Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

I wouldn't like to see different characters being in one character slot, but I'd be in favor of giving established characters different normalsets based on different weapons. Heck, this could even be combined with the idea that customs should come back but with each custom being entirely different moves rather than slapdash variants of existing moves (an idea @Jotari has been very vocal about wanting).

That said, I stand by my statement that not every character should be given equal amounts of custom specials or normalsets.

That’s also a really cool idea, if completely different. I could see myself enjoying something like that. The main reason I proposed my suggestion is because I’m a big fan of a lot of the side characters in Fire Emblem and this would be a way for a lot of them to get representation in Smash that otherwise would have never made it in. So for me, it’s more about the characters themselves than the movesets but I do still think your idea is really interesting and could be fun as well.

Let me ask you, are you also not a fan of the Koopalings and Alph being represented the way they are in Smash? That’s perfectly understandable if you aren’t but I’m happy to see anything that gives me the chance to play as characters I like. I’ve always thought the Koopalings were cool but never liked Bowser Jr. so their inclusion as alts made me actually care about the character. That meant, as a sacrifice, they had to lose their unique skills and battle in Bowser Jr.’s clown car (which they never used) but I was fine with that as long as I got to play as them in some way.

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

A tiny bit off topic, but about how much money do you think it would cost to get every 3rd party playable character (not counting Mii costumes, as those pay for themselves eventually) in Ultimate to return in the next Smash game?

I was just daydreaming about what I'd do if I won the lottery, outside of helping people of course, and the thought crossed my mind of possibly helping Nintendo get those characters to return in the next Smash game, albeit with the cost that I get to choose at least 3 1st party characters to join, and maybe giving an honest attempt at negotiating a 3rd party character of my choice to join (that I might have to also pay for if I still had money for that).

 

[Wonder Smash]

A tiny bit off topic, but about how much money do you think it would cost to get every 3rd party playable character (not counting Mii costumes, as those pay for themselves eventually) in Ultimate to return in the next Smash game?

I was just daydreaming about what I'd do if I won the lottery, outside of helping people of course, and the thought crossed my mind of possibly helping Nintendo get those characters to return in the next Smash game, albeit with the cost that I get to choose at least 3 1st party characters to join, and maybe giving an honest attempt at negotiating a 3rd party character of my choice to join (that I might have to also pay for if I still had money for that).

I have no idea but I do think that negotiations for 3rd party characters in this game could be much easier the next time.

 

[Quillion]

That’s also a really cool idea, if completely different. I could see myself enjoying something like that. The main reason I proposed my suggestion is because I’m a big fan of a lot of the side characters in Fire Emblem and this would be a way for a lot of them to get representation in Smash that otherwise would have never made it in. So for me, it’s more about the characters themselves than the movesets but I do still think your idea is really interesting and could be fun as well.

Let me ask you, are you also not a fan of the Koopalings and Alph being represented the way they are in Smash? That’s perfectly understandable if you aren’t but I’m happy to see anything that gives me the chance to play as characters I like. I’ve always thought the Koopalings were cool but never liked Bowser Jr. so their inclusion as alts made me actually care about the character. That meant, as a sacrifice, they had to lose their unique skills and battle in Bowser Jr.’s clown car (which they never used) but I was fine with that as long as I got to play as them in some way.

I'd be in favor of Jr. getting 9 palette swaps while keeping the Koopalings as alts. Olimar should keep Alph as an alt and add Louie, President, Brittany, and Charlie as alts.

 

[Gengar84]

I'd be in favor of Jr. getting 9 palette swaps while keeping the Koopalings as alts. Olimar should keep Alph as an alt and add Louie, President, Brittany, and Charlie as alts.

Yeah, that’s a good idea. I’m personally in favor of more Bowser Jr. or Hero style characters wherever they make sense. Its probably a bit late at this point without a series reboot, but if there was one, I could potentially see this idea working for the aforementioned Fire Emblen characters along with the Star Fox crew and F-Zero racers since they all have similar gameplay between units in their home me series with a ton of potential characters for representation.

 

[Quillion]

Yeah, that’s a good idea. I’m personally in favor of more Bowser Jr. or Hero style characters wherever they make sense. Its probably a bit late at this point without a series reboot, but if there was one, I could potentially see this idea working for the aforementioned Fire Emblen characters along with the Star Fox crew and F-Zero racers since they all have similar gameplay between units in their home me series with a ton of potential characters for representation.

I wouldn't go that far. The Star Fox characters play very differently within having variants of the same specialset. Lucina might work as an alt for Marth I guess, but not the other Marth derivatives.

 

[Gengar84]

I wouldn't go that far. The Star Fox characters play very differently within having variants of the same specialset. Lucina might work as an alt for Marth I guess, but not the other Marth derivatives.

I was talking about in Star Fox itself, not in Smash. My only experience is with Star Fox 64 though so I’m not sure what has changed since then. My argument is basically ignoring their current portrayals in Smash and only focusing on how they play in their home series, hence requiring a complete Smash reboot. Marth and Fox may not even have remotely the same moveset they do now if the series did get a hard reboot. Basically, what I’m saying is that I’m going in pretending that Smash didn’t already exist and creating it from scratch so what exists now isn’t necessarily relevant.

 

[Quillion]

I was talking about in Star Fox itself, not in Smash. My only experience is with Star Fox 64 though so I’m not sure what has changed since then. My argument is basically ignoring their current portrayals in Smash and only focusing on how they play in their home series, hence requiring a complete Smash reboot. Marth and Fox may not even have remotely the same moveset they do now if the series did get a hard reboot. Basically, what I’m saying is that I’m going in pretending that Smash didn’t already exist and creating it from scratch so what exists now isn’t necessarily relevant.

Honestly, I fail to see how the 64/Melee veterans would be all that different or need to be different if there was this hypothetical reboot

 

[Gengar84]

Honestly, I fail to see how the 64/Melee veterans would be all that different or need to be different if there was this hypothetical reboot

They wouldn’t necessarily all be different but I’m pretty sure Samus, Ganondorf, and Donkey Kong would get a fair amount of changes. Marth and Fox wouldn’t even necessarily exist as characters in this hypothetical situation and would be replaced by “sword Hero” and “Star Fox crew” who would still likely share a lot of moves with the old Marth and Fox since they would still be the primary costumes.

 

[HyperSomari64]

New Title Idea: Super Smash Bros Mark 6 (Mark 7 if you cound Smash 4 as separated games)
Based on this naming convention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_(designation)

NOTE: IDK if when the name is the real one, my only wishes are that the following game doesn't have weird stuff like Super Smash Bros. Dreamcast or Super Smash Bros. Producing Perfection.

 

[Yamat08]

Honestly, I just like the conventions that Smash already has set up and wouldn't be too fond of them changing too drastically. Not that I'd be viciously opposed to change, but given the choice, I'd prefer to keep the characters and the movesets that we have, and I doubt a lot of the Smash fanbase feels all that differently. I mean, if you think about it, this attachment to familiarity is why Everyone Is Here was such a major success (hell, the fondness for legacy game characters is pretty much the basis for Smash Bros. in the first place). And while some characters' movesets might seem outdated, if you change them up just to represent elements from the latest entry (and only the latest entry)...... well, you end up with something like FLUDD. And yes, this also means that I'd prefer to keep Echo Fighters and the like as their own seperate entries on the character select screen (though I would welcome subtle attempts to declone them over time, just as what happened with the Melee clones).

That’s also a really cool idea, if completely different. I could see myself enjoying something like that. The main reason I proposed my suggestion is because I’m a big fan of a lot of the side characters in Fire Emblem and this would be a way for a lot of them to get representation in Smash that otherwise would have never made it in. So for me, it’s more about the characters themselves than the movesets but I do still think your idea is really interesting and could be fun as well.

I do agree that Fire Emblem has a massive cast of characters that's mostly going to waste in Smash. However, rather than a ton of alts, I've always been partial to the idea of making the Breidablik (summoning gun from Fire Emblem Heroes) a Pokeball-like item.

Let me ask you, are you also not a fan of the Koopalings and Alph being represented the way they are in Smash? That’s perfectly understandable if you aren’t but I’m happy to see anything that gives me the chance to play as characters I like. I’ve always thought the Koopalings were cool but never liked Bowser Jr. so their inclusion as alts made me actually care about the character. That meant, as a sacrifice, they had to lose their unique skills and battle in Bowser Jr.’s clown car (which they never used) but I was fine with that as long as I got to play as them in some way.

Pretty much exactly how I felt about Jr. and the Koopalings. The Clown Car was a decent compromise for letting us play as what are, in my opinion, the superior characters.

 

[Ivander]

I'm pretty sure that if Sakurai/Nintendo can somehow make Minecraft and Steve work in Smash that Sakurai/Nintendo could very well have no issue doing a FPS character.

(also, if Nintendo wants to include a samurai-ninja fusion, Takamaru from the Mysterious Murasame Castle is right there)

If we look at Nintendo's library, Nintendo practically has a character that can easily fit an archetype Smash doesn't have. Need a Samurai? There's Takamaru. Need a cowboy? Dillon's round the corner. Need a robot that looks like a Gundam? Custom Robo says hi.

I had an idea that a lot of people seem to really dislike over on GameFAQs if they ever decided to start fresh and reboot the series. It seems pretty controversial but I might as well share it here and see what you guys think.

Assuming the next Smash reboots the series, I think a cool idea for Fire Emblem representation is to have a series of Hero or Bowser Jr. type characters based on weapon types or classes instead of focusing on just going with a separate character for the lord of each game. So basically, for example, we could have a sword Hero, a spear Hero, and an axe Hero (and possibly others for mages or archers etc..). Each of these units would have a different character represented for each outfit, similar to the Koopalings. Since most units of the same class in Fire Emblem fight nearly identically, this would allow for a much wider selection of characters and play styles without taking up too much roster space. You can even get a little creative with alts, as Cloud has shown, giving them some different Final Smash attacks, taunts, and voice clips, as long as the gameplay balance remains identical.

The main issue is, to go with this idea, we’d probably have to demote characters with derivative fighting styles like Lucina, Roy, and Chrom would have to be demoted to Marth alts and lose their unique traits. Some exceptions could be made for characters with very unique traits like Corrin that don’t fit neatly into a class. Okay ke wouldn’t work as a Marth moveset either, so he’d have to remain a unique character if we kept him. Same goes for Byleth, assuming any of these three return for a rebooted Smash game.

I feel like Fire Emblem Heroes probably expanded a lot of peoples appreciation for characters beyond just lords and there is actually a good way to represent a lot of these characters while remaining true to their gameplay in their home series. I’ve also personally always been a bigger fan of side characters like Tharja, Rinkah, Petra, Felix, Shamir, Lon’qu, and Lucia than the lords and this solution gives characters like these a chance. Something like this would likely only work if the series was rebooted and might require a lot of cuts to existing Fire Emblem characters in order to not overload the roster with Fire Emblem but I think it’s worth considering.

This doesn't work as well as you'd think. Like, I have advocated for a Hero-like scenario with some of the Fire Emblem Lords and the Myrmidon characters, but this really doesn't work as well as you'd think. The most biggest reason being body-shape and playstyle.
Like I would like to see Hector in Smash, but you cannot fit any Axe character on him. You just can't. One being that he's an Armoured unit, akin to Black Knight, so he's not going to be speedy. Characters like Pre-Timeskip Edelgard, Rinkah, Dorcas, etc, they aren't armoured units. Nor can Hector go onto any of them. Second is that he's huge. Many other characters are not going to reach his size and build. Same for Lance characters in that not every character is going to have a similar playstyle or build.
And Mages have a big issue with trying to do a Hero-style character. Many of them do not use the same magic. Robin wasn't associated with an element before Smash Bros. In Awakening, they can use just about all Tomes they have aside from Dark Magic technically, but they can use that as a Sorcerer. Because in Awakening and Fates, there only was Tomes, not different Magic. While in the other games that have them, there were 3 types of Magic, Anima, Light and Dark. A Priest could not use Anima or Dark, only Light. A Dark Mage could only use Dark Tomes and a Mage could only use Anima.
And this is especially notable in Fire Emblem Heroes where there are 4 colors of Tomes. Robin was based on his Awakening appearance, so they were not associated with an element. Whereas most other characters, especially the notable ones like Micaiah, Arvis, Merric, etc, for the most part primarily stick to one Magic type. Basically, you can't really do a Mage Hero character unless you either stick to one Magic-type or have to deal with alot of inconsistency.

Like I get that Fire Emblem has a load of templates that are filled with character types that were especially emphasised by Fire Emblem Heroes. but while a couple could work, many others really don't work as well as you would think. If anything, the Breidablik as an item summoning characters would work much more than trying to do a ton of "Hero" characters.

Yeah, that’s a good idea. I’m personally in favor of more Bowser Jr. or Hero style characters wherever they make sense. Its probably a bit late at this point without a series reboot, but if there was one, I could potentially see this idea working for the aforementioned Fire Emblen characters along with the Star Fox crew and F-Zero racers since they all have similar gameplay between units in their home me series with a ton of potential characters for representation.

I know Sakurai did have the idea for Slippy and Peppy to be alts of Fox(alongside Falco) in Smash, but at this point, I don't see how Slippy and Peppy could work now. I don't see them being anywhere near as athletic nor limber as Fox and Falco.
And how do you even apply a Hero-scenario to F-Zero characters? At all? Like I understand you are talking a reboot with a rebooted moveset, but even then, that would be ignoring all of the characters' established traits and lore. And that's not even adding in the different body-shapes and builds as well.

 

[Quillion]

Y Yamat08 : I'd be in favor of having our cake and eating it too: retain the 64/Melee characters' movesets as they are (for the most part; I'd like to see Mario's Down B reverted to Tornado and Bowser just reverted to his Melee animations) and give them selectable moveset options to some of them (not all, though).

 

[Wonder Smash]

This is why I'd feel a character from Overwatch might be the best choice if they'd absolutely have to have a FPS fighter, cause in Overwatch there's also a huge fantasy theme going on, and mixes shooting with magic and related stuff.

You're acting as if DOOM itself doesn't have any fantasy or sci-fi elements of its own.

Overall, DOOM's theme is very similar to Metroid's.

 

[Yamat08]

Y Yamat08 : I'd be in favor of having our cake and eating it too: retain the 64/Melee characters' movesets as they are (for the most part; I'd like to see Mario's Down B reverted to Tornado and Bowser just reverted to his Melee animations) and give them selectable moveset options to some of them (not all, though).

I'd be fine with that, but shouldn't they do something to make it obvious which kind of moveset you're going against? Weapon equip sets would be an obvious stand-out, but what would be the solution otherwise? Do what I brought up earlier and make more variants of the same character (so stuff like Dr. Mario or the Links, except without being clones)? Or should it be something more subtle, like changing the character's pose on the character select screen and differentiating things like their idle stance and general movements?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm pretty sure that if Sakurai/Nintendo can somehow make Minecraft and Steve work in Smash that Sakurai/Nintendo could very well have no issue doing a FPS character.

It's extremely generous of you to suggest that Steve, one of the worst playing characters, "works" in Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

Honestly, I fail to see how the 64/Melee veterans would be all that different or need to be different if there was this hypothetical reboot

in a hypothetical reboot i dont see falcon and ness getting in

 

[Gengar84]

I'm pretty sure that if Sakurai/Nintendo can somehow make Minecraft and Steve work in Smash that Sakurai/Nintendo could very well have no issue doing a FPS character.

If we look at Nintendo's library, Nintendo practically has a character that can easily fit an archetype Smash doesn't have. Need a Samurai? There's Takamaru. Need a cowboy? Dillon's round the corner. Need a robot that looks like a Gundam? Custom Robo says hi.

This doesn't work as well as you'd think. Like, I have advocated for a Hero-like scenario with some of the Fire Emblem Lords and the Myrmidon characters, but this really doesn't work as well as you'd think. The most biggest reason being body-shape and playstyle.
Like I would like to see Hector in Smash, but you cannot fit any Axe character on him. You just can't. One being that he's an Armoured unit, akin to Black Knight, so he's not going to be speedy. Characters like Pre-Timeskip Edelgard, Rinkah, Dorcas, etc, they aren't armoured units. Nor can Hector go onto any of them. Second is that he's huge. Many other characters are not going to reach his size and build. Same for Lance characters in that not every character is going to have a similar playstyle or build.
And Mages have a big issue with trying to do a Hero-style character. Many of them do not use the same magic. Robin wasn't associated with an element before Smash Bros. In Awakening, they can use just about all Tomes they have aside from Dark Magic technically, but they can use that as a Sorcerer. Because in Awakening and Fates, there only was Tomes, not different Magic. While in the other games that have them, there were 3 types of Magic, Anima, Light and Dark. A Priest could not use Anima or Dark, only Light. A Dark Mage could only use Dark Tomes and a Mage could only use Anima.
And this is especially notable in Fire Emblem Heroes where there are 4 colors of Tomes. Robin was based on his Awakening appearance, so they were not associated with an element. Whereas most other characters, especially the notable ones like Micaiah, Arvis, Merric, etc, for the most part primarily stick to one Magic type. Basically, you can't really do a Mage Hero character unless you either stick to one Magic-type or have to deal with alot of inconsistency.

Like I get that Fire Emblem has a load of templates that are filled with character types that were especially emphasised by Fire Emblem Heroes. but while a couple could work, many others really don't work as well as you would think. If anything, the Breidablik as an item summoning characters would work much more than trying to do a ton of "Hero" characters.

I know Sakurai did have the idea for Slippy and Peppy to be alts of Fox(alongside Falco) in Smash, but at this point, I don't see how Slippy and Peppy could work now. I don't see them being anywhere near as athletic nor limber as Fox and Falco.
And how do you even apply a Hero-scenario to F-Zero characters? At all? Like I understand you are talking a reboot with a rebooted moveset, but even then, that would be ignoring all of the characters' established traits and lore. And that's not even adding in the different body-shapes and builds as well.

I think this would only work for certain racers, if at all. Obviously characters with wildly different body types like Samurai Goroh probably wouldn’t work very well and wouldn’t be included but I think other racers with relatively similar builds to Falcon could work. Anyway, F-Zero was just a last minute thought since Falcons moves are completely made up for Smash anyway and might not work. I just figured that you wouldn’t have to worry about the movesets remaining faithful to the source material because the characters are just racers like Falcon so Sakurai could do whatever he wants with them.

As for Hector, they did already shrink Chrom to fit Roy’s frame in order to make him an echo so I don’t think resizing characters to make them fit as alts would be any different than what Smash has already done. Ike’s Radiant Dawn outfit isn’t any bigger than his Path of Radiance one. On top of that, Ridley, K. Rool, and Bowser are all too small while Young Link, Olimar, Pikachu, Kirby and others are too big. I’m not sure how much size really matters in Smash. What they would likely do is find a middle ground between the largest and smallest units of that class and resize all of the characters to fit that. Only going with post time skip Edelgarde would likely help a lot with this.

You do make some goods points though, which is why character selection would have to take class into account as well as weapon type. The mage class would only include black mages like Soren and Tharja so healers would be left out. Obviously a Myrmidon like Mia would never work with the same moveset as someone like the Black Knight, which is why I mentioned some exceptions would have to be made for special cases like this and the Black Knight (or other unique fighters) could still get in as their own separate character.

For units within the same class with relatively similar builds, I think it’s fine making some sacrifices in order to make them work as alts, though I don’t think you’d have to sacrifice much. Sakurai has already done this with the Koopalings. Clones/Echos already in the game like Dark Samus, Daisy, Ganondorf, and others already made much bigger compromises to their movesets to fit in Smash than the Fire Emblem characters would have to.

Anyway, this whole idea is pretty much strictly hypothetical and would likely never happen. I just think it could be a fun alternative to think about.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You're acting as if DOOM itself doesn't have any fantasy or sci-fi elements of its own.

Overall, DOOM's theme is very similar to Metroid's.

I actually am more open to DOOM Slayer than Master Chief honestly, but I can't say I'd be very hyped for it to happen

 

[Gengar84]

I actually am more open to DOOM Slayer than Master Chief honestly, but I can't say I'd be very hyped for it to happen

I would be completely fine with either one and I honestly think they’d both be pretty cool even if I would prefer Doom Slayer. My biggest problem with both of them along with Crash is that they are all Microsoft characters and a lot of my personal most wanted characters also happen to be Microsoft characters in the Battletoads, Fulgore, Sarah Kerrigan, and Illidan Stormrage. I’ll still be happy either way but I feel like my personal favorites have a steep uphill battle against much more popular general picks.

 

[fogbadge]

I would be completely fine with either one and I honestly think they’d both be pretty cool even if I would prefer Doom Slayer. My biggest problem with both of them along with Crash is that they are all Microsoft characters and a lot of my personal most wanted characters also happen to be Microsoft characters in the Battletoads, Fulgore, Sarah Kerrigan, and Illidan Stormrage. I’ll still be happy either way but I feel like my personal favorites have a steep uphill battle against much more popular general picks.

thats true for us nintendo fans as well

 

[Gengar84]

thats true for us nintendo fans as well

The funny thing for me is that Nintendo has always been my favorite gaming company but I’m more or less content with the roster we already have. Most of my favorite first party characters like Gengar, Goomba, HW Impa, Bugzzy, Medusa, and Jena Anderson are such long shots that I end up rooting for mostly third parties. There are a few more realistic first party characters I’d still love to see like Dixie Kong (original moveset, either with animal buddies or teaming with Kiddy), Akira Howard, and EMMI but none of those are locks either. I’m not that interested in Dixie as a Diddy echo since that basically removed everything that was interesting about her playstyle. I also want to see the mechanics of the original SNES trilogy better represented in some way and Diddy was much more heavily based on DK64.

 

[fogbadge]

The funny thing for me is that Nintendo has always been my favorite gaming company but I’m more or less content with the roster we already have. Most of my favorite first party characters like Gengar, Goomba, HW Impa, Bugzzy, Medusa, and Jena Anderson are such long shots that I end up rooting for mostly third parties. There are a few more realistic first party characters I’d still love to see like Dixie Kong (original moveset, either with animal buddies or teaming with Kiddy), Akira Howard, and EMMI but none of those are locks either. I’m not that interested in Dixie as a Diddy echo since that basically removed everything that was interesting about her playstyle. I also want to see the mechanics of the original SNES trilogy better represented in some way and Diddy was much more heavily based on DK64.

I know what you mean to a certain extent. Chibi-robo is an extreme long shot after four games of being someone else’s move toad ain’t happening either. Howard is probably the best shot but that depends on if the series has a future

diddy could be more based on dk64 with his charge, spring and guitar

 

[Gengar84]

I know what you mean to a certain extent. Chibi-robo is an extreme long shot after four games of being someone else’s move toad ain’t happening either. Howard is probably the best shot but that depends on if the series has a future

diddy could be more based on dk64 with his charge, spring and guitar

I’m sure people are getting sick of me bringing up RARE by now so I’ll try to cut back for a while but that’s one big reason that I’ve always wanted more representation from the company in Smash beyond just Banjo. From the NES through the N64, RARE’s characters and games almost felt like first party Nintendo properties since the companies were so close. That and I just love the Battletoads, Killer Instinct, and Perfect Dark.

 

[fogbadge]

I’m sure people are getting sick of me bringing up RARE by now so I’ll try to cut back for a while but that’s one big reason that I’ve always wanted more representation from the company in Smash beyond just Banjo. From the NES through the N64, RARE’s characters and games almost felt like first party Nintendo properties since the companies were so close. That and I just love the Battletoads, Killer Instinct, and Perfect Dark.

well they were first parties back in the day

 

[Gengar84]

well they were first parties back in the day

Yeah, I’m not sure if they were technically first party but Nintendo did own almost half the stocks in the company if I remember correctly. I feel like most of the Smash community doesn’t really care about that. Even though I love RARE, I honestly can’t blame Smash fans for not having much of an interest since the company has been with Microsoft for longer than a lot of fans have been alive. Microsoft and RARE also haven’t done the greatest job keeping their IP relevant since leaving Nintendo so I think a lot of RARE supporters are older people like me.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, I’m not sure if they were technically first party but Nintendo did own almost half the stocks in the company if I remember correctly. I feel like most of the Smash community doesn’t really care about that. Even though I love RARE, I honestly can’t blame Smash fans for not having much of an interest since the company has been with Microsoft for longer than a lot of fans have been alive. Microsoft and RARE also haven’t done the greatest job keeping their IP relevant since leaving Nintendo so I think a lot of RARE supporters are older people like me.

the copyright of many of them were co owned by Nintendo which makes them 1st party

some people would say 2nd part but that doesn’t actually mean anything

 

[Gengar84]

the copyright of many of them were co owned by Nintendo which makes them 1st party

some people would say 2nd part but that doesn’t actually mean anything

All the more reason for more RARE characters to get into Smash. I honestly thought they were very deserving before knowing that they were actually considered first party at that point. Most people now just see RARE characters as more Microsoft reps and while that’s technically true I think their history with Nintendo makes them a lot more than just that. I personally feel that their history puts RARE in a whole different class than any other third party developer since many of their characters actually were first party Nintendo characters at one point if that’s true. Even if their most iconic characters weren’t ever owned by Nintendo (I’m not sure on that one), I feel like they would fit right in with Smash to represent an important part of Nintendo’s past.

Moving onto another topic in case people are sick of RARE right now lol. I just started watching Arcane but I have no prior experience or knowledge of the League of Legends universe beyond that and just looking up images of all the characters. I’ve only seen one episode so far but I’m enjoying what I’ve seen. I believe right now, Ahri is the most popular choice to represent LoL in Smash but do you think Arcane pushes Jinx ahead of her? Jinx was already a top contender before this so I think there’s a good chance she might be the most likely at this point.

 

[Chuderz]

Rare properties aren't co-owned in any way. Either Nintendo got 'em or Rare did.

Nintendo got all the characters that Rare created for the Donkey Kong universe so all the kongs, K. Rool, animal transformation designs and that one Kremling in Diddy Kong Racing. They also got all the original characters in the Star Fox adventure game so like Krystal and Tricky and in addition to that they likely the character concepts of the characters in Dinosaur Planet the predecessor to that game but I don't know that for sure or even unused character concepts are subject to intellectual property laws.

Everything else went to Rare where it's better off. It literally couldn't have been better split minus maybe Banjo & Kazooie universe not going to Nintendo but I have my doubts it'd be better off there than it is at Rare considering Nintendo lets a whole metric ton of IP with potential just sit and rot for no seemingly good reason other than they're relatively short-staffed compared to the other big hardware companies. Still waiting on those Toys for Bob Banjo 1 and 2ie remasters though.

 

[Quillion]

I'd be fine with that, but shouldn't they do something to make it obvious which kind of moveset you're going against? Weapon equip sets would be an obvious stand-out, but what would be the solution otherwise? Do what I brought up earlier and make more variants of the same character (so stuff like Dr. Mario or the Links, except without being clones)? Or should it be something more subtle, like changing the character's pose on the character select screen and differentiating things like their idle stance and general movements?

I'd say go the simple route and just put text on the CSS portrait that indicates what normalset you're using, then have a drop-down menu where you can select specials there too.

 

[Gengar84]

Rare properties aren't co-owned in any way. Either Nintendo got 'em or Rare did.

Nintendo got all the characters that Rare created for the Donkey Kong universe so all the kongs, K. Rool, animal transformation designs and that one Kremling in Diddy Kong Racing. They also got all the original characters in the Star Fox adventure game so like Krystal and Tricky and in addition to that they likely the character concepts of the characters in Dinosaur Planet the predecessor to that game but I don't know that for sure or even unused character concepts are subject to intellectual property laws.

Everything else went to Rare where it's better off. It literally couldn't have been better split minus maybe Banjo & Kazooie universe not going to Nintendo but I have my doubts it'd be better off there than it is at Rare considering Nintendo lets a whole metric ton of IP with potential just sit and rot for no seemingly good reason other than they're relatively short-staffed compared to the other big hardware companies. Still waiting on those Toys for Bob Banjo 1 and 2ie remasters though.

I think Fogbadge was referring to when RARE was still with Nintendo. I realize that the properties and characters have completely separate ownership since RARE’s acquisition by Microsoft but were the properties co-owned before that point? All I know is that Nintendo owned nearly half the stock in RARE but copyright and IP ownership legality was always something I never completely followed.

I had always assumed that RARE and Nintendo’s relationship back then was roughly similar to Nintendo’s relationship with the Pokémon Company today. They are technically separate companies but Nintendo has partial ownership and both companies are often thought of as Nintendo despite being their own thing.

 

[fogbadge]

I think Fogbadge was referring to when RARE was still with Nintendo. I realize that the properties and characters have completely separate ownership since RARE’s acquisition by Microsoft but were the properties co-owned before that point? All I know is that Nintendo owned nearly half the stock in RARE but copyright and IP ownership legality was always something I never completely followed.

as you say thats what i was referring to. hence why i was using terms that mean the past thence

 

[Gengar84]

as you say thats what i was referring to. hence why i was using terms that mean the past thence

There is one small thing that gives me some hope in getting more RARE characters in Smash in future installments even if it might be an insignificant detail. That would be Banjo’s intro trailer and splash screen. Sakurai seemed to go out of his way to reference RARE as a company in Banjo’s trailer and his intro even says “Raring to go!”. It’s true that this may not end up meaning much but I think it does show that a lot of people personally care about the company and Sakurai acknowledges that. I don’t recall any other third party guest going that far to reference the company they came from in their intro trailer.

 

[Wonder Smash]

There's nothing wrong with talking about RARE characters. This topic is for discussions like that.

For me, Banjo and Kazooie were my MWs for Smash 64 and Melee, so I'm satisfied with just them.

 

[Gengar84]

There's nothing wrong with talking about RARE characters. This topic is for discussions like that.

For me, Banjo and Kazooie were my MWs for Smash 64 and Melee, so I'm satisfied with just them.

That’s fair. I feel like I probably just talk about them too often and I imagine some people are probably getting sick of me bringing them up by now lol.

As for Banjo, Banjo-Kazooie and Perfect Dark were my favorite actual games to play through by RARE after DKC2 but as characters, they were always below the Battletoads and Fulgore (and other KI characters). I’m excited Banjo got in but I usually prioritize characters I like over games I liked better so Banjo was never my number one choice for the company even if he made the most sense. I did also love playing Battletoads even if I could never get past stage 4 and KI even if I’ve never been good at fighting games. I’m not sure that made any sense lol.

 

[Quillion]

As far as Microsoft characters go, I really hate that Microsoft has gotten into this ****ty habit of acquiring companies who have been serving other platforms for years seemingly because they want to own their characters instead of making their own. I hate it even more that Sony is seemingly doing it too just to keep up with Microsoft.

Frankly, I'm glad that all Nintendo is doing on this front thus far is acquiring a purely technical company they've been working with for decades rather than steal a 3rd party company away from everyone else.

 

[fogbadge]

There's nothing wrong with talking about RARE characters. This topic is for discussions like that.

For me, Banjo and Kazooie were my MWs for Smash 64 and Melee, so I'm satisfied with just them.

I feel I should congratulations

 

[Gengar84]

I feel I should congratulations

Yeah, it’s awesome to finally get a character you’ve been wanting since the beginning. While my brother and mine has always been Battletoads since Smash 64 for our number one, we have gotten quite a few over the years that we still wanted. We voted for K. Rool in the ballot and Sephiroth has been one of my favorite video game characters since I played FFVII over 20 years ago so I can’t really complain.

Now that I’m on the subject of talking about the Battletoads, which have been my brother and my most wanted characters since Smash 64, I might as well share what I came up with for them a while back again.

Introduction

The Battletoads franchise was developed in 1991 by RARE in order to rival the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. These games cover a wide variety of genres within the same game, with each stage playing differently from the last. The franchise even got a one episode cartoon. While the series has been dormant since the days of the SNES, it has been kept in people's minds thanks to memes and stories of its insane difficulty. This generation, the series has been getting a bit of a resurgence from appearing as guests in Shovel Knight and Killer Instinct to the announcement of a new game at this year's E3.

Who are the Battletoads?

The backstory for the Battletoads is actually very similar to the anime/light novel Sword Art Online. The toads began as human computer technicians and game testers. After they began having suspicions that their boss Silas Volkimore was up to no good, they decided to investigate the office at night and discovered that one of the games they had been testing had been tampered with and were sucked into the game world. There they meet Professor T. Bird who becomes their mentor and trains them to fight the evil Dark Queen.

The Battletoads have the ability to transform their bodies into a variety of different objects such as growing ram horns to headbutt, turning their fist into a giant hammer, and even transforming their entire bodies into a wrecking ball. In addition to this, they can also pilot vehicles such as speeder bikes, jet packs, and hover crafts.

Why should they be considered for Smash Bros.?

Battletoads and RARE have a lot of history with Nintendo. While Banjo-Kazooie may be the face of Rare in the N64 era, Battletoads was among their most iconic games of the NES and SNES eras. They also have a ton of potential to have a very unique moveset. While Banjo-Kazooie is most likely the first pick if RARE was to get a character, I believe the Battletoads are strong contenders for a potential second rep for the company.

Potential Moveset

Warning: This uses a lot of GIFs to show off the attacks.

Spoiler

Gimmick:
In their games, the Battletoads transform their limbs when they are about to inflict the finishing blow to an enemy. To represent this in Smash, one potential idea is to power up their attacks when the opponent is at 100% damage or higher. This would be visually represented by having their limbs transform. If this wouldn't work, just having their limbs always transform for attacks can also work.

Weak Attacks:
A Combo — Kiss My Fist
The Battletoad attacks with two regular punches followed by a big punch where his fist grows.

Forward Tilt — BT Big Hammer
The Battletoad attacks by swinging both hands left then right. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, the attack will be replaced by a giant hammer.

Up Tilt
A short uppercut

Down Tilt — Ball n’ Chain
The Battletoad delivers a leg sweep. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and his foot is replaced by a spiked ball and chain.

Running A — Charge n’ Barge
The Battletoad delivers a running head butt to his opponent. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and the Battletoad has ram horns appear on his head.

Smash Attacks:
Forward Smash — Big Bad Boot
The Battletoad punts his opponent. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and the Battletoad’s foot turns into a big boot and he jumps in the air a bit.

Up Smash — Stone Fist
The Battletoad delivers a fierce uppercut. Normally, his hand just grows bigger (like many of Mario’s attacks), but if the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and his fist turns to stone.

Down Smash
The Battletoad clasps his hands together (like Donkey Kong’s Aerial Forward A) and smashes his opponent into the ground (like Donkey Kong’s Forward B).

Specials:
Neutral B — Walker Leg
The Battletoad takes out a walker leg. After striking with this a few times, it leads to a command grab where they lift their opponent up and can choose to either smack them forward or toss them backward.

Forward B — Speeder Bike
This could work exactly like Wario’s motorcycle, except they would be using their speeder bikes from the Turbo Tunnel stages.

Up B — Rope
The Battletoad swings his arm like Donkey Kong’s windup punch and throws a rope upwards and attaches to any surface that he uses to swing like Spiderman. If you press B while swinging, he can turn into a wrecking ball and attack the opponent. This can be used as a tether recovery.

Down B — Drilla Killa
The Battletoad launches forward with an drill, using animation like Metaknight’s Forward B. When using it in the air, it would travel diagonally downwards like Falcon Kick.

Grabs:

Grab
The Battletoads have a tether grab with their tongue similar to Yoshi. Unlike Yoshi, the toads don’t swallow their opponents and only drags them closer like Link’s hookshot. Like the hookshot, the toads can also use their tongues as another tether recovery.

Pummel
The Battletoad kicks their opponent in the gut.

Forward Throw
The Battletoads pick up and carry their opponent similar to DK and can toss them in several directions.

Back Throw
The Battletoad grabs their opponent’s head and smashes them back and forth into the ground.

Up Throw
A simple toss upwards

Down Throw
The Battletoads jump in the air and slam their opponent down similar to DK's throw.

Aerial Attacks:
Neutral A
The Battletoad attacks with his arms outstretched and hitting enemies on both sides.

Forward A — Anvil Swipe
Something very similar to Gandondorf's. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and his hand is replaced by an anvil.

Back A — Flying Battleaxe
This attack would look a lot like Fox's. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, the move becomes stronger and his foot could become an axe.

Up A — Soarin’ Saw Blade
The base attack would be a standard somersault kick like Ganondorf. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, the move becomes stronger and his feet are replaced by a Buzz Saw.

Down A — Wun Tun Stomp
The Battletoad stomps down with one foot similar to DK but it causes the Battletoad to drop down like Toon Link’s Aerial Down A. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and the battletoad’s foot is replaced by a huge weight.

Final Smash
This could play pretty much exactly like Pikachu’s Final Smash. The Battletoad could turn into a spiked wrecking ball instead of an electric one. Afterwards, all of the Battletoad’s attacks can be their fully powered up versions for a little while.

The series has amazing music too. Here’s a link to the OST of some of their games for an idea of what they sound like:

Spoiler

Battletoads In Battlemaniacs OST [SNES Version 1993]

Battletoads In Battlemaniacs OST [Full HD SNES Version 1993].Theme list with parts / links:00:00 01. Main Theme03:06 02. Ragnarok Canyon [Stage #1]07:32 03. ...

m.youtube.com

Battletoads & Double Dragon (Full OST) - SNES

Complete soundtrack from Battletoads & Double Dragon (Super Nintendo).Tracklist ♫ (with internal time links):01. Main Theme - 0:0002. Introduction - 02:05 03...

m.youtube.com

Battletoads 2020 (OST) - David Housden | Full + Timestamps [Original Game Soundtrack]

🎵 Composers: David Housden🎮 Remember to Subscribe and hit the bell! New videos every day :)👇 TracklistBattletoads - 00:00Pause - 00:59Khaos Mountains 2.0 ...

m.youtube.com

Rash's Theme (Fully Edited) - Killer Instinct Season 3

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/gakb6lh4jhd64xk/Rash%27s_Theme.mp3And we're alost done with the launch characters. Stay tuned for Arbiter la...

m.youtube.com

 

[Diddy Kong]

I would be completely fine with either one and I honestly think they’d both be pretty cool even if I would prefer Doom Slayer. My biggest problem with both of them along with Crash is that they are all Microsoft characters and a lot of my personal most wanted characters also happen to be Microsoft characters in the Battletoads, Fulgore, Sarah Kerrigan, and Illidan Stormrage. I’ll still be happy either way but I feel like my personal favorites have a steep uphill battle against much more popular general picks.

I can and I will totally stand behind the Battletoads to make it in Smash, for many reasons but mostly cause they'd be hilarious. And they're from a fighting game (sort of), are made by Rare of course, and originated on Nintendo, a combination I love despite never playing the games. And I see now that you even posted a move set up! Know what, I'll support it fully.

Also about the whole Fire Emblem character alt thing, a lot of that could work. Hector and Edelgard for example, Seliph, Leif and Alm for Marth / Roy / Chrom, but that's honestly about it. A standalone fighter they could make with very many alts is the Pegasus Rider, having as alts Palla, Catria, Est and other notable Pegasus Riders from Fire Emblem. But that's a hot take.

 

[Ivander]

I think this would only work for certain racers, if at all. Obviously characters with wildly different body types like Samurai Goroh probably wouldn’t work very well and wouldn’t be included but I think other racers with relatively similar builds to Falcon could work. Anyway, F-Zero was just a last minute thought since Falcons moves are completely made up for Smash anyway and might not work. I just figured that you wouldn’t have to worry about the movesets remaining faithful to the source material because the characters are just racers like Falcon so Sakurai could do whatever he wants with them.

But that's still ignoring what some characters have established in their game. Pico could be the same size and similar shaping as Captain Falcon, but that would be ignoring the fact that he is a Boba Fett-esque hitman proficient with different weapons.

Like making an original moveset just so that some characters can share a spot together would not only require that moveset to be ungodly original and precise for it to work for all those characters in the first place, but also require ignoring already established traits and lore of those characters. That feels like very much the opposite of what Smash Bros. characters are made in mind with. The movesets are made with intent and respect for not just the characters, but also the games they came from.
Hero and Olimar/Alph work because their movesets had the gameplay in mind and intent and the characters they chose fit perfectly with that moveset. In Bowser Jr.'s case, the moveset was made with Bowser Jr. in mind and the Koopalings were basically for cool factor Alternates that the team felt they could use with the moveset without it being out-of-nowhere.

As for Hector, they did already shrink Chrom to fit Roy’s frame in order to make him an echo so I don’t think resizing characters to make them fit as alts would be any different than what Smash has already done.

It's still not easy considering it's jarring enough that Chrom is the same height as Lucina in Smash Bros. despite Lucina being shorter than Chrom officially in their game. It may seem easy because the characters are never really seen side-by-side with a character from another game(especially compared to Heroes where characters tend to look the same height due to chibi-fied sprites) and most Fire Emblem characters don't have official heights. You wouldn't know how tall Chrom is compared to Roy and whatnot, so you could make them the same size if you wanted. But that doesn't mean that every character should be adjusted just to favor gameplay.
In the case for Hector, we have a CG of Lyn, Eliwood and Hector together and Hector is shown to be quite large.

If Eliwood were to be around the same height as the other main characters, Hector would be a head-size over them. Depending on the characters he was sharing spots with, you'd either have to make him much more shorter or make the other characters much larger, especially depending on the character. Edelgard is shorter than Byleth, so assuming Byleth is shorter than Hector, Hector would be towering over Edelgard. Even if you did a middle ground for them, it would still look quite jarring considering it would either make Edelgard look too tall or Hector too short. And do note that Timeskip Edelgard is the same height as Pre-Timeskip Edelgard.

It's really not so simple to just change characters or movesets just to make other characters fit. Smash Bros. is about quality and respect to the characters and the games they are from. When you make movesets just to have characters share spots, it can easily lose that quality.
Like the only reason why we have Chrom, Roy and Lucina along with Marth is because one: Lucina was both a popular character and an easy Clone at the time due to being an intended Costume for Marth. And two: Roy and Chrom were wanted by fans. Roy's moveset was done as a Semi-Clone style of Marth's due to having originally been a clone of Marth and wanting to keep a similar feel for Roy's gameplay in Melee, and Chrom was an easy Echo they could do.