Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CannonStreak]

I’d personally much rather him use the polygonal look since it would just stand out a lot more - I find Akira to look a bit unremarkable otherwise, and I like the idea of a low poly fighter. But I recognize that the series is being revitalized right now, and it would make a lot less sense than before to go for the “retro” look as the default when he’ll have a brand new appearance to take inspiration from which Sega would probably like to market over framing the character as a sort of throwback.

But with luck it would still be an alternate costume, knowing Sakurai I’d be shocked if he didn’t go for that.

You know, I am wanting a low-poly look for Akira, too. I am rather into seeing a look like that for Akira.

 

[Gengar84]

I’d personally much rather him use the polygonal look since it would just stand out a lot more - I find Akira to look a bit unremarkable otherwise, and I like the idea of a low poly fighter. But I recognize that the series is being revitalized right now, and it would make a lot less sense than before to go for the “retro” look as the default when he’ll have a brand new appearance to take inspiration from which Sega would probably like to market over framing the character as a sort of throwback.

But with luck it would still be an alternate costume, knowing Sakurai I’d be shocked if he didn’t go for that.

Same here. His polygonal look is what I think of first whenever anyone brings up Virtua Fighter. Otherwise, he looks a bit too visually similar to Ryu in my opinion.

 

[Perkilator]

I am all for Akira getting into Smash as a playable. Still…

Would you all rather have his polygon look he has as an Assist Trophy in Ultimate or a more detailed look?

Akira has a brand new outfit in Virtua Fighter 6. If he ever got in, then I think his costumes should be split between the VF6 design and his classic polygonal look.

 

[dezeray112]

Akira has a brand new outfit in Virtua Fighter 6. If he ever got in, then I think his costumes should be split between the VF6 design and his classic polygonal look.

Initially, I really thought that the female character was Sarah Bryant, but it is interesting that Stella almost resembles her.

Other than that and speaking of Akira, I could see him getting his new outfit from VF6 as his main default and I could see his polygonal look acting as one of his alt costumes.

 

[Stratos]

If I had to recommend another SNK character as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series, I would suggest Kyo Kusanagi, because in my opinion he is as famous as Terry Bogard.

 

[Golden Icarus]

As many of you have commented, I think the most likely ones are Noah/Mio and the Octolings/Agent 8, and at this point I would also add Oatchi and the character from Ring Fit Adventure.
As @Thegameandwatch has commented, RFA has sold VERY well, and even has a theme on Alarmo.

On the other hand, since we are back on the subject of characters guaranteed for the next Smash, at the last shareholders meeting, Nintendo shared a graphic about some of the franchaise that had grown the most in the Switch era, where Metroid, Xenoblade, Kirby and Pikmin stood out.

Spoiler: Nintendo franchaise

View attachment 397391

It's obvious that they're going to support these franchises in the coming years, including Smash. Not to mention the absurdly large growth that Animal Crossing has had, so I'd say that Tom Nook has a much better chance than we give him credit for - in fact, he's even on the cover of Nintendo Music alongside Isabelle. With that said, I think Bandana Dee and Raven Beak would also be in that select group of guaranteed ones, maybe at 95% but I would find it very strange if we didn't see them.

On the subject of Elma, I don't think she can compete with Noah/Mio BUT if Xeno X is going to have more installments I wouldn't see it strange if she was one of the first DLC characters to arrive.

I mostly agree with your list of front runners, but you also mentioned 7 characters. That's a lot of characters to guarantee when the next game could have as few as 10 newcomers and still want to make room for popular requests, retro characters, unexpected characters with novel moveset ideas, third party characters, etc.

Things looked amazing for Captain Toad leading into Ultimate, yet he still failed to make the cut and it's hard to view Tom Nook or Oatchi as being that much more obvious than Toad was back then. Elma looked like a great contender for Ultimate, yet just wasn't prioritized and who's to say Xenoblade 3 won't have the same fate. Xeno 3 was way more successful, but everything was successful on the Switch, so it's hard to say that it stands out as much as people are saying.

Not to mention Waluigi, Geno and Isaac look really good after how heavily Ultimate leaned into fan requests, but I'll never forget that Ridley and K. Rool somehow missed out on Smash 4, so I still take their chances with a grain of salt.

It's pretty easy to come up with a solid list of 10 or so characters that stand out far ahead of the crowd and the community has pretty unanimously identified who those characters ought to be, which I believe makes it extra important to prepare for Sakurai to just go bananas next game. We'll probably get the mandatory Octoling, maybe at least one big fan request like Waluigi and some "new hotness" like Oatchi, but from there maybe he'll revisit Excite Biker and Ayumi. Dragaux could get chosen for Ring Fit simply on appearance alone. Funky brings a surfboard, which is unlike any weapon in Smash. The Bandana Dee fanbase is loud, but anything new from Kirby would be nice and Marx is a Sakurai original that could do all sorts of cool things. It probably is high time for a new Zelda character, but maybe he actively chooses someone shocking like Groose or Hestu. And from there who knows how many slots will be dedicated to third parties - you can imagine developers are blowing up Sakurai's phone after Ultimate.

There are certainly some big names I really want to see added next game, but I have a hard time believing that any of these are characters Nintendo will absolutely require Sakurai to add. The stand out faces of the Switch era were Mario, Link, Isabelle, Pikachu, Kirby, Samus...I'm just saying if there was ever a time for Sakurai to go full MvC and just add whatever **** he thinks would be cool, now is probably that time.

If I had to recommend another SNK character as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series, I would suggest Kyo Kusanagi, because in my opinion he is as famous as Terry Bogard.

If only SNK agreed with you...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Same. It's one thing if they're just a cheap clone, but a full unique character that's just a pre-existing one is lame af. If they add a Paper Mario character, I hope Sakurai pulls a Min-Min. Mario again as our first Mario RPG rep =.

I think in that case you just straight up don't want a Paper Mario character since there really isn't a character for them to add that isn't Paper Mario. It's pretty much just the partners, pixels, original villains, Kirsty, Huey, and Olivia, all of which are one-offs, and most of which have a very limited ability to fight in an action context due to being drawn at a fixed angle, and lacking limbs. Honestly, even Paper Mario would be difficult to get working since he too is drawn at a fixed angle, though he at least is a bit more flexible.

Mario & Luigi doesn't fare much better. I think Fawful's the only reasonable add and they're probably not going to do that either. Although, in the case of Mario & Luigi and Super Mario RPG, I don't think Min Min's deal is applicable since the protagonists of those games literally are the Mario and friends we have in Smash. Paper Mario is the exception, being a version of the cast with a radically different art style and physics.

 

[Louie G.]

re: Paper Mario, to be honest with you I don't see the problem there. I think Mario and Paper Mario are distinct enough entities to stand as their own unique characters, with unique appeal. I could understand giving it the side eye if Dr. Mario returned, but otherwise I don't really even see these two as the same character in the first place.

Having this blank eyed, cutesy Mario who can fold like paper, uses a hammer and utilizes timed RPG-inspired attacks takes on a completely different appeal from the main guy. Like sure, if we added Vivian or whatever I guess it'd be cool? But there's no single Paper Mario character or partner with the spread of abilities and moveset potential that Mario himself has, and you probably just wouldn't bother to add anyone from that series at all if you couldn't tap into that.

Or you'd just go ahead and add Geno at that point, lol.

Things looked amazing for Captain Toad leading into Ultimate, yet he still failed to make the cut and it's hard to view Tom Nook or Oatchi as being that much more obvious than Toad was back then.

I don't quite agree with this comparison, mainly just because Ultimate had only six new slots available preserved for ballot winners, the two biggest new characters from the previous era, and an obligatory Pokemon. What would Ultimate's roster look like if we had a "normal" amount of new faces at launch? It's very possible that lineup would include Captain Toad, but we'll never really know under such special conditions.

It does suck that this was easily the best position Toad had ever been in and the circumstances just sorta screwed him. There's always next time but you do have to wonder if the Captain moniker is as notable as it was nearly a decade ago now. There's a reason the Toad comparison is so dreaded in speculation because this is simply a cursed character who I think represents the most unique case of roster snubbing there is (has been an equally viable choice for 25 years).

I do agree with the sentiment that those two aren't 100% guaranteed locks, though. I just wouldn't be so quick to put them in this category.

 

[Gengar84]

I admit is more of a personal thing with Paper Mario for me. He’s definitely got a ton of mechanical potential for a really fun and creative moveset completely separate from the current Mario in Smash. My hangup is that even with all that, he’s still Mario. So he’s a combination of two things I have a hard time personally getting excited for: He’s a third version of a character we already have, unique moveset or not, and he’s a mostly silent protagonist. I do agree that his partners don’t have a ton to work with as far as moveset goes. That’s why I don’t advocate for Goombella more than I currently do. I love her character but the moveset is pretty uninspiring. There’s nothing wrong with wanting Paper Mario if your values are different from my own, that’s just how I feel.

 

[CannonStreak]

I admit is more of a personal thing with Paper Mario for me. He’s definitely got a ton of mechanical potential for a really fun and creative moveset completely separate from the current Mario in Smash. My hangup is that even with all that, he’s still Mario. So he’s a combination of two things I have a hard time personally getting excited for: He’s a third version of a character we already have, unique moveset or not, and he’s a mostly silent protagonist. I do agree that his partners don’t have a ton to work with as far as moveset goes. That’s why I don’t advocate for Goombella more than I currently do. I love her character but the moveset is pretty uninspiring. There’s nothing wrong with wanting Paper Mario if your values are different from my own, that’s just how I feel.

I can see that, the whole him being Mario thing. That is why I think he would have less appeal and be less cheered on if he were revealed as a playable character compared to other Mario RPG characters like Geno, Mallow and even Fawful, you know what I mean. I would not mind Paper Mario honestly, though.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I don't quite agree with this comparison, mainly just because Ultimate had only six new slots available preserved for ballot winners, the two biggest new characters from the previous era, and an obligatory Pokemon. What would Ultimate's roster look like if we had a "normal" amount of new faces at launch? It's very possible that lineup would include Captain Toad, but we'll never really know under such special conditions.

It does suck that this was easily the best position Toad had ever been in and the circumstances just sorta screwed him. There's always next time but you do have to wonder if the Captain moniker is as notable as it was nearly a decade ago now. There's a reason the Toad comparison is so dreaded in speculation because this is simply a cursed character who I think represents the most unique case of roster snubbing there is (has been an equally viable choice for 25 years).

I do agree with the sentiment that those two aren't 100% guaranteed locks, though. I just wouldn't be so quick to put them in this category.

At the very least I imagine it's uncontroversial to say the Captain was right behind Inkling and Isabelle in the "big new faces" category, yet they still chose to prioritize Piranha Plant. I know that comparison also has an asterisk because Plant was a deliberate surprise character, but they omitted the usual retro character for Ultimate and that sort of prioritization at the very least shows that Toad (and other next in-liners like Bandana Dee and Elma) were never mandatory.

The broad point I'm getting at is that we really don't know if the next game will have a similarly small number of first party newcomers due to third party slots, redesigned veterans, or something else and individually I don't see how the partner character from Pikmin 4 would be any more mandatory than a household name who was also the face of the 15th best selling Wii U game.

As you said, Toad is just a uniquely cursed character, but his story is why I think it's important to distinguish characters who stand out vs. characters who are actually guaranteed. What are the characters that Sakurai and Nintendo will make sure are in the next game regardless of newcomer count and which characters are front runners who still rely on a decent number of available character slots and could still be vetoed by Sakurai if he doesn't see their potential. Tom Nook, Oatchi, Bandana Dee and pretty much every character other than Octoling lean more closely to the second group in my opinion.

Edit: I agree with the Captain moniker feeling way less significant now than it used to. The Mario movie especially makes me feel like the generic Toad is back to being the “main one.” Which honestly, I’m kind of relieved about because that was always the one I hoped would get into Smash. Fingers crossed (again…for like the 4th time).

 

[Louie G.]

At the very least I imagine it's uncontroversial to say the Captain was right next to Inkling and Isabelle in the "big new faces" category, yet they still chose to prioritize Piranha Plant. I know that comparison also has an asterisk because Plant was a deliberate surprise character, but they omitted the usual retro character for Ultimate and that sort of prioritization at the very least shows that Toad (and other next in-liners like Bandana Dee and Elma) were never mandatory.

I'm sorry to split hairs, but I actually do think that's a very controversial thing to say. The "15th best selling Wii U game" (emphasis on Wii U game... this is like, barely scratching 2 million) and seventh original Mario character isn't really holding the same weight as the star of Nintendo's greatest IP success in over a decade () and its breakout star mascot hailing from a starkly growing series () who has only aged better and better with time. Isabelle and Inkling have went on to stand next to Mario and Link as company mascots, a brand transition that I'm sure was already well underway by the time Ultimate released. Nintendo seemingly had no such big plans for Captain Toad, whose game was a moderate success and faded back into easter egg territory soon after.

And "retro character" is unfortunately not a real character category that Sakurai deliberately makes space for - I actually wish it was, but that's neither here nor there. "Surprise character" is a designation though, and as you acknowledged Piranha Plant was added under that condition. Which is why I don't particularly like to judge it up against any specific character. Again, I generally agree with the point you're making. But I think you're hedging it on a character who was not as glaringly obvious as you're making him out to be, honestly.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd (probably?) be pretty happy with Paper Mario personally, my only hang up would be with what game(s) they try to base him on.

Full bias here but anything from Sticker Star onward does not appeal to me. That and my hopes for how he'd play are pretty specific.

For anyone interested:

Spoiler

He'd be accompanied by a bunch of the partner characters with one being out at all times like in the games. Side Special cycles partners. Neutral and Down Special are determined by the active partner. Up Special is Parakarry who would be separate from the partner rotation and always accessible.

Partner rotation could be something like: Goombella, Koops, Vivian, Bobbery, Yoshi, Watt, Sushie and Lady Bow. Half of Paper Mario's costumes would swap in Goombario, Kooper and Bombette over Goombella, Koops and Admiral Bobbery.

Partners would have HP and could be KO'd. HP is restored between stocks.

They don't move independently and are essentially tethered to PM like in the games. The active partner takes damage alongside PM.

Regular attacks, Smash attacks and throws use his hammer, stomps, and some incorporate the Pixls. Thoreau is his grab for example, Thudley appears for Down Air which would be a ground pound. Dashell appears when dashing and Barry appears when shielding.

 

[superprincess]

RE: (Captain) Toad

Toad barely has any chances, and Captain Toad is in an even worse position. I could see the default Toad faring a little better if Sakurai isn't directing (which, frankly, just isn't happening) but Captain Toad is pretty much dead in the water lol. It's 2025, not 2014. A blend of the two "characters" is Captain Toad's best bet at this point.

I say this as somebody who wanted Toad in Smash for the longest time, and still kinda want Toadette. We all have pipe dream characters, but there comes a time where we must admit they're just that, pipe dreams.

RE: Paper Mario

It's a popular sub-series for sure, but I can't imagine anyone who's not a diehard fan caring about his inclusion. And this isn't a Toon Link situation either because this guy would require a full design with no reused assets. But the moveset potential his fans often present leaves me unimpressed anyway. The partners thing is just boring and sloppy to me; fan movesets always seem hellbent on abusing the idea of "they summon X character from their game to do an attack". The best idea for Paper Mario is to actually design him like a paper version of Mario, doing stuff like folding into a paper plane for his Up B, a paper boat for his swimming animation, and crumpling up into a ball for his dodges. You could do fun stuff with that.

 

[Gengar84]

I define “retro character” as a character who hit their peak popularity in games a long time ago. They could still get smaller more niche games today but their games are no longer mainstream. By that definition, I would say that Simon Belmont is a retro character. The CastleVania anime has been pretty successful but there hasn’t been a huge game release in a very long time. So, if Simon is retro, every Smash game has had at least one retro newcomer in the base game.

 

[CannonStreak]

I define “retro character” as a character who hit their peak popularity in games a long time ago. They could still get smaller more niche games today but their games are no longer mainstream. By that definition, I would say that Simon Belmont is a retro character. The CastleVania anime has been pretty successful but there hasn’t been a huge game release in a very long time. So, if Simon is retro, every Smash game has had at least one retro newcomer in the base game.

I am guessing that despite being from a still around series that had more games after its debut, Simon, if he was not used in any games other than the NES ones, could be creator character, since other Belmonts take his place as the main playable character in later games. I don’t imagine Simon having much or any big role since the NES days if I recall.

This is just a guess though, so don’t quote me on that, but my point is that I think game series can have retro characters.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If I had to recommend another SNK character as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series, I would suggest Kyo Kusanagi, because in my opinion he is as famous as Terry Bogard.

I'd rather a Metal Slug character.

I love that series.

 

[CannonStreak]

I'd rather a Metal Slug character.

I love that series.

Oh, I want a Metal Slug character too! That series is so underrated compared to some of SNK’s other franchises!

 

[RileyXY1]

What I consider a "retro rep" is based on a formula. The difference between Melee's release year (2001) and the release year of Ice Climber on the NES (1984) is 17 years. I consider a character to be a "retro rep" if their last major game appearance (outside of cameos, remakes, or rereleases) is equal or greater than the difference between the release years of Melee and Ice Climber. The Ice Climbers are notably the only "true" retro rep according to Sakurai, so that's why I used them.

 

[Gengar84]

RE: (Captain) Toad

Toad barely has any chances, and Captain Toad is in an even worse position. I could see the default Toad faring a little better if Sakurai isn't directing (which, frankly, just isn't happening) but Captain Toad is pretty much dead in the water lol. It's 2025, not 2014. A blend of the two "characters" is Captain Toad's best bet at this point.

I say this as somebody who wanted Toad in Smash for the longest time, and still kinda want Toadette. We all have pipe dream characters, but there comes a time where we must admit they're just that, pipe dreams.

RE: Paper Mario

It's a popular sub-series for sure, but I can't imagine anyone who's not a diehard fan caring about his inclusion. And this isn't a Toon Link situation either because this guy would require a full design with no reused assets. But the moveset potential his fans often present leaves me unimpressed anyway. The partners thing is just boring and sloppy to me; fan movesets always seem hellbent on abusing the idea of "they summon X character from their game to do an attack". The best idea for Paper Mario is to actually design him like a paper version of Mario, doing stuff like folding into a paper plane for his Up B, a paper boat for his swimming animation, and crumpling up into a ball for his dodges. You could do fun stuff with that.

I think the summon idea can actually work really well if it’s something specific to their game or character. Yuna, for example, is primarily known for being a summoner so it would be really weird if she didn’t have a moveset like this. Sarah Kerrigan would serve as the face of the RTS genre so allowing her to use resources to summon Zerg units would be fitting for both her character and as a mechanical representation of her genre. Then there’s Crono, who would likely want to incorporate Chrono Trigger’s dual techs since that was one of the first team attack systems in RPGs.

This one’s more subjective but the animal buddies were a huge part of what made the DKC games special to me and was one of the earliest examples of multiple rideable creatures in a platformer I can think of. The only ones before it I can remember are Super Mario World and one of the Adventure Island sequels. Dixie doesn’t really need the buddies to be interesting but I feel like they’re a valid option. I agree it doesn’t necessarily work for every character but that doesn’t mean the idea is automatically bad either.

 

[Louie G.]

The best idea for Paper Mario is to actually design him like a paper version of Mario, doing stuff like folding into a paper plane for his Up B, a paper boat for his swimming animation, and crumpling up into a ball for his dodges. You could do fun stuff with that.

This is the funny part about it to me because this is clearly the main draw, and probably why Sakurai would be interested in pursuing the character at all, but the very premise of Paper Mario actually being based around paper will alienate his most dedicated supporters.

I'd ultimately be fine with him either way, but taking a premise with such potential to be one of the most visually interesting characters on the roster and then doing nothing with it would be pretty disappointing. It's arguably the scenario that most actively demands that Paper Mario's most superficial gimmick is put on display, since Smash tends to try and exaggerate these unique traits for effect anyway, but then half the community would cry mischaracterization.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I'm sorry to split hairs, but I actually do think that's a very controversial thing to say. The "15th best selling Wii U game" (emphasis on Wii U game... this is like, barely scratching 2 million) and seventh original Mario character isn't really holding the same weight as the star of Nintendo's greatest IP success in over a decade () and its breakout star mascot hailing from a starkly growing series () who has only aged better and better with time. Isabelle and Inkling have went on to stand next to Mario and Link as company mascots, a brand transition that I'm sure was already well underway by the time Ultimate released. Nintendo seemingly had no such big plans for Captain Toad, whose game was a moderate success and faded back into easter egg territory soon after.

Perhaps I didn’t phrase the point perfectly. Toad wasn’t up there with the other two, but distinctly just far enough behind them that they were able to draw a line. Inkling and Isabelle were significant to a degree that if Sakurai had a project plan for Ultimate that had as few as six newcomers, yet didn’t include either one of them, then we can picture Nintendo stepping in to say “no this has to be here,” which clearly wasn’t a luxury that Toad had.

And we can dog on the seventh most iconic Mario character all day, but if Toad can forever be relegated to hiding under Peach’s dress, then I don’t see why the dog from Pikmin, or the landlord from Animal Crossing would absolutely necessitate anything more than an assist trophy, or a final smash appearance.

I don’t mind splitting hairs, in fact I love it. This whole conversation is just identifying the difference between what is certain and what is highly probable and I think it’s pretty easy to place Octoling and only Octoling in the Inkling/Isabelle category. The other characters look very good, but still need some amount of things to go right if they want to be included.

 

[BuckleyTim]

He does do paper airplane/boat mode in ttyd (it's characterized in-game as dreadful curses l, which I always found pretty fun way to incorporate it into the storybook world).

I think a happy medium can be found where the partner-centric gameplay can be combined with faithful visual flourish and reference (like the thousand-fold arms as a tether grab maybe?). Do I expect it to happen?... Uh, I'm not confident enough to say that TOK wouldn't be the primary influence until I see it, though.

 

[superprincess]

At the end of the day, we don't have to ponder much on it. The superior Mario RPG rep is clearly Baby Mario & Baby Luigi, primarily taking inspiration from Partners in Time and the rest of the M&L games Bros. Attacks.

He does do paper airplane/boat mode in ttyd (it's characterized in-game as dreadful curses l, which I always found pretty fun way to incorporate it into the storybook world).

I think a happy medium can be found where the partner-centric gameplay can be combined with faithful visual flourish and reference (like the thousand-fold arms as a tether grab maybe?). Do I expect it to happen?... Uh, I'm not confident enough to say that TOK wouldn't be the primary influence until I see it, though.

Summon-heavy moveset ideas are just boring. For example, Byleth whacking you with Aymr is a hundred times more fun than a battalion poofing out of thin air to attack the opponent. Bowser's Flying Slam feels so much more natural than him calling on a bunch of Goombas to do his bidding. Summoning is just slow, clunky and counter intuitive when not done right, and fans do not do it right.

The 1000-fold arms idea is fun though. A version of Mario with a tether grab does sound interesting.

 

[ninjahmos]

I think Akira having his low-poly design (hopefully using both his designs from Virtua Fighter 1&2) and his new look from the upcoming Virtua Fighter 6 would be pretty cool too.

 

[RileyXY1]

It would make sense for Akira to use the classic polygonal design because Virtua Fighter was the game that popularized 3D polygonal gaming. Seeing footage of Virtua Fighter was what made Sony go on board with making the OG PlayStation a 3D console and it paved the way for the 3D fighting game genre to exist.

 

[Louie G.]

And we can dog on the seventh most iconic Mario character all day, but if Toad can forever be relegated to hiding under Peach’s dress, then I don’t see why the dog from Pikmin, or the landlord from Animal Crossing would absolutely necessitate anything more than an assist trophy, or a final smash appearance.

Fair enough, although I think "the landlord from Animal Crossing" is underselling Nook's overall significance. As it stands I think Animal Crossing joined the series at an inopportune time for him and post New Horizons he's finally back up to co-mascot status with Isabelle. While Toad can always be handwaved away with the stance that he isn't a defined singular character, Nook is kind of impossible to ignore as a standalone character and perhaps the single most influential force in the whole Animal Crossing series. So I think for now that's a leg up that Nook has for himself, within a series that has only had a couple games to built its cast in Smash so far anyway. Probably best to consider Smash 6 its "Brawl" equivalent.

What these two may ultimately have in common is if Sakurai doesn't see the inspiration for a Tom Nook moveset, he will find another way to represent him (which already exists anyway, via Final Smash). I think his upwards mobility is likely but with a series like Animal Crossing that already has to stretch itself for fighters I could understand why it would end up that way. I think all this time after Villager, and using Nook's unique qualities he could easily be unique but that's up for Sakurai to decide.

With Oatchi, I think the situation is more questionable since Pikmin 4 is his first and only appearance thus far. Smash has felt less hesitant to take chances on characters like this as of late, so I don't think that's a death knell but Olimar does a solid enough job representing the "essence" of Pikmin on his own and there's a pretty solid chance that will be enough. Although if you want my personal speculation, I think Pikmin 4 may have released at the perfect time for consideration.

 

[Gengar84]

At the end of the day, we don't have to ponder much on it. The superior Mario RPG rep is clearly Baby Mario & Baby Luigi, primarily taking inspiration from Partners in Time and the rest of the M&L games Bros. Attacks.


Summon-heavy moveset ideas are just boring. For example, Byleth whacking you with Aymr is a hundred times more fun than a battalion poofing out of thin air to attack the opponent. Bowser's Flying Slam feels so much more natural than him calling on a bunch of Goombas to do his bidding. Summoning is just slow, clunky and counter intuitive when not done right, and fans do not do it right.

The 1000-fold arms idea is fun though. A version of Mario with a tether grab does sound interesting.

I disagree, but again, it depends on the context. If the summoning makes sense for the character or game, it could be really fun. Like transform duos you don’t want to overdue it but I think they’re a great potential way to make some characters feel exciting to play. Of course, you’re not just going to give any random JRPG protagonist the ability to summon his partners for attacks but as long as it’s done sparingly for characters where it makes the most sense, I’m interested. This is entirely subjective though so if you’re not a fan of the idea, that’s cool but not everyone shares the same opinion.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Summon-heavy moveset ideas are just boring. For example, Byleth whacking you with Aymr is a hundred times more fun than a battalion poofing out of thin air to attack the opponent. Bowser's Flying Slam feels so much more natural than him calling on a bunch of Goombas to do his bidding. Summoning is just slow, clunky and counter intuitive when not done right, and fans do not do it right.

I don't think I'm explaining myself as well as I should.

In my idealized Holistic Paper Mario moveset, The partners wouldn't be performing animations for random moves. Rather, paper Mario would have a full set of normals. The partner(s) would be right behind Mario at all times (like in the game's combat), following him kinda like Nana follows Popo. Then you'd use them for specials and swap them out with down+b. They'd be ko-able, too, so you could take out Mario's "options" per stock with proper counterplay. This would function very much like how combat is done in pm64/ttyd.

I realize this sounds like a lot to implement, but if Kazuya and Hero can exist, why not go that hard for PM and co?

 

[superprincess]

I disagree, but again, it depends on the context. If the summoning makes sense for the character or game, it could be really fun. Like transform duos you don’t want to overdue it but I think they’re a great potential way to make some characters feel exciting to play. Of course, you’re not just going to give any random JRPG protagonist the ability to summon his partners for attacks but as long as it’s done sparingly for characters where it makes the most sense, I’m interested. This is entirely subjective though so if you’re not a fan of the idea, that’s cool but not everyone shares the same opinion.

Let's not forget it also has to make sense for the visual language of the character, and most of the time, it just doesn't. It makes things too cluttered and doesn't get across the point of the move (in most concepts I've seen anyway), which is really bad from a gameplay perspective. Summoning is just a way for the more... uh, invested side of the consumer base to satiate their need for "referencereference".

Of course, there's ways to make it work. Paula showing up for Ness' Final Smash is a cute cameo. Her popping in to perform PK Fire for him would not be cute, it'd be forced, look bad, and seem confusing.

 

[Gengar84]

Let's not forget it also has to make sense for the visual language of the character, and most of the time, it just doesn't. It makes things too cluttered and doesn't get across the point of the move (in most concepts I've seen anyway), which is really bad from a gameplay perspective. Summoning is just a way for the more... uh, invested side of the consumer base to satiate their need for "referencereference".

Of course, there's ways to make it work. Paula showing up for Ness' Final Smash is a cute cameo. Her popping in to perform PK Fire for him would not be cute, it'd be forced, look bad, and seem confusing.

Yeah, like I said, it would require some effort to make it feel cohesive but I don’t think that’s impossible. King Dedede, Peach, Bowser Jr., Rosalina, Pac Man, Mega Man and Joker have all made it work for them.

 

[Perkilator]

I think I like Delzethin’s interpretation of Paper Mario the best: something that borrows from across the Paper Mario series for a cohesive and unique fighting style.

 

[Golden Icarus]

RE: (Captain) Toad

Toad barely has any chances, and Captain Toad is in an even worse position. I could see the default Toad faring a little better if Sakurai isn't directing (which, frankly, just isn't happening) but Captain Toad is pretty much dead in the water lol. It's 2025, not 2014. A blend of the two "characters" is Captain Toad's best bet at this point.

I say this as somebody who wanted Toad in Smash for the longest time, and still kinda want Toadette. We all have pipe dream characters, but there comes a time where we must admit they're just that, pipe dreams.

The amount of doomer-ism around Toad is kind of wild. Pipe dream? Dead in the water? It reminds me of how Ridley was discussed before Ultimate. Like yeah Sakurai rejected him multiple times in the past, but it’s still the main villain of Metroid and one of the most popular fan requests ever. Surely he’s still gonna be in consideration.

Like damn Toad is still appearing in everything all the time and consistently performs well on fan polls. I didn’t realize he already had his “now or never” moment. He isn’t even “too big” or anything. He’s just relatively low on “sauce,” as Smashboards would say.

I feel like he’s sitting decently around a 50% chance for next game and I might even be compelled to bet on him, but I understand that most people aren’t counting on the house fly that’s been banging its head against the window for over two decades. But man…it’s Toad. Surely I’m not alone in still feeling some amount of optimism.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Yeah, like I said, it would require some effort to make it feel cohesive but I don’t think that’s impossible. King Dedede, Peach, Bowser Jr., Rosalina, Pac Man, Mega Man and Joker have all made it work for them.

I'll be real, man, this thread is filled with toad supporters; Putting Peach whipping toad out from under her skirt is not gonna help your case with them

 

[superprincess]

Yeah, like I said, it would require some effort to make it feel cohesive but I don’t think that’s impossible. King Dedede, Peach, Bowser Jr., Rosalina and Mega Man have all made it work for them.

King Dedede: Gordo is pretty much a glorified projectile, not really another character being summoned. He's no different to Ptooie's spiked ball. What I'm getting at is, the design is simple enough not to be confusing.

Peach: Toad popping in and out of existence looks bad, so this isn't the best example. The counter move also undervalues both characters, most Peach fans would rather see her doing her own neutral special.

Bowser Jr.: Again, glorified projectile. The Mechakoopa comes out the Junior Clown Car in a similar fashion as a turnip coming out the ground for Peach's Down B. This isn't a whole character coming outta hammerspace, like most fans suggest.

Rosalina: Don't forget the character is "Rosalina & Luma". She doesn't summon Luma, it is blatanty one half of the moveset. And Luma's design is so simple it wouldn't look tacky even if it was summoned out of nowhere.

Mega Man: Rush is a glorified spring, no different from Sonic's. He also teleports with the same particle effect as Mega Man's entrance animation, which is a nice visual effect that makes sense in-universe too.

Joker: Arsene stands behind Joker and helps with every single move while he's present. He doesn't randomly pop in and out of existence to do one move.

 

[Gengar84]

I'll be real, man, this thread is filled with toad supporters; Putting Peach whipping toad out from under her skirt is not gonna help your case with them

I’d love Toad as a playable character too but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t also work well as part of Peach’s moveset.

Most of my suggestions are just “glorified x” as well. Most don’t involve the summon just walking around aimlessly like Dedede’s Waddle Dee did in Brawl (though that was a thing already too). Most just involve the character appearing to do a quick attack and disappearing or being used as a trap like Snake’s mines. The animal buddies, for example, wouldn’t really be any different than K. Rool summoning his copter for a recovery or Snake with his. If anything, a lot of them are most comparable to Bayonetta’s smash attacks but instead of disembodied limbs, it would be support characters.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Would Kohga count as a Sheikah? Because the Yiga are the anti-Sheikah, no?

I don't think he would.

The Yiga Clan may have split off from the Sheikah Tribe. But I think that happened long before Koga was born. So he himself was never a Sheikah.

Putting in another generic enemy would be about as well received as saying the same joke twice.

Good thing Sakurai wouldn't do that.

looks at Banjo trailer

Same. It's one thing if they're just a cheap clone, but a full unique character that's just a pre-existing one is lame af. If they add a Paper Mario character, I hope Sakurai pulls a Min-Min. Mario again as our first Mario RPG rep =.

It's Bobberin' time!

 

[superprincess]

The amount of doomer-ism around Toad is kind of wild. Pipe dream? Dead in the water? It reminds me of how Ridley was discussed before Ultimate. Like yeah Sakurai rejected him multiple times in the past, but it’s still the main villain of Metroid and one of the most popular fan requests ever. Surely he’s still gonna be in consideration.

Like damn Toad is still appearing in everything all the time and consistently performs well on fan polls. I didn’t realize he already had his “now or never” moment. He isn’t even “too big” or anything. He’s just relatively low on “sauce,” as Smashboards would say.

I feel like he’s sitting decently around a 50% chance for next game and I might even be compelled to bet on him, but I understand that most people aren’t counting on the house fly that’s been banging its head against the window for over two decades. But man…it’s Toad. Surely I’m not alone in still feeling some amount of optimism.

It's not doomer-ism, it's realism. Toad has missed his chance four times now. Three if you wanna be generous and not count Melee. Ridley had actual hurdles to overcome. Toad doesn't. He just isn't thought of as a fighter by the series director, that much is clear by now. And I know y'all will bring up Miis and Villager, but that was Sakurai changing his mind from one game to another. In a matter of what, 4 years? Toad has been reinforced as Peach's meatshield in Smash for almost 25 years now. Also, despite being a less popular character in the mainstream, Ridley had much more support than Toad does in the Smash sphere. Outside his rather tame fandom, nobody is really clamoring for Toad in Smash. Which is reminiscent of the kind of support Daisy got, a character who could eventually only find their way in as a clone.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The difference between Toad and Ridley is that Ridley's issues were on how he'd function due to his design and didn't go several years with a number of characters from Metroid being added instead of him while Toad's issues clearly stem from a lack of interest on Sakurai's part and has had a number of inclusions from the same franchise outprioritize him for one reason or another.


You can pull the "Well it will happen eventually" card, but like.....what's really stopping Toad from being excluded yet again while other Mario characters get added instead?
Sometimes you just have to read the writing on the wall.

 

[fogbadge]

The amount of doomer-ism around Toad is kind of wild. Pipe dream? Dead in the water? It reminds me of how Ridley was discussed before Ultimate. Like yeah Sakurai rejected him multiple times in the past, but it’s still the main villain of Metroid and one of the most popular fan requests ever. Surely he’s still gonna be in consideration.

Like damn Toad is still appearing in everything all the time and consistently performs well on fan polls. I didn’t realize he already had his “now or never” moment. He isn’t even “too big” or anything. He’s just relatively low on “sauce,” as Smashboards would say.

I feel like he’s sitting decently around a 50% chance for next game and I might even be compelled to bet on him, but I understand that most people aren’t counting on the house fly that’s been banging its head against the window for over two decades. But man…it’s Toad. Surely I’m not alone in still feeling some amount of optimism.

yeah it's very exhausting to listen to these doomers all the time. but they've never had anything new to say since the brawl days. and no matter how much moveset potential he gets it's still never enough for them