Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[MarioRaccoon]

How would online WoL work tho?

Mm just like other online co-op games? Don’t play too much coop (and more less via online play), so don’t but thought would be a cool feature.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Posted on twitter a few hours ago but I figure it’s worth sharing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

“Framed! (It is a print)”

I don’t need it definitely doesn’t bother me that I don’t have it I am A OK with not owning it I am perfectly fine everything is fine its not fine I NEED IT GIVE IT TO ME I NEED IT SO BAD

 

[Gengar84]

Posted a few hours ago but I figure it’s worth sharing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

“Framed! (It is a print)”

I don’t need it definitely doesn’t bother me that I don’t have it I am A OK with not owning it I am perfectly fine everything is fine its not fine I NEED IT GIVE IT TO ME

I wonder or there is a high quality image of the Classic mode mural. I like that one better than the one with the full roster.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm leaning toward not giving the whole cast a counter. I think the few characters that do have the same need them and those that don't may become too powerful. This is bias of course considering the only other game I've played extensively that had counters was Tekken and like smash only a handful of characters could counter, and in some rare cases it was a large part of the meta for them (Nina Williams for example).

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Having a handful of animations making slight references doesn't mean Ganondorf is accurate to how he is in Zelda games, especially when he has none of his most iconic stuff, be it the magic in his OoT fight, anything related to his Ganon form (barring the Final Smash and not counting the boss since it's not playable) or, to a lesser extent, the swordfighting skills we've seen in Twilight Princess or Wind Waker (which the smash attacks barely tap into, if at all).

But a handful of animation references are still references to his source material. But you are right about the swordplay. It’s both interesting and confusing that the sword he does use is the one from the space world GameCube tech demo that predated the windwaker reveal.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But a handful of animation references are still references to his source material.

A character's feel is more than just animations.

The overall moveset design is also a very big part of how a character feels. And Ganondorf's moveset just doesn't feel like Ganondorf because he's never fought in a way that's this brutish in Zelda games. It sticks out like a sore thumb, even if you have the remote knowledge that Warlock Punch's animation is based on how he killed one of the Sages in Twilight Princess.

 

[Chuderz]

I'm leaning toward not giving the whole cast a counter. I think the few characters that do have the same need them and those that don't may become too powerful. This is bias of course considering the only other game I've played extensively that had counters was Tekken and like smash only a handful of characters could counter, and in some rare cases it was a large part of the meta for them (Nina Williams for example).

Hey thanks for reading my post and considering it though! We all have different sensibilities when it comes to the game. I'm more in the camp that "more moves = better" but you do you! I also don't really consider balance all that much instead preferring the route (mind experiment really) of purposefully overstuffing the character with any and all fitting references wherever I can "logically" presume they could fit as some sort of unrestrained Sakurai wannabe having a fever-dream or something.

I think that Counters are kind of meh and boring so I think it's a safe move to give everyone. I honestly don't think it'd tip the scales for certain characters besides said character already being good without them anyways. It's like the characters that I play that have it already just sort of land it sometimes. It's more moments like a "hey cool my counter went off" versus the rarer "I perfectly planned that counter going off right there" moments.

Also besides the idea of freeing up more moveset real-estate for the characters with them and giving everybody else a nice new tool it's really about destigmatizing the counter system that was put into the game. It's there whether we like it or not so I think we might as well get the full use of it being there. It's just kind of has this unfortunate reputation as a move that a large enough portion of the fanbase finds boring. It'd be kind of like the moveset version of "Everyone is Here" freeing up the DLC speculation from the veteran spam.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

And yet another Sakurai Tweet!

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This is the best PotD, fite me.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And yet another Sakurai Tweet!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is the best PotD, fite me.

No need to fight over facts, my guy.

 

[Idon]

If you take both characters and view their source material - Ganondorf fits (he even drops a warlock kick in OoT to collapse the floor in the final battle) and Capt Falcon is the one littered with question marks.

Actually he doesn't. He punches the ground.

 

[Sucumbio]

I have to agree to the sentiment that Ganondorf should have been given more unique moves once the "rush to completion" was no longer an issue. In ultimate it felt to me like they tried to make him more unique from falcon but it felt kinda flat? I dunno if that's the right word....I love using the character that's never gonna change but I do hope one day he gets redesigned.

 

[Geno Boost]

It's CRIMINAL that StarTropics and Pro Wrestling don't have Spirits. They're 1st party!

I would say Nester funky’s Bowling and Trax (gameboy) and Pokémon mystery dungeon as well

 

[Mamboo07]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here we go again... First, leaks and now Smash 6?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I mean, I guess a channel like that has to do something for content till Smash 6...

 

[BlondeLombax]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here we go again... First, leaks and now Smash 6?

What do you mean this dude's still active?!

Meh, he'll pitter out in a few months, I guess.

 

[Yamat08]

I would say Nester funky’s Bowling and Trax (gameboy) and Pokémon mystery dungeon as well

Nester's Funky Bowling is another game made exclusive to the American market. I brought that up earlier.

StarTropics is notably a Nintendo IP that was exclusively released in North America. I dunno why, but despite Smash's focus on Nintendo's history, the niche of games only released outside of Japan seems to have been almost completely ignored. The only exception to this seems to be the Americanized equivalents of existing Japanese games (Elite Beat Agents and Rusty Slugger).

And I looked up this Trax. I'm guessing you think it's a Nintendo IP because it was developed by HAL Laboratory. However, HAL is actually NOT a Nintendo subsidiary. While a lot of the games they work on are published and owned by Nintendo (most notably the Kirby series), they're really more of a third party that's frequently contracted by them. A good number of HAL-developed games weren't made with any of Nintendo's input (aside from being licensed to their system), so we probably shouldn't expect to ever see Spirits for the likes of, not just Trax, but also Eggerland/Adventures of Lolo, Revenge of the Gator, Arcana, maybe Part Time UFO, and others.

As for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon..... yeah, it's a shame, and the fact that they didn't do a Spirit Board event to promote the recent Rescue Team remake seems like a missed opportunity. Still, by this point, I've pretty much accepted that The Pokemon Company is pretty stingy with Smash in general. Almost no spin-off material (Detective Pikachu being an odd exception), they use Smash as a vehicle for promoting ONLY the titular pocket monsters (almost no human characters are featured), and even the Pokemon themselves get showcased in a limited manner (despite having Sugimori artwork and all sorts of other material to draw from, the stickers in Brawl only showed them as Battle Revolution renders, while Ultimate's Spirits have all of them using their Global Link artwork).

 

[Geno Boost]

Nester's Funky Bowling is another game made exclusive to the American market. I brought that up earlier.



And I looked up this Trax. I'm guessing you think it's a Nintendo IP because it was developed by HAL Laboratory. However, HAL is actually NOT a Nintendo subsidiary. While a lot of the games they work on are published and owned by Nintendo (most notably the Kirby series), they're really more of a third party that's frequently contracted by them. A good number of HAL-developed games weren't made with any of Nintendo's input (aside from being licensed to their system), so we probably shouldn't expect to ever see Spirits for the likes of, not just Trax, but also Eggerland/Adventures of Lolo, Revenge of the Gator, Arcana, maybe Part Time UFO, and others.

As for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon..... yeah, it's a shame, and the fact that they didn't do a Spirit Board event to promote the recent Rescue Team remake seems like a missed opportunity. Still, by this point, I've pretty much accepted that The Pokemon Company is pretty stingy with Smash in general. Almost no spin-off material (Detective Pikachu being an odd exception), they use Smash as a vehicle for promoting ONLY the titular pocket monsters (almost no human characters are featured), and even the Pokemon themselves get showcased in a limited manner (despite having Sugimori artwork and all sorts of other material to draw from, the stickers in Brawl only showed them as Battle Revolution renders, while Ultimate's Spirits have all of them using their Global Link artwork).

That’s new to me so basically Trax and Lolo & Lala who had appeared in Kirby games before being regarded as 3rd party sounds strange to me I thought they would be regarded as 2nd party because of Hal

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Actually he doesn't. He punches the ground.

Ok so it’s side-B instead of down-B

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Ok so it’s side-B instead of down-B

Except that attack isn't a command grab in the Zelda games.

Also, he chokes people with Side B, he doesn't punch.

I'll admit that it looks really cool and that I wouldn't mind it returning even on a redesigned Ganondorf because not every single move needs to be a reference; he just needs to have a couple of really iconic things that truly made his battles memorable; be it magic or actual references to his sword skills.

If all he gets in the next game is a Dead Man's Volley projectile and a hover, those two small things would already significantly change how he feels, making him closer to his actual game appearances, specifically Ocarina of Time which is arguably the most iconic version of the character.

I have to agree to the sentiment that Ganondorf should have been given more unique moves once the "rush to completion" was no longer an issue. In ultimate it felt to me like they tried to make him more unique from falcon but it felt kinda flat? I dunno if that's the right word....I love using the character that's never gonna change but I do hope one day he gets redesigned.

Doesn't help that A. They used the SpaceWorld demo sword, which he never did canonically and B. they chose Ganondorf's design on the one game where he doesn't use a sword in battle.

With that said, the latter can be excused since he uses swords in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker... is what I'd say if the sword attacks actually referenced either of these games instead of just blatantly ripping off Ike and Cloud.

 

[Lyncario]

I'd love to see Counter standardized as a universal option across the entire cast just like Grab for example. It just seems right at this point. Could even keep unique counters like Sora's and Sephiroth's intact by moving them to this input. This would free up all the Down-Specials (and Peach and Daisy's Neutral-Special) we've tragically lost to the ages.

You know what? I would really like this. This would also make an interesting trifecta of universal defensive options with shield, spotdodge, and counter.

 

[Sucumbio]

Except that attack isn't a command grab in the Zelda games.

Also, he chokes people with Side B, he doesn't punch.

I'll admit that it looks really cool and that I wouldn't mind it returning even on a redesigned Ganondorf because not every single move needs to be a reference; he just needs to have a couple of really iconic things that truly made his battles memorable; be it magic or actual references to his sword skills.

If all he gets in the next game is a Dead Man's Volley projectile and a hover, those two small things would already significantly change how he feels, making him closer to his actual game appearances, specifically Ocarina of Time which is arguably the most iconic version of the character.


Doesn't help that A. They used the SpaceWorld demo sword, which he never did canonically and B. they chose Ganondorf's design on the one game where he doesn't use a sword in battle.

With that said, the latter can be excused since he uses swords in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker... is what I'd say if the sword attacks actually referenced either of these games instead of just blatantly ripping off Ike and Cloud.

I just imagined a "dead" dorf alt skin with ww textures and the master sword still broken off in his skull lol!

But yeah I mean.... To me something truly iconic is the final fight against Ganon in the original game. I could get behind him having a staff and casting orbs like in that fight and it could even make the 'oomph' sound if you get hit and you'd flash for a few seconds even. I dunno stuff like that just makes way more sense.

 

[Opossum]

Oops posted too fast

 

[Mamboo07]

If characters get to have new moveset redesigns, who would you want them to be?

I would go with:

• - More of Wario Land using his many transformations like Fire, Fat, Zombie and Spring as attacks.
• - Go absolutely bananas with the many many copy abilities to fight with.
• - Less spin dash more attacks like Light Dash and Boost.
• - Take inspiration from Bowser's Inside Story.
• - Give him a Barrel Cannon recovery as well maybe the Moon punch as a Final Smash
• - Literally so many people want him to not be a Captain Falcon clone and something something dark magic attacks

 

[Sucumbio]

Lucina and Marth are so similar they don't even get their own character subforum.... I'd like to see the fe cast cut back on and the remainder be truly unique from one another. Not sure how tho.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Lucina and Marth are so similar they don't even get their own character subforum.... I'd like to see the fe cast cut back on and the remainder be truly unique from one another. Not sure how tho.

Put in the time and development effort to declone every single one of them, obviously

 

[Dan Quixote]

I brought this up half-jokingly earlier but now I'm actually curious enough to ask seriously since the Ganondorf discussion is still going on.

How would you feel if future Smash games replaced Ganondorf with Ganon entirely? Probably using his smaller designs from the early 2D games (Ridley-style) and fighting with a trident and magic.

 

[Opossum]

I figured I'd give my thoughts on a redone Ganondorf.

First thing's first, I don't think every move should be changed. Some can and absolutely should be kept. Moves that are kept include Flame Choke, maybe dash attack, all three Smash attacks, forward air, back air, down air, forward tilt, maybe down tilt, and Warlock Punch (though it is now Ganondorf's down special). Also "Ganon, the Demon King" remains his Final Smash.

The main thing connecting most of the moves I didn't list (Wizard's Foot, neutral air, up air, up tilt) is that these moves feel way too acrobatic for Ganondorf. The only kick attacks I retained were down air, forward tilt, and possibly down tilt, because these moves feel fittingly brutal and far more like Ganondorf than Captain Falcon. Ganondorf is absolutely not the type who should be doing a flip kick up air. Let him do something like Zelda's up air with the size and effect of Mewtwo's up smash, for example. That being said, one aesthetic change I'd make is imbuing his forward, back, and down air with dark magic effects to really heighten the feel. The moves themselves are fine, but just need an aesthetic buff.

The other moves I changed, I did so not because they don't necessarily fit, but because Ganondorf just has better options to use.

Dark Dive does fit Ganondorf, but giving him a limited free flight levitation move is not only more fitting, but it would help fix Ganondorf's terrible recovery that's been holding him back far too much. If need be, make it like R.O.B.'s where it has a meter based recharge.

Dash attack could be kept if need be, because a shoulder bash is fittingly brutal, but honestly? Just give him Mewtwo's and call it a day. He got his Smash attacks lifted directly from Ike (forward, up) and Cloud (down) and they fit just fine, so lifting his dash attack from Mewtwo should be no big deal since it fits so well. Hell, if need be, give him Mewtwo's neutral air to replace his old one! That's also a move that fits Ganondorf well, and would give Ganondorf access to a nice, fast attack to rack up damage more safely, while also giving him more magic.

His jab could be so much cooler. Instead of just a single palm strike, have him thrust both hands forward. And when they're fully extended, if the button is tapped again, Ganondorf begins to shoot lightning from his hands that rapidly shocks his foes, going full Palpatine.

Another change I'd give Ganondorf comes in the form of his throws. They suck. They shouldn't suck. Ganondorf's throws are one of the best ways to show his wizarding skills. Have him throw opponents into dark portals that then expel them outward. Have him electrocute them with what is basically force lightning to launch them. Have him fly up in the air and slam them into the ground. Give Ganondorf's throws the pizzazz they deserve. Hell, if they want one to be especially brutal, have Ganondorf summon his trident and have him rake the opponent along the ground with it, akin to Injustice Aquaman.

As mentioned above, I kept the Warlock Punch, but made it Ganondorf's down special. I really like the idea of Ganondorf having a move that really signifies that he wields the Triforce of Power, and imbuing his hand with dark magic to deliver a devastating blow is a good way to do that. Because of that, this is the one case of a very-much-Falcon move being retained, but just moved to down special to make it feel less derivative on the surface.

But what of the new neutral special? Well, that's simple. Dead Man's Volley.

For years I've heard nothing but people complaining that it "wouldn't work" and that Dedede's Gordo "proves" that. And after playing Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl I can safely say that that's BS. The main reason Gordo Toss kinda sucks is because it's weighed heavily in favor of the opponent, and not Dedede. So that would be fixed with Dead Man's Volley.

Ganondorf starts the volley and launches an orb of magic. When it starts out, the opponent can reflect it back with nearly anything. However, while the orb is active, Ganondorf's neutral special changes to a frame one backhanded smack with a lingering hitbox afterwards, borderline ensuring that he'll hit the volley back in a one-on-one fight, and practically no endlag. The move amplifies in power and speed with each reflection, but here's the kicker...as it gets stronger, the opponent needs a move that does more damage than the volley does to reflect it. Eventually, they won't have one that comes out fast enough to reflect the move back, and they'll be hit, as they likely can't get out of the way in time. This would weigh the move heavily in Ganondorf's favor, which is something he needs. Never let anyone try to tell you this move "wouldn't work" in Smash. They genuinely don't know what they're talking about.

So those are just some thoughts on how to further fix Ganondorf. It changes most if not all of the glaring issues that are the result of Falcondorf holdovers, enhances the moves that could still fit but need something extra, and retains the moves that fit perfectly well already. This makes him a nice mix of new and familiar, but more importantly, it makes him...him. It makes him Ganondorf.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Opossum I liked everything you said save for one very small detail. Ganondorf was raised entirely be gerudo warriors, he could definitely be a bit nimble and acrobatic because he teachers certainly are

Sidebar - how do you tag people? I just realized I’ve never done it before

 

[Guynamednelson]

have Ganondorf summon his trident and have him rake the opponent along the ground with it

Actually, I think this is the best solution for Wizard's Foot rather than scrapping the move entirely. Have it function virtually similar, but with a new animation involving his trident and the opponent being dragged along the ground before being launched if its grounded version hits, similar to Ridley's side-B.

 

[Geno Boost]

If characters get to have new moveset redesigns, who would you want them to be?

I would go with:

• - More of Wario Land using his many transformations like Fire, Fat, Zombie and Spring as attacks.
• - Go absolutely bananas with the many many copy abilities to fight with.
• - Less spin dash more attacks like Light Dash and Boost.
• - Take inspiration from Bowser's Inside Story.
• - Give him a Barrel Cannon recovery as well maybe the Moon punch as a Final Smash
• - Literally so many people want him to not be a Captain Falcon clone and something something dark magic attacks

Mine would be every echo besides Ken
Also
(should use multiple masks transformations in moveset)
(should have more wind waker references)
(should be capable of using multiple material in arm canon)
(Should have more wario land references)
(should have fairy type attacks)

 

[Sucumbio]

Sidebar - how do you tag people? I just realized I’ve never done it before

Like this HYRULESHERO42

Put in a @ sign then start typing their name and a menu will pop up and you select them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ganondorf being reworked would be cool.

But I would like people to be honest about one thing.

Ever since Brawl, people have been saying that Black Shadow should take Ganondorf's moveset and be a clone. I just feel thats... less people wanting Black Shadow and looking for ways for Ganondorf to be reworked. It feels like people don't actually care about Black Shadow. Its insulting really.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Ganondorf being reworked would be cool.

But I would like people to be honest about one thing.

Ever since Brawl, people have been saying that Black Shadow should take Ganondorf's moveset and be a clone. I just feel thats... less people wanting Black Shadow and looking for ways for Ganondorf to be reworked. It feels like people don't actually care about Black Shadow. Its insulting really.

I actually want Black Shadow

 

[Geno Boost]

Clone or not clone
having playable Black Shadow playable in smash would be the best thing F-Zero fans could receive during the past 20 years

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I actually want Black Shadow

I know.

I've just found that most people's desire for Black Shadow is just a thinly veiled desire for an uncloned Ganondorf.

If Ganondorf was already uncloned, Black Shadow wouldn't even be a blip on most people's radar.

 

[Guynamednelson]

This is why I prefer Goroh. People who would want him are more likely to want him for reasons other than "he can take ganondorf's old moveset if he was decloned". The same can also be said for Pico too.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Heck you can give Black Shadow some original moves too

like the plasma chains he used in one GX cutscene

 

[Perkilator]

If Black Shadow were in Smash, I could imagine him being a mishmash of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf with some unique tweaks here in there. Maybe, for example, you could give him a side-B with his horns with a unique twist: using it on the ground would be like Raptor Boost, and using it in the air would be like an aerial Flame Choke.

 

[Staarih]

I get why people want Ganondorf to be reworked, but at the same time I understand Sakurai's thoughts of a rework potentially alienating players who enjoy (and are used to) playing Ganondorf as he his now - especially after all this time. As such, I don't think it'll happen as long as Sakurai is the director, maybe some few tweaks here and there which we have gotten during the years. Having a complete overhaul now would almost feel out of place.

 

[Ivander]

I get why people want Ganondorf to be reworked, but at the same time I understand Sakurai's thoughts of a rework potentially alienating players who enjoy (and are used to) playing Ganondorf as he his now - especially after all this time. As such, I don't think it'll happen as long as Sakurai is the director, maybe some few tweaks here and there which we have gotten during the years. Having a complete overhaul now would almost feel out of place.

I don't think even a new director would change Ganondorf that much.

And while Ganondorf has never really been brutish in his main game forms, Ganondorf and his Ganon form being slow, but powerful and brutish in general, has definitely been both an impression and influence, considering how that notion has been in other games, like Hyrule Warriors.