happened yet.

On another note, I just realized something. Even if Smash included Scorpion and Sub-Zero now, it wouldn’t be the first crossover between Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter anymore. Sub-Zero getting into Fortnite already did that. Another interesting note is that Fortnite decided to include Sub-Zero before Scorpion. I wonder if that has any Smash implications. I’ve always preferred Sub-Zero but they’d be easy enough semiclones that you could include both.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Characters from outside gaming-related media (**** the stupid "4th Party" label, it makes no goddamn sense) have been specifically said numerous times to not be making appearances. And as the content that came with Sora shows, that applies to even cameos.

There is absolutely nothing stated that indies cannot be fighters or must be relegated to alternative roles.

They are not one and the same.

does the phrase fourth-party make much sense? toei is as third-party from nintendo as capcom , yk - the shorthand is vry funny

It really doesn't. But the old Smash Crusade dev team thought it was "clever" and decided to refer to Goku in such a way along with other non-gaming IP additions like Anakin in very early roster drafts, so people just use it despite the illogical nature of it just because "herp one step further from characters from non-Nintendo game derp".

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On another note, I just realized something. Even if Smash included Scorpion and Sub-Zero now, it wouldn’t be the first crossover between Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter anymore. Sub-Zero getting into Fortnite already did that.

Yeah but they did it through skins. There's still a niche Smash can fill of Hadoken vs Spear or Ice Ball that Fortnite never could do.

I wonder if that has any Smash implications. I’ve always preferred Sub-Zero but they’d be easy enough semiclones that you could include both.

Gameplay shenanigans always feels like a driving force for Sakurai.

While it's easy to assume Scorpion due to a mix of being a favorite of Ed Boon, a sort of mascot for the series, being a relatively beginner-friendly pick like the pre-Kazuya FGC picks and even being the only MK character who can get away with a Fatality as a Final Smash, Sub-Zero's usage of ice is unlike any of the ice that's present in Smash, there's a lot of new shenanigans that can come out of it and he's just as big of a deal as Scorpion due to being one of the original ninjas alongside him.

And it'd feel wrong to introduce MK with anything but one of the klassic ninjas, to the point where even if you factor in all the ones that showed up in the original trilogy, it really feels like it's exclusively a fight between Sub-Zero and Scorpion over who could be the Smash pick... not like that'd ever happen but still, it's fun to speculate on it.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah but they did it through skins. There's still a niche Smash can fill of Hadoken vs Spear or Ice Ball that Fortnite never could do.


Gameplay shenanigans always feels like a driving force for Sakurai.

While it's easy to assume Scorpion due to a mix of being a favorite of Ed Boon, a sort of mascot for the series, being a relatively beginner-friendly pick like the pre-Kazuya FGC picks and even being the only MK character who can get away with a Fatality as a Final Smash, Sub-Zero's usage of ice is unlike any of the ice that's present in Smash, there's a lot of new shenanigans that can come out of it and he's just as big of a deal as Scorpion due to being one of the original ninjas alongside him.

And it'd feel wrong to introduce MK with anything but one of the klassic ninjas, to the point where even if you factor in all the ones that showed up in the original trilogy, it really feels like it's exclusively a fight between Sub-Zero and Scorpion over who could be the Smash pick... not like that'd ever happen but still, it's fun to speculate on it.

Yeah, I just love ice powers and Sub-Zero was always fun to use. Blue is also my favorite color and he was even voiced by one of my favorite actors at one point in Steve Blum. Scorpion is cool too but I’ll always be a Sub-Zero guy.

As far as MK never happening in Smash, that’s certainly possible but I wouldn’t rule it out. I feel like the series is popular enough globally that it might be enough to overcome the lack of relevance in Japan. The characters have been successfully toned down multiple times so that shouldn’t be an issue either. It’s not like Smash hasn’t already done something similar with characters like Bayonetta. If Nintendo really had something against the series, I don’t think they’d allow their games on their platforms. The most recent titles have all been available on Switch.

 

[Perkilator]

I just thought of something: Sm4sh ended with 58 fighters after DLC, and Ultimate launched with 76 fighters (including Echoes) before DLC. Therefore, I think a reasonable balance for the next game would be to launch with about 67 fighters.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I just thought of something: Sm4sh ended with 58 fighters after DLC, and Ultimate launched with 76 fighters (including Echoes) before DLC. Therefore, I think a reasonable balance for the next game would be to launch with about 67 fighters.

Barring about 12-15 slots for newcomers, you're basically asking for something around the levels of base game Smash 4 in terms of veteran count, which isn't quite half of Ultimate's roster being cut but it's damn near close to that.

I doubt things will get that dire cuts-wise myself.

 

[Gengar84]

I just thought of something: Sm4sh ended with 58 fighters after DLC, and Ultimate launched with 76 fighters (including Echoes) before DLC. Therefore, I think a reasonable balance for the next game would be to launch with about 67 fighters.

While I’d ideally like more, I think 67 characters seems reasonable, especially with an extended DLC cycle. Ideally, I’d love the roster to reach 100 characters by the end of the Switch 2’s life. That would be a really cool achievement.

 

[Will]

Nintendo went out of their way to purchase the developer behind the Switch ports of Warner Bros games such as Mortal Kombat 11/Mortal Kombat 1 and Hogwarts Legacy. Mortal Kombat sells well on the Switch, and Nintendo (of America) currently has a strong relationship with Warner Bros Interactive.

I know it looks worse, graphically, than the other console versions, and yet people are still buying them. The market is there.

Shiver is also the current Scribblenauts developer for the Maxwell fans out there.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nintendo went out of their way to purchase the developer behind the Switch ports of Warner Bros games such as Mortal Kombat 11/Mortal Kombat 1 and Hogwarts LegacyMortal Kombat sells well on the Switch, and Nintendo (of America) currently has a strong relationship with Warner Bros Interactive.

With that said... huh, didn't know that. It's pretty neat.

 

[Will]

With that said... huh, didn't know that. It's pretty neat.

It happened 10 months ago.

It’s not like they have any work going on right now, unless they plan on making a Suicide Squad deluxe for Switch 2.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It happened 10 months ago.

It’s not like they have any work going on right now, unless they plan on making a Suicide Squad deluxe for Switch 2.

It shows there's a possibility of Mortal Kombat being in the talks fo- OH GODDAMMIT YOU'RE GIVING ME HOPE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Will]

It shows there's a possibility of Mortal Kombat being in the talks fo- OH GODDAMMIT YOU'RE GIVING ME HOPE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

View attachment 400005

OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM OPTIMISM

bottom text of panic

 

[chocolatejr9]

bottom text of panic

Would you call this a... Fatality?

Yes, I see the door to my left.

 

[Gengar84]

Lol, I was just saying I wouldn’t rule MK out before I knew this. I feel like this only helps and a MK character has a real shot. Still nowhere near a sure thing but I think it could happen.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Would you call this a... Fatality?

Yes, I see the door to my left.

Flawless Victory

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It shows there's a possibility of Mortal Kombat being in the talks fo- OH GODDAMMIT YOU'RE GIVING ME HOPE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Remember that MK is still barred from sale in Japan because NRS refuses to do toned down versions to meet even a Z rating for CERO.

There. Keeping you grounded in reality. :V