Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Diddy Kong]

We're talking moveset revamps ? Cool. I'm all in.

Certain veterans, especially characters from the era Brawl and before seriously lack that certain flair and detail that many of the Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers had.

I want many characters to stay more true to their canon abilities.

Samus for example, I would want her to be a more flexible shooter. Her Charge Shot and missiles are honestly very limited compared to how they're used in Metroid. She could use less weight and less power to make up for better camping abilities. Aerials should utilize her shooting, melee counter should be implemented also for her dash attack, and well, she's fine then.

Mario has a few moves I feel aren't fitting, FLUDD for example needs to go. What is even Up B? Can't he use something like his Cape for a recovery? And grounded it does exactly what Side B does? Fire balls need to feel more like they're from the Mario games.

DK is slapping and goofing around too much. Headbutt should be replaced with something more fitting, a command grab would fit very well I feel. Or a classic Barrel Toss. How come the one thing Donkey Kong is famous for isn't in his moveset?

Yoshi could use a mechanic with his egg lay and egg throwing. I mean, this could work for both Yoshi and Kirby. Eat up projectiles and items, turn them against the enemy.

Ganondorf, well... I don't even know anymore. Just make him able to recover. Ocarina of Time is what he's based around so far, I'm just wondering what BotW2 can bring for new abilities. I wouldn't object him being replaced for a new version of Calamity Ganon, if that brings for a more interesting character.

Many of the Pokemon characters also don't fe very true to character. Pikachu needs to, you know, actually have a Thunder Bolt. A charge up projectile, with high damage and hitstun. Charizard also feels lame and generic. Squirtle and Ivysaur however feel fine.

Mewtwo is a terrible representation of it's true abilities too. Everything is under tuned. Mewtwo needs over the top Specials that actually fit the character. A ranged grab is something I'd like to see too. Why Disable? Why Confusion? Are you even trying bro?

And since Diddy, my absolute favorite character, has been voted as the least popular character... I could see him get a moveset revamp where Dixie gets added into his moveset, making them a Mytrha / Pyra Pokémon Trainer hybrid. I'm no advocate for this, but I could see it happening.

 

[HyperSomari64]

If Mario has Cappy as an attack, let have a gimmick where he possesses another player, and every time it moves or makes an attack, causes self damage

 

[Yamat08]

I get why people want Ganondorf to be reworked, but at the same time I understand Sakurai's thoughts of a rework potentially alienating players who enjoy (and are used to) playing Ganondorf as he his now - especially after all this time. As such, I don't think it'll happen as long as Sakurai is the director, maybe some few tweaks here and there which we have gotten during the years. Having a complete overhaul now would almost feel out of place.

Exactly. In fact, one of the main points behind Everyone Is Here was getting all these familiar movesets back. If they had Mario, but his entire moveset was reworked to rely on some transformation gimmick with Cappy, he wouldn't feel like Mario anymore (or at least not the Mario that people are used to). It's best not to have overly drastic changes, but more small tweaks coming up over time, like FLUDD or Ganondorf's sword or all the N64 characters getting a side-B.

We're talking moveset revamps ? Cool. I'm all in.

Certain veterans, especially characters from the era Brawl and before seriously lack that certain flair and detail that many of the Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers had.

I don't get why this line of thought is so prominent. It's like so many people think that the earliest veterans require a rework because every moveset HAS to be packed with references...... and by "references", they really mean having characters being able to suddenly pull items from their home games and such out of their ass. Nevermind that a ton of "basic" actions actually do reference their games (Mario's punches in Super Mario 64, Donkey Kong's ground slap, etc.) and even if the earliest Fighters were just trying to cover a lot of basic fighting game tropes, the overall movesets still work for the most part. Nah, it comes off more to me like people demanding change for the sake of it.

 

[Aerospherology]

My first post on this thread....

Geno and Porky. It'll finally be their time. I'm sure of it.

 

[ZagarTulip]

I think Ashnard has got to be in Smash

 

[Opossum]

We're talking moveset revamps ? Cool. I'm all in.

Certain veterans, especially characters from the era Brawl and before seriously lack that certain flair and detail that many of the Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers had.

I want many characters to stay more true to their canon abilities.

Samus for example, I would want her to be a more flexible shooter. Her Charge Shot and missiles are honestly very limited compared to how they're used in Metroid. She could use less weight and less power to make up for better camping abilities. Aerials should utilize her shooting, melee counter should be implemented also for her dash attack, and well, she's fine then.

Mario has a few moves I feel aren't fitting, FLUDD for example needs to go. What is even Up B? Can't he use something like his Cape for a recovery? And grounded it does exactly what Side B does? Fire balls need to feel more like they're from the Mario games.

DK is slapping and goofing around too much. Headbutt should be replaced with something more fitting, a command grab would fit very well I feel. Or a classic Barrel Toss. How come the one thing Donkey Kong is famous for isn't in his moveset?

Yoshi could use a mechanic with his egg lay and egg throwing. I mean, this could work for both Yoshi and Kirby. Eat up projectiles and items, turn them against the enemy.

Ganondorf, well... I don't even know anymore. Just make him able to recover. Ocarina of Time is what he's based around so far, I'm just wondering what BotW2 can bring for new abilities. I wouldn't object him being replaced for a new version of Calamity Ganon, if that brings for a more interesting character.

Many of the Pokemon characters also don't fe very true to character. Pikachu needs to, you know, actually have a Thunder Bolt. A charge up projectile, with high damage and hitstun. Charizard also feels lame and generic. Squirtle and Ivysaur however feel fine.

Mewtwo is a terrible representation of it's true abilities too. Everything is under tuned. Mewtwo needs over the top Specials that actually fit the character. A ranged grab is something I'd like to see too. Why Disable? Why Confusion? Are you even trying bro?

And since Diddy, my absolute favorite character, has been voted as the least popular character... I could see him get a moveset revamp where Dixie gets added into his moveset, making them a Mytrha / Pyra Pokémon Trainer hybrid. I'm no advocate for this, but I could see it happening.

My hot take is that the only reason people have an issue with Confusion and Disable is because the moves they're named after are bad in the core Pokémon games. How the moves are portrayed in Smash fit Mewtwo as a character perfectly well, being a psychic barrier that reflects projectiles and disorients the opponent, and a move that dazes the opponent by hijacking their brain.

Both of those things absolutely fit Mewtwo. People just get hung up on the names, which is kind of dumb.

 

[Briwler]

Hi, long time reader here.
Since the topic is on revamping movesets: What would you think about alternate Special movesets for certain characters?


I had this idea while playing with the Pokémon Trainer and looking at the list of techniques in the pause menue, which only shows the Special moves with the B button. What if you could switch between two different Special movesets on the character select screen for certain characters, like you can choose between the Trainer's Pokémon or Pyra and Mythra? You could only choose between the 'classic' and the new moveset while selecting your character however and not switch during the match. It should also be clear what moveset you choose, so other players know what is coming.


The only change would be the Special moves with the B button, so the four Special attacks and the Final Smash. The rest stays the same. This way it wouldn't take to much time to develop, bring some fresh, more reference heavy moves and still leave the option of the classic moveset for players who don't want their main to change.


Ganondorf, Young Link, Toon Link, Sonic, Dark Samus, and Donkey Kong could get these alternate movesets for example.


What do you think about this idea?

 

[Geno Boost]

maybe give Mewtwo spoon so he can spoon the opponent like in the manga lol

 

[Sid-cada]

I don't get why this line of thought is so prominent. It's like so many people think that the earliest veterans require a rework because every moveset HAS to be packed with references...... and by "references", they really mean having characters being able to suddenly pull items from their home games and such out of their ass. Nevermind that a ton of "basic" actions actually do reference their games (Mario's punches in Super Mario 64, Donkey Kong's ground slap, etc.) and even if the earliest Fighters were just trying to cover a lot of basic fighting game tropes, the overall movesets still work for the most part. Nah, it comes off more to me like people demanding change for the sake of it.

Part of the problem, I think, is that move sets have experienced an extreme amount of power creep in what they can do. Several of the newer characters seem to have gimmicks on top of gimmicks while other older character seem to have struggles keeping up.

This is really apparent with several characters, like when you look at how Mega Man gets so many projectiles that his jab is one, while Samus is forced to use a 2 hit melee jab that is deliberately made to not have hit one connect into hit two.

Several characters have really weird interpretations of their gimmick as well. Little Mac's power-metered KO punch is sort of a come-back mechanic in Smash, getting more meter from getting hit than dealing damage, yet in his home series this is reversed. Shulk's Mondo Arts are stat-buff in Smash, yet the ones in Smash are almost all moves save for speed, and two of his arts are completely made up for Smash.

I don't know. When you look at all of the crazy stuff Terry can do, while the majority of Kirby's game plan is to rely on the fact that his down tilt has 30% chance to trip, making him arguably the most RNG dependent character in Smash, older characters seem lacking.

 

[SPEN18]

I don't really understand the aversion to reworking or even completely cutting certain veterans. Each new Smash game is an opportunity to reevaluate the history of Nintendo and build the best roster to represent that history (given the necessary resource constraints, of course). Some things that made more sense in the past, like making Ganondorf a C. Falcon clone to deal with restricted development time or adding a flash-in-the-pan recency character to cash in on a current release, might now have sensibility approaching zero. At the end of the day, such changes would probably not affect sales very much anyway; just make the best game possible without worrying about backlash due to removals.

 

[Guynamednelson]

resource constraints

When it comes to not wanting veterans cut, there's the problem: They don't want to realize how many resources it would take to do it again, now that we have more companies to deal with including Disney, and base SSBU already had to make compromises with its newcomers.

As for aversions to decloning Ganondorf/other clones...preferring those resources be spent on a newcomer, I guess. The common idea for decloning YL, for example, costs the same amount of resources as four separate fighters.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

If there are three characters I think are up for a rework, I think it’d be Samus, Sonic, and obviously Ganondorf.

-Other M is by far the most despised Metroid game so basing the Ultimate design off that was likely due to time constraints (especially since Ridley was given an Amalgamation Design). Now that Dread has cemented itself as Metroids BotW, a costume change is inevitable imo. Along with this, Samus has definitely aged the worst of the 64 cast in many peoples eyes. I assume the costume change will result in prominent additions like beam swapping and getting to stay in the morph ball yet yield a similar result and playstyle to the original moveset.

-People really hate his moveset, in terms of how much of the series it represents and how it actually plays. I think Sakurai and the team will tweak animations and add a couple moves to alleviate these issues without completely overhauling him.

-The team listened to the Smash 4 complaints and finally gave him sword moves. I see no reason why they wouldn’t listen to the feedback about his specials this time around. All I ask is that Flame Choke stays and we get Dead Mans Volley. That is all.

Its too early to say for sure, but I honestly think if Smash 6 cuts a lot of the roster this will be a large part of the marketing.

 

[Perkilator]

My idea for a rework was for Kirby, just to be more faithful to his home series and be more versatile while still being easy to pick up.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm not a sonic fan perse having played just the game gear game lol but that said what is it about his moves are not considered faithful / well executed? He spins, is fast, has the bumper spring.. thing....?

 

[Trevenant]

I'm fine with Kirby the way he is now TBH. Him pulling out random abilities for every single attack was always a bad idea IMO. Yes your Mario's and Luigi's do occasionally pull out a Fire Flower or two but they really are few and far between. Keeping the copy abilities reserved to the button that has the least moves tied to it represents how Kirby can't just do it on a whim whilst still representing them. Pulling out Yo-yo for an up tilt or what have you would get very messy very easily IMO, just random references balled up into a literal ball.

His normals are mainly kicks but I think they fit his anatomy. It's either that or they just go hardcore on the Kirby references and have all his normals be the stuff he can do without a copy abilities so like a slide for a down tilt or a n air puff forward air, and at that point, that would have just as much chance of getting messy as it would obviously feel just as cobbled together as they'd need to fill out like 15 attack buttons and likely have to pull from a bunch of decades old games with insignificant attacks being referenced, whilst also being just as generic as people say he is now because that's obviously what Kirby is meant to be without a copy ability. The current iteration strikes a perfect balance, Well, that and he is Sakurai's character, so if Sakurai didn't hold the same basic opinion at least and thought it was a misrepresentation, then he probably would have been retooled by now.

 

[Lyncario]

maybe give Mewtwo spoon so he can spoon the opponent like in the manga lol

Alternatively: add the latest Touhou character so that she can do that with her comically large spork

Spoiler

 

[Chuderz]

Ganondorf being reworked would be cool.

But I would like people to be honest about one thing.

Ever since Brawl, people have been saying that Black Shadow should take Ganondorf's moveset and be a clone. I just feel thats... less people wanting Black Shadow and looking for ways for Ganondorf to be reworked. It feels like people don't actually care about Black Shadow. Its insulting really.

It's more like what's the smallest possible ask for increasing F-Zero representation. Make Black Shadow a semiclone or something if you want to give him a little boost. Would leave the echo space open for Blood Falcon. As far as unique newcomers go I highly doubt we'll see this happen unless there's a wave of support coming soon similar to the likes of Ridley and K Rool but I don't see it and even if it did manifest it would still take time for it to reach Sakurai/Nintendo's conscious. I personally would want Deathborn but Jodi or Pico could also be cool though I see them as more background character material. Jodi maybe if she got a modern redesign to move away from her dated 80's style.

This all being way too much thought for a game series Nintendo claims to be out of any good ideas for. Ridiculous. I have an amazing concept for a gimmicky-ridden F-Zero game. I'm actually planning on making a thread about it. It's just that Nintendo doesn't want to compete with itself by having 2 racing games. Even if they're radically different. Sucks so I hope it changes someday and having it confirmed that they at least tried to outsource F-Zero once at least offers some hope for the series to return.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If characters get to have new moveset redesigns, who would you want them to be?

-Give Ganondorf a completely unique moveset based on Hyrule Warriors Trident Ganondorf. Make Black Shadow Captain Falcon's echo and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.
-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.
-Give Chrom a new unique moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Make Roy Marth's Echo.
-Give Young Link and Toon Link different subweapons so they aren't just using the same Bow/Bomb/Boomerang combo as Adult Link.
-Give Falco the Sniper Rifle and Wolf the Machine Gun from StarFox Assault.

Ever since Brawl, people have been saying that Black Shadow should take Ganondorf's moveset and be a clone. I just feel thats... less people wanting Black Shadow and looking for ways for Ganondorf to be reworked.

That's pretty much right. Like, if it wasn't for the Ganondorf aspect, the F-Zero character I'd be asking for would be Samurai Goroh.

It feels like people don't actually care about Black Shadow. Its insulting really.

I'm...sorry if Black Shadow feels insulted by being treated exactly as importantly as his character is?

Like, F-Zero characters are all kinda nobodies, dude. Black Shadow slightly less so because he's the main villain. But yes, he gets the nod because he's the most appropriate to assume Classicdorf's moveset.

 

[SPEN18]

As for aversions to decloning Ganondorf/other clones...preferring those resources be spent on a newcomer

Oh, yes, I totally get preferring a newcomer to a decloning, especially since many of the clones in Smash wouldn't have the merits to be playable at all if they couldn't be a clone.

 

[Chuderz]

The common idea for decloning YL, for example, costs the same amount of resources as four separate fighters.

My philosophy around decloning the Links is to start with Link himself. BOTW/BOTW2/AOC will have everything he possibly needs to be completely unique in every respect. I'm actually going to make a thread about it I think. Certain things will be applicable to Toon Link too like the Paraglider working off from Snake's Up-Special and then turning the Paraglider into a Deku Leaf for Toon Link.

To be as brief as possible Link would need 3 movesets similar to Pokemon trainer. His Shield-B would cycle through them. Moveset 1. is Master Sword/Shield. Moveset 2. is the long spear. Moveset 3. is some form of a two-handed weapon and that can either be either an axe or hammer. They all have different everything. Throws/pummels/grabs/Smash-Attacks/Tilts/Jabs you get the idea with only Specials carrying over between the 3 movesets. Up-Special is now Paraglider with Revali's gale up current. Side-Special is Urbosa's furry (works similar to Hero's Side-Special) and Neutral-B stays mostly the same but I'd either add a Byleth esque ancient arrow charged shot system or RNG between the 3 arrows types Bomb/Ice/Shock. If you Neutral input in the air Link slows down and you can angle/aim your shot up to 180 degrees in whatever direction you're facing when the input is triggered. Down-Special stays just like it is in Ultimate. Link gets Pacman grab with Sheika Slate Stasis effect. When the opponent gets caught in it they get Statis chained for a short time just like being caught in a grab works and Link's grab animations will reflect both his current weapon and both his hands being free. These will be some top-of-the-line animations is what I'm saying. All for our boy. He deserves it. It's annoying that Nintendo's own characters feel the most dated in their own game. Link's shield is now Daruk's protection and when perfect-shielded will act as a counter. If Daruk is in range of the opponent (countering a melee attack) he'll counter with his own melee attack back at them. If it's a projectile Link perfect-shields Daruk will reflect it back. When Link's shield is broken Daruk simply fades away. Link's passive is Mipha's grace. It's stupid unlikely like 1 in a 1000 and when she shows up she heals for like 2-3 percent. Thanks for everything Mipha. /brief.

Toon Link needs a full rework too since he has the most potential differences. Pull from the gameboy games, the minish cap, Windwaker of course, spirit trains. Whatever you need because the material is there.

Young Link retains the old moveset since 1. it fits him much better and 2. he uses it much better. The one thing I'd love to add though is a single mask and that one being his most iconic one.... The first one you get in Majora's Mask... The Deku mask! Shield-B has Young Link put on the Deku Mask and with it he gains an entirely new Deku Link moveset! Yay. Inputting Shield-B takes the mask off but it's laggy so only do it when you're safe because taking damage halts the transition.

I have fixed the Links. I have way more details on what I'd personally do with BOTW Link currently but I'm wanting to see all the goodies BOTW2 is gonna add like everyone else. I'm sure there's much to pull from there.

 

[HyperSomari64]

-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.

This, plus:

If Mario has Cappy as an attack, let have a gimmick where he possesses another player, and every time it moves or makes an attack, causes self damage

Self damage to the other character. Something like a "Why are you hitting yourself?" joke.

 

[Eldrake]

Honestly, the biggest and most glaring issue I've seen with the "Just give Black Shadow Falcondorf moveset" thing is that, unless I am missing something because it happened in some obscure F-Zero side material or something...

Black Shadow does not use a goddamn sword.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Ganondorf being reworked would be cool.

But I would like people to be honest about one thing.

Ever since Brawl, people have been saying that Black Shadow should take Ganondorf's moveset and be a clone. I just feel thats... less people wanting Black Shadow and looking for ways for Ganondorf to be reworked. It feels like people don't actually care about Black Shadow. Its insulting really.

Hades would fit the moveset better anyway.

Just look at his fights in Uprising. When he's not using weapons literally mounted on his clothes or actually burping, he instead dishes out some really brutal physical hits that would fit the Falcondorf moveset perfectly.

Just have him use the Hewdraw Blade on smash attacks. Not exactly canon, but there's still some connection due to Hewdraw literally working for him. Definitely a better case than Black Shadow, at least.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Honestly, the biggest and most glaring issue I've seen with the "Just give Black Shadow Falcondorf moveset" thing is that, unless I am missing something because it happened in some obscure F-Zero side material or something...

Black Shadow does not use a goddamn sword.

This idea that Black Shadow should be the new Falcondorf started when Ganondorf didn't have the sword in his moveset at all, and that's what they're referring to.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

these moves feel way too acrobatic for Ganondorf.

He literally does flips in Wind Waker, so I'd say being acrobatic isn't too out of character for him.

Though I'd agree it should be kept to a minimum since it's the only game where he does stuff like this,

EDIT: 666th reply.

 

[HyperSomari64]

But the biggest question is:
If Konami returns in Smash 6 with their content, does the Konami Code can also be implemented as an easter egg?

 

[Eldrake]

But the biggest question is:
If Konami returns in Smash 6 with their content, does the Konami Code can also be implemented as an easter egg?

If Konami's return in Smash 6 includes Contra content? Definitely.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But the biggest question is:
If Konami returns in Smash 6 with their content, does the Konami Code can also be implemented as an easter egg?

Giving 30 stocks for free sounds a little too OP

 

[HyperSomari64]

If Konami's return in Smash 6 includes Contra content? Definitely.

But wasn't the code first included in Gradius?
So, Vic Viper (Zone of the Enders incarnation or the Otomedius girl) going to be a joke character with it's gimmick being the OG Gradius power-ups

 

[SKX31]

For years I've heard nothing but people complaining that it "wouldn't work" and that Dedede's Gordo "proves" that. And after playing Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl I can safely say that that's BS. The main reason Gordo Toss kinda sucks is because it's weighed heavily in favor of the opponent, and not Dedede. So that would be fixed with Dead Man's Volley.

Great write up - if I may add (I'm 'bout to get technical):

Gordo is not superb in neutral even if it got buffed in the Aegis patch (decreased endlag both initially and when Dedede reflects a Gordo, as well as increased chance of sticking to a wall such as an edge. It's now 60 %) not only since it's commital or can be hit back, but also since it is very unpredictable (which is an asset when first thrown - but not reflected). However Dedede does have some answers to it being sent back (not just his Inhale) because of his reach... except for cases where the opponent has multiple fast projectiles. comes to mind, although he can be positively hellish for Dedede overall. Still, Gordos are valuable since they oftentimes force the opponent to do something and Dedede kinda likes when the opponent's doing something and he can react.

However, Gordo excels when the opponent's already in a vurnerable spot (like hanging on the edge). Suddenly that spike ball covers a lot of options and Dedede can choose to threaten with practically whatever. Dash Attack? Down Tilt? Smash attacks? F-Air to cover ledge jump? If there's one biggest strength Dedede has, it's the ledgetrapping.

I'd imagine that DMV would play out much the same way, except Ganondorf kinda needs both something that can semi-force approaches and something to deal with ledge scenarios. Currently, he has to approach constantly - and yes he's one of the scariest members of the cast when he's got momentum but he doesn't have a solid Plan B. The closest he has is like N-Airing approaches... but rising N-Air has a tendency to completely drop on all grounded opponents - even on the biggest characters. Most other moves are decent defensive options on paper but has that "very high risk" caveat to them. And yes, both DORIYAH and Volcano Kick hit below the ledge, but they're very reactable; and although D-Air is a contender for the single strongest spike in the game it's also reactable most of the time.

DMV though... now we're talking. Projectiles are some of the safest ledgetrap moves in Smash period (anyone who's played as or vs. a Belmont can testify to this) and it'd give him a defensive option he kinda needs. While the Power >> Agility trade off Ganon has currently has gained him a lot of fans and honestly is completely fine in FFAs (I mean, I believe the assertion that he benefits a lot out of items and 3+ players since any distraction lets Ganon players walk up to people more consistently) there are good technical reasons to revaluate the playstyle and maybe change it up a bit.

Oh and DMV might be less volatile than Gordos since it wouldn't bounce on the ground, there's that.

Part of the problem, I think, is that move sets have experienced an extreme amount of power creep in what they can do. Several of the newer characters seem to have gimmicks on top of gimmicks while other older character seem to have struggles keeping up.

This is really apparent with several characters, like when you look at how Mega Man gets so many projectiles that his jab is one, while Samus is forced to use a 2 hit melee jab that is deliberately made to not have hit one connect into hit two.

Several characters have really weird interpretations of their gimmick as well. Little Mac's power-metered KO punch is sort of a come-back mechanic in Smash, getting more meter from getting hit than dealing damage, yet in his home series this is reversed. Shulk's Mondo Arts are stat-buff in Smash, yet the ones in Smash are almost all moves save for speed, and two of his arts are completely made up for Smash.

I don't know. When you look at all of the crazy stuff Terry can do, while the majority of Kirby's game plan is to rely on the fact that his down tilt has 30% chance to trip, making him arguably the most RNG dependent character in Smash, older characters seem lacking.

TBF most of the old 64 characters hold up well (enough) because their moves are relatively simple and straightforward - helping them to not only serve as beginner characters, but also to help keep up with the more sophisticated counterparts. and are good examples (sure, Pika's hyped beyond belief, but even so it's a potent character in skilled hands even if the learning curve can be steep). And hell, even changing one move or so can do a lot to change perceptions of a character in some instances [looks at ] . The only cases I can really think of where there's been a lot of calls for rework are Samus*, and to a lesser extent DK.
*She works well currently despite the jab - Ultimate allowing her and to charge in mid-air was a major boon, as were the buffs to projectiles and grab as well as her aerials having a lot less endlag than in Smash 4 - but she could use some changes now when the Metroid series has evolved in a different direction and has created a major discrepancy between Smash Samus and canon Samus. When it comes to her I do agree somewhat.

(That said, I also agree that RNG dependent tripping should not be a thing - Kirby in particular could benefit from down tilt always tripping but at a lower % range than currently. In addition, RNG dependent tripping does not make people playing on the couch laugh or make crowds gasp in excitment.)

As for aversions to decloning Ganondorf/other clones...preferring those resources be spent on a newcomer, I guess. The common idea for decloning YL, for example, costs the same amount of resources as four separate fighters.

That and some people simply thinking that they're fine as-is. Which is extremely difficult to measure (one can both play a character and wish the character in question was different for instance) but I can kinda understand where Sakurai's coming from, especially since characters like Ganondorf are popular to play.

Now yes, being popular to play doesn't mean that a character can't or won't be changed in future titles, but it's going to mean that the resource allocation in development is going to lean a bit more towards "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" territory. Keyword being lean since there will always be cases where they change moves not just to better match canon, but also to plug gameplay related holes if they felt the need.

It's next-to-impossible to answer conclusively how much they'll change with the veterans since we don't know which form Smash 6 will take. But still, it's good food for thought.

 

[Trevenant]

TBF Up Tilt should just go cos it's crap lol. It plays second fiddle to 2 or 3 attacks in particular that fills the niche it fills, whilst being way better in general. It's so slow that it can really only be considered one of those Falcon Punch type moves, which Neutral B already fills whilst being stronger, and way more versatile, and his doriyah which is his side smash, and kinda his up smash since they have pretty similar damage properties with the only real difference being reach in exchange for range. If anything, it perfectly displays dorfs athleticness as it takes almost a second to start up lol, in a game where 1/20th of a second is considerably important at the highest levels of play.

 

[Ivander]

Just have him use the Hewdraw Blade on smash attacks.

1. It's the Hewdraw Club, not Blade.
2. Hewdraw did not work for Hades once. Thanatos did, neither Twinbellows, Hewdraw or Pandora did. Hades does have control over the Underworld and yes, he did bring Medusa back, unknown to her at the time, but Hewdraw still never worked for Hades once.

 

[Eldrake]

I'd be happy with Samus in a future smash game if she could speed boost and shinespark for sick offstage plays.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

1. It's the Hewdraw Club, not Blade.
2. Hewdraw did not work for Hades once. Thanatos did, neither Twinbellows, Hewdraw or Pandora did. Hades does have control over the Underworld and yes, he did bring Medusa back, unknown to her at the time, but Hewdraw still never worked for Hades once.

Either way, it's still a better case than Black Shadow.

Also, Pandora is the only one besides Thanatos to have at least known of Hades, so that might mean something? Only 16 years left until we find out

 

[Eldrake]

Either way, it's still a better case than Black Shadow.

Also, Pandora is the only one besides Thanatos to have at least known of Hades, so that might mean something? Only 16 years left until we find out

The club's colors even fits Hades like a glove, so even in that department Hades makes better sense to inherit the Falcondorf moveset than Black Shadow.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The club's colors even fits Hades like a glove, so even in that department Hades makes better sense to inherit the Falcondorf moveset than Black Shadow.

Yeah, and besides, we'd lose a King of Disrespect, but gain a God of Disrespect

 

[Gazorpazorpfield]

But wasn't the code first included in Gradius?
So, Vic Viper (Zone of the Enders incarnation or the Otomedius girl) going to be a joke character with it's gimmick being the OG Gradius power-ups

You joke but having a straight up spaceship as a character would be sick. I want them to experiment more with ideas like that.

 

[Ivander]

But I would like people to be honest about one thing.

Ever since Brawl, people have been saying that Black Shadow should take Ganondorf's moveset and be a clone. I just feel thats... less people wanting Black Shadow and looking for ways for Ganondorf to be reworked. It feels like people don't actually care about Black Shadow. Its insulting really.

Yeah, it's not exactly fair to Black Shadow when it feels the only reason to care about him is him being the arch-enemy of Captain Falcon and people wanting him to have Ganondorf's old moveset.

At the same time, it also doesn't help that F-Zero in general doesn't have a whole lot for movesets and Captain Falcon's moveset is for the most part original, so when people's idea of Black Shadow is Captain Falcon, but slower and stronger against Falcon's fast and furious, it kinda shows alot of issues with both originality and lack of attention with F-Zero.

It'd be like people asking for Jody Summer to have Zero Suit Samus' moveset because most of what Zero Suit Samus does is original and is not very accurate to her character, therefore ZSS should be revamped and Jody Summer could have it because she has a similar build and design to ZSS, she works for the Police Force/Federation of F-Zero and goes after criminals and it'd be more acceptable for Jody to have the original moveset like Captain Falcon does compared to ZSS who should have moves based on her games.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Gazorpazorpfield For me, the original Vic Viper spaceship can work as an assist trophy too.

 

[Perkilator]

Honestly, the biggest and most glaring issue I've seen with the "Just give Black Shadow Falcondorf moveset" thing is that, unless I am missing something because it happened in some obscure F-Zero side material or something...

Black Shadow does not use a goddamn sword.

He doesn't need a sword. He just needs to a mix of Falcon and Ganondorf.