Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CommanderZaktan]

Happy 20th anniversary to Warioware Touched and Ashley!

 

[RileyXY1]

I love the boss fights in Ultimate, I just wish they had a proper boss rush mode, I would fight every boss with every fighter, but that’s not at all realistic right now.

I think Eggman would be a great boss, I would just hope if he were to become one we would at least get one of Sonic’s friends playable.

Yeah. I think they saw a Boss Rush mode as redundant since the WOL Final Battle and Sephiroth's Classic Mode pretty much do the same thing.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I still find it kind of hilarious that a linear boss rush mode technically exists... But only if you play as one dlc character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is it weird for me to think that Eggman being a playable character in Smash would be a disservice to Eggman and would fit way better for him to be a boss?

Not at all and I completely agree.

Death Egg Robot as a Boss would be a much more appropriate way to represent Eggman than as a Fighter.

I feel the exact same way about Dr. Wily.

But man, a character being a boss would feel like even less of a consolation prize than one being an assist trophy.

That's a problem with your perspective then.

A Boss in Smash has a fully realized character model with a nearly complete Smash moveset that is positioned to be a climactic encounter. It's 2nd only to a unique Fighter in terms of amount of respect and effort goes into making it. And is more prestigious than even Echo Fighters.

Even if I think they're power creeped to heck, I still see assists whenever I play the game casually with friends.

What we need is more Boss ATs like Rathalos.

 

[Gengar84]

I think it could be a fun option for a casual offline mode that lets players control bosses and assist trophies. They wouldn’t necessarily need any moves beyond what they already have and they don’t need to be balanced since it’s just a casual side mode to mess around with. I just thought it was a lot of fun to be able to finally play as Master Hand at the end of World of Light so it would be interesting to expand on that.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm not going to double down against Eggman as a playable character, I would be quite happy to welcome him into the fold. But I do think we may see him as a boss first, it's my gut feeling that he isn't really being considered for a playable role. It's not that it couldn't work, but Sonic has several other candidates who I think lend themselves more naturally who may take initial priority. I'm not sure if the mech styled gameplay really "dances" in Sakurai's mind the way someone like Tails, Knuckles or Shadow very clearly would.

Eggman would be the most unique, though. I've seen concepts that sell me on the idea a bit more. But I like the thought of him piloting a big Death Egg robot, or being a disruptive stage element on a Sonic stage with more diverse theming, I wouldn't be disappointed in that. Any kind of fresh new Sonic content would be exciting after so many years of stale bread, although I hope we get a second character one way or another.

 

[SharkLord]

I could see some sort of Banana temple stage for Donkey Kong. I'm not sure if that's an actual location in Donkey Kong game (closest is golden temple in returns it seems) but it seems to have become the default aesthetic for Donkey Kong these days
View attachment 396567

View attachment 396569

View attachment 396568

The existence of a Golden Temple in DK's rainforest implies there is a god that the Kongs worship

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The existence of a Golden Temple in DK's rainforest implies there is a god that the Kongs worship

Of course. It's King Kong.

They just can't legally say it. :V

 

[fogbadge]

The existence of a Golden Temple in DK's rainforest implies there is a god that the Kongs worship

I think they might actually worship a giant banana

 

[HyperSomari64]

I think they might actually worship a giant banana

It's giant, but it is golden?

 

[Perkilator]

Of course. It's King Kong.

They just can't legally say it. :V

Even though Universal let them take up space in their amusement park? SMH, this is why we need to abolish copyright laws.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I like the idea behind huge stages. The examples in Smash maybe could use improvement, but they could do some cool things once they do figure out their ideas. A priority should just be making sure every stage has at least a few places that aren't annoying to be in.

 

[fogbadge]

It's giant, but it is golden?

not all of them

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Speaking of stages, while I played Tears of the Kingdom, I had a thought to make Rauru's Blessing into a stage. Y'know, the set of shrines without any puzzles in them?

It'd be a simple stage with three levels, and stairs connecting each level. A cool green background too.

 

[fogbadge]

Speaking of stages, while I played Tears of the Kingdom, I had a thought to make Rauru's Blessing into a stage. Y'know, the set of shrines without any puzzles in them?
View attachment 396571
It'd be a simple stage with three levels, and stairs connecting each level. A cool green background too.

I like it

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Also, I will never understand the "Eggman works better as a boss" crap.

He's a versatile enough character that can easily fulfill both roles. Using a smaller mech like the E-Mech, Eggmobile, or Eggwalker as a fighter and a larger mech like Death Egg Robot or Egg Dragoon as a Final Smash/boss.

does it between himself and Giga Bowser.
does it between himself and Ganon.
has been both a boss and a fighter at different points in the series and people have used the same exact "better as a boss" argument (and some still do for whatever reason).

So really, what logic is there that Eggman can only be and should only be a boss?

 

[Super Devon]

Also, I will never understand the "Eggman works better as a boss" crap.

He's a versatile enough character that can easily fulfill both roles. Using a smaller mech like the E-Mech, Eggmobile, or Eggwalker as a fighter and a larger mech like Death Egg Robot or Egg Dragoon as a Final Smash/boss.

does it between himself and Giga Bowser.
does it between himself and Ganon.
has been both a boss and a fighter at different points in the series and people have used the same exact "better as a boss" argument (and some still do for whatever reason).

So really, what logic is there that Eggman can only be and should only be a boss?

I'd like to clarify that I never stated that Eggman shouldn't be a fighter and should only be a boss.
It's just that I'd prefer that he'd be a boss, I was never trying to suggest that he shouldn't be a fighter, moreso that I think he'd be a lot cooler as a boss.
Even if I don't personally want him to be a fighter, it's not like I'd be mad if he does get in as a fighter, it's just that he wouldn't be my first choice as a second Sonic rep, that's all.

Apologies for the misunderstandings lol.

EDIT: Just to add a bit more context, I only really said he'd be a "disservice" to the his character based on what I've seen from fan concepts and such, though if Sakurai can find a way that would make him interesting and fun, then I'd be down, but as it stands, I'm not really vibin' from what was conceptualized from people.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'd like to clarify that I never stated that Eggman shouldn't be a fighter and should only be a boss.
It's just that I'd prefer that he'd be a boss, I was never trying to suggest that he shouldn't be a fighter, moreso that I think he'd be a lot cooler as a boss.
Even if I don't personally want him to be a fighter, it's not like I'd be mad if he does get in as a fighter, it's just that he wouldn't be my first choice as a second Sonic rep, that's all.

Apologies for the misunderstandings lol.

Aight. Fair enough.

 

[Will]

Also, I will never understand the "Eggman works better as a boss" crap.

So really, what logic is there that Eggman can only be and should only be a boss?

It isn’t logic, it’s just selfish copium. It’s “better” for Eggman to these folks because it’s less competition for Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, etc.

It’s “better” because the character(s) became playable before Eggman, because in their mind, it’s “better” for the roster this way. If Eggman takes this slot in the next game, that slot gets (hypothetically) taken from the Sonic franchise for the next five-to-ten years, until the next Smash after that is announced. Smash fans are not known in the gaming community for our patience.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I like the idea behind huge stages. The examples in Smash maybe could use improvement, but they could do some cool things once they do figure out their ideas. A priority should just be making sure every stage has at least a few places that aren't annoying to be in.

That and not be too big, or if they are, incentivize fighting over running away.

Actually, Louie G. 's E.M.M.I. Zone idea could work quite well for that by having a character that periodically comes out an targets lone fighters, herding them into the bigger skirmishes, and generally inciting chaos from there.

 

[Louie G.]

It isn’t logic, it’s just selfish copium. It’s “better” for Eggman to these folks because it’s less competition for Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, etc.

I don't know about this, most Sonic fans I've spoken to either want Eggman the most or would just be happy to have a new character at all. I don't think there's this kind of selfish infighting among Sonic fans when the desperation for literally anything next game is so high. Preference is splintered but at the heart of it everyone wants the same thing... I can't think of many that would be outright against the doc.

Again, from my perspective, I just don't see Eggman as someone in heavy consideration. I think the road to getting him playable is probably comparable to someone like Ridley in the past, visualized as a boss first and fan demand putting him in stronger competition for a playable role. The other three characters have a leg up on Eggman's Smash popularity having been requested for far longer (circa Brawl), while his support boomed during late stage Ultimate DLC. That paired with Eggman being straddled to a machine most of the time, I think those characters would just jump out more as the next playable candidate.

It doesn't have much to do with my preference - I openly admit Eggman would be the most unique and interesting of the bunch, and I don't feel as strongly about Sonic desperately needing more characters the way some other people do. And frankly I would really, really like an actual mech character in Smash that takes the concept further than Bowser Jr. But I don't think he is the next step for the series, and I'd be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'm desperate enough to accept Big the Cat at this point.

....but not desperate enough for Zavok :V

 

[Super Devon]

I'm desperate enough to accept Big the Cat at this point.

....but not desperate enough for Zavok :V

This might've been a tease all along :

 

[Cyberfire]

Speaking of stages, while I played Tears of the Kingdom, I had a thought to make Rauru's Blessing into a stage. Y'know, the set of shrines without any puzzles in them?
View attachment 396571
It'd be a simple stage with three levels, and stairs connecting each level. A cool green background too.

The Depths are so atmospheric, I hope it could lead to a really standout stage.

 

[Will]

I don't know about this, most Sonic fans I've spoken to either want Eggman the most or would just be happy to have a new character at all. I don't think there's this kind of selfish infighting among Sonic fans when the desperation for literally anything next game is so high. Preference is splintered but at the heart of it everyone wants the same thing... I can't think of many that would be outright against the doc.

Most Mario fans are happy just to have another fresh addition, but does that stop them from bickering if that one addition is going to be Waluigi or Toad or Pauline or Geno or Dr. Goomba Tower?

Theres infighting somewhere man, it doesn’t have to be this thread or even this website.

Furthermore, read my post carefully. I didn’t say people are outright against playable Eggman, I said people preferred other characters becoming playable first. That’s their personalized opinion, that’s what makes it selfish. Not selfish like greedy, selfish like self.

Again, from my perspective, I just don't see Eggman as someone in heavy consideration. I think the road to getting him playable is probably comparable to someone like Ridley in the past, visualized as a boss first and fan demand putting him in stronger competition for a playable role. The other three characters have a leg up on Eggman's Smash popularity having been requested for far longer (circa Brawl), while his support boomed during late stage Ultimate DLC. That paired with Eggman being straddled to a machine most of the time, I think those characters would just jump out more as the next playable candidate.

It doesn't have much to do with my preference - I openly admit Eggman would be the most unique and interesting of the bunch, and I don't feel as strongly about Sonic desperately needing more characters the way some other people do. And frankly I would really, really like an actual mech character in Smash that takes the concept further than Bowser Jr. But I don't think he is the next step for the series, and I'd be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong.

And that’s your valid opinion man. My only comment is like… do you really believe not a single soul wanted Eggman playable until Ultimate came out, or that Eggman support hasn’t been around as long as other characters?

I bet you could literally find Eggman support threads from 2014 and before like other Sonic characters if you really tried.

 

[DarthEnderX]

He's a versatile enough character that can easily fulfill both roles. Using a smaller mech like the E-Mech, Eggmobile, or Eggwalker as a fighter and a larger mech like Death Egg Robot or Egg Dragoon as a Final Smash/boss.

He could. But that's wasting a Fighter slot that could go to another Sonic character instead.

Why represent one character twice when you can represent 2 different characters instead.

So really, what logic is there that Eggman can only be and should only be a boss?

Because it's depriving someone more deserving, like, Knuckles, Shadow or Tails, of their chance at being a Fighter.

It isn’t logic, it’s just selfish copium. It’s “better” for Eggman to these folks because it’s less competition for Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, etc.

It's not selfish copium at all. Those characters are just straight up better suited to be Fighters than Eggman. And Eggman is better suited to be a Boss than those characters.

That's not a slight against the character, and I don't understand the people that keep treating it as such. It's just the role that fits the character best. Like how characters like Mother Brain, or Whispy Woods or Metal Gear REX would just fit better as Bosses.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Speaking of stages, while I played Tears of the Kingdom, I had a thought to make Rauru's Blessing into a stage. Y'know, the set of shrines without any puzzles in them?
View attachment 396571
It'd be a simple stage with three levels, and stairs connecting each level. A cool green background too.

I happened upon one of these by accident while trying to get to the Lightning Temple.

I saw in the distance, used my Paraglider to reach it, couldn't see what was surrounding it at first due to the sandstorm, then was confused why it was just a Blessing Shrine instead of a puzzle/combat Shrine since it didn't seem like there were any puzzles or major obstacles that needed tb be solved/avoided to access it.

Then I left and saw all the hazards, enemies and the lack of a safe regular pathway leading to it.

I then understood and realized I somehow managed to skip all the hazards and challenge to getting to this Shrine by complete accident.

 

[Arcanir]

He could. But that's wasting a Fighter slot that could go to another Sonic character instead.

Why represent one character twice when you can represent 2 different characters instead.

That argument ironically helps Eggman since by that point we shouldn't get Shadow or Knuckles since they're already ATs and 'represented' in the game while Eggman is only present as a Spirit.

 

[Gengar84]

He could. But that's wasting a Fighter slot that could go to another Sonic character instead.

Why represent one character twice when you can represent 2 different characters instead.

Because it's depriving someone more deserving, like, Knuckles, Shadow or Tails, of their chance at being a Fighter.

I wouldn’t necessarily say any of them are “more deserving” than Eggman. I generally prefer getting the main villain as the second rep before support characters because I enjoy creating matchups like that in Smash. Of course, a lot of that is dependent on who the villain and support characters are and I’ll generally just want who I like more. That said, Knuckles is my favorite Sonic character so I’d rather see him before Eggman but that has nothing to do with who is deserving.

 

[fogbadge]

Personally I think the next sonic character should be Tails or Eggman. mind you I think there's barely a sonic character who's inclusion would bother me. I mean I don't like shadow but I can tolerate him more than other characters of his archetype

 

[DarthEnderX]

I wouldn’t necessarily say any of them are “more deserving” than Eggman.

To be Fighters? I would. 100%.

Just like I would say Eggman is 100% more deserving to be a Boss than them.

Personally I think the next sonic character should be Tails or Eggman

The next Sonic:
Fighter should be Knuckles
Echo should be Shadow
Boss should be Death Egg Robot
AT should be Tails flying the Tornado.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

If we're gonna get a stage from TotK, I'd personally want it to be either the Depths or the main sky island.

And I'm not sure if the latter is a good idea considering that Skyloft already exists. They're different enough visually but similar enough in concept that it might just seem repetitive. If they do go for the sky island route, I'd rather they stick to just the one Link starts out on and maybe have a few elements like Zonai constructs or mine trains as hazards. Any other variant of the sky islands as a stage would probably be yet another "tour" stage, which Smash IMO has more than enough of and would make it even more like a rehash of Skyloft.

 

[fogbadge]

To be Fighters? I would. 100%.

Just like I would say Eggman is 100% more deserving to be a Boss than them.

ganon and giga bowser must drive you mad

 

[Gengar84]

To be Fighters? I would. 100%.

Just like I would say Eggman is 100% more deserving to be a Boss than them.

I agree with you that they’d be easier to make work as playable characters than Eggman but I feel like that’s a different argument than who is most deserving of it. Eggman is pretty important to the Sonic universe and if we’re going off series importance, he’s more than deserving of a spot. Whether they can successfully make that work is another question.

 

[Louie G.]

Most Mario fans are happy just to have another fresh addition, but does that stop them from bickering if that one addition is going to be Waluigi or Toad or Pauline or Geno or Dr. Goomba Tower?

We're not talking about supporting Mario characters. The equivalent to what you're posing here is if we were arguing about Blaze, Big the Cat, Gamma and Vector and had 6+ Sonic characters in the game already. What we're actually doing is discussing the most prominent characters in the series. Nobody is really in disagreement that both Eggman and Tails, for example, are pretty essential parts of Sonic's circle. Was there feverish disagreements over whether Peach or Bowser was getting into Melee?

Sonic is relatively starved for characters and supplemental content. Yes, we'll go back and forth about who it will be. But unlike with Mario, and fans who have waited like 20 years for Toad being burnt by a Goomba Stack, Smash x Sonic fans want one thing right now and it's just anything new. You can't really go wrong with any of the feasible options.

And that’s your valid opinion man. My only comment is like… do you really believe not a single soul wanted Eggman playable until Ultimate came out, or that Eggman support hasn’t been around as long as other characters?

I bet you could literally find Eggman support threads from 2014 and before like other Sonic characters if you really tried.

This isn't a strong case because like... do you think Sakurai is scouring the site for fringe support threads? I was here during 2014, support for a new Sonic character in general was not especially high during this period but I very rarely saw it skewed toward Eggman. I never once said this support didn't exist (I said it "boomed", as in got significantly larger), but I am referring to defined fan movements that equate to actual buzz and presumably Smash ballot support.

This isn't really the hill to die on. People were asking for Shadow pretty much in tandem with requests for Sonic in Brawl. Tails in Smash was a topic so old that he was in that infamous Melee hoax alongside Sonic over 20 years ago. Knuckles was even almost in Project M, for whatever that's worth. Eggman did not have any palpable community push like this, his strongest momentum was after Sephiroth shattered the perceived barrier for third party representation in Ultimate and people started talking about third party villains. I think most people will admit this is the case, whether they want Eggman or not.

I've wanted Marx playable, for example, since I played Kirby Super Star Ultra. That support was pretty much invisible. Then Star Allies came out and his support flourished, relatively speaking. A new door was opened and it felt like a cause worth pursuing a little more than before. This is a common phenomenon in the community in response to new information and events that make these dreams feel closer to reality. It doesn't mean nobody wanted them before... but it's wrong to pretend Eggman is as popular in the Smash community now as he was a decade ago. If you have to "really try" to find this support, then I don't think there's anything wrong with what I said.

 

[DarthEnderX]

ganon and giga bowser must drive you mad

Not really. Cause those series already have a bunch of Fighters.

Sonic only has Sonic. So giving 2 dev slots to Eggman feels like a bigger waste of opportunity.


Also, Giga Bowser is different from other Bosses. Because he doesn't have a unique moveset. He reuses a ton of Bowser's move animations. Which makes his inclusion less of an opportunity cost.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Since we're talking about Sonic, I think they should add the Marble Zone theme to Smash. It's one of my favorite underworld themes in video games.

 

[fogbadge]

Not really. Cause those series already have a bunch of Fighters.

Sonic only has Sonic. So giving 2 dev slots to Eggman feels like a bigger waste of opportunity.


Also, Giga Bowser is different from other Bosses. Because he doesn't have a unique moveset. He reuses a ton of Bowser's move animations. Which makes his inclusion less of an opportunity cost.

and what, they couldn’t do the same for eggman?

 

[Gengar84]

Since we're talking about Sonic, I think they should add the Marble Zone theme to Smash. It's one of my favorite underworld themes in video games.

I’d like to see more classic Genesis themes in general. I’m surprised they didn’t even include the Chemical Plant Zone song. I like the new music too but we still need a lot of the older songs.

 

[Will]

We're not talking about supporting Mario characters.

It’s an analogy to help you and only you understand my point. You could’ve just said it went over your head and it would’ve done just as much as your wall of text.

The equivalent to what you're posing here is if we were arguing about Blaze, Big the Cat, Gamma and Vector and had 6+ Sonic characters in the game already. What we're actually doing is discussing the most prominent characters in the series. Nobody is really in disagreement that both Eggman and Tails, for example, are pretty essential parts of Sonic's circle. Was there feverish disagreements over whether Peach or Bowser was getting into Melee?

Probably. What about it?

Multiple inclusions like Melee and 4 did for Mario is probably the best-case scenario for Sonic representation, we can all agree on that.

Sonic is relatively starved for characters and supplemental content. Yes, we'll go back and forth about who it will be. But unlike with Mario, and fans who have waited like 20 years for Toad being burnt by a Goomba Stack, Smash x Sonic fans want one thing right now and it's just anything new. You can't really go wrong with any of the feasible options.

Does that change the fact that people have their own personal preference and opinion on who should go first? In a fanbase that rationalizes an artificial scarcity like I exampled earlier, isn’t the Eggman boss argument just a rationalization for their opinionated preferences?

I’m only answering GoldenYuiitusin ‘s question about the logic behind such an extreme solution. My answer is stemmed from my similarly extensive experience with the Smash community.

This isn't a strong case because like... do you think Sakurai is scouring the site for fringe support threads? I was here during 2014, support for a new Sonic character in general was not especially high during this period but I very rarely saw it skewed toward Eggman. I never once said this support didn't exist (I said it "boomed", as in got significantly larger), but I am referring to defined fan movements that equate to actual buzz and presumably Smash ballot support.

Fair enough.

This isn't really the hill to die on.

You’re making hills to die on out of plateaus to live on buddy, calm down

People were asking for Shadow pretty much in tandem with requests for Sonic in Brawl. Tails in Smash was a topic so old that he was in that infamous Melee hoax alongside Sonic over 20 years ago. Knuckles was even almost in Project M, for whatever that's worth. Eggman did not have any palpable community push like this, his strongest momentum was after Sephiroth shattered the perceived barrier for third party representation in Ultimate and people started talking about third party villains. I think most people will admit this is the case, whether they want Eggman or not.

I've wanted Marx playable, for example, since I played Kirby Super Star Ultra. That support was pretty much invisible. Then Star Allies came out and his support flourished, relatively speaking. A new door was opened and it felt like a cause worth pursuing a little more than before. This is a common phenomenon in the community in response to new information and events that make these dreams feel closer to reality. It doesn't mean nobody wanted them before... but it's wrong to pretend Eggman is as popular in the Smash community now as he was a decade ago.

If you can bring the actual data here for Eggman with the numbers, I’ll commend you. Good luck.

And again, this isn’t a disagreement. I just didn’t ask about all dat. I said “as long”, not “as much”.