Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

Yeah, that’s possible. I always viewed the series as something closer to a Grand Theft Auto. I think the realistic graphics and modern setting gave me a false first impression of the franchise. I played through the prologue of Like a Dragon and nothing so far deviated from those impressions. Clearly I was too quick to judge if there are characters that can create shadow clones and summon sharks. Goes to show that you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover. To be clear, I was never trying to make the argument that Yakuza shouldn’t get into Smash, just that characters from a more realistic setting would feel kind of out of place for me. They could always play off that for part of the appeal for those kinds of characters though. Even if it doesn’t really apply to Yakuza, just seeing a normal guy react to all the crazy stuff in Smash could be funny.

I see what you're saying. Overall, the Yakuza series, with its more realistic worlds and settings, doesn't look like anything Nintendo would make, so it would stand out for obvious reasons. But like you said, characters like that among the more colorfuly, over-the-top characters is not actually a bad thing. In fact, we kind of seen this already with Drake in PlayStation All-Stars and Snake in Smash to a certain extent. This wouldn't be anything new.

 

[Gengar84]

I see what you're saying. Overall, the Yakuza series, with its more realistic worlds and settings, doesn't look like anything Nintendo would make, so it would stand out for obvious reasons. But like you said, characters like that among the more colorfuly, over-the-top characters is not actually a bad thing. In fact, we kind of seen this already with Drake in PlayStation All-Stars and Snake in Smash to a certain extent. This wouldn't be anything new.

I think that’s one reason I prefer the Battletoads to more grounded Beat ‘em Up characters for Smash. I feel like their wacky, exaggerated animations and designs would really stand out where most other characters from the genre are more standard brawlers or martial artists that feel closer to traditional fighting game characters. Nothing really wrong with either approach, I just find one more interesting personally. Smash could easily make any of those characters work and be fun to play so it’s more a personal preference thing. I tend to prefer more fantasy characters and worlds to ones that are more grounded and set in our world. There’s plenty of room for both in Smash.

 

[PlasmaDam]

I'm surprised people don't talk about double dragon or Kunio when it comes to beat em up characters

 

[Perkilator]

With the recent zeitgeist Ninja Gaiden’s been having (between a new 2D and 3D game coming out this year and the 2 Black remake being shadowdropped earlier this year), I think now’s as good a time as ever for Ryu Hayabusa to join Smash as a newcomer.

 

[Louie G.]

I think there’s a degree where “reps” matter but at the end of the day the character still needs to stand on their own. And characters can be added in spite of their series’ relative size or popularity if that value is transcendent. But the answer is typically somewhere in the middle, if not simply because the most fruitful and relevant IPs offer the most new material on a game to game basis.

I don’t think Sakurai will pencil in “Mario rep” or “Splatoon rep” deliberately. But I feel like he’s entering this next game knowing he will be giving these series something, on principle. Mario characters are always a good call for pleasing a wide audience with the most recognizable characters available, a series like Splatoon has simply grown too much to ignore. So I do think there’s more credibility to this outside of just “new Pokemon” etc.

I recall he has also suggested he does keep series balance in mind, and perhaps that just means something as obvious as not giving Kirby 10 new characters. But all the same I think there’s a mentality of keeping big series well fed and smaller series “humbled” so to speak. Nothing as arbitrary as “Donkey Kong needs its fourth rep!” but we should certainly be eyeing the likes of Animal Crossing or Splatoon as series playing catch-up as some of Nintendo’s heaviest hitters. Someone like Tom Nook or Squid Sisters pull more than enough weight as standalone characters but I digress.

…I guess my point is that there’s some nuance to it. The project plan will not say “Waluigi is the ‘Mario rep’ for this game” but there tends to be one every time, and I’m sure that’s intentional. Instead the doc will say something like “Waluigi’s theme is ‘Cheater’” to emphasize his distinct character traits. To Garteam’s point. But I think there’s some truth to both angles.

 

[Gengar84]

With the recent zeitgeist Ninja Gaiden’s been having (between a new 2D and 3D game coming out this year and the 2 Black remake being shadowdropped earlier this year), I think now’s as good a time as ever for Ryu Hayabusa to join Smash as a newcomer.

Agreed. Though if Sakurai’s project is in fact Smash, Ninja Gaiden’s recent resugence would have come too late to impact the base game. I think Hyabusa was already a strong contender before that so he could very well still make it in the starting roster for that reason. If not, his case for DLC is even stronger now.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is there any character you'd like to see in the game, but not necessarily in a playable capacity? Be it as a Mii Costume or Assist Trophy.

Lots.

Assist Trophies
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Protoman [Mega Man]
Majima [Like a Dragon]
Pyramid Head [Silent Hill]
Cactuar or Tomberry [Final Fantasy]
Slimes/King Slime [Dragon Quest]
Rygar [Rygar]
Abobo [Double Dragon]
Vic Viper [Gradius]
Mike Jones [Star Tropics]
Sophia 3rd [Blaster Master]
Purple Tentacle [Maniac Mansion]

Mii Costumes
Swordfighter:
Frog [Chrono Trigger]
Randi [Secret of Mana]
Kuros [Wizards & Warriors]

Brawler:
Billy Lee/Jimmy Lee [Double Dragon]
Viewtiful Joe [Viewtiful Joe]
Robo [Chrono Trigger]

Gunner:
Game Master [Captain N]
Quote [Cave Story]
Jason [Blaster Master]

Mage:
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Kamek [Super Mario Bros.]
FF Black Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
FF White Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
Reimu [Touhou]
Magus [Chrono Trigger]

I'm surprised people don't talk about double dragon or Kunio when it comes to beat em up characters

I DO IT ALL THE TIME!!

 

[Gengar84]

Beyond the Battletoads, I think my most wanted Beat ‘em Up character is Misako from River City Girls. My brother, friend, and I had an absolute blast playing those games and Misako was my favorite character. I thought the humor in the game was actually pretty funny and the soundtrack was awesome. I know she’s a long shot at best because they’d likely go with Kunio since he’s the face of the mainline series but I’d love to see Misako.

These songs are just so catchy that I can listen to them on loop over and over. There’s a bunch more songs from the series that I really like too.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

 

[The Prankster 16]

Is there any character you'd like to see in the game, but not necessarily in a playable capacity? Be it as a Mii Costume or Assist Trophy.

I'd love to see a Viewtiful Joe Mii Costume, I think his proportions are perfect for it.

Although I don't really want him as a fighter, Sans would be really cool to see an upgrade from Mii Costume to Assist Trophy. Maybe that could also mean more UT/DR music in Smash?

 

[fogbadge]

I'm surprised people don't talk about double dragon or Kunio when it comes to beat em up characters

there are users on who always bring them up

 

[SPEN18]

Re surprise reps

Remember DH was a surprise character that actually was a somewhat, at least fringely speculated character prior to their reveal. He had fans and haters alike. So I feel like the bar to be "surprising" is not necessarily astronomically high (esp. now that we kind of know to expect the unexpected lol), I mean in DH's case it was pretty much just being an inactive series and a character where the moveset concept and direction was nonobvious. But it just differs depending on what Sakurai is looking for and/or has an idea for at that time. All I'm saying is the next surprise could be something like PP that absolutely no one was hitting on, or it could be something more like DH, a character viewed as unlikely but that still has some kind of spec scene going for them.

 

[Shinuto]

Re surprise reps

Remember DH was a surprise character that actually was a somewhat, at least fringely speculated character prior to their reveal. He had fans and haters alike. So I feel like the bar to be "surprising" is not necessarily astronomically high (esp. now that we kind of know to expect the unexpected lol), I mean in DH's case it was pretty much just being an inactive series and a character where the moveset concept and direction was nonobvious. But it just differs depending on what Sakurai is looking for and/or has an idea for at that time. All I'm saying is the next surprise could be something like PP that absolutely no one was hitting on, or it could be something more like DH, a character viewed as unlikely but that still has some kind of spec scene going for them.

I say...a 3rd party surprise pick!

 

[Gengar84]

I say...a 3rd party surprise pick!

That’s the best hope I have of seeing any of my most wanted so I say go for it!

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honestly, despite how much she's kinda thrown around in speculation in this thread, I could genuinely see someone like Ayumi being the designated "surprise" pick.

I mean a visual novel character from a series of detective/thriller/mystery stories from like 1988 essentially would be surprising to most people, right? The only reason I can think of that she might not be given that angle is because the remakes and Emio are pretty recent all things considered lol

 

[Louie G.]

I feel like a third party surprise is somewhat hard to garner unless it’s something ridiculous like Tetris Block or Daytona car. Which sure, we could do something like that, but I think there’s some charm in keeping this kind of thing for Nintendo’s own oddities.

Personally I think something like Excitebiker works, despite having a fair bit of notoriety and discussion. My reasoning is that Excitebike doesn’t really have any “characters” perse, just an unnamed guy on a bike duplicated a dozen times over, and the concept of making a moveset around someone on a bike is super abstract and unexpected to the average person. Similarly to Duck Hunt we’re just the kind of people crazy enough to humor it, because we talk about everything and anything. But I understand the grey area in determining if a choice like this is closer to Ice Climbers or Duck Hunt.

 

[Gengar84]

I guess it depends on how you classify a surprise character. Would an otherwise iconic character that’s never brought up in Smash discussion be considered a surprise character or does it have to be something completely obscure or unconventional? Like, would Sarah Kerrigan or Illidan Stormrage be considered surprise characters? Did you consider Joker to be a surprise character in Ultimate?

 

[Louie G.]

Like, would Sarah Kerrigan or Illidan Stormrage be considered surprise characters? Did you consider Joker to be a surprise character in Ultimate?

No. Surprise character is a literal classification from Sakurai for characters like Mr. Game & Watch, ROB, Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant. It’s a deliberate character role put aside each game, typically for characters who are more unexpected to fill fighter roles. He’s expressed it directly in reference to the latter two.

The characters you mentioned are no more “surprise” than Joker, Terry or Sephiroth. Characters can still be surprising and not be surprise characters through intent. But when we say surprise character in this context it has a very well defined meaning already.

 

[Gengar84]

No. Surprise character is a literal classification from Sakurai for characters like Mr. Game & Watch, ROB, Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant. It’s a deliberate character role put aside each game, typically for characters who are more unexpected to fill fighter roles. He’s expressed it directly in reference to the latter two.

The characters you mentioned are no more “surprise” than Joker, Terry or Sephiroth. Characters can still be surprising and not be surprise characters through intent. But when we say surprise character in this context it has a very well defined meaning already.

Ah, that’s confusing terminology on Sakurai’s part since a surprise character can mean different things. They probably should have went with a different word. So maybe something like Rintaro Okabe or Kurisu Makise from Steins;Gate would be closer since neither are really fighters. Phoenix Wright probably would have been before MvC. In that case, would Villager and Isabelle count as surprise fighters too since neither fights in their home series?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Ah, that’s confusing terminology on Sakurai’s part since a surprise character can mean different things. They probably should have went with a different word. So maybe something like Rintaro Okabe or Kurisu Makise from Steins;Gate would be closer since neither are really fighters. Phoenix Wright probably would have been before MvC. In that case, would Villager and Isabelle count as surprise fighters too since neither fights in their home series?

No, like Duck Hunt in Sakurai's project plan literally has the sentence "They will be this game's surprise character." in it lol

It's not determined by if a character is outright a fighter or not and tends to coincide with the "retro" character distinction aside from Piranha Plant, but since it's a decision made at Sakurai's discretion we don't really know who would qualify, though most of them have been older characters.

Realistically we can't even really say they have to be inactive either since Game & Watch Gallery 4 was in 1999 and ROB was in Mario Kart DS in 2005, right as project plans were happening lol

 

[Gengar84]

No, like Duck Hunt in Sakurai's project plan literally has the sentence "They will be this game's surprise character." in it lol

It's not determined by if a character is outright a fighter or not and tends to coincide with the "retro" character distinction aside from Piranha Plant, but since it's a decision made at Sakurai's discretion we don't really know who would qualify, though most of them have been older characters.

Realistically we can't even really say they have to be inactive either since Game & Watch Gallery 4 was in 1999 and ROB was in Mario Kart DS in 2005, right as project plans were happening lol

So it’s more or less completely arbitrary and it’s whatever Sakurai says it is? That seems pretty impossible to predict if that’s the case. If they’re mostly retro characters, they should have went with that instead of surprise character. I’m at a loss lol.

 

[Perkilator]

Here are some color ideas I cooked up for Ryu Hayabusa:

 

[Gengar84]

Here are some color ideas I cooked up for Ryu Hayabusa:
View attachment 399806

Looks cool to me. I Hope they give us that big a range. I’m a bit worried it’s going to be closer to Sephiroth’s color alts with minimal changes. I say that because they barely let you change any of his colors in Warriors Orochi. Fingers crossed we get something like this.

 

[Nickthebrick1]

Hey guys, maybe we should keep track of the trademark. I believe a year before Ultimate was announced the Super Smash Bros trademark was renewed. I also heard there's going to be huge switch 2 direct somewhere this April. Thoughts?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So it’s more or less completely arbitrary and it’s whatever Sakurai says it is? That seems pretty impossible to predict if that’s the case. If they’re mostly retro characters, they should have went with that instead of surprise character. I’m at a loss lol.

Yeah, that's why we try to predict it but outside of edge cases like Arcanir being a long running Duck Hunt Dog supporter in the Smash 4 spec days, we're usually wrong lmao

 

[Louie G.]

So it’s more or less completely arbitrary and it’s whatever Sakurai says it is? That seems pretty impossible to predict if that’s the case. If they’re mostly retro characters, they should have went with that instead of surprise character. I’m at a loss lol.

I mean, I don’t think they needed to have “went” with anything, this is just an internal label that Sakurai puts aside a character for every game. As long as it makes sense to him that’s all that matters. He didn’t intend anyone to think about it this hard really, lol. We’re just nuts.

It’s not like Plant is a retro character either, so that wouldn’t have worked / is not his intent.

 

[Gengar84]

I mean, I don’t think they needed to have “went” with anything, this is just an internal label that Sakurai puts aside a character for every game. As long as it makes sense to him that’s all that matters. He didn’t intend anyone to think about it this hard really, lol. We’re just nuts.

It’s not like Plant is a retro character either, so that wouldn’t have worked / is not his intent.

Lol fair enough. I don’t think it’s worth thinking too much about something with no real criteria other than what Sakurai happens to be thinking at the moment but it’s something to talk about at least. I can’t make any predictions because I don’t really have any way of reading Sakurai’s mind and I don’t have any solid limitations to narrow things down at all.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Retro inclusions where common, but wasn't it only in Melee where they outrightly told they where looking for such an inclusion with Ice Climbers and Mr.Game and Watch? I still think those choices are... curious. Especially considering what else it was favored above at that exact given time.

Pit was also a popular request but most likely very much on the developers minds back in Melee. Just check the Pit Melee trophy.

They likely wanted to include him but couldn't make the flying part work. That's my take.

Before Brawl was even confirmed, Pit was expected by everyone. Pit, Wario, Diddy, Meta Knight and King Dedede. That where the most safest bets to basically everyone.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

It is a bit hard to distinguish between an odd character pick, and a 'surprise' character choice. I guess the difference being one choice is made in spite of anything holding a character back, whereas the other is made specifically because you wouldn't have otherwise expected the character.

It makes sense then these have often turned out be more abstract and often times retro fighters, with the exception of a more generic enemy like Plant. I used to be a big mach rider supporter, but honestly if there were to be another surprise character added, I guess my want is that it be genuinely surprising.

 

[Louie G.]

Retro inclusions where common, but wasn't it only in Melee where they outrightly told they where looking for such an inclusion with Ice Climbers and Mr.Game and Watch? I still think those choices are... curious. Especially considering what else it was favored above at that exact given time.

Are they? I feel like Ice Climbers makes sense because Sakurai came up with the duo mechanic, and Mr. Game & Watch is celebrating some of Nintendo’s first steps into the gaming market. He’s also, presumably, a very easy character to develop on account of his limited animation. Nothing all that weird here.

Not saying Pit wasn’t in the cards, I imagine he could have been, although I don’t think we can garner that just off the obscurity of the other two choices. Like yeah Ice Climbers are weird but I’m pretty sure the equally, perhaps more, obscure Bubbles Clu Clu Land was almost added instead lol.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Just give us Takamaru already. I mean, what's even the deal not having him?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Just give us Takamaru already. I mean, what's even the deal not having him?

Because he's from a 40-year-old nothing game that nobody would even remember if he didn't keep showing up in Smash as an AT?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Just give us Takamaru already. I mean, what's even the deal not having him?

It's actually very weird not to include him when Nintendo treats him as an important part of their history

 

[Gengar84]

Because he's from a 40-year-old nothing game that nobody would even remember if he didn't keep showing up in Smash as an AT?

Yeah but did you consider the fact that he’s a samurai and samurai are cool?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Are they? I feel like Ice Climbers makes sense because Sakurai came up with the duo mechanic, and Mr. Game & Watch is celebrating some of Nintendo’s first steps into the gaming market. He’s also, presumably, a very easy character to develop on account of his limited animation. Nothing all that weird here.

Not saying Pit wasn’t in the cards, I imagine he could have been, although I don’t think we can garner that just off the obscurity of the other two choices. Like yeah Ice Climbers are weird but I’m pretty sure the equally, perhaps more, obscure Bubbles Clu Clu Land was almost added instead lol.

Yeah I think Sakurai specifically mentioned Balloon Fighter, Excitebiker, Bubbles, and Urban Champion were options before the Ice Climbers' unique duo setup was really looked into, having been based on Ice Climber's simultaneous co-op I believe.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah but did you consider the fact that he’s a samurai and samurai are cool?

I did. But then a remembered that there's, like, dozens of cooler samurai in video games.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Just give us Takamaru already. I mean, what's even the deal not having him?

I mean Sakurai told us the deal in Smash 4, bro just has basically no Western presence at all, and a Nintendo Land attraction, a 3DS Virtual Console release, an Assist Trophy, and availability on NSO don't really change that lol

Like Sakurai has said before that Lucas wouldn't even be in the game if he knew Mother 3 wasn't coming out in the West, so Takamaru is in a real rough spot with that.

 

[Laniv]

I think Takamaru simply got outprioritized by Everyone is Here and the likes of Ridley, K. Rool, and Inkling. I'm willing to bet the same thing happened with Isaac.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think Takamaru simply got outprioritized by Everyone is Here and the likes of Ridley, K. Rool, and Inkling. I'm willing to bet the same thing happened with Isaac.

I mean I could see this maaaaybe happening with Isaac (though even though I think he did well on the Ballot and that's why Golden Sun got all that stuff, I don't know that Ultimate was ever really in the cards for him with how limited the newcomers would've been from the start), but Takamaru was an Assist Trophy in Smash 4 with basically no presence in one of Smash's major markets at all outside of essentially a cameo in Nintendo Land (I don't think he even showed up, it was just labeled a Murasame Castle thing) and a 3DS VC release in 2014.

Essentially if we're thinking Waluigi may have been brought down by being an Assist Trophy, I can only imagine how being an Assist Trophy AND basically being nonexistent in the West would've affected Takamaru on the Ballot. It'd be like using your Ballot vote to vote for Prince Sable, but a little less so.

 

[Perkilator]

I think Takamaru simply got outprioritized by Everyone is Here and the likes of Ridley, K. Rool, and Inkling. I'm willing to bet the same thing happened with Isaac.

That’s basically the reason why I want them both (along with Waluigi) to be released from their AT prisons and join the battle next game.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The issue with a third party "surprise" pick is that fairly or unfairly characters from non-Nintendo companies are seen as a very precious resource that would be viewed as going somewhat to waste via a pick done just to swerve fans. I mean thanks to Square Enix owning Taito and a certain SNES release, Sonic Blast Man could be a hypothetical SE fighter for Smash. As much as a novelty as that would be, given the vast amounts of memorable casts the company owns, what would be gained by such a pick would likely be outweighed (at least to the major audience) by what was considered lost by not picking someone else.

It's a bit easier to do with first party WTF picks both because many of the Nintendo heavy hitters are already in, and even those on the bubble are still in a recurring position to get another chance. I would have traded Plant for numerous other first party selections, but even I wasn't really put off by their inclusion as my missing favorites I believe will get their opportunity again in the future. Third party equivalents have much less security in that regard.