Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Nabbitfan730]

Honestly that video is posted really go in depth in what and how characters getting into the roster beyond just being popular. I really do recommend you guys watch.

Like the way he highlights themes and archetypes are important and standing out. I feel like that's why character like Shadow and Toad keep missing the mark despite their popularity. There isn't much differentiate their characters from the already existing ones in roster like Sonic or Mario respectively until very recently like echoes but i don't they will be major staple going forward like fans other just to save time like usual clones

Makes more sense putting in someone who popular AND unique like Piranha Plant than some like Toad who lacks the latter and we already Speedster like archetype like Sonic already. Unless Shadow an echo, he ain't going make in. The next choices will either him or Eggman

I also feel like this is reason we won't get extra reps from fighting game other than the main characters(except echos like Ken ofc) because said rep essentially rep their entire games and extras would be redundant.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Honestly that video is posted really go in depth in what and how characters getting into the roster beyond just being popular. I really do recommend you guys watch.

Like the way he highlights themes and archetypes are important and standing out. I feel like that's why character like Shadow and Toad keep missing the mark despite their popularity. There isn't much differentiate their characters from the already existing ones in roster like Sonic or Mario respectively until very recently like echoes but i don't they will be major staple going forward like fans other just to save time like usual clones

Makes more sense putting in someone who popular AND unique like Piranha Plant than some like Toad who lacks the latter and we already Speedster like archetype like Sonic already. Unless Shadow an echo, he ain't going make in. The next choices will either him or Eggman

I also feel like this is reason we won't get extra reps from fighting game other than the main characters(except echos like Ken ofc) because said rep essentially rep their entire games and extras would be redundant.

I don’t fully believe this. Shadow specially has plenty to make himself different to Sonic with his chaos abilities etc.

And as for other fighting game characters getting more reps from the same series. I think it can work mostly, like with Chun Li cause she is so different to Ryu and Ken.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I don’t fully believe this. Shadow specially has plenty to make himself different to Sonic with his chaos abilities etc.

And as for other fighting game characters getting more reps from the same series. I think it can work mostly, like with Chun Li cause she is so different to Ryu and Ken.

Would those chaos abilities make sense & with his archetype tho? Sonic with projectiles and zoning capabilities?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd like to state again that Armorouge and Ceruledge both learn Ally Swap, and while it's not a swapout move like Baton Pass, I think it works within acceptable creative liberties to just say that's how they swap.

 

[Will]

Would those chaos abilities make sense & with his archetype tho? Sonic with projectiles and zoning capabilities?

I don’t see why not. Are you implying he’d be cracked just by being as fast as Sonic?

 

[Nickthebrick1]

Thoughts? He made some really good points.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Would those chaos abilities make sense & with his archetype tho? Sonic with projectiles and zoning capabilities?

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If it’s anything like this then yeah definitely possible.

 

[smashkirby]

You know what's another franchise I'm hoping Nintendo will bring back for the Switch 2?

Pilotwings

For as much as I would LOVE to see this happen (Bonus points if the cast of PW64 returned for it as playable characters), I'm more inclined to believe that Pilotwings would be a Switch 2 launch title...

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Id be down with a new PilotWings if they stop associating it with the Mii games

 

[chocolatejr9]

Id be down with a new PilotWings if they stop associating it with the Mii games

Only if we get Tomodachi Life 2 to compensate. I've already accepted that they've been replaced for the hypothetical Nintendo Switch Sports 2...

 

[Ivander]

Speaking of Miis, it'd be great if we got the Mii Maker back for Switch 2 and it came with all of Miitopia's features and whatnot.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Would those chaos abilities make sense & with his archetype tho? Sonic with projectiles and zoning capabilities?

Id agree with you like 5 years ago but now that shadow got venom squid powers something as small as "shadows up B is using chaos control to teleport him back to the stage" is now "Shadow can SOAR with his doom wings" and that changes everything.

 

[Perkilator]

(Meant to post this here days ago)

Maybe I’m in the minority but having Link’s alts be his tunics from across the series just feels forced to me. I know Sora’s alts are all of his different outfits + his Timeless River form, but his outfits are at least aesthetically different enough to justify it.

I think even if Link was limited to sets that were found in TotK, there are still plenty enough to work as alts without relying on other tunics.

1. Archaic Tunic (default)
2. Champion’s Leathers (w/cape)
3. Ember Armor
4. Frostbite Armor
5. Charged Armor
6. Old Shirt
7. Nintendo Switch T-Shirt
8. Dark set

Plus, Link’s Ultrahand could also be a spiritual successor to the Hookshot from the old days.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Shadow always had plenty to work with to be his own thing. And anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

The issue always was the fact he could be identical to Sonic may be enough for Sakurai to just go Echo just like with Dark Samus.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But I’m not sure if anyone cares that much? If they picked Ceruledge over Armorouge or Koraidon over Miraidon, I don’t think there’d be riots in the streets or anything.

Ceruledge is, like, 10x more popular than Armorouge.

It sucks wanting Meowscarada as the gen 9 rep because I just can't fathom the smash team not breaking the established starter pattern at this point.

Screw that! We're getting our Grass/Dark starter to complete the Greninja/Incineroar set!

Because that kind of idea works better for a Digimon, since they can Digivolve into stronger forms and De-digivolve back to previous forms, while Pokemon can only go forward, not back.

Pokemon also don't evolve mid-battle.

Because transformation gimmicks result in us getting characters we wouldn't normally given they're a package deal

Usually at the expense of characters that deserved that slot more.

We get some mediocre side character that wouldn't have been added otherwise, instead of a new, unique character, possibly from a whole new franchise.

Shadow always had plenty to work with to be his own thing. And anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

Aside from his original appearance. Where he played identically to Sonic.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

(Meant to post this here days ago)

Maybe I’m in the minority but having Link’s alts be his tunics from across the series just feels forced to me. I know Sora’s alts are all of his different outfits + his Timeless River form, but his outfits are at least aesthetically different enough to justify it.

I think even if Link was limited to sets that were found in TotK, there are still plenty enough to work as alts without relying on other tunics.

1. Archaic Tunic (default)
2. Champion’s Leathers (w/cape)
3. Ember Armor
4. Frostbite Armor
5. Charged Armor
6. Old Shirt
7. Nintendo Switch T-Shirt
8. Dark set

Plus, Link’s Ultrahand could also be a spiritual successor to the Hookshot from the old days.

Toon Link also has lot of potential since there are multiple games with the same artsyle.

1. Default
2. Red (FS)
3. Blue (FS)
4. Purple (FS)
5. Outset Island outfit (the one also featured in PM)
6. Minish Cap
7. Train Uniform (ST)
8. Any outfit from Tri Force Heroes

Young Link isn’t as lucky since his design is only used in OoT and MM unless they use the masks.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Pokemon also don't evolve mid-battle.

I mean I can give them that because they do in stuff like the anime and certain games like Pokemon Unite and stuff like that.

Plus technically Digimon don't do that either, at least in Cyber Sleuth, which is the one I've played. Gotta go to the DigiLab for that lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

crew that! We're getting our Grass/Dark starter to complete the Greninja/Incineroar set!

INB4 Greninja and/or Incineroar are no longer in the game.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Plus technically Digimon don't do that either, at least in Cyber Sleuth, which is the one I've played. Gotta go to the DigiLab for that lol

Gotta "Well ackshually" here.
The ones you use don't. But the story ones like the Agumon and Gabumon do.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Toon Zelda was actually a character that was worked on for Brawl before being cut, and are considered one of the "forbidden 7" that have data in the game:
Mewtwo (Had a wiimote sound and victory theme)
Roy (Victory theme)
Dr. Mario (The rest of these only have data for their names)
Dixie (Was supposed to be a tag fighter with Diddy)
Toon Zelda (Swapping fighter with...)
Toon Sheik (Possibly was Tetra but could have also been an original design)
pra_mai (Theorized to be the Pokemon Plusle and Minun, though how they would function is unclear)

Toon Zelda is a very easy clone however. Mewtwo, Roy and Dr.Mario came back literally one game after Brawl too. Toon Zelda would not take many resources to realize, no good excuse for her not to be included. They added last minute additions anyway in the form of Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr.Mario.

Zelda even got the Phantom Slash. That's something you'd give Toon Zelda not that version of Zelda. She never did that after all.

I don't think they'll ever include her honestly.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Gotta "Well ackshually" here.
The ones you use don't. But the story ones like the Agumon and Gabumon do.

Ah okay, it'd been a while so I knew Nokia's Agumon and Gabumon Digivolve a few times since they eventually become Omnimon, but I didn't remember if they did during a battle or not, I just remembered that the player's definitely don't lol

 

[ivanlerma]

Toon Zelda is a very easy clone however. Mewtwo, Roy and Dr.Mario came back literally one game after Brawl too. Toon Zelda would not take many resources to realize, no good excuse for her not to be included. They added last minute additions anyway in the form of Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr.Mario.

Zelda even got the Phantom Slash. That's something you'd give Toon Zelda not that version of Zelda. She never did that after all.

I don't think they'll ever include her honestly.

Unless they want to put Tetra in or Something that'll make people think Sakurai doesn't care about Zelda Characters outside of the Triforce Wielders.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Unless they want to put Tetra in or Something that'll make people think Sakurai doesn't care about Zelda Characters outside of the Triforce Wielders.

Tetra would've been a great idea. For Brawl I think. Tetra and Midna are characters that missed the boat here I feel. I personally would've preferred them over Sheik. But I said more than enough about that in the past

Also, my choice for a Zelda newcomer remains Impa. I see no better choice, but gotta admit that Master Kohga also would be a great choice given his villain status. However am more confident in Impa being a recurring character in the series and thus a better pick for the long run.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I feel like the biggest issue with predicting who staying or not is the fact that outside of Smash 64, any character is fair game even if they never got cut.

An example is Sheik who has stayed for this long but isn’t likely to return.

 

[dream1ng]

I feel like the biggest issue with predicting who staying or not is the fact that outside of Smash 64, any character is fair game even if they never got cut.

An example is Sheik who has stayed for this long but isn’t likely to return.

Well... not any character outside Smash 64. so on and so forth...

All of whom, frankly, are safer than

 

[Swamp Sensei]

An example is Sheik who has stayed for this long but isn’t likely to return.

Says who?

I think they'd need to absolutely gut the roster to get to the point where Sheik is in danger.

 

[ivanlerma]

So going on the topic of discussing the rumor from 4chan, if the stages have been decreased to 50-55 what stages do you expect to stay while others you think will not.

 

[Will]

I think there are certain characters who have more of an identity in Smash than their home franchise.

Most people probably think of when I say that, but I also think fits in that category too. I was thinking about it since the Impa vs Sheik comment; I personally think they can coexist since they apply Sheikah techniques differently not to mention 90% of sheik’s moveset was made-up just for smash.

Her Ultimate design is an amalgamation of almost all current Zelda representation. She’s wearing the Sheikah set from Breath of the Wild, voiced by the same Smash Zelda who’s supposed be based on A Link Between Worlds, but her only canon appearance was in Ocarina of Time 25 years ago.

Call me crazy but I think Sheik is a safe pick.

I posted my opinion on Sheik not too long ago ^

 

[Diddy Kong]

I feel like the biggest issue with predicting who staying or not is the fact that outside of Smash 64, any character is fair game even if they never got cut.

An example is Sheik who has stayed for this long but isn’t likely to return.

People would argue otherwise about Sheik. I very much think legacy is important. But I draw the line with Sheik and Ice Climbers whereas most would compare them with say, Ness and Captain Falcon. Jigglypuff being another character which brings up controversial opinions.

Personally I put Ness, Captain Falcon and even Jigglypuff (but her less so) above my personal priorities than Sheik and Ice Climbers, as those latter characters are included based on a gimmick that's either no longer present (Sheik) or always glitchy and has tendencies to lead to bull**** as infinitive chain grabs (Ice Climbers). It also doesn't help that Sheik never appeared in mainline Zelda games ever again, and Ice Climber isn't exactly on a similar league of legacy games as say, Duck Hunt, Punch Out, Kid Icarus or even Excite Bike or Balloon Fighter. The latter not even having characters in Smash.

Whereas Captain Falcon has a legacy that even goes beyond F Zero now, he's also the main face of a series. Same with Ness, even if Earth Bound and the Mother series in general have huge cult status. Both get relative attention here and there in forms of their games being made accessible, F Zero atudd being included Mario Kart, and yeah Sheik got similar attention in Zelda but with Zelda there's more to offer.

Same goes with Pokemon and Jigglypuff. More so even. The evidence show by the amount of Pokemon newcomers in each and every Smash game.

However, the Zelda franchise is stale in progression in Smash Bros. Pokemon isn't. Zelda is in my opinion weighted down by not including something new. And Pokemon does this every single time but manages to have Jigglypuff being included regardless. Jigglypuff is also just a character that probably takes around the same amount of work as a semi clone, and has relative easy simple moves too and will always have a solid base because of Kirby. Kirby is never going anywhere and is an insanely high priority character. So Jigglypuff is a special case. Because she's easy to include and Pokemon in Smash offers uniqueness every time.

So I don't know. Many people think Sheik and Ice Climbers warrant the same type of legacy inclusion as Captain Falcon and Ness, but I really don't think the same way. And regarding Jigglypuff , I'm just of the simple opinion of : why not?

EDIT: HAH! Now look at a post being made about this very thing while I was typing all this! Sheik being compared to Captain Falcon.

 

[Louie G.]

A bunch of post-64 characters who I don't believe are in any danger of being cut. I think anything is fair game past a certain point, but you still gotta shed past a good 25-30 characters before you get even close to that.

Also I think people underestimate Sheik's longevity on archetype alone. I'm somewhat conflicted on them compared to some other fighters, enough to put them in the "middling" category, but Sheik is kind of a foundational featherweight "hit and run" type and is Smash's original ninja character. A character archetype that Sakurai is evidently very fond of provided his selection of Greninja and consideration of Ninjara as well.

Yes, Sheik was once a part of a (undercooked) transformation mechanic with Zelda - but I don't feel like this is where their usefulness ends. I get that legacy isn't the be all end all here, and I leave the possibility open for Sheik to be cut after all, but I think Melee was early enough in the series' lifespan for Sheik to be considered a foundational archetypical character for others to be built upon much like the aforementioned Captain Falcon or Fox.

And as a side note, I find it funny that Zelda is struggling for representation on the roster as is and people are so eager to cut the most flavorful member of that cast. Sheik embodies much of what everyone says they want from Zelda - memorable one-shot characters with strong moveset hooks. But Sheik is, on technicality, a version of Zelda and that gets held against them IMO quite unfairly sometimes. They really aren't at all alike in any way that counts. Anyway, I think Sheik sticks around because if there is such a strong desire for more Zelda content it would feel counterintuitive to essentially shave it down to the basics.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I just think if there was ever a time to consider cutting Sheik it would've been in Smash 4 when transformations were discovered to not be feasible and Squirtle and Ivysaur were already out the door lol

I really don't think Sheik is going anywhere, and as for the Ice Climbers, let's not forget the team wanted an NES character and they were up against Excitebiker, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, and Urban Champion, but the others failed in certain aspects to become playable, while the Ice Climbers had a unique gameplay hook the team wanted to work with: their tag-team gameplay, since the original game allowed simultaneous co-op instead of just taking turns.

I get that they're not in the big leagues like everyone else, but they weren't chosen for that reason. Don't forget, the team specifically wanted an NES character and Ice Climber came out in 1985, so they'd already been a one-shot with no sequel in sight for 15 years when they were selected, they just had a gameplay hook none of the other candidates could do while not having issues with initial feasibility.

 

[Louie G.]

As for Ice Climbers, maybe a bit basic, but I honestly just think they're safe for the immediate future on behalf of Everyone is Here lol.

The next game isn't gonna come out and cut every missing character who returned with such fanfare in Ultimate. They're just not. I'm not saying all of them will come back, like I'm not holding my breath for Pichu or Young Link again, but I think it would feel a little bit cheap if they all got wiped out a second time or it just came down to one. Yes, the data was selective since there were a pretty small number of characters cut as is, but I do think the vocal support for a few of these fighters will help keep them afloat.

Ice Climbers is probably one of the biggest no-brainers of the bunch. Unique moveset gimmick, a strong legacy within the series (the only fighter to be cut after two consecutive appearances... so far, of course), would have come back for Smash 4 anyway if they were technically feasible. Despite being from such an oddball game, and not being a particularly popular character to play on behalf of their specialized moveset, I think everything I just laid out holds enough weight to be more confident than not in their return. The aforementioned EIH point is why I'm pretty sure they'll try to bring the whole Pokemon Trainer team back too.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Ice Climbers is probably one of the biggest no-brainers of the bunch. Unique moveset gimmick, a strong legacy within the series (the only fighter to be cut after two consecutive appearances... so far, of course), would have come back for Smash 4 anyway if they were technically feasible. Despite being from such an oddball game, and not being a particularly popular character to play on behalf of their specialized moveset, I think everything I just laid out holds enough weight to be more confident than not in their return. The aforementioned EIH point is why I'm pretty sure they'll try to bring the whole Pokemon Trainer team back too.

Now that I think about it, it's kinda funny, but I think Ice Climbers and Incineroar are kind of in the same boat.

Both characters that maybe aren't the most popular or long-standing choice, but one that had a unique gameplay hook that Sakurai and his team were interested in doing.

I don't think it makes them equally likely since Incineroar has a lot more competition in his corner with all the Pokemon, but it's a kinda funny observation I just had lol

 

[dream1ng]

Says who?

I think they'd need to absolutely gut the roster to get to the point where Sheik is in danger.

imo all they'd have to do is cut more than one Zelda character

So whatever roster size it'd be where cutting a second Zelda character seem realistic is where I think Sheik is in danger

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I really don’t care for Shiek, the main draw of her character initially was that she had a unique transformation gimmick and a ninja inspired moveset. Now she no longer transforms, and we have another fighter who I personally feel represents the ninja archetype better in Greninja.

This on top of the fact that she has only been in 2 Zelda games, one where she doesn’t do anything interesting, and the other a non canon spin off, yeah I’d really would prefer if she didn’t come back. That said I don’t expect any character with perfect attendance since Melee to be cut at this point.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

imo all they'd have to do is cut more than one Zelda character

So whatever roster size it'd be where cutting a second Zelda character seem realistic is where I think Sheik is in danger

Do you think one of the small Links is more likely than Sheik? Cause I'd personally say they'd have to cut three Zelda characters to get to Sheik.

 

[dream1ng]

Do you think one of the small Links is more likely than Sheik? Cause I'd personally say they'd have to cut three Zelda characters to get to Sheik.

I think it's likelier we get two Links without Sheik than one Link and Sheik, yeah. In theory both small Links could be cut and they add a new small Link, like Toy Link. But just some second Link, yeah, I think that's likelier.

I know that's not the priority in which they were first added, but I think a second Link is just a bigger part of that series to the extent it helps his priority, and a longstanding enough facet of Smash that I don't think they're going to go from three to one.

It's possible it goes the other way, I'm not gonna say it couldn't happen, but after the first small Link I certainly wouldn't be confident enough to omit her as a plausible option for next from the series in line to get the boot.

 

[Louie G.]

I feel like a character like Sheik has the capacity to be a bit of a floater, a character whose value isn't really measured in proximity to their series but just what they offer on the whole. I think we may have a tendency to gloss over this kind of thing in favor of measuring out series representation on means of popularity or importance. If Sakurai deems Sheik to be as archetypically defining as I speculate he might, then I don't know if it's necessarily a matter of drawing straws for Zelda slots as much as it is what the character is offering individually. Same for like, Rosalina or Incineroar for example.

Toon Link, on the other hand, is pretty much judged exclusively in the context of his series. The incentive of having a smaller / younger Link is brought about specifically because we already have one version of Link representing a different branch in the series. So I find these two to be almost polar opposite in what would motivate Sakurai to add them to the roster. I think Sheik is a bit more likely for that standalone value, but I see no reason why they can't both make it anyway. Zelda is bigger than ever post-Switch era and people are hungry for more content from the series in Smash.

 

[SPEN18]

Well, if you count 'em up, I for one would say it's pretty easy to name 40+, even 50+ first party vets that could feasibly be ranked higher than Sheik. As was said above, Sheik is on the table to be cut as soon as cutting a more unique Zelda character is on the table, and even Ganondorf aside there's an argument for keeping one of the clones over Sheik. But, really, it's not so much her role within the Zelda roster itself as much as it is that Sheik, considered independently, is simply a very odd duck all things considered: both in the context of being an offshoot of an arguably failed transformation mechanic and in holding a somewhat awkward and now-defunct position within the Zelda franchise itself. It's a character that gets by pretty much exclusively on Melee cred and prior competitive relevance within the community, somewhat also on the promise of being a more straight "ninja" character, but struggles to escape the sense that this character may as well have been a nondescript Smash OC past Melee.

 

[Idon]

Yall got me ****ed up thinking any of the Linklings are even remotely close to Sheik.

I think you all need to understand that Sheik has significantly transcended her origin in Ocarina of Time as a random exposition plot device and her introduction as a transformation gimmick in Melee. Being real, outside the Zelda reveal, she really isn't important and were it not for Smash Bros, she wouldn't even be a character people mention because honestly she really isn't one, especially compared to the stars of OoT and WW. But in Smash? The game where she has more appearances than either the side Links?

In Smash, she is THE ninja character, both in terms of gameplay function and aesthetic even in the face of characters that have similar appeals like Joker and Greninja. Not only does she form the mechanical foundation for the entire archetype, she is still to this day a wholly unique high-execution playstyle character that they still haven't even come close to replicating in any future characters.
This compared to Floatier Link and Combo'er Link.

So no, I don't think she's on the short-list of potential cuts, now or ever.
In fact, I'll go as far as to say she's probably one of the first characters put in the design docs for smash and serves as a baseline how they design system mechanics around these foundational characters.