Official Smash for Switch 2 - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Oh don't even get me started on the custom moves. Those would have been perfect for Daisy, or Lakitu, or whoever could have been a Mega Man echo

Bass.

I'm somehow simultaneously aggressively disinterested in the concept of adding Cranky Kong, and expect that if they did add him that I'd find him to be one of the most charming characters added within that game.

Whatever gets Scrooge's pogo jump into Smash.

That said, I think it'd pretty concrete that Echoes need to share the same basic skeleton and body type, even if the animations are different.

They shouldn't though.

Clones should also be classified as Echoes.

 

[ninjahmos]

If we ever get either Marco/Eri/Tarma/Fio or Metal Slug with the former driving it for Smash, I'd love to hear some more music from the series, especially Smash remixes of Inner Station, Metamorphosis/Steel Beast, Judgment, Blue Water Fangs, Midnight Wandering, Desert, Into the Cosmos, Kiss in the Dark, First Contact, Final Attack and Hold You Still.

 

[DarthEnderX]

1. All echoes so far have made their non-Smash debut after their parent character (ie Dark Samus debuting after Samus)

2. All echoes so far are from the same series as their parent character (Peach and Daisy, Simon and Richter)

Do you think we'll ever see a break from these patterns?

2. No.

Hell, so far Ganondorf is the only clone that's from a different series as his parent character. And they need to undo that.

If people have any slightly reasonable excuse to pin someone as an echo, they'll do it.

In all seriousness, this.

Adding an Echo adds another character, without using the dev resources of a unique character. So you end up getting twice the characters.

If a character can be an Echo, they should be.

 

[cashregister9]

I was working on redoing my list of most wanted characters and updating my Signature and such and with that I made a list of "Characters who I would like to see as Echoes but obviously if they were unique I would not complain and some of them could be easily be unique please don't get mad at me."

 

[DarthEnderX]

I was working on redoing my list of most wanted characters and updating my Signature and such and with that I made a list of "Characters who I would like to see as Echoes but obviously if they were unique I would not complain and some of them could be easily be unique please don't get mad at me."

Echoes Wishlist
10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]
82e. Roxas [Sora]

 

[Swamp Sensei]

All this talk of echoes has me pondering.

We know Isabelle was interested from the start to be included in Ultimate. As one of Nintendo's premier characters, it makes sense. But why was she planned to be an echo? Was it a lack of creativity? Time constraints? Why? Does Sakurai see value in semiclones?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

All this talk of echoes has me pondering.

We know Isabelle was interested from the start to be included in Ultimate. As one of Nintendo's premier characters, it makes sense. But why was she planned to be an echo? Was it a lack of creativity? Time constraints? Why? Does Sakurai see value in semiclones?

Honestly?

Probably because he saw value in the character herself because of how big a deal she had become after New Leaf dropped during Smash For's development, but didn't see her "dancing" in his head as much as other characters. Seeing the "office supplies and public property" angle but not able to picture a full concept out of it, so just make a variant of the existing fighter to fill anything remaining.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

All this talk of echoes has me pondering.

We know Isabelle was interested from the start to be included in Ultimate. As one of Nintendo's premier characters, it makes sense. But why was she planned to be an echo? Was it a lack of creativity? Time constraints? Why? Does Sakurai see value in semiclones?

Was she planned as an Echo Fighter? I know he explained why she wasn't one, but I don't remember him saying that she was originally going to be one.

The answer to the last question is a definite "yes" though, as new clones have been added in every installment:


Also technically Pyra and Mythra are clones of each other, but the whole package isn't a clone of anyone so I just decided they're too weird to put in the lineup, but it's still worth mentioning.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Bass.

Not gonna lie i feel Bass is different enough to be his own character.

Protoman would make more sense as an echo.

 

[Louie G.]

Probably because he saw value in the character herself because of how big a deal she had become after New Leaf dropped during Smash For's development

This is why I had assumed Isabelle would be her own distinct fighter from early on. Perhaps if she fit the mold a bit better she could have been an echo fighter, but I think it ultimately would have been doing a disservice to a character who in recent years has arguably become Nintendo's tertiary mascot behind Mario and Link. Certainly worth a little more stock than a glorified costume. Behind Inkling she was the biggest rising star of that era and has only gotten bigger since. If she was an echo fighter I think many of us would be speculating her breaking free of that role next game.

Was it a lack of creativity? Time constraints? Why? Does Sakurai see value in semiclones?

I do think her role as a semiclone chalks up to a relative lack of vision. I hope he'll peel away at this more down the line, but Isabelle is admittedly a character that doesn't offer that much outside of Villager's general capabilities aside from... being Isabelle, who is an extremely dynamic and well defined character. So that is value enough, as far as I'm concerned, and still gives her a unique presence. I think the changes that they did end up deciding on were great choices, the party popper and stop sign are fantastic, but I can understand why they hit a wall at some point. Isabelle using the slingshot still doesn't sit quite right with me, but I have no expectation of that changing since her kit is sort of balanced around it.

That isn't to write off Animal Crossing altogether though, I've expressed a dozen different things Tom Nook can do and I can see him "dancing" in Sakurai's head a bit better than Isabelle as a more distinct fighter. Just hard to pass up on Isabelle's cute animations, and well... at a certain point, I'm pretty sure Nintendo would politely ask Sakurai to include her anyway. I have my qualms about Isabelle's implementation but I'll confess it's difficult to build that much more off of the "office supplies and public works" premise. So it's fine.

 

[NintenRob]

Don't forget Villager himself was someone Sakurai initially struggled to see as a fighter due to the pacifist nature of the series

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Don't forget Villager himself was someone Sakurai initially struggled to see as a fighter due to the pacifist nature of the series

That being said, I remember in the same source that spoke of Diddy and Dixie being a planned thing that Sakurai had ideas on how an Animal Crossing character would work by using tools like a bug net or shovel; he just didn't think a character made sense as a fighter because it didn't fit the image of the series.

 

[SharkLord]

-S-
GET EQUIPPED
WITH
SPINY-THROW

Mario and Luigi watching the Lakitus throw their iconic Metal Blades in all eight cardinal directions

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Thinking on Isabelle, I'm not really sure how I'd tweak her to try and lean into the whole Public Works angle or anything, the main thing I feel like will change for Isabelle is just one of her costumes (probably the springtime pink short sleeved one) will be replaced with her pink tropical shirt island look from New Horizons.

 

[SharkLord]

I was working on redoing my list of most wanted characters and updating my Signature and such and with that I made a list of "Characters who I would like to see as Echoes but obviously if they were unique I would not complain and some of them could be easily be unique please don't get mad at me."

Roxas would technically make sense, because as far as I know, the bulk of his playable appearances have basically been riffs on KH1 Sora. That being said, dual-wielding Keyblades is infinitely cooler.

I haven't gotten to play Kingdom Hearts, but I think Xion would theoretically also work? From what I've read, she plays the same as the single-bladed Roxas in 358/2, and is a literal clone of Sora with a straight replica of his Kingdom Key. I know she pulls out some crazy stuff in her Re:Mind Data fight, but it's not as iconic to her character as having two Keyblades.

Blaze I would object to as a Sonic Echo just because Sonic's moveset is kinda weird in a way that sorta fits his character and doesn't really fit anyone else. If Sonic had a cooler, more dynamic kit I'd probably be more open. Also less spinballs, Blaze does a little fire tornado type of spin instead and unless we get rid of a lot of Sonic's spinball normals, she'd probably be upped to semiclone status because of that

 

[Kirbeh]

Re (K):

I think the most tiring aspect of the Dixie/Funky echo talk (aside from how frequent it is) is that both sides are correct but don't want the opposing outcome to the point they claim it isn't possible.

You could absolutely make Dixie and Funky echoes of Diddy and DK. Is that ideal? Depends on who you ask.

For me, no, I'd want them to be unique, but you could go either way with the characters, and it'd still work.

Smash is and has always been faithful to the source material... except when it doesn't want to be. That's not to say that Sakurai and the dev team don't take a lot of time and care to make characters "feel" like themselves, but they've bent the rules or made stuff out of necessity just as often. And even then, mileage will vary from fan to fan.

There's no shortage of contentious examples.

You can make a Dixie that doesn't use her hair or a Funky that doesn't use his surfboard. Or versions that use them sparingly if you like.

You can make a Dixie that uses her hair for most of her moves or a Funky with surfing and other weapons in tow. I want to reiterate that this latter option is the one that I want, but the former option is still perfectly plausible no matter how much I or other fans of those characters would dislike it.

By that same token, it's laughable to claim that Dixie is only capable of being an echo and that Funky has zero move set potential when half the roster does completely made-up Smash original stuff for a lot of their moves.

An inability or (in most cases) unwillingness to use a little imagination doesn't invalidate a character. If you simply don't care for them/are uninterested then that's fine but trying to dismiss characters, simply doesn't fly (mostly, I won't fight anyone for dismissing unnamed background npcs.)

Lastly, let's not forget to separate wants from expectations. Somone can want a character to be unique while still having the expectation/acceptance that they might be an echo. I feel like a good number of people fall into this camp, but the echo vs unique arguments always tend to go into the whole "you're either for one or the other and if you're not in MY camp, here's why your opinion is wrong".

Rant over.

Solution: give us all the major Kongs. Maybe even Swanky.

 

[cashregister9]

Roxas would technically make sense, because as far as I know, the bulk of his playable appearances have basically been riffs on KH1 Sora. That being said, dual-wielding Keyblades is infinitely cooler.

I haven't gotten to play Kingdom Hearts, but I think Xion would theoretically also work? From what I've read, she plays the same as the single-bladed Roxas in 358/2, and is a literal clone of Sora with a straight replica of his Kingdom Key. I know she pulls out some crazy stuff in her Re:Mind Data fight, but it's not as iconic to her character as having two Keyblades.

Blaze I would object to as a Sonic Echo just because Sonic's moveset is kinda weird in a way that sorta fits his character and doesn't really fit anyone else. If Sonic had a cooler, more dynamic kit I'd probably be more open. Also less spinballs, Blaze does a little fire tornado type of spin instead and unless we get rid of a lot of Sonic's spinball normals, she'd probably be upped to semiclone status because of that

My Ideal Sora Echo would actually be Roxas and Xion, the first 4 alts are Roxas and the last 4 alts are Xion lol.

For Blaze as an echo, perfect circumstances would have Sonic getting a brand new moveset, and Blaze becomes a clone that shares moves with new and old sonic and visually changes them up a bit. Obviously though, her being unique/semi-clone would be the best option.

 

[Louie G.]

"Characters who I would like to see as Echoes but obviously if they were unique I would not complain and some of them could be easily be unique please don't get mad at me."

I don't wanna open another can of worms echo conversation, but I'll just say if Isabelle couldn't be an echo of Villager then Tom Nook can't be an echo of either of them. Just on a practical level, he has a different body type than the both of them so he'd likely have to be built from the ground up and end up a semiclone at worst. Isabelle required new animations across the board and was pretty much derivative of Villager completely by choice rather than limitation.

Like, I'd rather not continue to be a stickler after all that talk from earlier today but this is one where we have pretty concrete evidence.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

If both Spyro and Lara Croft got into Super Smash the next WTF characters could be Tara Croft:

 

[Geno Boost]

do you guys think a 2nd disney rep can happen if sora returns by the next smash game? i assume roxas as echo would be the most likely addition but i would be hyped if club penguin makes it in

 

[fogbadge]

Roxas would technically make sense, because as far as I know, the bulk of his playable appearances have basically been riffs on KH1 Sora. That being said, dual-wielding Keyblades is infinitely cooler.

I haven't gotten to play Kingdom Hearts, but I think Xion would theoretically also work? From what I've read, she plays the same as the single-bladed Roxas in 358/2, and is a literal clone of Sora with a straight replica of his Kingdom Key. I know she pulls out some crazy stuff in her Re:Mind Data fight, but it's not as iconic to her character as having two Keyblades.

she is not a literal clone. it's far stranger than that

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Re: Bowser's voice; it still made sense during Brawl to use the roaring one, as he was still a feral-like fighter. It's 4 and Ultimate that completely changes him to be more human-like. That, imo, is when he should've gotten a new voice befitting it(Giga Bowser could keep the roars, though, as he's far more feral in design).

 

[Oracle Link]

I have a proposition:
Should semiclones be called echoes too?
Or not?

Also i never saw the apeal of having Champion link and classic adult Link as an echo when the lil guys are RIGHT THERE! yes theyre a bit more work but theres already two models and animations to pull from! And i mean why revamp the classic link! Toon and youngs movesets are fine (atleast as the only small one)

 

[Hypercat-Z]

do you guys think a 2nd disney rep can happen if sora returns by the next smash game? i assume roxas as echo would be the most likely addition but i would be hyped if club penguin makes it in

I hope not but I fear it can happen, most probably with Ralph, because he's the most videogamish Disney character and because he already appeared in an actual videogame.
What really concerns me about that are conseguences.
Remember what happened after Snake and Sonic came to Smash?

 

[NintenRob]

Re: Bowser's voice; it still made sense during Brawl to use the roaring one, as he was still a feral-like fighter. It's 4 and Ultimate that completely changes him to be more human-like. That, imo, is when he should've gotten a new voice befitting it(Giga Bowser could keep the roars, though, as he's far more feral in design).

I wonder, none of the Mario cast have recorded voice lines for Smash since Brawl. Even Rosalina, Bowser Jr and Daisy just use voice clips from elsewhere. Could Bowser simply be because they stuck with Brawl clips for everyone else

But now that the Mario cast has had significant change in talent, it's fairly likely they'll all receive new voice clips in the next game. Heck, Rosalina is still stuck with Kerri Kane voice lines. A big update is very warranted and it may be the opportunity for Bowser (and DK and Diddy) to finally get proper voices

 

[Geno Boost]

I hope not but I fear it can happen, most probably with Ralph, because he's the most videogamish Disney character and because he already appeared in an actual videogame.
What really concerns me about that are conseguences.
Remember what happened after Snake and Sonic came to Smash?

i think Ralph would probably be something Disney would pick themselves since they are still using him

 

[Gengar84]

2. No.

Hell, so far Ganondorf is the only clone that's from a different series as his parent character. And they need to undo that.

In all seriousness, this.

Adding an Echo adds another character, without using the dev resources of a unique character. So you end up getting twice the characters.

If a character can be an Echo, they should be.

I agree with the general sentiment here. Echoes are a great way to get minor characters we may never have seen otherwise because they’re so much easier to make than a full character. However, I’ll differ in saying that I think if a character has enough importance to their series and unique moveset potential to get in on their own, I prefer unique over echo. I don’t really want to be stuck with a Ganondorf situation again where the character makes it in as a clone due to time constraints but never gets a fully fleshed out original moveset because of concerns that people are used to how they play already.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I wonder, none of the Mario cast have recorded voice lines for Smash since Brawl. Even Rosalina, Bowser Jr and Daisy just use voice clips from elsewhere. Could Bowser simply be because they stuck with Brawl clips for everyone else

But now that the Mario cast has had significant change in talent, it's fairly likely they'll all receive new voice clips in the next game. Heck, Rosalina is still stuck with Kerri Kane voice lines. A big update is very warranted and it may be the opportunity for Bowser (and DK and Diddy) to finally get proper voices

On top of this, I hope that Dr. Mario comes back so that he's not stuck with repurposing Mario's lines for his victory screens. It's a minor thing, but it is pretty obvious.

 

[Perkilator]

NGL, this conversation has just intensified me to make Funky unique for my WIP moveset of him.

Spoiler

 

[Hypercat-Z]

i think Ralph would probably be something Disney would pick themselves since they are still using him

Very probably.
But I wonder how Nintendo can manage the relationship with Disney and the relationship with Universal at the same time, since they are kind of rivals.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

View attachment 394262

Spoiler

I love how everyone gives Funky his iconic Flame Runner.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Re: Bowser's voice; it still made sense during Brawl to use the roaring one, as he was still a feral-like fighter. It's 4 and Ultimate that completely changes him to be more human-like. That, imo, is when he should've gotten a new voice befitting it(Giga Bowser could keep the roars, though, as he's far more feral in design).

Even though Smash 4 moved away from Brawl's grittiness you could still feel a lot of it lingering in the reused voice lines and some animations. Some victory themes too.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Replace Giga with Fury Bowser (both Boss and Final Smash) if You want something "modern".

I think the first is very outdated (even if it was Sakurai's childhood fantasy), and let's move away from that.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I love how everyone gives Funky his iconic Flame Runner.

The kids love this one!

 

[Louie G.]

I like Fury Bowser a lot, and if they did implement it I certainly wouldn’t mind, but I think treating it as some sort of replacement for Giga Bowser is kinda pointless. Once Fury Bowser’s time has passed it will be another giant version of Bowser in the next game.

It’s inoffensive for Smash to have its own unique version of that, and IMO sticking to Giga Bowser probably ages a lot better than constantly switching up to accommodate the latest thing. If that’s the concern.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

That's probably the biggest thing that irritates me about all this.
It's pointed out dozens of times how Funky has his surfboard as a major tool for his potential moveset with the variety of ways it can function, and it's shut down as not even worth considering....."but Dixie has a ponytail, guys! She can do so many things with it that makes her so unique and special and not even possible to be like Diddy in any conceivable way!"

I'm sick of the double standards and hypocrisy.

The double standard really is in the DKC games themselves, Dixie actually does unique stuff with her ponytail there, while Funky is usually restricted to standing still in a single screen where he sells you stuff (except for his mode in TF).
Of course you could make Funky into a fully unique character as well, but that goes for pretty much anyone. I feel like you'd have to freestyle him a lot more compared to Dixie.
Dixie already has quite a few traits to work off of: the glide, the long-distance grab, being slower than Diddy and not jumping as high, the bubblegum gun... it's all in the DKC games themselves, you just need to expand on those traits a little. Funky on the other hand is only playable in Tropical Freeze where he has the same speed and jump height as DK himself.
Again, yeah of course you can give him a unique moveset: he has the surfing board, the weapons association (although he never used any of the weapons he gives you in DK64 himself and I'm not sure giving the Coconut Gun to him instead of DK would feel right), heck you could give him the orange grenades also from DK64... But again, you'd have to freestyle him for the most part.

Personally, I like playing as Dixie in DKC, and a Dixie in Smash that plays like Dixie is an appealing concept to me.
I also like Funky, and I'd like to play as him in Smash, but Funky's whole character is essentially being rad, which can be conveyed in plenty of ways.
Personally, I feel like "surfboard: the character" isn't necessarily the best way to go about it, and if you have to deviate from his original portrayal anyways, I'd be more than fine with him being an echo.
Plenty of echo characters have different idle animations compared to their counterparts, I don't see why that would be a problem for Funky. Make him do flashy poses for his attacks with a constant grin as opposed to DK's angry expressions, transform the Giant Punch into an uppercut, make him spin on his surfboard for Spinning Kong and give him his actual voice instead of gorilla grunts and I think you've already landed pretty close to the feel playing as Funky Kong should give you. DK's moveset is already pretty flashy on its own... You also leave plenty less canon material on the floor compared to what you would by making Dixie an echo.

Hope I've explained my feelings, everybody's free to want what they want of course

 

[Gorgonzales]

That's it, I'm sick of this DK series echo discourse and putting an end to it.

We're going back in time to the development of the original DKC trilogy to convince Rare to give Funky and Dixie notably different proportions from DK and Diddy.

 

[fogbadge]

That's it, I'm sick of this DK series echo discourse and putting an end to it.

We're going back in time to the development of the original DKC trilogy to convince Rare to give Funky and Dixie notably different proportions from DK and Diddy.

if this ends up erasing DK64 from history you’ll be hearing from my time lawyers

 

[HyperSomari64]

if this ends up erasing DK64 from history you’ll be hearing from my time lawyers

No, 64 will be fine.

Meanwhile the DKC cartoon...

 

[PeridotGX]

Do we think Lethal Company could get represented in the next game? It got a costume in Fortnite less than a year after release, which is crazy for an indie.

I'm not suggesting it get a fighter, but a Mii Costume seems reasonable.