Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ZeldaFan01]

My plan to play at least one game for every character in Smash is going well. Currently up to Yoshi on Twitch and just uploaded my first video with Mario on YouTube. I was also able to sort out solutions to some of the more challenging parts of this challenge.

NOT Amazon Pandora though.

 

[Geno Boost]

No additional KH character would be competing with a Square Enix owned character because they're owned by Disney (we literally just got Sephiroth AND Sora on the same pass lol).

As for Microsoft, Chief aside, I feel like the only characters you mentioned that really have any sort of notable demand for Smash are Crash and Doom Slayer. Fulgore, Battletoads, Kerrigan, etc just aren't drawing a crowd.

agreed Disney content is always a separate category the only characters i could see coming if there is gonna be another Disney rep would likely be Roxas as last minute echo or Club Penguin rep and thats only if Sora ends up returning in the next game.
also i find it funny when people dont mention a taito rep as a square-enix competitor as well we shouldnt be surprised if we get playable Space Invaders at some point in the future.

 

[NintenRob]

NOT Amazon Pandora though.

Well, no. But I will playing Kid Icarus Uprising when I get up to Dark Pit.

 

[chocolatejr9]

agreed Disney content is always a separate category the only characters i could see coming if there is gonna be another Disney rep would likely be Roxas as last minute echo or Club Penguin rep and thats only if Sora ends up returning in the next game.
also i find it funny when people dont mention a taito rep as a square-enix competitor as well we shouldnt be surprised if we get playable Space Invaders at some point in the future.

This might sound a bit weird, but while don't consider it a guarantee, I also think the idea of Sora coming back isn't as "out-there" as we might think. To put it bluntly, Disney likes money, and I wouldn't be shocked if the response to Sora's announcement made them realize that Smash was basically free real estate. That being said, how they would go about it is a bit uncertain. Would they let him be base game, or DLC? Will he be our only rep, or can we get characters like Roxas, Aqua, or even Xehenort? Could we get OTHER Disney games at some point, like Club Penguin? So many questions, so few answers...

But hey, this is assuming they see value in Smash at all. I'll admit, I tend to be a bit of an optimist sometimes.

 

[Chuderz]

I think what Subspace really is is Adventure Mode with cutscenes. I think a lot of what made the 2 modes great could be added to the current classic mode does.

In between fights you'll go to an appropriately themed Adventure Zone a couple of times. They'll be like Melee's Adventure Mode zones as in they'll be platforming courses. There will be an appropriately themed basic enemy grunt (for example Cloud's would be Shinra grunts and Sora's would be heartless) walking around ready to attack you and while these will take development it could be justified because they could all easily be retooled into Assist Trophies and Mii costumes where applicable. I imagine 2 or 3 of these zones per franchise as in the same theme but reformatted differently. Some of these Adventure Modes could be appropriately themed in function as well like the Metroid cast's being escape (timed) sequences like they were in Melee. Characters like Yoshi, Wario and Donkey Kong would get their own. Almost every franchise could get a boss battle as well and again while this might take development it could be justified because they could be retooled into Assist Trophies too just like Rathalos. I always circle back to Cloud so his boss fight would be Jenova final form with the accompanying banger track. These themed boss fights wouldn't be the final fight as it'd always end with either Master and Crazy hand if you cleared the route on a high enough difficulty.

Classic we could significantly expanded upon to fit all of this extra content.


To tie this all together there will be a beginning and ending cutscenes at least. Maybe a middle cutscene and maybe also a final short bonus cutscene after the credits behind some difficulty criteria. This criteria would be something like beating the route on the highest difficulty without having to retry to get the privilege to fight an appropriate level-9 CPU challenger after beating Master and Crazy hand for the bonus post-credits cutscene. Some example scenarios for this could be Cloud and Sora have theirs being Sephiroth and for Sephiroth it'd be Cloud. Another example could be Mewtwo for all the Pokemon except for Mewtwo himself with his being Pokemon Trainer. Odder characters like ROB and Mr.Game & Watch could fight each other and maybe some more humorous ones like Banjo and Duck Hunt fighting each other for this encounter.

Winning this encounter would not only net you a bonus cutscene but a legendary costume as well that you could show off online as a testament to your supposed skill with the character.

The only thing really lost with all of this would be the "crossover element" people seem to love but I think what I've proposed would be a superior single-player for most players. This could also be addressed by having these cutscenes feature other cast members in some way maybe even leading into the next fight. Echo fighters and their appropriate base characters would always be featured together. Then there are the pallet swaps making this design a bit of a hassle too. Best way to get around this is to just use the default appearance with exceptions made for Hero, Bowser Jr. and Olimar by having their cutscenes feature these costume changes as separate characters altogether for their cutscenes by basically having them all (portrayed by the cutscenes) go on their classic route journey together.

My final idea would be to have a return of a Break the Targets and Board the Platform stage as well by adding both of these features to Stage Builder. Maybe even fused into one level. The developers could make 1 for every character again or test like 10-20 of them using all the characters and just have one randomly queued in that way.

 

[MeteoRain]

I feel like one of the characters that was included with Kazuya's Mii was has a good shot, since they were singled out as being popular characters who they weren't able to include this time. (unless I'm misremembering what was said)

Not sure about Lloyd (since that could have just as easily been the result of him being the last returning Mii costume and being from the same company as Kazuya), but Shantae, the Dragonborn, or Dante seem plausible, at least.

Maybe Doomguy or Octoling; I'm not sure if they fall into the same category. (since they were seemingly made into Mii costumes at the last possible minute - it could have been for similar reasons as Kazuya's wave, or it could have been because they were easy Mii costumes to include on such a short notice)

From an underdog perspective, I feel like Arthur is plausible as well. Especially with how Sakurai himself seemed pretty enthusiastic with Ghost n Goblins getting in Ultimate in practically any form.

 

[ZeldaFan01]

After replaying Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath of Cortex (I fall for it ALL over again), I would LOVE to see Crash & Coco grace the !!! I tend to forget about them, but they would certainly be ideal characters. I'd vote for them first before Spring Man & Ribbon Girl to be quite honest.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'd acknowledge that Cloud and Joker's Nintendo appearances are some pretty extreme forms of reaching. Sometimes, though, the other side does go a bit too far. A lot of people, to this day even, try to claim that Snake is a Sony character (especially since he mostly represents the Metal Gear Solid series and not the original Metal Gear, which was itself not really Nintendo-focused aside from a lousy port of an MSX title). However, they seem to conveniently forget that The Twin Snakes (a Game Cube-exclusive remake of the first MGS) was a thing not long before he blew up the internet in Brawl's trailer.

IIRC, people tend to not count it because it's a remake (so this is just a case of double standards) or simply forget that it exists because that game is that deeply tied to the PS1.

After replaying Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath of Cortex (I fall for it ALL over again), I would LOVE to see Crash & Coco grace the !!! I tend to forget about them, but they would certainly be ideal characters. I'd vote for them first before Spring Man & Ribbon Girl to be quite honest.

While I agree Crash would be really great for Smash... let's just hope the whole Activision Blizzard issues are solved before the next Smash gets planned because otherwise Nintendo wouldn't touch that IP with a 10 foot pole.

 

[Blackwolf666]

I’ve said my opinion a few times in other places but the things that I want from the next smash are a break the targets maker, updated smash run, better online connectivity, melee style adventure mode with branching paths (doesn’t need to tell a grand story with several cutscenes imo but would not mind if they threw a few cutscenes in there)

what I want them to keep: tourney, arenas, stage builder and the small quality of life changes such as a close up if an attack looks like it’s going to end the game and the large pngs of the fighters just before a match starts.

new fighters: what smash game would be complete without new characters? Personally would enjoy Bandanna Waddle Dee, Shantae, cranky Kong, Dixie Kong, Doom Slayer, Kratos, Crash, Isaac and the list goes on

 

[Sucumbio]

So after buying the expansion pack and trying out Shining Force I wonder if Smash could see a Shining character join the cast. I am still very new to the series but after researching there's tons of games and whatnot.

 

[Vintage Creep]

I think the only character capable of breaking the internet more than Ultimate did is a character from GTA.
It makes sense to be honest, it's one of the biggest franchises ever made, CJ for example would be extremely cool.
Just make it goofier like they did with Snake and obviously don't include any mature content like sex and stuff, and it should work.

Anyway, Smash's next biggest pull is obviously Crash Bandicoot imho.

 

[fogbadge]

you know what i think smash could do with? more references to the game boy camera. like maybe a stage set on a huge version of the game boy printer with the camera in the background which takes pictures of things off screen then the printer prints them off as extra platforms

 

[GilTheGreat19]

To be honest, I don't think any character that's never been on Nintendo consoles have a chance.

Numerous fan rule have been broken.

Could only be a matter of time before this one does as well. Whos knows lol

 

[ZeldaFan01]

I think the only character capable of breaking the internet more than Ultimate did is a character from GTA.
It makes sense to be honest, it's one of the biggest franchises ever made, CJ for example would be extremely cool.
Just make it goofier like they did with Snake and obviously don't include any mature content like sex and stuff, and it should work.

Anyway, Smash's next biggest pull is obviously Crash Bandicoot imho.

lOW!ell, The Last Story (2012) "... I could go either way to be honest."
I've only played San Andreas & this already sounds just perfect then. Idk about the Flying Car mechanic though... Shulk "I just don't know", lol
& about Chash Bandicoot "I agree. "

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Honestly in terms of new modes, this is the kind of stuff I would love.

• Break the Targets returns, with a Break the Targets themed around each character's strengths. Mario and Young Link in Melee were great examples of forcing you to learn more about the character to beat the stage. Honestly though, out of every little thing I would like to see this is one of the least likely. Even if you are just re using assets, it requires making a targets stage for every character, which is a lot of work.
• All Star mode returns in its older format. Instead of being one long gauntlet match, it has the rest area. You could make it ordered but honestly I would just randomize it.
• Boss Battles returns. Honestly this one is easy if you are already making boss battles. Just make the waiting area and maybe make a few more bosses and you can easily make boss rush a thing.
• Race to the finish gets fleshed out more. The course in Ultimate is kinda short and there is just not enough variety to it. I would like something like Melee's with branching paths. Maybe make the chasing darkness be faster depending on the character

Honestly for single player content I am easy to please. In terms of multiplayer modes I think honestly all you really need is a Smash Run. Smashdown and Squad Strike are a blast, and honestly I do not have many ideas of what new stuff to do.

 

[Ivander]

So after buying the expansion pack and trying out Shining Force I wonder if Smash could see a Shining character join the cast. I am still very new to the series but after researching there's tons of games and whatnot.

Incredibly unlikely. And even then, the character would likely be very decisive. Alot of Smash fans are oldies and in terms of the Shining series, the games most oldies remember is Shining Force 1 and 2 on Genesis. Whereas the most recent games have been the Action games, like Shining Tears, Force EXA, the PSP games and Shining Resonance, which I've never seen the games themselves ever really talked about. And so far, Sega and the newest Shining team have just been focusing on the Action games, with the only bone being thrown for Shining Force itself is a mobile game, called Shining Force: Heroes of Light and Darkness, that's being done by either a Chinese team or Korean team(and so far, has no release date nor any mentions of it coming to the West).

Basically, while I believe there is a notable fanbase in Japan for the Action games, I have not seen any of the Action games themselves really talked about in the West and the majority of the West's popularity I've seen are focused on the Shining Force games. Basically, any character they could choose for the Shining series would be a very decisive character in general. If you choose a character from the Action games, the West would have a meltdown on who the heck the character is(not to mention the fact that some of the Action games' art and character designs are done by a notable hentai artist, which Pyra and Mythra have been slammed for) whereas if Shining Force is picked, Japan might be just as unhappy that it wasn't a character from the Action games, whose characters seem to be more known in Japan than SF's characters.

I can't really see the Shining series get a character in Smash unless it gets a new game(brand new or remake) that really hits with both Japanese and Western players. That's not even mentioning it would be competing with Yakuza, Puyo Puyo, Phantasy Star, and other Sega series. Mii Costumes, maybe. But a character? Not for a looooong time.

 

[osby]

the West would have a meltdown on who the heck the character is

To be fair, that already happens for 9 out of 10 JRPG characters we get.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

So after buying the expansion pack and trying out Shining Force I wonder if Smash could see a Shining character join the cast. I am still very new to the series but after researching there's tons of games and whatnot.

Honestly if they went with a sega RPG that has a fanbase and is historically important, they probably would just go with Phantasy Star at that point. I would honestly say bet on someone like Alis instead of betting on anything Shining.

 

[chocolatejr9]

To be fair, that already happens for 9 out of 10 JRPG characters we get.

I'm still mad they called Pyra "another Fire Emblem character"...

 

[fogbadge]

I'm still mad they called Pyra "another Fire Emblem character"...

really? Wow

 

[Ivander]

To be fair, that already happens for 9 out of 10 JRPG characters we get.

I'd say more about 5 out of 10. Like, sure it's a 9 out of 10 when it comes to the fact that there will always be someone who goes, "Who?" But in terms of amount of people who know and don't know.

• Marth and Roy, certainly. Ness and Lucas to some degree too.
• Ike, Chrom, Robin, Lucina and Shulk were definitely known by a good amount of people. Especially in the Awakening characters' cases where an Awakening character was pretty much expected to happen.
• Just next to everyone knew Cloud and Sephiroth, whether from Final Fantasy itself or Kingdom Hearts.
• Rex, Pyra and Mythra were expected, especially since Sakurai mentioned he wanted a Xenoblade 2 character. And considering how much Xenoblade 2 was mocked for the designs and dialogue, I'm pretty sure even people who didn't play Xenoblade 2 would've knew them by others constantly mocking them.

I'm still mad they called Pyra "another Fire Emblem character"...

Positive that's more wilful ignorance on their part, since Fire Emblem is practically the "Go to hate" series of Smash at this point. Don't know this character? Must be a Fire Emblem character since I don't like them. Anyway...

• Joker was certainly not unknown when he and Persona 5 were at the peak of their popularity when he was revealed.
• Sora was voted the most requested character of the Smash Ballot, so he's obviously not unknown.
• Corrin, Byleth and Hero were pretty much, if you knew them, you knew them. If you didn't, you didn't.

Like of course you're always going to have that one person go "Who?" when it comes to JRPG and even other character in general. But from a comparison between people who know and people who don't, I'd say a good amount of JRPG characters were much more known before their reveal. The Shining series would absolutely be a case of the West really not knowing who the characters from the action games are since the games really don't get attention over here.
Like almost anytime the Shining series is brought up over here, it's almost always about Shining Force more so than the recent games. I've seen next to no one talk about anything from the Action games aside from Sega-dedicated discussions. And it's certainly not a common game series in Smash speculation compared to some other Sega series like Yakuza, Puyo Puyo, Phantasy Star and Shin Megami Tensei.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It is notable that Pyra/Mythra got far less backlash than Byleth overall, and for many reasons.

-The disappointment for some was softened via coming in a Direct that had news about upcoming Switch titles
-Xenoblade didn't at all feel overrepresented in terms of characters like some feel about FE
-There was no big rumor or pattern that speculators were looking at to suggest a big third party (like Dante circa January 2020)
-Byleth's reveal in a sense prepared many that the Pass would include recent first party characters so their inclusion wasn't a major shock
-Even among JRPG weapon users, the aesthetics and central gimmick of Pyra/Mythra made them feel more distinct to a lot of people

It's telling that most frequent negative reaction seen to the Xenoblade pairing seemed to be more shrugging indifference than active antipathy, which can't be said for Byleth, certainly.

 

[Ivander]

It is notable that Pyra/Mythra got far less backlash than Byleth overall, and for many reasons.

-The disappointment for some was softened via coming in a Direct that had news about upcoming Switch titles
-Xenoblade didn't at all feel overrepresented in terms of characters like some feel about FE
-There was no big rumor or pattern that speculators were looking at to suggest a big third party (like Dante circa January 2020)
-Byleth's reveal in a sense prepared many that the Pass would include recent first party characters so their inclusion wasn't a major shock
-Even among JRPG weapon users, the aesthetics and central gimmick of Pyra/Mythra made them feel more distinct to a lot of people

It's telling that most frequent negative reaction seen to the Xenoblade pairing seemed to be more shrugging indifference than active antipathy, which can't be said for Byleth, certainly.

It's really sad that at this point, it's just natural to expect alot of negativity to a Fire Emblem character. Like I won't deny that Byleth was a bit of a "not reading the room" moment when they were following four 3rd-Party characters, although really, it's just very unfortunate that Byleth came at a time when people's hype was off the rockers, with the only thing really saving them from pure-unadulterated hatred was that it wasn't the End of the DLC in general.

But it's like, man, for the next Smash game, I'd like to see a Fire Emblem character that actually impresses people quite decently. Like sure, it won't work for everyone, including the ones trying to incite hatred But just seeing a Fire Emblem character get even a moderately-positive and impressed reaction from a good number of people would be a win for it.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

A lot of that might come down to simply being interesting mechanically. Many people simply aren't fans of tactical RPG's, and having a character from a prominent one in and of itself will never excite them. But a gimmick/feature to them that's intriguing and offers something genuinely different as a fighter can quell a lot of instinctual dismissal. I barely played Minecraft and Steve's reveal was just weird to me, however seeing their quirks and finally playing as them had me do a complete 180, and he's now one of my favorites.

For some, the right FE fighter could do the same.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But it's like, man, for the next Smash game, I'd like to see a Fire Emblem character that actually impresses people quite decently. Like sure, it won't work for everyone, including the ones trying to incite hatred But just seeing a Fire Emblem character get even a moderately-positive and impressed reaction from a good number of people would be a win for it.

Pretty much the only way for that to happen is for the next Smash game to NOT be a port of Ultimate. Part of people's hatred of Byleth was because they hated Corrin for being FE rep number 6, and because Everyone Is Here and they added Chrom, that means Byleth is number 8.

 

[Dinoman96]

It's telling that most frequent negative reaction seen to the Xenoblade pairing seemed to be more shrugging indifference than active antipathy, which can't be said for Byleth, certainly.

tbh there's a lot of active antipathy against Pythra at certain places like ResetERA purely because of their character designs. So many people have gotten banned there because of arguments regarding XB2 and its character designs, it's a very controversial and touchy subject.

Check out the reveal thread: https://www.resetera.com/threads/py...smash-bros-ultimate-releases-in-march.380187/

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So after buying the expansion pack and trying out Shining Force I wonder if Smash could see a Shining character join the cast. I am still very new to the series but after researching there's tons of games and whatnot.

https://smashboards.com/threads/pla...ad-round-102-max-shining-force.515652/page-10 We're actually discussing him right now in this thread.

An amnesiac hero that isn't just a silent protagonist(which plays a role in the remake).

 

[Wonder Smash]

Numerous fan rule have been broken.

Could only be a matter of time before this one does as well. Whos knows lol

This one isn't really a fan rule, though. It's based on Sakurai's comments.

 

[Ivander]

A lot of that might come down to simply being interesting mechanically. Many people simply aren't fans of tactical RPG's, and having a character from a prominent one in and of itself will never excite them. But a gimmick/feature to them that's intriguing and offers something genuinely different as a fighter can quell a lot of instinctual dismissal. I barely played Minecraft and Steve's reveal was just weird to me, however seeing their quirks and finally playing as them had me do a complete 180, and he's now one of my favorites.

For some, the right FE fighter could do the same.

I'm not sure how they will impress if they mostly stick to the same settings of fantasy kingdoms with the Fire Emblem main games. I mean, it would certainly be something if they looked at some of the settings in Fire Emblem Heroes, or that one proposed concept setting for Fire Emblem Awakening where it was going to take place on Mars, and used ideas from those for the next mainline Fire Emblem game. Book 5 from Fire Emblem Heroes in particular had a really cool setting with the steampunk-setting Nioavellir and the Seiðjárn, a type of Mecha Armor that wields weapons like Swords, Axes and Spears and also uses missiles and gunfire. And how one of the villains even used a gun-like weapon for magic.

And one of the big fights was facing a king transformed into a giant Mecha Dragon.

Like some of these things would be awesome to see for a mainline Fire Emblem game. Like imagine revealing a character from this kind of setting to Smash Bros. to an audience confused as heck on what they are from only to find out, "Wait, that is a Fire Emblem character? Where's the Fire Emblem in them?"

 

[fogbadge]

But it's like, man, for the next Smash game, I'd like to see a Fire Emblem character that actually impresses people quite decently. Like sure, it won't work for everyone, including the ones trying to incite hatred But just seeing a Fire Emblem character get even a moderately-positive and impressed reaction from a good number of people would be a win for it.

i dont think theres anyway that can happen. not matter how different they are from the others id say the fandom will not be happy as long as they have that little falchion icon next to them. not unless they can trick people into thinking theyre a non FE character. although that may not work as FE doesnt have much in the way of sub series

A lot of that might come down to simply being interesting mechanically. Many people simply aren't fans of tactical RPG's, and having a character from a prominent one in and of itself will never excite them. But a gimmick/feature to them that's intriguing and offers something genuinely different as a fighter can quell a lot of instinctual dismissal. I barely played Minecraft and Steve's reveal was just weird to me, however seeing their quirks and finally playing as them had me do a complete 180, and he's now one of my favorites.

For some, the right FE fighter could do the same.

i dunno, byleth and corrin are plenty unique and they still have the stigma. im not sure theres any gimmick that could be enough for them. the stigma of the FE characters is strong that none of the usual things that make a character appeal to a person seems to work for them.

 

[dream1ng]

It's really sad that at this point, it's just natural to expect alot of negativity to a Fire Emblem character. Like I won't deny that Byleth was a bit of a "not reading the room" moment when they were following four 3rd-Party characters, although really, it's just very unfortunate that Byleth came at a time when people's hype was off the rockers, with the only thing really saving them from pure-unadulterated hatred was that it wasn't the End of the DLC in general.

But it's like, man, for the next Smash game, I'd like to see a Fire Emblem character that actually impresses people quite decently. Like sure, it won't work for everyone, including the ones trying to incite hatred But just seeing a Fire Emblem character get even a moderately-positive and impressed reaction from a good number of people would be a win for it.

That's probably only going to happen if two situations converge, the first being a roster revamp that significantly trims the roster, and the second being getting a fan-favorite character, which for FE, is basically just Lyn. At this point FE has left a bitter taste in peoples' mouths that seeing the count decrease will not be poorly received, and even with cuts, getting the newest character will probably generate, at best, a fairly lukewarm reception.

You need the fanbase to age out of its FE distaste, which will probably only happen by bringing it more in line with the count of series around its level of success and then waiting for however long until the zeitgeist reflects that parity. That might not happen until Smash 7. You'd be able to expedite that process with another series becoming the one that takes fire for overrepresentation though, just as FE took the heat off of Kid Icarus.

 

[Yamat08]

I think it would be cool if we got a spinoff Smash game that's basically just a single player adventure game with a lot of cutscenes. Think Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks but obviously without all the violence.

I at least want a game where that’s the main focus. I’d love a super expansive mode like Subspace Emissary that I could play co-op with my brother and see all of the characters actually interacting together in some meaningful way. I feel like Sakurai gave up on the idea too easily rather than work on improving it. It was a little rough around the edges at first but I feel like it had potential to be something truly amazing if they worked on the parts that weren’t quite as strong and emphasized what was great about the mode.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind Adventure Mode being a separate game you'd have to purchase. While it's quite a departure from Smash's core fighting mechanics, I'd say it has enough of a niche demand that it could make for a worthwhile release. And in this day and age, it should be really easy to have it share the same DLC as Ultimate and have their save files interact.

I have seen many people wax nostalgic about the gameplay itself, so it obviously had its fans, but I do agree that some of its high regard is still there because the idea of it is so good and the cutscenes were executed well enough that they still resonate with people.

I will say that the freedom to take any character through formerly fighter specific levels would be a fine unlockable for a new SSE because there the novelty of such an experience would be paired with the initial stronger playthrough with the proper fighter. It wouldn't entirely address the sheer workload of designing so many levels to fit so many characters (to the point where an episodic release of Subspace content almost makes sense), but it'd be something.

If you think about it, isn't that kinda what Subspace was in the first place? You play through every stage (except the infamous Great Maze) with a limited selection of 1-5 characters, and then you have the freedom to play it with just anybody afterwards. I remember one YouTube review ragging on about Subspace's level design, and one example they pointed to was the platform-placement in one of the early cloud stages....... specifically pointing to Bowser as being why those platforms exist. Seems rather disengenuous when you consider that Bowser isn't even available until the end game, with those stages initially being played by Mario, Pit, Kirby, and either Peach or Zelda/Shiek, all characters who have pretty good aerial maneuverability (I also felt like that review was blatantly ignoring the fact that literally every character is capable of a double jump..... like, as far as I'm aware, even the worst aerial characters in Smash is at least capable of some decent vertical height, with even Steve compensating with the blocks).

Incidentally, this was something I really loved about Subspace: much like a lot of 2D platformers that came about after battery saves grew more commonplace, you have the freedom to replay any stage you've already completed as you please, pretty much giving you one big stage-select menu (in the form of a world map) by the very end. If we went back to something like Melee's Adventure, I'd lament the fact that we've gone back to short, arcade-style romps, though I'd still be okay with it so long as we could have this kind of freedom again after completing the mode at least once, as opposed to having to do 7 stages in a specific order before you can do the F-Zero segment again (and don't make half the stages just be standard vs. matches anyway).

That being said... I do think that people do romanticize Subspace a lot. Like, the basic gameplay is flawed due to the fact that plenty of characters are just bad at platforming. True, you will have other options usually when playing through these areas, but it does sting that you have characters like Ike or Ganon who just are a slog to use when most of the gameplay is platforming.

Just like Bowser, Ganondorf wasn't available until the end game anyhow. He might as well have just been a hard mode option. As for Ike, you're never really forced to play with him, as all of his segments in the initial playthrough are complemented by the extremely mobile Marth and Metaknight as options.

Honestly in terms of new modes, this is the kind of stuff I would love.

• Break the Targets returns, with a Break the Targets themed around each character's strengths. Mario and Young Link in Melee were great examples of forcing you to learn more about the character to beat the stage. Honestly though, out of every little thing I would like to see this is one of the least likely. Even if you are just re using assets, it requires making a targets stage for every character, which is a lot of work.
• All Star mode returns in its older format. Instead of being one long gauntlet match, it has the rest area. You could make it ordered but honestly I would just randomize it.
• Boss Battles returns. Honestly this one is easy if you are already making boss battles. Just make the waiting area and maybe make a few more bosses and you can easily make boss rush a thing.
• Race to the finish gets fleshed out more. The course in Ultimate is kinda short and there is just not enough variety to it. I would like something like Melee's with branching paths. Maybe make the chasing darkness be faster depending on the character

Honestly for single player content I am easy to please. In terms of multiplayer modes I think honestly all you really need is a Smash Run. Smashdown and Squad Strike are a blast, and honestly I do not have many ideas of what new stuff to do.

I think Ultimate's All-Star is a bit understandable given the massive number of characters there are now (more so since it's barely even required for 100% completion..... hell, you barely even need to touch the thing for the challenges). Though, I wouldn't mind it going back to the way it was if they could manage to find a way to curb the difficulty properly while still making the whole roster not seem too time-consuming. Also, don't do stuff like totally gimping player characters that use projectiles while allowing CPU projectiles to completely one-shot you (or better yet, DON'T give us absolutely BS challenges like having to do the friggin' thing on Hard difficulty with every character again..... I can never express enough how even my half-finished attempt at 100%ing Smash WiiU almost drove me insane).

I think a rather easy solution to Break The Targets would be to just allow us to make them in Stage Builder. Race To The Finish could work the same way. Like, they literally don't need to design anything in that regard, just give us the tools and let us and the community at large go at it ourselves.

Yes on Boss Battles. It's still a wonder why we couldn't even get the thing in Ultimate (and I am NOT counting Sephiroth's Classic route). To expand on the idea, they should've allowed us both the gauntlet option, and letting us challenge each boss individually (perhaps with a difficulty slider to replicate their Classic encounters). Would've also been cool if DLC could've allowed the addition of more bosses who don't show up anywhere else in the game, maybe even restoring all the Subspace bosses and Master Core (with Master Fortress, perhaps?), or we could get a proper arena to go 1-on-1 with stage bosses like Metal Face.

Pretty much the only way for that to happen is for the next Smash game to NOT be a port of Ultimate. Part of people's hatred of Byleth was because they hated Corrin for being FE rep number 6, and because Everyone Is Here and they added Chrom, that means Byleth is number 8.

Here's the thing, though: if New Fire Emblem Lord gets in solely by virtue of the fact that they freed up a few archetypes (and their moveset is completely uninspired as a result, which is something that Corrin and Byleth at least made an honest attempt to avoid), you'll have people complaining about why the cuts were necessary in the first place. Also, if we somehow manage to get a second Everyone Is Here title after doing cuts (or they just restore cut characters as DLC.... which is exactly what happened with Roy, incidentally), you're gonna end up with an expanded Fire Emblem cast on the roster anyway. I wouldn't doubt that New Fire Emblem Lord is almost innevitable by this point, but I don't think freeing up the roster would necessarily make their reception any better.

 

[Guynamednelson]

f New Fire Emblem Lord gets in solely by virtue of the fact that they freed up a few archetypes

For one thing, that wouldn't be why a new FE lord got in. Byleth's purpose wasn't to subvert the sword-swinging cliches of your typical FE character, it was just to promote 3H.

 

[ZeldaFan01]

For one thing, that wouldn't be why a new FE lord got in. Byleth's purpose wasn't to subvert the sword-swinging cliches of your typical FE character, it was just to promote 3H.

"Team Battle.!" Against the Black Knight... (SSBB)

 

[fogbadge]

For one thing, that wouldn't be why a new FE lord got in. Byleth's purpose wasn't to subvert the sword-swinging cliches of your typical FE character, it was just to promote 3H.

no it was cause sakurai loves FE

 

[Digital Hazard]

Honestly if there's anyone to blame for the FE protagoists being mostly sword-wielding bluenettes, that's Intelligent Systems.

And it's not like they have to change that given they do not develop the next FE with Smash in mind, 6 out of the 8 fighters we got were just there at the right time for them (plus Lucina having the advantage of having been an actual alt costume that was changed).

 

[kiteinthesky]

Geno will be playable in the next Smash, calling it now.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind Adventure Mode being a separate game you'd have to purchase. While it's quite a departure from Smash's core fighting mechanics, I'd say it has enough of a niche demand that it could make for a worthwhile release. And in this day and age, it should be really easy to have it share the same DLC as Ultimate and have their save files interact.


If you think about it, isn't that kinda what Subspace was in the first place? You play through every stage (except the infamous Great Maze) with a limited selection of 1-5 characters, and then you have the freedom to play it with just anybody afterwards. I remember one YouTube review ragging on about Subspace's level design, and one example they pointed to was the platform-placement in one of the early cloud stages....... specifically pointing to Bowser as being why those platforms exist. Seems rather disengenuous when you consider that Bowser isn't even available until the end game, with those stages initially being played by Mario, Pit, Kirby, and either Peach or Zelda/Shiek, all characters who have pretty good aerial maneuverability (I also felt like that review was blatantly ignoring the fact that literally every character is capable of a double jump..... like, as far as I'm aware, even the worst aerial characters in Smash is at least capable of some decent vertical height, with even Steve compensating with the blocks).

Incidentally, this was something I really loved about Subspace: much like a lot of 2D platformers that came about after battery saves grew more commonplace, you have the freedom to replay any stage you've already completed as you please, pretty much giving you one big stage-select menu (in the form of a world map) by the very end. If we went back to something like Melee's Adventure, I'd lament the fact that we've gone back to short, arcade-style romps, though I'd still be okay with it so long as we could have this kind of freedom again after completing the mode at least once, as opposed to having to do 7 stages in a specific order before you can do the F-Zero segment again (and don't make half the stages just be standard vs. matches anyway).


Just like Bowser, Ganondorf wasn't available until the end game anyhow. He might as well have just been a hard mode option. As for Ike, you're never really forced to play with him, as all of his segments in the initial playthrough are complemented by the extremely mobile Marth and Metaknight as options.


I think Ultimate's All-Star is a bit understandable given the massive number of characters there are now (more so since it's barely even required for 100% completion..... hell, you barely even need to touch the thing for the challenges). Though, I wouldn't mind it going back to the way it was if they could manage to find a way to curb the difficulty properly while still making the whole roster not seem too time-consuming. Also, don't do stuff like totally gimping player characters that use projectiles while allowing CPU projectiles to completely one-shot you (or better yet, DON'T give us absolutely BS challenges like having to do the friggin' thing on Hard difficulty with every character again..... I can never express enough how even my half-finished attempt at 100%ing Smash WiiU almost drove me insane).

I think a rather easy solution to Break The Targets would be to just allow us to make them in Stage Builder. Race To The Finish could work the same way. Like, they literally don't need to design anything in that regard, just give us the tools and let us and the community at large go at it ourselves.

Yes on Boss Battles. It's still a wonder why we couldn't even get the thing in Ultimate (and I am NOT counting Sephiroth's Classic route). To expand on the idea, they should've allowed us both the gauntlet option, and letting us challenge each boss individually (perhaps with a difficulty slider to replicate their Classic encounters). Would've also been cool if DLC could've allowed the addition of more bosses who don't show up anywhere else in the game, maybe even restoring all the Subspace bosses and Master Core (with Master Fortress, perhaps?), or we could get a proper arena to go 1-on-1 with stage bosses like Metal Face.


Here's the thing, though: if New Fire Emblem Lord gets in solely by virtue of the fact that they freed up a few archetypes (and their moveset is completely uninspired as a result, which is something that Corrin and Byleth at least made an honest attempt to avoid), you'll have people complaining about why the cuts were necessary in the first place. Also, if we somehow manage to get a second Everyone Is Here title after doing cuts (or they just restore cut characters as DLC.... which is exactly what happened with Roy, incidentally), you're gonna end up with an expanded Fire Emblem cast on the roster anyway. I wouldn't doubt that New Fire Emblem Lord is almost innevitable by this point, but I don't think freeing up the roster would necessarily make their reception any better.

I wonder if a release model like Halo Infinite could work where the campaign would be a whole separate purchase from the multiplayer. I don’r think they could get away with making Smash’s multiplayer free like Halo but they could use that rough idea and use something that works for them. Even if each half was its own $40 game and the total price ended up higher it could be interesting although obviously not ideal.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think every Mii costume should've came with a spirit. Hopefully, if they're still making new spirit battles, all of them will have one.

 

[Chuderz]

I agree with parts of this, disagree with other parts.

I do think that Star Fox is an IP with untapped potential and the notoriety of the brand can only reduce the risk factor. I also agree that many people would be highly interested to see more character development/interaction, more lore/world-building, something other than just 64's story recycled over and over, etc. And I agree that a fully on-rails Star Fox is probably not the most self-beneficial direction for the series, although certainly on-rails segments can still be incorporated. Star Fox has seen a mix of flying, driving, submarining, and on-foot missions, meaning it wouldn't even be much of a stretch to see the series go for some genre hybridism. Lastly, you're right that sci-fi doesn't need to be ultra-gritty or realistic to be successful.

Hey thanks for replying! I appreciate that we agree on some aspects of the future for the series.

I do not, however, necessarily think that "AAA budget" and "make it open-world" are immediate solutions. It would be ultra-important that they get the core gameplay right in the midst of going through such a potentially major genre shift; as such, they might be better served trying something a little more reined-in first, like PKMN did with Legends. Maybe even a mostly-scripted narrative but with the appropriate amount of focus on combat and exploration/adventure to fit their vision for the series. Plus, I don't think just copying a hodge-podge of mechanics from other games is necessarily going to make Star Fox stand out; it might sound great on paper, but Nintendo has always strived to be the inventors rather than just followers of industry trends. I wouldn't want them to short-change Star Fox's potential for original gameplay, whatever that might be.

I do think some of your bulleted ideas could work in different capacities, although I don't know if we're headed for a game that expansive any time soon. Some sort of loop that incorporates all three of open-space, on-foot, and vehicle combat/adventure could definitely be strong, but they need to pick the right balance between having a well-defined core focus/direction and taking advantage of the diverse gameplay options available.

Well when I make these "pitches" I'm mostly just typing out my ideal so I end up taking it pretty far. I mostly just want to imagine the possibilities. Sometimes I try to keep in the "realm of realism" but only so far as to strengthen a point I'm trying to make because I don't see the point in doing that otherwise because this kind of post is mostly for fun.

Anyways I think that Star Fox doesn't have a lot of opportunities left. The franchise might have absolutely none if I'm being totally honest which would be an absolute shame and failure on the part of Nintendo, not the series. I think if the series does have any chances left that it almost definitely doesn't have any modest attempts at those chances left ala a Star Fox Assault style game. Pokemon can afford to take all that time in the world to slowly incorporate long overdue (at an insulting pace in my honest opinion) gameplay features/elements to their games because they're the biggest franchise of all time with guaranteed sales. I really think that while the series has this potential I've illustrated with my words that it's borderline at a point where it must go big or go home. You have to crack an egg to make an omelet after all.

Star Fox has the potential to be Nintendo's big sci-fi open-world game. I think they should go for it not only for the series' health and potential future, not only because it has been a proven model across the industry (sci-fi open-world/fantasy open-world) but because it has unique gameplay opportunities inherent to the series, a whole world of lore to build with an established foundation and recognizable (thanks to Smash and the success of the older games) cast of characters and loads of potential for mainstream appeal with its colorful world.

Also wouldn't this adhere to the roots of the series more? Star Fox started out as a fantastical tech demo for the SNES. Let's harken back to by having it push the tech of the Super Switch Successor console!

There would definitely need to strike a balance and have each element of gameplay positively loop into the other seamlessly to get the feel right. I agree but that's just basic good game design and in my imagination, they manage to do that as a default assumption of mine.

It should still have a single-player mode, though. Even Splatoon, Nintendo's answer to the competitive shooter genre, has that.

Yes of course just like Battlefront does! I imagine it'd be a great vehicle for telling Star Fox stories. I actually originally pitched it as a multiplayer tag on to my big expansive open-world single-player pitch but then I realized that this multiplayer was a separate game entirely with its own balancing/game-design needs that couldn't be reconciled with the big single-player pitch I was making. Hence why I separated it without mentioning the obvious single-player addition that'd be included to make it a complete package.

Makes more business and design sense that way and I think Star Fox would do the Battlefront styled games EXTREMELY well. It might be the safer option to the dip the series' toes back into the waters.

Honestly I like your idea, but I think realistically this is just way too ambitious for Star fox. Not every game has to be the huge open world with rpg elements. Nintendo is never going to put the budget to make a Star fox the next Wither or Mass effect.

Tbh I was playing Star wars squadrons last year and that's pretty much what I want from Star fox (although more aracde and more simple to pick up than Squadrons). I just want more open dogfight with cool explosions everywhere. Remove completely the Rail shooter elements because nobody wants that in 2022. Add some multiplayer elements (which Star wars squadrons also have) and some customisations options for your vehicles and I would say you could have a good game without really being THAT ambitious.

Yeah well I just think they should do it not necessarily that they will do it. I think they'd see the results worthy of the budget. The IP has strengths beyond Witcher and Mass Effect that are being floundered by Nintendo's risk-intolerant approach. Sometimes I think Nintendo should look outward more and see what has worked. Big AAA sci-fi open-world games work. They have 2 series that could fit that bill and I think Star Fox is the one to choose for the variety of reasons I'd elaborated on.

Besides that the multiplayer Squadrons/Battlefront style game I don't think would be as much of a risk as the big open-world single-player pitch would be. Nintendo could at least try that.

2 other ideas I've had for the franchise besides those 2 games would be a true RTS game and a 3v3 tag fighter (MVC & DBFZ) game playing to Fox and Falco's reputation as fighting game legends due to their status in Melee. Again Star Fox has the cast to make such a tag-fighter work I think and there could even be a few guest appearances like Captain Falcon and Zero-Suit Samus to fill out the roster a bit more. I know the default assumption of every fighting game fan is to have Arc Systems Work make their dream fighting game but just imagine that!