Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[chocolatejr9]

Hey guys, I'm sort of new to this site. I came a few months ago but I haven't done much til now.

As a newcomer here, this question is going to be bit weird and niche but have any of you heard of the CPUCS: The Tournament Series?

Trust me, it will make sense later

Let me guess: you're gonna be the announcer?

 

[SmashAnnouncer]

Eh, somewhat. I'll wait for more people to come to explain more fully

 

[chocolatejr9]

Eh, somewhat. I'll wait for more people to come to explain more fully

Well, for what it's worth, I was mostly making a joke about your username...

 

[Gengar84]

Kleavor would be a good pick. Looks like a fighter, and we don't have a Bug or Rock type yet.

Pit's update didn't come until AFTER he got into Smash though.

I’d personally love to see either Sneasler or Hisuian Zoroark for a Legends Arceus rep. Those two were so cool in their own ways. I wonder if Base Zoroark and Hisuian Zoroark could work as alts of each other?

Kleavor is pretty cool to but is honestly a step down in terms of design from both Scyther and Scizor in my opinion. If we could get all three as alts of one character that would be cool but I’m not sure if that would work. That’s probably harder than the two Zoroarks as alts due to the three bugs having vastly different arms. Otherwise, I think their bodies are similar enough to work. Looking at the three again just now, I definitely think it’s workable.

 

[fogbadge]

I’d personally love to see either Sneasler or Hisuian Zoroark for a Legends Arceus rep. Those two were so cool in their own ways. I wonder if Base Zoroark and Hisuian Zoroark could work as alts of each other?

well i think in terms of hitboxes it could, assuming nobody is thrown by his insane hair. as for moves well i dont think theres much over lap with what both kinds can use but sakurais not one to get bogged down by such things

 

[Ivander]

Welllllll.....

http://nintendoeverything.com/masah...akihiro-hino-share-brief-comments-about-2016/



And then we got Smash Ultimate.

I still wouldn't expect something big, for hype control's sake. If it's something big, I will wait until it's actually announced before even thinking of hyping it up while it's still unknown.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Sometimes, characters that are Mii costumes have something in common with the character they're revealed with (Virtua Fighter and Terry, Dante and Kazuya).

I wonder what does Doom Slayer have in common with Sora?

 

[Sucumbio]

They're both...

Strangers in a straaaange laaand

 

[Chuderz]

Calling his freelance status a technicality is quite the understatement. He very well may continue working with Nintendo, but he's in no way beholden to them as a developer under them would be. He literally disbanded the team Nintendo built for him for Uprising after the game. If Nintendo makes a first-party studio for you and then you shutter it, there's no better indication of not wanting to be tied to a singular company.

Okay well I'll just go ahead and predict it's going to be a product for Nintendo based on past precedent. I think he's mostly a freelancer for the paychecks (+2 counting his wife) with the added benefit of less overhead and that still isn't as much as you're trying to portray it as considering he's gone on record talking about how Nintendo decides DLC and how Nintendo directly pressured him (not using that term negatively) into putting Minecraft and Kazuya into Smash specifically.

I don't think he could have kept the Kid Icarus Uprising team if he wanted to? Where has it ever been said that he had that option? Assuming it was even an option I don't see how they'd been helpful in doing Smash 4 his next project after that versus Bamco a seasoned developer in that genre.

Think about it. He doesn't have a team (wife aside), he doesn't seem to have a permanent office, he could have all these things, but he's literally structured his "company" to be able to pick up and go wherever he's currently employed. He is freelance through and through, so far he just gravitated towards Nintendo due to his feelings of ownership over Smash and his relationship with Iwata, which kept bringing him back, but, for the first time, is no longer a factor.

He wouldn't need a permanent office with an employee roll only consisting of himself and his wife so that point is a little redundant. He has a company that can "pick and go wherever he's currently employed" so far as it literally functions as an intermediary between himself and the contractor.

I actually don't think his relationship with Nintendo is completely defined by his relationship to Iwata. A significant chunk of it sure but I'm also sure he's close with more than just one person from the organization. Just human nature really, in fact, I think it's quite possible that Iwata's passing likely brought him closer to other members if anything considering they'd have shared a bond with him.

Plus working with so many disparate parties has made it only easier for him to build in-roads with any number of companies.

Maybe but I think his reputation is partially tied to his representation of Nintendo as a whole. There's no telling but I think his familiarity with Nintendo's hardware and business structure is something to consider along with the aforementioned past precedent of him literally always working on Nintendo systems.

 

[Stratos]

As I see it, the Pikmin 4 will be released on Nintendo's next console.

 

[Diddy Kong]

As I see it, the Pikmin 4 will be released on Nintendo's next console.

Metroid Prime 4 too.

 

[Stratos]

From the Mortal Kombat series, I believe that Scorpion is the one who will come as a newcomer to a future game of the Super Smash Bros. series, because he is the mascot of the series and the company that owns it and he is also famous for the phrase "get over here". I used to consider the Liu Kang as a possible candidate.

 

[Chuderz]

From the Mortal Kombat series, I believe that Scorpion is the one who will come as a newcomer to a future game of the Super Smash Bros. series, because he is the mascot of the series and the company that owns it and he is also famous for the phrase "get over here". I used to consider the Liu Kang as a possible candidate.

I'd love it but I doubt it. It's totally unfair but Japan banned the series I think. People would also say that the series couldn't be represented without the gore or that subtracting that element to fit in with Smash would take away from properly representing the series which I think is a load convenient hogwash talk.

Basically Mortal Kombat has a massive roadblock getting into the game that no other historically important series has and anybody that doesn't like Mortal Kombat online now has plenty of ammunition to shut down the conversation.

By all rights Mortal Kombat should get the next FGC rep but unlike other characters of merit has an unfair ban standing in its way that no other series has to contend with. On top of that it's 3rd party.

Scorpion would be the obvious choice. He'd have to get a tether grab and a Bat's Within/Foresight mechanic to mimic his teleport.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's totally unfair but Japan banned the series I think

Not exactly. It could be released with toned-down gore, but the low popularity in Japan combined with MK being more ridiculous about gore than ever means it's too much work for too little sales. The grayscale effect they used to tone down fatalities in MKII won't be enough for MK11's gore.

 

[Chuderz]

Not exactly. It could be released with toned-down gore, but the low popularity in Japan combined with MK being more ridiculous about gore than ever means it's too much work for too little sales. The grayscale effect they used to tone down fatalities in MKII won't be enough for MK11's gore.

Okay then. Yeah I think it's like the certification board over there is really touchy about the gore in large part due to Japanese culture being sensitive to it generally speaking. I think that's weird considering all the bloody anime I've seen. I'm pretty sure you're right though because I've heard the ban claim disputed and I think it's basically what you said in that it's functionally banned with these circumstances working against it.

That's actually really great news though if that's the case because then Mortal Kombat could definitely be represented in Smash someday as a pick catered towards the west.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think that's weird considering all the bloody anime I've seen

Well it helps that it'd be less detailed than Fatalities which had to use IRL gore as reference material.

 

[Delzethin]

Regardless of ban status, Mortal Kombat just isn't very popular or regarded in the East as-is, and that's a very big obstacle to overcome. If we're talking new fighting game options for Smash 6, I think we're best off looking at Guilty Gear and Soul Calibur.

Though if Scorpion and/or Sub-Zero don't get into Multiversus eventually, I'll be legit surprised.

 

[Chuderz]

Western picks in general are a super untapped source for newcomer candidates. It'd be nice if the floodgates really opened up next time with Microsoft being a significant source to that end.

The only thing more hype than a Crash Bandicoot reveal would be a double reveal including Spyro.

 

[Stratos]

Regardless of ban status, Mortal Kombat just isn't very popular or regarded in the East as-is, and that's a very big obstacle to overcome. If we're talking new fighting game options for Smash 6, I think we're best off looking at Guilty Gear and Soul Calibur.

Though if Scorpion and/or Sub-Zero don't get into Multiversus eventually, I'll be legit surprised.

For both characters from these two games, Sol Badguy and Siegfried Schtauffen.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Spyro

...at least Mortal Kombat was able to get its original trilogy completed in Japan...

 

[Chuderz]

...at least Mortal Kombat was able to get its original trilogy completed in Japan...

Japan this, Japan that. It doesn't matter. Of course Japanese players/people wouldn't know or care about who Spyro is. That shouldn't be the number 1 priority at every angle of Smash speculation. Sometimes the idea that a pick might cater toward western players can be embraced, hoped for and even celebrated.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That shouldn't be the number 1 priority at every angle of Smash speculation

Maybe things would be different if the director had a name like Matthew Samuel, but he doesn't.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Japan this, Japan that. It doesn't matter. Of course Japanese players/people wouldn't know or care about who Spyro is. That shouldn't be the number 1 priority at every angle of Smash speculation. Sometimes the idea that a pick might cater toward western players can be embraced, hoped for and even celebrated.

Well, not to be THAT guy, but Smash is a Japanese game. Made by a Japanese company. One that happens to be biased towards the Japanese market. I get paid everytime I say Japanese. Japanese. Japanese. Japanese...

 

[Stratos]

Ring Fit Trainee as a newcomer means no longer the Wii Fit Trainer in the Super Smash Bros. series? I do not think so.

 

[dream1ng]

Okay well I'll just go ahead and predict it's going to be a product for Nintendo based on past precedent. I think he's mostly a freelancer for the paychecks (+2 counting his wife) with the added benefit of less overhead and that still isn't as much as you're trying to portray it as considering he's gone on record talking about how Nintendo decides DLC and how Nintendo directly pressured him (not using that term negatively) into putting Minecraft and Kazuya into Smash specifically.

A freelancer for the paychecks? His IPs were basically all HAL was making when he left that company, that could've retained a very steady source of income for him at a high level position in that company, as could having constructed Project Sora as more than a temporary developer.

Instead he left to make Meteos, and was dragged back for Brawl.

Also being a freelancer or not has nothing to do with having total autonomy on the projects he works on. He's always going to be partially beholden to the whims of where the money comes from. Though being freelance, he has the option to take jobs that give him more autonomy.

I don't think he could have kept the Kid Icarus Uprising team if he wanted to? Where has it ever been said that he had that option? Assuming it was even an option I don't see how they'd been helpful in doing Smash 4 his next project after that versus Bamco a seasoned developer in that genre.

I think Iwata, the guy that kept bringing him back under Nintendo, and built him a gestalt team for a single project, would've been happy to make more permanent accommodations for the man. I just don't think that's what Sakurai wanted.

He literally wouldn't need a permanent office with an employee roll only consisting of himself and his wife so that point is a little redundant. He has a company that can "pick and go wherever he's currently employed" so far as it literally functions as an intermediary between himself and the contractor.

Good points in the argument for his freelance status.

I actually don't think his relationship with Nintendo is completely defined by his relationship to Iwata. A significant chunk of it sure but I'm sure he's close with more than just one person from the organization. I think that's like pretty obvious human nature. In fact Iwata's passing most likely brought him closer to other members if anything considering they'd have shared a bond with him.

No, it's not completely defined solely by his interactions through Iwata. Obviously he deals with many people in his position, and completed Ultimate almost entirely without Iwata. But Iwata was also the specific person who recruited him for every job at Nintendo after leaving HAL, and the two had a close professional relationship.

Without him, the dynamic is different. Not that that means he'll abandon Nintendo, just that the person who kept bringing him back isn't there anymore.

Maybe but I think that strength is partially tied to his representation of Nintendo as a whole. There's no telling but I think his familiarity with Nintendo's hardware and business structure is something to consider along with the aforementioned past precedent of him literally always working on Nintendo systems.

That's where he built his reputation, but it's not like he can't stand without it now. Being a desired freelance dev means he has a choice over which hardware and business he chooses to align with. It's not like he's only ever developed for one system, and his team is likely the ones that will provide the hardware expertise. In the past he's worked on systems that weren't even in their final state, with teams equally as green to them.

As for business, he already seems pretty deft at navigating between a myriad of different ones. Not many people can balance all those companies at once. For as skilled a developer as he is, he also seems to acutely understand business relations and inter-company negotiation.

Japan this, Japan that. It doesn't matter. Of course Japanese players/people wouldn't know or care about who Spyro is. That shouldn't be the number 1 priority at every angle of Smash speculation. Sometimes the idea that a pick might cater toward western players can be embraced, hoped for and even celebrated.

Of course it matters. Smash itself clearly prioritizes third-parties who have global appeal, and while it's not impossible to get one that skews heavily one way, that way being against Japan, with most of the games not even releasing there, is going to put a whole bunch of other candidates in a much more favorable, much more auspicious position.

All the more so when that character isn't even among the most popular in the regions they do have popularity. Picking Spyro over Crash is like picking Adam Jensen over Lara Croft.

 

[HyperSomari64]

If Smash 6 was Teen rated, should the dev team will keep the censorship?

 

[StrangeKitten]

I wouldn't be that surprised to see Spyro and Scorpion in Smash. They're both among the more well-known video game characters. But I also wouldn't be that surprised if they didn't make it, and if they do, it would likely be alongside a few characters who are popular in Japan. The devs are naturally going to favor characters who are popular in Japan, but let's not forget that we did get Banjo & Kazooie, whose popularity is much more western-based.

 

[dream1ng]

I wouldn't be that surprised to see Spyro and Scorpion in Smash. They're both among the more well-known video game characters. But I also wouldn't be that surprised if they didn't make it, and if they do, it would likely be alongside a few characters who are popular in Japan. The devs are naturally going to favor characters who are popular in Japan, but let's not forget that we did get Banjo & Kazooie, whose popularity is much more western-based.

People like to raise Banjo like his games weren't highly successful in Japan as well. The first sold 400k over there, which is 150k more than the most successful Xenoblade title.

It's quite different than series that barely, if ever, even get released there.

 

[RileyXY1]

People like to raise Banjo like his games weren't highly successful in Japan as well. The first sold 400k over there, which is 150k more than the most successful Xenoblade title.

It's quite different than series that barely, if ever, even get released there.

Which is the case for characters like Spyro and Scorpion. Also the DLC has mostly orientated towards what Japanese players want, while most of the Western appeal picks are put in the base game.

 

[dream1ng]

Which is the case for characters like Spyro and Scorpion. Also the DLC has mostly orientated towards what Japanese players want, while most of the Western appeal picks are put in the base game.

I think that's more due to the breakdown of loading first-parties into base and keeping third-parties and the more promotional first-parties for DLC. Plus the first-parties Japan would've wanted to see like Rex or Bandana Dee have/had their own impediments.

Though let's also not forget how popular Splatoon and Animal Crossing are in Japan, both of which received newcomers in base.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think a lot of this comes down to the practicality of it being easier to work with Japanese companies than Western ones, given the shared language, and major Japanese companies tend to create titles fairly popular in major regions with more consistency than their American/European counterparts. There are exceptions obviously, but given the embarrassment of riches still to be found in Capcom, Konami, Square, Sega, & Namco, I really wouldn't blame Nintendo in leaning on them again for the next game.

 

[Gengar84]

I think a lot of this comes down to the practicality of it being easier to work with Japanese companies than Western ones, given the shared language, and major Japanese companies tend to create titles fairly popular in major regions with more consistency than their American/European counterparts. There are exceptions obviously, but given the embarrassment of riches still to be found in Capcom, Konami, Square, Sega, & Namco, I really wouldn't blame Nintendo in leaning on them again for the next game.

The good news is that almost all of my most wanted western characters other than Scorpion and Sub-Zero are now owned by Microsoft. It should probably help make negotiations easier only having to deal with a single parent company Nintendo is already on good terms with. The only other western characters I can think of off the top of my head that I think would be cool that aren’t from MK or Microsoft are Borderlands characters.

 

[Chuderz]

Maybe things would be different if the director had a name like Matthew Samuel, but he doesn't.

As far as Smash speculation goes I don't think it really matters. If the west demands it loud enough or even Microsoft makes Nintendo partially aware of the demand and makes it a good bundled deal for the two then I think it'd happen. Who knows maybe Microsoft goes so far as to demand Spyro come with Crash in order to get him. It's all pretty fair speculation.

Well, not to be THAT guy, but Smash is a Japanese game. Made by a Japanese company. One that happens to be biased towards the Japanese market. I get paid everytime I say Japanese. Japanese. Japanese. Japanese...

I'm aware as we all are but I don't think that means picks like Spyro and Scorpion can't happen and it shouldn't get in the way of speculation. Cloud, Sora and Banjo were all very unlikely at one point too for one reason or another.

A freelancer for the paychecks? His IPs were basically all HAL was making when he left that company, that could've retained a very steady source of income for him at a high level position in that company, as could having constructed Project Sora as more than a temporary developer.

Instead he left to make Meteos, and was dragged back for Brawl.

Also being a freelancer or not has nothing to do with having total autonomy on the projects he works on. He's always going to be partially beholden to the whims of where the money comes from. Though being freelance, he has the option to take jobs that give him more autonomy.

Sakurai is worth like 10 million dollars. I think he's probably doing better than the overwhelming majority at HAL if not all of them.

Saying on one hand he feels an obligation (ownership) over Smash and then characterizing it as him being dragged back for Brawl is inconsistent and very loaded language. I get that you want to highlight the fact that he could technically go somewhere else but if we're being logical it's overwhelmingly likely that he won't and it's a fact that his freelance status has thus far not been a factor in keeping him away from Nintendo.

I think Iwata, the guy that kept bringing him back under Nintendo, and built him a gestalt team for a single project, would've been happy to make more permanent accommodations for the man. I just don't think that's what Sakurai wanted.

I'm sure he would but since his next project was Smash 4 and it's pretty much guaranteed it's always one of his upcoming games if not the subsequent next one as was the case with 4-Ultimate then what comparative value would the Uprising team bring to the table that seasoned Bamco developers wouldn't also bring but to a much greater degree?

Good points in the argument for his freelance status.

Where am I making the argument that he's not a freelancer and can't technically go work on other platforms? I'm saying it's not likely based on past precedent and overall familiarity with the hardware and the organization that he won't. I don't even understand where the point of contention is. That I called his freelance status a technicality in the context of being under the assumption he'll stick with Nintendo? I'm saying that because it literally hasn't contributed to him going elsewhere yet and I doubt it will. I think with Nintendo Sakurai has more creative freedom than he would somewhere else. They'll probably let him create almost anything using any IP of theirs that he wants. They literally let him play their games and show him their hardware early.

No, it's not completely defined solely by his interactions through Iwata. Obviously he deals with many people in his position, and completed Ultimate almost entirely without Iwata. But Iwata was also the specific person who recruited him for every job at Nintendo after leaving HAL, and the two had a close professional relationship.

Without him, the dynamic is different. Not that that means he'll abandon Nintendo, just that the person who kept bringing him back isn't there anymore.

Sure but as I said other people that personally knew and got along with Iwata would be there. I'm sure other people at Nintendo have a working relationship with Sakurai with Ultimate and the DLC cycle, as you've pointed out, being a testament to that. Again he's also familiar with the organization itself. Sticking with what he knows is easier and his seniority status with the institution has its perks.

That's where he built his reputation, but it's not like he can't stand without it now. Being a desired freelance dev means he has a choice over which hardware and business he chooses to align with. It's not like he's only ever developed for one system, and his team is likely the ones that will provide the hardware expertise. In the past he's worked on systems that weren't even in their final state, with teams equally as green to them.

As for business, he already seems pretty deft at navigating between a myriad of different ones. Not many people can balance all those companies at once. For as skilled a developer as he is, he also seems to acutely understand business relations and inter-company negotiation.

On one hand you handwave his familiarity with Nintendo systems to his non-existent team and then on the other presume that he's where he is in regards to the ability to navigate third party companies negotiations due to his deftness and skill as if Nintendo isn't providing the legal team for him to even do that. Last time I checked Sakurai didn't have a degree in copyright law. All he literally does is represent Nintendo's ability to faithfully implement their intellectual property into Nintendo's exclusive game.

Of course it matters. Smash itself clearly prioritizes third-parties who have global appeal, and while it's not impossible to get one that skews heavily one way, that way being against Japan, with most of the games not even releasing there, is going to put a whole bunch of other candidates in a much more favorable, much more auspicious position.

All the more so when that character isn't even among the most popular in the regions they do have popularity. Picking Spyro over Crash is like picking Adam Jensen over Lara Croft.

This legitimately sounds just like the arguments against Banjo but of course now that it's happened it suddenly doesn't count or matter anymore.

If Crash gets in the support will IMMEDIATELY shift to Spyro. That's literally guaranteed to happen. Might be a decent proposition getting to kill 2 birds with 1 reveal owned by the same friendly third party especially if it's bundled. There's more to assessing the value of an inclusion than invoking Japan. A big reason to include Crash would be to include the definitive Playstation All-Star into the game. Spyro has that factor going for him too. They'd compliment each other's reveal extremely well. Crash getting in would get fans to go crazy in excitement and Spyro showing up would blow their collective minds in unison for how unexpected but completely justified (complimentary) the inclusion would be. It'd be in the top-tier of Smash reveals up there with the greats. There will be one extremely friendly third party to work with to make this happen. It can happen.

Again it's literally online speculation. I guess I should just not say anything because somebody will say it's unlikely? There's a myriad of speculation that's discussed with fewer prospects for inclusion than Spyro. It doesn't matter and never will though because those characters have their dedicated fans that deserve to promote their character.

Banjo was once the underdog and now he's in. Crash, even though he's still not in has reached a status of borderline-inevitable thanks to the push made by fans. Geno and Isaac would literally be nowhere without the fans' unwavering support.

 

[dream1ng]

Sakurai is worth like 10 million dollars. I think he's probably doing better than the overwhelming majority at HAL if not all of them.

...because Iwata brought him back to make blockbuster after blockbuster. When he left HAL, potentially to never work on or profit from Kirby or Smash Bros again, do you think that was a more stable future than remaining an executive at the company under which he created its two most profitable series?

Saying on one hand he feels an obligation (ownership) over Smash and then characterizing it as him being dragged back for Brawl is inconsistent and very loaded language. I get that you want to highlight the fact that he could technically go somewhere else but if we're being logical it's overwhelmingly likely that he won't and it's a fact that his freelance status has thus far not been a factor in keeping him away from Nintendo.

All you have to do is go through his own admissions to be able to reconcile these statements. Recently he's talked about Smash not being able to be done without him. Despite that, he left at one point, and they even tried to make the series without him, and it didn't work.

He didn't give a timeframe for when this failed attempt happened, but I suspect it was with Brawl, given that is the only time they announced a new Smash that he wasn't involved with from the very beginning. And then Iwata courted him back for the title.

I'm sure he would but since his next project was Smash 4 and it's pretty much guaranteed it's always one of his upcoming games if not the subsequent next one as was the case with 4-Ultimate then what comparative value would the Uprising team bring to the table that seasoned Bamco developers wouldn't also bring but to a much greater degree?

That's a fair question but not one that serves to demonstrate his exclusivity under Nintendo. More that he resists laying down roots, which is my point.

Where am I making the argument that he's not a freelancer and can't technically go work on other platforms? I'm saying it's not likely based on past precedent and overall familiarity with the hardware and the organization that he won't. I don't even understand where the point of contention is. That I called his freelance status a technicality in the context of being under the assumption he'll stick with Nintendo? I'm saying that because it literally hasn't contributed to him going elsewhere yet and I doubt it will. I think with Nintendo Sakurai has more creative freedom than he would somewhere else. They'll probably let him create almost anything using any IP of theirs that he wants. They literally let him play their games and show him their hardware early.

We disagree on how much of a technicality his freelance status is. I think, going forward, it's much likelier he chooses to work apart from Nintendo periodically than you do, which makes his freelance status much more substantial than some 'technicality'. Wherein you've posed his independence more as a formality. So I'm highlighting all the signs of how freelance his approach really is.

Sure but as I said other people that personally knew and got along with Iwata would be there. I'm sure other people at Nintendo have a working relationship with Sakurai with Ultimate and the DLC cycle, as you've pointed out, being a testament to that. Again he's also familiar with the organization itself. Sticking with what he knows is easier and his seniority status with the institution has its perks.

That last sentence is literally a reason he could've stayed at HAL, or looked for more permanent employment under Project Sora. This guy works on a new system with a new team almost every game. He left HAL over being tired of the monotonous output. Stability doesn't seem like his thing.

On one hand you handwave his familiarity with Nintendo systems to his non-existent team and then on the other presume that he's where he is in regards to the ability to navigate third party companies negotiations due to his deftness and skill as if Nintendo isn't providing the legal team for him to even do that. Last time I checked Sakurai didn't have a degree in copyright law. All he literally does is represent Nintendo's ability to faithfully implement their intellectual property into Nintendo's exclusive game.

This is quite the dichotomy you've presented. Sakurai is the one that has to be intimately familiar with how to best navigate the system architecture as if the team is meaningless, and yet the copyright lawyers, despite being interchangeable, are the ones crucial to acquiring the third-parties and Sakurai is more just some symbolic figurehead.

Of course Sakurai doesn't have a degree in copyright law, and no **** Nintendo's legal team has to be involved. But just send a copyright lawyer over to Disney and see if they give you Sora.

You've really flipped the script on importance here. Sakurai doesn't need to be a hardware engineer to realize the game, in part because the team will help lighten that load with their own expertise. Every game Sakurai makes is basically on hardware different from the last. He's adaptable. And yet, in this framing, Sakurai has been given a major backseat on brokering these deals, as if there aren't actual statements from the likes of Kojima, Nomura, Mayles, Harada, Horii, even Reggie, which illustrate Sakurai's leading role in negotiation.

This legitimately sounds just like the arguments against Banjo but of course now that it's happened it suddenly doesn't count or matter anymore.

This more speaks to peoples' unfamiliarity with Banjo's success in Japan. Scroll a couple posts up. The games were successful in Japan. It's a character whose demand might have skewed west, but whose success was global. He's not an exception. Hero, frankly, is the biggest exception.

If Crash gets in the support will IMMEDIATELY shift to Spyro. That's literally guaranteed to happen. Might be a decent proposition getting to kill 2 birds with 1 reveal owned by the same friendly third party especially if it's bundled.

Some of the demand will trickle down to Spyro, but Spyro isn't going to be able to catch on the same way as Crash. One of the main reasons that people have gotten so behind Crash is because he was a rare example of a western character that found success in Japan. Spyro doesn't have that. In fact, it's rather the opposite.

But also, just because one character gets in doesn't mean another of some relation will adopt all that popularity. Some will disseminate downwards, but it's also looking past that the characters that become popular usually become popular because of being that character. Crash is just a bigger character than Spyro is.

There's more to assessing the value of an inclusion than invoking Japan.

True. But Japan is nevertheless a crucial part of it, just as the west is a crucial part too, and makes characters like Arle and Goemon unlikely for similar but inverted reasons. Characters of lopsided appeal have a greater task to overcome those deficits.

A big reason to include Crash would be to include the definitive Playstation All-Star into the game. Spyro has that factor going for him too. They'd compliment each other's reveal extremely well. Crash getting in would get fans to go crazy in excitement and Spyro showing up would blow their collective minds in unison for how unexpected but completely justified (complimentary) the inclusion would be. It'd be in the top-tier of Smash reveals up there with the greats. There will be one extremely friendly third party to work with to make this happen. It can happen.

Well, Crash is perceived as a Playstation All-Star, but it's not actually new ground, considering Snake and Cloud were too. And yeah, Spyro would compliment Crash's reveal, but... that's not really a factor in inclusion.

Again it's literally online speculation. I guess I should just not say anything because somebody will say it's unlikely? There's a myriad of speculation that's discussed with fewer prospects for inclusion than Spyro. It doesn't matter and never will though because those characters have their dedicated fans that deserve to promote their character.

If they have worse prospects than Spyro it's probably not a huge amount of people advocating for them.

Banjo was once the underdog and now he's in. Crash, even though he's still not in has reached a status of borderline-inevitable thanks to the push made by fans. Geno and Isaac would literally be nowhere without the fans' unwavering support.

Banjo may have been an underdog, but one that did have success in Japan and a huge amount of fanbase support, and at that point you do have a decent shot to get in. So he's not a good example for any given western character, because most lack one or both of those qualities.

 

[Perkilator]

I wonder if Sakurai at least considered Crash, but Activision was more of a problem.

 

[fogbadge]

I wonder if Sakurai at least considered Crash, but Activision was more of a problem.

he does tell characters hes considered so perhaps we'll know one day

 

[Dinoman96]

The real problem with Crash was that, unlike , his Smash popularity didn't take off until like 2018. He needed to be popular back in 2015 during the Smash ballot where it really counted. Same thing with the other third parties that became popular requests in the Switch era, like Dante, Doomguy, Master Chief, etc

 

[HyperSomari64]

The real problem with Crash was that, unlike , his Smash popularity didn't take off until like 2018. He needed to be popular back in 2015 during the Smash ballot where it really counted. Same thing with the other third parties that became popular requests in the Switch era, like Dante, Doomguy, Master Chief, etc

Crash already had that, but it was a little bit less vocal during that time.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Crash already had that, but it was a little bit less vocal during that time.

That's the thing, less vocal.

Support for those four has been running rampant for years and years and years, with Ridley and K. Rool having the advantage of being first party characters, Banjo & Kazooie being highly associated with Nintendo for obvious reasons (plus being good associates with Microsoft in the open is certainly a factor) and Kingdom Hearts remaining an ever popular ongoing franchise that had Nintendo instalments, and while I believe "you must be associated with Nintendo" is a dumb statement, it regardless meant Sora had a fanbase amongst Nintendo consumers, and even then Sakurai had a lucky encounter with a Disney exec to make him a reality.

Crash on the other hand... While he has had plenty of Nintendo games, his glory days were much left behind him until his resurgence in the latter half of the 2010s; at most people were interested in the crossover GBA Spyro crossover as a curiosity, and Crash of the Titans because "redesigns sux!1!!", and unlike BK, his fanbase in the Nintendo sphere wasn't as big until the remakes.

A lot of people said "Crash in Smash would be cool", but it was more of a passing thought or accepted as an unlikely wish. Is there a chance he had happened? Surely, but the others had more advantage.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I feel like Crash requests only picked up once Banjo got in. Because there's a lot of fanbase overlap there, and they're kinda competing for the same audience. Now that Banjo is in, that audience has turned it's attention towards Crash.

Much like how the "NES Icons" fanbase was pretty much focused on Simon, and now that Simon is in, most of that support is now focused on Hayabusa.