Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

It's been a while since I last played Path of Radiance but I'm pretty sure that Ike and the Black Knight are supposed to have similar fighting styles due to very spoilery reasons, even though they don't really share anything in terms of gameplay. But the Black Knight using Aether shouldn't be a huge stretch.

I also think that he couldn't really work as an echo, but to be fair, before Ultimate made him an Assist Trophy I couldn't even picture him jumping, so there's that.
More than anything him and Ike having the same weight and the same speed despite the Black Knight wearing such a heavy armor would feel pretty off.

 

[cashregister9]

While I'm not attached to the idea of Black Knight as an echo (or at all)

Having Black Knight be an echo of Ike is not nearly as shoehorned as something like Funky over DK or even as bad as Dixie over Diddy. It is a lot like Dark Samus tbh. Different stats + a different sword stance is perfectly fine as an echo

but honestly these weird fringe cases are why I am starting to hate the Echo label entirely.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Veterans:



()
​

Spoiler: Veteran Reasons

Newcomers:​

Paper Mario​	Impa​	Ring Fit Trainee​	Noah (or Mio)​
Isaac​	Oatchi​	DJ Octavio​	Chun-Li​
Shadow​	Meowscarada​	Bandana Dee​	Officer Howard​
Tom Nook​	Alear​	Waluigi​	Shy Guy (Bonus DLC)​

Spoiler: Newcomer Reasons

Echo Fighters:​

​

​

Funky Kong​

Alvis​

Octoling​

Spoiler: Echo Reasons

In all honesty, I might actually like this roster more now than my previous one. All the difference one more unique face can make is astounding.
View attachment 394876

Splatoon is very, very likely to get multiple characters next game. I think only Mario and Xenoblade have similar chances of multiple new faces in a new game.

Octavio is very much a ‘speculation’ pick. And I have played Splatoon 2 + the Octo Expansion.

The idols could totally get in. But I think I need something that makes me believe in it more, like a good moveset proposal like Oatchi just got.

I should probably explain my choices a bit more. Let’s take a look.

Spoiler: Veterans

I might do the newcomers and echo fighters later.

I said I’d do these later. Let’s go.

Spoiler: Newcomers

Spoiler: Echo Fighters

Wolf is a villain. Falco is a sidekick. Villains > sidekicks.

Probably why some people see as lower priority to , despite the latter being absent from any Mario universe game since 2008, which didn’t even release in Europe.

 

[SPEN18]

Honestly, even if BK could be an Ike Echo (he couldn't), I don't think he would make it anyway. IMO people seriously underestimate how niche of a pull that is, sometimes just because of simplistic "more villains" urgings. I mean we're already pretty fortunate even to have Ike representing Tellius. Those games did not sell well, and even though Ike more than gets by on his massive popularity and the "cult-classic" status of the Tellius entries (they are some of the best in the series, and darlings for many fans), it's not a well I see them dipping further into for what is essentially a side villain, even if we're only talking about tacking on echoes. And then, yeah, BK would look pretty horrible trying to move like Ike does in Smash; it would be a pretty major overhaul required to make it work. But just saying even that is not the only obstacle to BK in Smash. There's really not much motivation for them to try to strongarm BK into an Ike clone of some sort even if it were actually possible.

 

[RileyXY1]

Probably why some people see as lower priority to , despite the latter being absent from any Mario universe game since 2008, which didn’t even release in Europe.

That's also a weird mentality considering how low priority villains usually are. Ganondorf and Dark Samus were lucky to get in as clones, Bowser Jr. almost got cut from Smash 4, Wolf actually was cut from Smash 4, and Ridley and King K. Rool needed fan popularity to get in.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I wonder, are villains more popular in Western circles than Eastern ones?

 

[MasterCheef]

The reps who folks are most excited for are boring.

My Top Most Wanted

codename : Legacy = XenoBlade Origins : protagonist
Noah + ( Mio = echo )
Officer Howard – Astral Chain
Iron Valiant ( Pokemon )
Tabuu

Vault Boy
Yumia ( Ryza = Alt ) = Atelier , via , Koei Tecmo
Harvard , from ; Deca Police
( Ahri & Lux ) - League of Legends , via Riot Games
Master Chief & Arbiter ( Halo )

 

[Gorgonzales]

So, to reiterate on why the Black Knight as an Ike Echo probably wouldn't work, for those of you who keep asking for Black Knight (Ike)…

This may as well be what you're asking for. Just look at this photo and tell me it doesn't look…off. It does.

Like I said before, AFAIK about Fire Emblem, these two don't share moves, which should probably be the case for Smash as well. And Black Knight is WAY slower than Ike is, at least from what I saw as an Assist Trophy.

Besides, Great Aether wouldn't work for Black Knight either, because every Fire Emblem fan knows that his Final Smash would probably be a more cinematic version of Eclipse.

My favorite genre of image, "Smash mod of a character (that has no business being an echo) being made into an echo and looking awful as a result".

 

[Gengar84]

I wonder, are villains more popular in Western circles than Eastern ones?

Good question. I imagine some like Sephiroth are probably really popular in Japan but I’m not sure about villains as a rule. They’re often some of the coolest characters in my opinion and I’m Western so maybe there’s something to that lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The reps who folks are most excited for are boring.

My Top Most Wanted

codename : Legacy = XenoBlade Origins : protagonist
Noah + ( Mio = echo )
Officer Howard – Astral Chain
Iron Valiant ( Pokemon )
Tabuu

Vault Boy
Yumia ( Ryza = Alt ) = Atelier , via , Koei Tecmo
Harvard , from ; Deca Police
( Ahri & Lux ) - League of Legends , via Riot Games
Master Chief & Arbiter ( Halo )

Dude called everyone's wants boring and then posted a character that doesn't exist yet.

 

[cashregister9]

We want to talk better Ike echoes though?

I'm like 90% sure that is why my guy Priam even exists

(Even then Priam could still be unique)

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Dude called everyone's wants boring and then posted a character that doesn't exist yet.

Bro said everyone's picks are boring and picked a character that doesn't exist, two characters people have brought up a ton, a Pokemon, and Tabuu for first party picks lol

And then an Atelier character, Master Chief, and League have all been brought up their fair amount, Vault Boy would be a Mii Costume upgrade, and Decapolice doesn't come out until like 2026 because Level-5 delayed it lol

 

[Slime Scholar]

The Black Knight, in canon, is supposed to have the same teacher as Ike, so it’s not as if there’s zero logic to him being an echo. But if you play the games, has this plodding, heavy, almost monstrous way of moving and fighting that doesn’t match up with Ike at all. He’s genuinely like a horror movie character when he shows up in the chapters before you can actually fight him. If he were an Ike echo, he wouldn’t even be one of the real heavyweights.

Also, the Black Knight has no canon reason to use Aether, as Ike learned that on his own. That’s probably one reason people suggest he use warp powder as his recovery move.

Love the character but I genuinely don’t think it’s worth sacrificing Ike’s uniqueness to include someone most people aren’t asking for and who wouldn’t actually fit all that well.

 

[Kirbeh]

Black knight should obviously be a echo.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

The Black Knight, in canon, is supposed to have the same teacher as Ike, so it’s not as if there’s zero logic to him being an echo. But if you play the games, has this plodding, heavy, almost monstrous way of moving and fighting that doesn’t match up with Ike at all. He’s genuinely like a horror movie character when he shows up in the chapters before you can actually fight him. If he were an Ike echo, he wouldn’t even be one of the real heavyweights.

Also, the Black Knight has no canon reason to use Aether, as Ike learned that on his own. That’s probably one reason people suggest he use warp powder as his recovery move.

Love the character but I genuinely don’t think it’s worth sacrificing Ike’s uniqueness to include someone most people aren’t asking for and who wouldn’t actually fit all that well.

You know I just had the visual image of Black Knight preforming Aether but instead of jumping into the air he just used the Warp Powder to Teleport into the air and then drops like a rock with a sword attack

Edit: I am an artistic master

 

[fogbadge]

The reps who folks are most excited for are boring.

My Top Most Wanted

codename : Legacy = XenoBlade Origins : protagonist
Noah + ( Mio = echo )
Officer Howard – Astral Chain
Iron Valiant ( Pokemon )
Tabuu

Vault Boy
Yumia ( Ryza = Alt ) = Atelier , via , Koei Tecmo
Harvard , from ; Deca Police
( Ahri & Lux ) - League of Legends , via Riot Games
Master Chief & Arbiter ( Halo )

Dude called everyone's wants boring and then posted a character that doesn't exist yet.

Made up characters you say? I’d like to put down my support for the following

Baby Toad from Mario Kart 0
Barbara the Tirkin from Xenoblade Chronicles 17
and why not go with the main character from Fire Emblem Disco Fever. he’s very handsome

 

[DarthEnderX]

This may as well be what you're asking for. Just look at this photo and tell me it doesn't look…off. It does.

A. It doesn't look off.
B. Echoes can have different idle animations. See: Dark Samus.

The Black Knight, in canon, is supposed to have the same teacher as Ike, so it’s not as if there’s zero logic to him being an echo. But if you play the games, has this plodding, heavy, almost monstrous way of moving and fighting that doesn’t match up with Ike at all.

Kind of like how Ganondorf has a plodding, heavy, way of moving and fighting that doesn’t match up with Falcon.

Also, the Black Knight has no canon reason to use Aether, as Ike learned that on his own.

Chrom also has no canon reason to use Aether. But he basically does.

You know I just had the visual image of Black Knight preforming Aether but instead of jumping into the air he just used the Warp Powder to Teleport into the air and then drops like a rock with a sword attack

And that'd be fine.

 

[Laniv]

The reps who folks are most excited for are boring.

My Top Most Wanted

codename : Legacy = XenoBlade Origins : protagonist
Noah + ( Mio = echo )
Officer Howard – Astral Chain
Iron Valiant ( Pokemon )
Tabuu

Vault Boy
Yumia ( Ryza = Alt ) = Atelier , via , Koei Tecmo
Harvard , from ; Deca Police
( Ahri & Lux ) - League of Legends , via Riot Games
Master Chief & Arbiter ( Halo )

Dawg I thought they shadow dropped a new Xenoblade game at first

 

[DarthEnderX]

While I'm not attached to the idea of Black Knight as an echo (or at all)

Having Black Knight be an echo of Ike is not nearly as shoehorned as something like Funky over DK or even as bad as Dixie over Diddy. It is a lot like Dark Samus tbh. Different stats + a different sword stance is perfectly fine as an echo

Ultimately it boils down to this: If he doesn't get upgraded to an Echo, he'll be stuck as an AT. Because he's not gonna be a unique Fighter.

 

[cashregister9]

Xenoblade Origins Protagonist?

yeah, he's called Fei Fong Wong

 

[HyperSomari64]

Made up characters you say? I’d like to put down my support for the following

Baby Toad from Mario Kart 0
Barbara the Tirkin from Xenoblade Chronicles 17
and why not go with the main character from Fire Emblem Disco Fever. he’s very handsome

Get ready for Super Smash Bros.: A Million Years Later…
Featuring characters from far into the future

• The event-exclusive myhical Pokémon from Pokémon Ketchup and Mustard
• A random NPC from [Unnamed Waluigi Spin Off]
• The australian-themed Kong from Donkey Kong: From Outback to Heck

 

[Wonder Smash]

You know what's up.

Speaking of Akira, I wonder... in the event that she in particular were added to Smash, would she be a Rival Schools rep or Street Fighter rep?

Like, could someone remind me of what Smash Ultimate classified Cody Travers as hailing from (Final Fight or Street Fighter)?

I'm pretty sure she'd be a Rival Schools rep.

Even though Cody originated from Final Fight, Street Fighter kind of reinvented his character into what we know him as today. In fact, over the years, so many characters and references from Final Fight have appeared, it's almost like it kind of lives on through Street Fighter. They're just that connected

In the case of Akira, even though Rival Schools and Street Fighter take place in the same universe, they just don't have the same level of connection. Nowhere near the same amount of characters, music, references, locations, or anything. Heck, there's nothing that really changed about Akira's character.

This is more similar to Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting; they may take place in the same universe but they are still clearly two different series.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Ultimately it boils down to this: If he doesn't get upgraded to an Echo, he'll be stuck as an AT. Because he's not gonna be a unique Fighter.

That’s honestly fine with me. And I prefer not to think of it as being “stuck.” Not every assist trophy should be viewed as a booby-prize half-step between playable and not playable.

Chrom also has no canon reason to use Aether. But he basically does.

1) Chrom actually does get aether in Awakening, appearing similarly to how it does in his Final Smash.
2) Chrom’s soaring slash animation is also based on his fighting in a cutscene, so it made enough sense to turn it into an aether-like move.

 

[Perkilator]

On the topic of Echoes…I’m sorry, but Noah & Mio can’t be Echoes of each other just because they can use each other’s classes in Xenoblade 3.

 

[cashregister9]

On the topic of Echoes…I’m sorry, but Noah & Mio can’t be Echoes of each other just because they can use each other’s classes in Xenoblade 3.

Ok a similar note, Rex cannot be an echo of Pyra and Mythra. Those 2 are literally designed around the stuff they do independently of Rex.

 

[RodNutTakin]

On the topic of Echoes…I’m sorry, but Noah & Mio can’t be Echoes of each other just because they can use each other’s classes in Xenoblade 3.

Please explain? I have never played their home game and you don't really specify a reason why here.

 

[Master_Scorpion]

So it seems like the general consensus is that Chun-Li would be the top choice for the next Street Fighter character, which makes a lot of sense. She’s one of the most iconic video game characters and among the first really popular female game characters. The question is who do you think comes next if we ever get a fourth down the line? I feel like it’s probably between three characters if we get a fully unique character: M. Bison, Guile, and Juri Han.

Bison and Guile are both really important to the plot and are popular characters that have been around since Street Fighter 2. Juri would be a fresh face that would represent the more modern side of the series and seems to be really popular in her own right. Then there’s Akuma, who is also really important and probably the most likely since he’d be easier to add as a semiclone rather than a fully original character like the previous three. Who would you choose for the fourth character if we ever get to that point?

Blanka

 

[Perkilator]

Please explain? I have never played their home game and you don't really specify a reason why here.

Because to me, it feels like people lumping these two characters’ fighting styles together when there’s so much more to them than the fact that they can use other weapons from other classes. Basically, it comes across to me as a lack of care for Noah and Mio as characters.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Please explain? I have never played their home game and you don't really specify a reason why here.

In Xenoblade 3, you unlock the ability to swap to the other characters' classes relatively early on and sort of mix and match your Arts. While Mio can use Noah's Swordfighter class and Noah can use Mio's Zephyr class because of this, having one of them be an Echo of the other by using the other's weapon and outfit would be a really strange way to represent them in Smash if you ask me, especially when a number of cutscenes still have the cast pull out their original weapons regardless of the class they're in at the time lol

 

[SPEN18]

I think the principle here is "could technically do it" =/= "should actually do it" in Smash.

 

[Pupp135]

Here are results to the Gamefaqs will they return poll. I’ll show the mean, median, and mode for each fighter.
Means are ordered.

Spoiler: Means

Spoiler: Medians

Spoiler: Modes

Spoiler: Pokemon Trainer Poll

Here are some interesting observations:

• Some characters with a high median or mode may have means lower than those with lower medians or modes. The best example of this is comparing Mario to characters like Little Mac and Ridley. Mario‘s relatively low mean is most likely to a large number of zero votes being a joke.
• Most fighters are seen to have a probability greater than 50% on a mean basis.
• Pichu and Young Link are seen as the least probable fighters to return.
• Mewtwo is seen as the most probable cut veteran to return.
• No SSB4 or Ultimate fighter has a median or mode of 100%. Ryu is seen as the most probable SSB4 DLC fighter, and Aegis is seen as the most likely Ultimate DLC fighter.
• No echo has a median or mode above 50%, and Ken is seen as the most probable one on a mean basis.
• Byleth is seen as the most probable Fighters’ Pass 1 fighter.
• The mode is higher than the median for Mii Fighters, Pac-Man, Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, and Dr. Mario.
• The median is higher than the mode for Palutena, Wolf, Min Min, Steve, Piranha Plant, and Sora.
• Greninja is the only multimodal fighter.
• The least probable DLC fighters are considered to be Piranha Plant, Sephiroth, and Sora.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm gonna be honest. I don't understand why some people prioritize Wolf over Falco on their rosters outside of personal bias. I've compared the pros and cons of each several times in my head and Falco always comes out on top.

I don't think Wolf has any X-Factor that would help him stay over Falco.

I think another thing that Wolf has over Falco is that while Wolf's changes are universally praised, whenever you see Falco show up in a mod or fan game he's reworked back to his Melee days, which says to me that people don't really care for the direction they took with him.

This may as well be what you're asking for. Just look at this photo and tell me it doesn't look…off. It does.

It doesn't...Is what I would say if Black Knight could actually see. lol

Keep in mind though that Echo Fighters are allowed animation changes, so weird quirks that would come from copying idle stances like this would be smoothed out in an official context.

Besides, Great Aether wouldn't work for Black Knight either, because every Fire Emblem fan knows that his Final Smash would probably be a more cinematic version of Eclipse.

Echo Fighters can have different Final Smashes than their counterparts.

but honestly these weird fringe cases are why I am starting to hate the Echo label entirely.

Yeah it's pretty clear that people currently see Echo Fighters as literally just skins with 0 liberties taken despite how many have at least some balance changes. Now, how far that can be pushed is a question that we don't have the answer to, and I dunno how it would work in the context of Black Knight. I think if anything were to stop it from happening, it would be that the whole character would have to be built around his physics, meaning that just giving him Ike's moveset with alterations wouldn't be sufficient.

Edit: I am an artistic master

The implication here is that Warp Powder doesn't do any damage, but he has a hitbox while falling due to how heavy he is, and honestly, I'm here for it. lol

On the topic of Echoes…I’m sorry, but Noah & Mio can’t be Echoes of each other just because they can use each other’s classes in Xenoblade 3.

They absolutely can, but in practice, it would be too weird to add either one without the ability for them to use their base class. And if you add both then there's not a whole lot of point to it.

 

[ninjahmos]

I guess, if you look at Chrom, the idea of Black Knight as an Ike Echo wouldn't seem too outlandish. As long as they change the stance.

But still, I'm not sure BK using Ike's moves would look right…

BTW What do you guys think of my new profile picture?

In case you're wondering, it's Snake's Codec portrait from MGS1.

 

[NintenRob]

I wonder, if Chrom was cut but Robin stayed. Do you reckon Chrom would still appear in Robins final Smash and victory animation. Aside from Trophies, Smash tends to avoid using cut veterans in Non playable roles. Closest I can think of is Wolf being carried over in the Lylat Cruise chats.

 

[Will]

I wonder, if Chrom was cut but Robin stayed. Do you reckon Chrom would still appear in Robins final Smash and victory animation. Aside from Trophies, Smash tends to avoid using cut veterans in Non playable roles. Closest I can think of is Wolf being carried over in the Lylat Cruise chats.

Hell yeah they’ll recycle it, if it saves the devs time putting the character together. What else would they do, spend resources creating something new?

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

Still archiving the Smash 4 Hype, and I'm surprised this thread is still open

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I wonder, if Chrom was cut but Robin stayed. Do you reckon Chrom would still appear in Robins final Smash and victory animation. Aside from Trophies, Smash tends to avoid using cut veterans in Non playable roles. Closest I can think of is Wolf being carried over in the Lylat Cruise chats.

I mean probably? He's still in those roles while being playable in Ultimate, so I don't think that would change unless they just decided to give Robin a new Final Smash for whatever reason, like they occasionally do for others lol

 

[Diddy Kong]

While I'm not attached to the idea of Black Knight as an echo (or at all)

Having Black Knight be an echo of Ike is not nearly as shoehorned as something like Funky over DK or even as bad as Dixie over Diddy. It is a lot like Dark Samus tbh. Different stats + a different sword stance is perfectly fine as an echo

but honestly these weird fringe cases are why I am starting to hate the Echo label entirely.

You said it before me. I was about the quote the original post concerning the Black Knight. Its a good comparison here.

The Black Knight over Ike would be shoehorned however. Ike might be a heavyweight swordsman but compared to the Black Knight he's a lightweight in comparison. This is the entire dynamic of power that makes the Black Knight so intimidating in FE9 and FE10. Ike's games of origin.

Despite spoilers they don't actually fight the same. At all. And there's obvious weight class differences. Also in combat animations and abilities.

With the Kongs it's even worse. Way worse. All these characters, Dixie, Funky and the Black Knight could borrow aspects from Diddy, DK and Ike but full on Echo? That's just pushing it.

 

[BritishGuy54]

On the topic of Echoes…I’m sorry, but Noah & Mio can’t be Echoes of each other just because they can use each other’s classes in Xenoblade 3.

If you want an echo for Noah, N is right there.
If you want an echo for Mio, Nia isn’t a bad shout.

They shouldn’t be echoes of each other.

 

[cashregister9]

If you want an echo for Mio, Nia isn’t a bad shout.

Even then, I think Nia has more than enough to be a unique fighter, there are so many ways you could take it (Personally I think she would be a great pick actually)

If you really need an echo for Mio, M is also there.