Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dezeray112]

If I had to recommend another SNK character as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series, I would suggest Kyo Kusanagi, because in my opinion he is as famous as Terry Bogard.

I'd probably opt for Rock Howard, Nakoruru or Mai Shiranui as my next SNK newcomer character.

 

[superprincess]

yeah it's very exhausting to listen to these doomers all the time. but they've never had anything new to say since the brawl days. and no matter how much moveset potential he gets it's still never enough for them

Oh please, no one is being a "doomer". We're just discussing a character's chances based on the only precedent we have. It's clear as day that nothing has prevented Toad but Sakurai's disinterest in the character.

Also, way to tell on your own fandom's insecurities, cause nobody mentioned moveset potential right now. I actually think Toad could be quite interesting, a tiny glass canon grappler is a compelling archetype—he could be like a mini Donkey Kong in a way. But if the shoe fits...

If I had to be a little optimistic, I'd say the movie does boost Toad's chances a little bit. He's a... mildly important character in it and is quite active. He also has a few comedic moments that probably boosted his popularity with kids. I could see Nintendo pitching Toad to Sakurai based on mainstream appeal alone. He just wouldn't make the choice himself lol.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m not familiar with many SNK characters but Haohmaru looks pretty cool and Smash could use a samurai fighter.

 

[Watuna4343]

Welcome! I feel similarly confident about Waluigi ... I think there’s just too many variables / competition here for Meowscarada to be the definitive pick.

For Gen 9 to even have a chance ... It is a possible option (if timing is right), but not the only option.

So, for Waluigi. I will be very honest, I don't consider him to have much competition outside of Toad despite what people say about Geno, King Boo, Paper Mario and the likes. It's because their arguments are just not compelling enough. Geno is a 1-time obscure character, King Boo is (at best) tertiary in terms of antagonists and Paper Mario is just Mario but Paper, like even if Waluigi is out of the equation, I don't see how or why Sakurai would lean into those characters. Toad I said I consider his 'main' competition but even then I am firmly of the opinion that if Toad was ever to be added he would've been in already. Now, one might say that the same argument can apply to Waluigi and yes that's true BUT, let's be real Toad is a much bigger character. A core part of the cast. If Sakurai included the rest of the core characters without Toad and then started filling in with the secondary main cast, I don't see him going back to Toad now specifically when he could've gone in 4 or Ultimate. So, it's probably an unpopular opinion? But I really don't think Waluigi has much of a competition at all.

Now, Meowscarada. I am not one to discard moveset potential. Of course moveset potential plays an (imo) equally big role in making the cut and the Decidueye/Incineroar situation is definitely interesting to consider but tbh, I don't see a Gen 9 Pokemon (not even Meowscarada itself) potentially filling a niche next Smash. Quaquaval out of the ones listed is a bit of a long shot in uniqueness but tbh, Ceruledge and Tinkaton if they were to get in, it will not be for the same reason as Incineroar, AKA a unique type of fighter, because there are similar fighters to the roster as them. (Ceruledge with... practically any swordfighter in the game and Tinkaton with King Dedede and the Ice Climbers (and arguably Kirby?)).
Not that that hypothetically would stop them from theoretically becoming fighters, just that they would get in for the same reason Meowscarada would (popularity, unique design etc.) rather than offering something new. And in that sense Meowscarada has more in its favor in that regard than both of them. That's why for now at least, Meowscarada is a lock for me. Because even from a moveset potential POV, the competition is more of a general unknown (an upcoming gen Pokémon primarily) and from the viable candidates from it's Gen, I don't see which one would fill a niche (again, I don't think Meowscarada itself fills a particular niche, much as I think it has potential as a fighter) enough to get prioritized over it. I guess the unknown factors are worth considering but for now, I still fully expect Meowscarada to be a Smash 6 newcomer and would still be equally shocked if we don't see it

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'd probably opt for Rock Howard, Nakoruru or Mai Shiranui as my next SNK newcomer character.

We're getting the pretzel and we're going to love it.

 

[fogbadge]

Oh please, no one is being a "doomer". We're just discussing a character's chances based on the only precedent we have. It's clear as day that nothing has prevented Toad but Sakurai's disinterest in the character.

Also, way to tell on your own fandom's insecurities, cause nobody mentioned moveset potential right now. I actually think Toad could be quite interesting, a tiny glass canon grappler is a compelling archetype—he could be like a mini Donkey Kong in a way. But if the shoe fits...

If I had to be a little optimistic, I'd say the movie does boost Toad's chances a little bit. He's a... mildly important character in it and is quite active. He also has a few comedic moments that probably boosted his popularity with kids. I could see Nintendo pitching Toad to Sakurai based on mainstream appeal alone. He just wouldn't make the choice himself lol.

like I said heard it all before.

 

[superprincess]

like I said heard it all before.

Doesn't make it any less true

 

[Golden Icarus]

The difference between Toad and Ridley is that Ridley's issues were on how he'd function due to his design and didn't go several years with a number of characters from Metroid being added instead of him while Toad's issues clearly stem from a lack of interest on Sakurai's part and has had a number of inclusions from the same franchise outprioritize him for one reason or another.


You can pull the "Well it will happen eventually" card, but like.....what's really stopping Toad from being excluded yet again while other Mario characters get added instead?
Sometimes you just have to read the writing on the wall.

I would argue that a lack of interest isn't any more of a death knell than deliberately being considered unfeasible two games in a row. Is suddenly being inspired to add an "uninteresting character" more ridiculous than implementing a character that was actually seen as impossible? Yeah he has the disadvantage of competing with such a large cast, but that's paired with the advantage of being a member of said cast. The most recognized cast of characters in all of gaming that regularly gets 2-4 newcomers in every Smash. Still a pretty enviable position all things considered. The outcry for Toad might not be as piercing as Ridley's was, but it's still definitely there and grows every game. If fan demand could push an unfeasible character over the edge, then I don't see why fan demand can't push a kind of boring character over the edge.

I realize drawing any comparisons leads to scrutinization, so maybe I need to be more careful about that, but the main reason he feels like Ridley in my head is that he's been relegated to the same role in Smash for enough games in a row that the community is so convinced that it's over for him. With Ridley, that literally became his biggest "X factor." This character was openly rejected so many times that people had to give up on him, which allowed Sakurai to actively play with this expectation, even using the tagline "Ridley Hits the Big Time!"

I think Sakurai is very much keen to how characters are perceived by the community and I think Toad being such a popular, recognized character who has been doomed to Peach's neutral B for decades adds a certain spice to his inclusion. Knowing Sakurai's nature and how often he subverts fan expectations, I almost view this position as a unique advantage and I certainly don't view it as a nail in the coffin.

I don't mind pulling the "it will happen eventually card" while everyone else pulls the "it hasn't happened yet, so it probably never will" card.

 

[fogbadge]

Doesn't make it any less true

that was more of a “I’m amazed you think we’ve never heard that before”

 

[Noipoi]

Didn’t expect Toad to be so controversial

 

[Ivander]

Didn’t expect Toad to be so controversial

View attachment 397403

They're jealous of his movement defining dances.

 

[Louie G.]

The outcry for Toad might not be as piercing as Ridley's was, but it's still definitely there and grows every game. If fan demand could push an unfeasible character over the edge, then I don't see why fan demand can't push a kind of boring character over the edge.

I don't fault you for thinking this way, but I do have my doubts as to whether Toad's more moderate support is enough to serve him very well here.

In my perspective these kind of characters fall into two categories that can be overcome. One is the fan demand category, the other is the status-quo. Again though, this is MY perspective and founded in what we've seen so far. It doesn't mean that characters can't bend the rules, or only fall loosely into these categories, but for me its a safe way to justify more "unrealistic" choices whether it's word of god or just an unfortunate pattern that has given us that idea.

Ridley is a fan demand pick. The constant, unflinching pressure from the community to reconsider his stance inevitably put Ridley in the front of Sakurai's mind since Brawl. And after being pressured to think about the character for three games in a row, he finally came up with a solution. Toad has support, but not at this level. He is a popular character in the mainstream, obviously, but his presence is an unobtrusive and passive one within Smash discussions. If he was added to Smash, I don't think it would be his continued demand that would do it, there is not very much external pressure guiding Sakurai's mind.

Villager is a status quo pick... or rather, a choice in response to a changing status quo. Once upon a time Villager was deemed a poor choice for a playable character, but Animal Crossing's continued success (and perhaps some nudging from Nintendo?) led Sakurai to give it another go. It only took a couple Smash games to get there, and as of Brawl the series only had two entries anyway. By Smash 4, that was up to four installments. Seeing Animal Crossing become a more prominent fixture in Nintendo's arsenal, it became harder and harder to justify ignoring it. On the contrary, outside of the aforementioned Captain Toad bump we just discussed, Toad's role in the series has remained pretty consistent. Is there enough going on right now to reassess?

Honestly, it's possible that there is. Toad's presence within the Mario brand is so omnipresent that it became a criticism for several years. He has a notable presence at the theme parks (mascot suit, wristband), he had a prominent role in a billion dollar grossing feature film. So I think this latter point, these status-quo changes where Toad is further pushed into the spotlight via both standard Mario titles and multimedia expansion are the ones you want to hedge on the most when making a case for him. I guess a lot of this has more to do with Mario's brand expansion as a whole, but it speaks to something relevant that Toad has been present for all of it.

My stance on Toad is very much that I'll believe it when I see it, but the strongest argument in his favor (or pretty much any character's favor, really) is acknowledging how much has changed for them between then and now. Whether that's the progression of a series or a community movement.

 

[RodNutTakin]

All of this and I will still reiterate that I think the likely outcome will be Toadette playable by herself.

Also I don't think Akira is happening any time soon, most of the demand I have seen in that category has been towards Arle and I do not expect anyone else outside of someone from Sonic's series to come before her.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

With Toad it could simply come down to a different director overseeing Smash that perhaps sees a potential in him that Sakurai doesn't or at the very least believes there's a worthwhile playstyle they can get out of him if requested.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Villager is a status quo pick... or rather, a choice in response to a changing status quo. Once upon a time Villager was deemed a poor choice for a playable character, but Animal Crossing's continued success (and perhaps some nudging from Nintendo?) led Sakurai to give it another go. It only took a couple Smash games to get there, and as of Brawl the series only had two entries anyway. By Smash 4, that was up to four installments. Seeing Animal Crossing become a more prominent fixture in Nintendo's arsenal, it became harder and harder to justify ignoring it.

I don't think it was that Animal Crossing was "harder to justify ignoring" because it wasn't ignored. Brawl had everything given to Animal Crossing as a franchise in terms of content short of a fighter, so it was ALREADY seen as a big deal even back then. Just that the idea of a fighter specifically did not sit well due to the nature of the series. But it got its own stage, a music line for said stage, and an extended set of Trophies and Stickers that no other non-fighter series can claim.
And even then, the idea was there for a fighter including the concept of how they would fight using tools like the shovel and butterfly net.

What changed between Brawl and For was Sakurai simply not caring anymore if it doesn't fit the tone as long as it's something that brings something new and fresh to the table, something he'd had directly stated in an interview regarding and .

 

[KingofPhantoms]

If we ever by slim chance ever get a Paper Mario Partner as a newcomer in a Smash game, it better be Vivian or Bobbery.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

All of this and I will still reiterate that I think the likely outcome will be Toadette playable by herself.

Also I don't think Akira is happening any time soon, most of the demand I have seen in that category has been towards Arle and I do not expect anyone else outside of someone from Sonic's series to come before her.

You sure it's Arle and not Kiryu?

 

[Louie G.]

All of this and I will still reiterate that I think the likely outcome will be Toadette playable by herself.

Interesting thought but I really can't justify why you'd go the extra mile to do Toadette and not make any version of Toad playable as an alt or an echo fighter. They're pretty much functionally identical in the main series and it's not as if Toadette is tremendously more popular.

Vouching for Toadette as the default character is one thing, and I guess she has pigtails that can be used for some attacks where Toad does not, but it seems backwards to make it such an exclusive thing and I have to doubt "pigtails" are the big gameplay hook that excites Sakurai to add her in the first place. They are fundamentally gender swaps of one another, barely a step above Byleth or Inkling.

Peachette exists but frankly, I can't see that being a very interesting mechanic on its own. I don't know what else they'd have her do beyond fighting like Peach, and we already have a few transforming characters who IMO probably handle the mechanic much more gracefully. But if you have any compelling ideas for how else they'd handle that then I could maybe understand where you're coming from. Otherwise excluding Toad just feels spiteful at that point.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

You sure it's Arle and not Kiryu?

Depends on which side of the world we’re talking about honestly. West is Kiryu all the way but Japan is known for loving Puyo Puyo.

Kiryu is more widely popular, and one of my most wanted newcomers but Arle is nothing to sneeze at over in Japan. Then again, Yakuza isn’t unpopular over there either so I’d say it leans more towards Kiryu…

…

Bias? What bias? You’re bias!

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Interesting thought but I really can't justify why you'd go the extra mile to do Toadette and not make any version of Toad playable as an alt or an echo fighter. They're pretty much functionally identical in the main series and it's not as if Toadette is tremendously more popular.

Vouching for Toadette as the default character is one thing, and I guess she has pigtails that can be used for some attacks where Toad does not, but it seems backwards to make it such an exclusive thing and I have to doubt "pigtails" are the big gameplay hook that excites Sakurai to add her in the first place. They are fundamentally gender swaps of one another, barely a step above Byleth or Inkling.

Peachette exists but frankly, I can't see that being a very interesting mechanic on its own. I don't know what else they'd have her do beyond fighting like Peach, and we already have a few transforming characters who IMO probably handle the mechanic much more gracefully. But if you have any compelling ideas for how else they'd handle that then I could maybe understand where you're coming from. Otherwise excluding Toad just feels spiteful at that point.

I feel Toadette is slept on as well because of Peachette. The gimmick of having to collect the Super Crown to become a fighter with better recovery options and attack range with a one-time get out of blast zone free card feels like something right up Sakurai's alley.

I have no spite for Toad. I still think Toadette has more potential to pop out to Sakurai since she's essentially Toad+. Anything Toad can do, she can do. And then she has her own stuff like Peachette and temporary size increases via the Enlarge power.

She'd also been getting more spotlight post-Ultimate, so that's something to consider as well.

 

[superprincess]

Toadette just isn't happening without Toad. That's like including Daisy without Peach.

Although I wish she got in on her own with a Peachette transformation.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Toadette honestly has more going on that Toad does.

Toad is kind of a boring choice.

 

[Watuna4343]

When it comes to Toadette, even though it's most likely true she wouldn't get in without Toad she would unironically have the most moveset potential out of the Toad/Toadette duo as she can represent Captain Toad's moveset more logically (given that she has appeared alongside him) and can canonically jump unlike him, while also having regular Toad's moveset along with her own little tweaks. Again, I am not saying that she would get in necessarily (her getting before Toad would be a choice for sure) but moveset wise she might have more potential tbh.

 

[Kirbeh]

Interesting thought but I really can't justify why you'd go the extra mile to do Toadette and not make any version of Toad playable as an alt or an echo fighter. They're pretty much functionally identical in the main series and it's not as if Toadette is tremendously more popular.

Vouching for Toadette as the default character is one thing, and I guess she has pigtails that can be used for some attacks where Toad does not, but it seems backwards to make it such an exclusive thing and I have to doubt "pigtails" are the big gameplay hook that excites Sakurai to add her in the first place.

Sakurai will add Toadette for pigtail attacks.

Meanwhile in the reject bin: Dixie, Twintelle, Shantae, Milia, Filia, etc.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I don't fault you for thinking this way, but I do have my doubts as to whether Toad's more moderate support is enough to serve him very well here.

In my perspective these kind of characters fall into two categories that can be overcome. One is the fan demand category, the other is the status-quo. Again though, this is MY perspective and founded in what we've seen so far. It doesn't mean that characters can't bend the rules, or only fall loosely into these categories, but for me its a safe way to justify more "unrealistic" choices whether it's word of god or just an unfortunate pattern that has given us that idea.

My stance on Toad is very much that I'll believe it when I see it, but the strongest argument in his favor (or pretty much any character's favor, really) is acknowledging how much has changed for them between then and now.

I can feel the indefinite circle that the Toad discussion is trapped in lol

If we're defining every character as a fan demand, or status quo pick (or surprise pick, "Sakurai bias" pick, what have you), then I do think Toad struggles to stand out in any given distinction, which maybe has indeed held him back over the years. If the selection process is as rigid as defining a specific type of newcomer and then selecting a character to fit that description, then Toad probably struggles to be front of mind in any area.

But even if he's not at the top of any list (debatable), he's still on so many lists. The case for Toad is just "how many times is Sakurai gonna add multiple new Mario characters, a handful of popular fan requests, a few characters heavily marketed by Nintendo, while ignoring Toad's name which is consistently rising closer to the top of every single one of those lists?"

The only reason I didn't flesh out the status quo argument is because you can create a strong case for Toad from like 10 different angles, while still having to defend the many counter arguments. Like yeah, not a whole lot of Nintendo characters have gotten to star in a billion dollar film. That's certainly a nice new distinction that he enjoys. And what now we're expecting the next game to likely redesign a bunch of veterans and Peach finally got a new solo game? Pretty much as good a reason as ever to reassess his role.

It's everything. Like he has damn near everything going for him, but since he's always had everything going for him we have to explain why his everything matters more this time. I'm not even trying to say that anything in particular points to Toad being playable this time around, but too many people think that his previous rejections make him a lost cause and I just so so strongly disagree with that sentiment.

 

[fogbadge]

All of this and I will still reiterate that I think the likely outcome will be Toadette playable by herself.

I'd take it

I feel Toadette is slept on as well because of Peachette. The gimmick of having to collect the Super Crown to become a fighter with better recovery options and attack range with a one-time get out of blast zone free card feels like something right up Sakurai's alley.

yeah but it feels a bit off to have her become a peach clone. even if temporary

 

[ScrubReborn]

If we ever by slim chance ever get a Paper Mario Partner as a newcomer in a Smash game, it better be Vivian or Bobbery.

...Now that I think of it, do you think if they added a Paper Mario partner, they'd keep them papery, or would they give 'em a full 3D model?

yeah but it feels a bit off to have her become a peach clone. even if temporary

It wouldn't be off, "Peach clone" is literally what Peachette is. The problem more is... well, turning into a character that's already playable isn't a super exciting gimmick to me. If Peachette was different from Peach tho, it'd be really cool.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Milia

You know, can't the devs add some Milia Rage references to give Dixie some "sauce" anyway?

Not with the actual shapeshifting of her hair, but it's not like she'd be the #1 priority for a GG rep anyway.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Mai Shiranui as my next SNK newcomer character.

At least she got redesign in the upcoming Fatal Fury game so there is chance that wouldn’t be completely absent if Terry returns.

yeah but it feels a bit off to have her become a peach clone. even if temporary

Maybe just in a Final Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

It wouldn't be off, "Peach clone" is literally what Peachette is. The problem more is... well, turning into a character that's already playable isn't a super exciting gimmick to me. If Peachette was different from Peach tho, it'd be a really cool idea.

I meant in the sense that it’d feel a bit like a forced gimmick

Maybe just in a Final Smash.

So long as it’s better than peach’s

 

[Ivander]

Sakurai will add Toadette for pigtail attacks.

Meanwhile in the reject bin: Dixie, Twintelle, Shantae, Milia, Filia, etc.

And by pigtail attacks, we mean genetically and mechanically enhanced controllable hair with iron boxing gloves capable of lifting up and throwing more than 500 pounds, can block rocket punches and missiles, and will not hesitate to go Star Platinum on your defenseless face 10 feet away.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It wouldn't be off, "Peach clone" is literally what Peachette is. The problem more is... well, turning into a character that's already playable isn't a super exciting gimmick to me. If Peachette was different from Peach tho, it'd be really cool.

My idea is that it's a hybrid rather than just being a full clone of Peach (we already have Daisy for that, we don't need TWO lazy half-assed copies).

Toadette would still keep a number of her moves as Peachette with slight tweaks to account the difference in model while borrowing some traits from Peach (i.e. the float).

 

[fogbadge]

And by pigtail attacks, we mean genetically and mechanically enhanced controllable hair with iron boxing gloves capable of lifting up and throwing more than 500 pounds, can block rocket punches and missiles, and will not hesitate to go Star Platinum on your defenseless face 10 feet away.

I mean it’s still pigtails

 

[Laniv]

Re: Toadette: my issue is, "what can Toadette bring to the table that justifies her being more than a Toad/Captain Toad echo/alt?" I feel like if her big hook is "she turns into a (clone of a) character that already exists", then, I dunno, maybe she's not as unique as people say she is. ¯\ _ (ツ) _ /¯

Anyways, the best choice is obviously to have either a composite Toad using both powerups and Captain Toad turnips and pickaxes

Oh please, no one is being a "doomer". We're just discussing a character's chances based on the only precedent we have. It's clear as day that nothing has prevented Toad but Sakurai's disinterest in the character.

That's quitter talk

 

[Ivander]

I mean it’s still pigtails

Sure, but it's kinda overkill when compared to the others' pigtail attacks.

 

[fogbadge]

Sure, but it's kinda overkill when compared to the others' pigtail attacks.

maybe a little. Dixie’s is pretty strong as well

 

[HyperSomari64]

speaking of pigs, I wanna see Professor Chops as an Assist Trophy.
Aside of Classic Ganon, what other porcine folks should be playable?

 

[ScrubReborn]

Toadette would still keep a number of her moves as Peachette with slight tweaks to account the difference in model while borrowing some traits from Peach (i.e. the float).

So basically, Peachette would be like if Toadette and Peach hit the fusion dance? That would definitely be more interesting than the alternative.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So basically, Peachette would be like if Toadette and Peach hit the fusion dance? That would definitely be more interesting than the alternative.

Precisely.

People are too focused on the "Peach" side of the equation, treating the idea as if Peachette would just take the entire moveset of Peach with no differences whatsoever and ignoring the "Toadette" side of the equation.
Peachette is still Toadette. She just has additional Peach traits.

 

[fogbadge]

speaking of pigs, I wanna see Professor Chops as an Assist Trophy.
Aside of Classic Ganon, what other porcine folks should be playable?

ooh that’s a good. can’t think of too many pig characters off the top of my head but I’ll gladly say Lechonk

Precisely.

People are too focused on the "Peach" side of the equation, treating the idea as if Peachette would just take the entire moveset of Peach with no differences whatsoever and ignoring the "Toadette" side of the equation.
Peachette is still Toadette. She just has additional Peach traits.

Personally I’d rather there only be a toadette side of the equation