Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[RodNutTakin]

I think it will be Cloud and Hero in base, and Sephiroth dangled as tasty looking DLC per Square Enix's request.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

First, why does it matter if it's "not the 90s anymore"? No matter what decade it is, if there's a major time period during the series run, it's relevant to the series and character's iconic status and it's something worth looking into. Plus, with the series having three major hit games, thinking she's still something of the past is crazy. You might as well apply this to Crash too.

I think it's a "the series is still active, but it's a lot less ubiquitous" kind of deal, and that does matter, but in this context it's mainly insofar as it doesn't really make for a long discussion on its own, and speaking as if she was still at the height of her iconic status is a bit unhelpful, because she isn't. It's not denying that she was ever there or that the fact that she was there doesn't matter, it's just that she isn't there anymore, and that also matters.

It's kind of like how Star Fox was super revolutionary in its time, but now is most known for dying a very slow and painful death because it failed to capitalize on what makes it so great. When people discuss Fox's return as a veteran fighter, it's often on the basis of him being iconic to Super Smash Bros. specifically, rather than any enthusiasm for the series itself. If he were never added, he'd definitely have fans, but I'm not sure he'd be considered all that likely a pick, especially given the source material. Heh, it'd be kind of amusing looking at the alternate timeline where people are arguing against Fox because they'd rather have a character that "lends themself to Smash better". That was kind of a tangent there, and Lara clearly isn't in that dire a straight, but I do think it's a decent parallel. Admittedly, Samus might be a stronger one; A character once held in high esteem as one of the first major female characters in gaming, but is now just one character among many.

Second, this isn't feuding with Speed Weed. I really didn't want to talk to him anymore. I even left his Battle of AGES thread after following it for a while. And if anything, I'd rather you not make anymore excuses for him. I don't know why you keep doing that. Sure, misunderstandings happen a lot but people do admit to it in the same conversation. He still to this day never said that his outrageous accusation was a misunderstanding. Instead, he just keeps posting here like nothing happened and ignores it even whenever I bring it up. He clearly doesn't care.

(As a matter of fact, who does? I mean, nobody else called him out on it but they want to call out certain other people that I'm not going to name.)

Moving on would be better if he takes back what he said. Until then, I'm sticking to how I feel and how I handle it. To think that I'm the kind of person that would use somebody's death to push for a character inclusion? That is absolutely insane and I'm not going along with other people making excuses for him, unless he says these things himself. This goes for Verde too, by the way.

I'm not making excuses for anyone. It's just that for better or worse, I try to point out when people don't seem to be understanding each other, and when I don't have a horse in the race, my reading of these kinds of things are extremely neutral. I do have a feeling that I've overstepped this time, and this is quickly becoming off topic, so I'll try not to say too much more.

I also have a fairly aggressive tendency to rationalize things in order to shrug off things that otherwise annoy me, so I apologize if it felt like I was just trying to force my placid behavior onto you, and I double apologize if that's actually what happened, because that's very not OK.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'm still of the opinion that Hero and Sora will be base game. I also still think Cloud and Sephiroth will be DLC as a little dual pack, partially for money, but I also can't deny it's really funny to imagine a pack where it's basically Cloud and his memory demon that won't leave him alone for an instant.

Like if we get one, we have to get the other now that we have both, so why not package them together as like an FF7 pack so you can't just have one or the other? lol

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think it's a "the series is still active, but it's a lot less ubiquitous" kind of deal, and that does matter, but in this context it's mainly insofar as it doesn't really make for a long discussion on its own, and speaking as if she was still at the height of her iconic status is a bit unhelpful, because she isn't. It's not denying that she was ever there or that the fact that she was there doesn't matter, it's just that she isn't there anymore, and that also matters.

It's kind of like how Star Fox was super revolutionary in its time, but now is most known for dying a very slow and painful death because it failed to capitalize on what makes it so great. When people discuss Fox's return as a veteran fighter, it's often on the basis of him being iconic to Super Smash Bros. specifically, rather than any enthusiasm for the series itself. If he were never added, he'd definitely have fans, but I'm not sure he'd be considered all that likely a pick, especially given the source material. Heh, it'd be kind of amusing looking at the alternate timeline where people are arguing against Fox because they'd rather have a character that "lends themself to Smash better". That was kind of a tangent there, and Lara clearly isn't in that dire a straight, but I do think it's a decent parallel. Admittedly, Samus might be a stronger one; A character once held in high esteem as one of the first major female characters in gaming, but is now just one character among many.

A series is not going to always be as big as it was before. Double Dragon, one of my favorite series, is one example of that. But if a series is so big that it still gets brought up and it's still active with some solid games, it really shouldn't matter. It makes no sense to only go by the status of the character or their series now. Everything is important about the character, including back decades before, counts,

I'm not making excuses for anyone. It's just that for better or worse, I try to point out when people don't seem to be understanding each other, and when I don't have a horse in the race, my reading of these kinds of things are extremely neutral. I do have a feeling that I've overstepped this time, and this is quickly becoming off topic, so I'll try not to say too much more.

I also have a fairly aggressive tendency to rationalize things in order to shrug off things that otherwise annoy me, so I apologize if it felt like I was just trying to force my placid behavior onto you, and I double apologize if that's actually what happened, because that's very not OK.

It's all cool. I got no beef with you. It's just that if he really didn't mean any harm and it was all a misunderstanding (and a very strange one at that), he would have already cleared this up himself. For him to not do that or even say anything at all, it shows a different side to his character and it's just frustrating when people try speak for him, turn a blind eye, or tell me to move on, as that's basically giving him a pass for his bad behavior that he'll eventually keep showing again.

(By the way, he also called somebody a "fake fan" just because they made a slight error about a SEGA game. So yeah, he's not what people think he is.)

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm still of the opinion that Hero and Sora will be base game. I also still think Cloud and Sephiroth will be DLC as a little dual pack, partially for money, but I also can't deny it's really funny to imagine a pack where it's basically Cloud and his memory demon that won't leave him alone for an instant.

Like if we get one, we have to get the other now that we have both, so why not package them together as like an FF7 pack so you can't just have one or the other? lol

Don't really think so. Considering the FF content in Smash 4 and Ultimate prior to Sephiroth making it in was weirdly low, I think Cloud and Sephiroth are prime DLC candidates. And they will be cause their removal will make their support all the more loud. I also remember Everyone Is Here almost didn't happen, but Sakurai never specified which company was the obstacle. It probably was Square.

But I do think Hero will be there. Possibly with a second Dragon Quest character. Am thinking either Slime or even Erik.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Don't really think so. Considering the FF content in Smash 4 and Ultimate prior to Sephiroth making it in was weirdly low, I think Cloud and Sephiroth are prime DLC candidates. And they will be cause their removal will make their support all the more loud. I also remember Everyone Is Here almost didn't happen, but Sakurai never specified which company was the obstacle. It probably was Square.

But I do think Hero will be there. Possibly with a second Dragon Quest character. Am thinking either Slime or even Erik.

I mean we're on the same page there, Hero base game, Cloud/Seph as DLC, so the "Don't really think so" is confusing me a little, but yeah I agree lol

Not so sure on a second Dragon Quest character, but it's definitely possible since it's such a household name in Japan. I feel like Square will just throw another franchise in with the DLC, whether that's something more classic like Chrono Trigger or something like 2B for Nier (cuz I mean if she can be in Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising and Soul Calibur 6, she could definitely end up here lol).

I'm kinda partially hoping Hero is base game just so he can pull a Mega Man/Castlevania and get a **** ton of remixes since the old composer is dead and his replacement understands that "hey maybe the video game music shouldn't be made into bad midis on purpose to sell the real version as a concert album and the real version should just be in the video game to begin with".

 

[Diddy Kong]

I mean we're on the same page there, Hero base game, Cloud/Seph as DLC, so the "Don't really think so" is confusing me a little, but yeah I agree lol

Not so sure on a second Dragon Quest character, but it's definitely possible since it's such a household name in Japan. I feel like Square will just throw another franchise in with the DLC, whether that's something more classic like Chrono Trigger or something like 2B for Nier (cuz I mean if she can be in Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising and Soul Calibur 6, she could definitely end up here lol).

I'm kinda partially hoping Hero is base game just so he can pull a Mega Man/Castlevania and get a **** ton of remixes since the old composer is dead and his replacement understands that "hey maybe the video game music shouldn't be made into bad midis on purpose to sell the real version as a concert album and the real version should just be in the video game to begin with".

Oh I read you thought of Cloud as base game contender too. In which I'm a little unsure tbh. I could see either happen.

But Hero am 100% confident in. For the most part.

 

[DarthEnderX]

None of the SE characters will be base game!

Instead, they're gonna sell you the "Square Enix Fighters Pass":

Cloud
Sephiroth
Hero
Sora
Geno
Crono

 

[Perkilator]

I still feel like at least Banjo and Sora will be in the base game purely because of how requested they were.

 

[Gengar84]

Okay, I guess I’m in the minority with this take as well. I don’t think a franchise has to be currently relevant to be deserving of a character in Smash. I think Smash is best as a celebration of the history of gaming. If a game or series was huge during the 80’s, 90’s, or any other era but has fallen off since, it should still be in the discussion for a Smash inclusion due to its historical significance. If we’re lucky, Smash could even serve as a launching point for a new game in an otherwise dormant series kind of like what it did for Kid Icarus.

I just feel like always defaulting to what’s currently relevant causes Smash to feel less like a celebration and more like an advertisement. That said, newer games are important too but I don’t think they should be a guarantee at the exclusion of everything else. I believe people focus a bit too much on the advertisement side of Smash and often dismiss older characters for that reason. Another downside of always going with what’s big right now is it could cause those characters to feel more dated in later entries. If I were making the game, I’d try to put an equal focus on representing characters from every console generation.

 

[Will]

On one hand, Nintendo willingly paid for the rights to Sephiroth, and it’s probably in their best interests to get him and his twink friend back in the game.

On the other hand, I can’t really argue against corporate greed and letting FF7 print DLC money. Sounds like something Nintendo would do.

 

[fogbadge]

On one hand, Nintendo willingly paid for the rights to Sephiroth, and it’s probably in their best interests to get him and his twink friend back in the game.

On the other hand, I can’t really argue against corporate greed and letting FF7 print DLC money. Sounds like something Nintendo would do.

I don’t think cloud counts as a twink

 

[ScrubReborn]

I don't think Sora's more likely to be base than Cloud lol. Or likely to be base at all. I don't trust Disney not to bleed Nintendo's pockets dry for that. I imagine Sora more as permanent DLC bait tho, Nintendo ain't finna want him to go forever.

If only one Squeenix character is base, I'm sure it'll be Cloud. Sure ppl say he was hard to get for Ultimate... but they still got him lol. And I'm sure that DLC fed Square's pockets like a turkey dinner so I can't see them suddenly goin' more hardball. Especially if Nintendo promises more DLC from them in return. Fully ready for this to blow in my face but I think Cloud got a good future ahead of him.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It makes no sense to only go by the status of the character or their series now.

That right there was the point. You can't just go by how popular Tomb Raider was a long time ago, but during SSBU's DLC, it was all that was being brought up. And so, discussion of her died just as quickly as it was brought up; nobody had anything else to say about her, so there really wasn't anything else to discuss.

Okay, I guess I’m in the minority with this take as well. I don’t think a franchise has to be currently relevant to be deserving of a character in Smash. I think Smash is best as a celebration of the history of gaming. If a game or series was huge during the 80’s, 90’s, or any other era but has fallen off since, it should still be in the discussion for a Smash inclusion due to its historical significance. If we’re lucky, Smash could even serve as a launching point for a new game in an otherwise dormant series kind of like what it did for Kid Icarus.

I just feel like always defaulting to what’s currently relevant causes Smash to feel less like a celebration and more like an advertisement. That said, newer games are important too but I don’t think they should be a guarantee at the exclusion of everything else. I believe people focus a bit too much on the advertisement side of Smash and often dismiss older characters for that reason. Another downside of always going with what’s big right now is it could cause those characters to feel more dated in later entries. If I were making the game, I’d try to put an equal focus on representing characters from every console generation.

I agree, though I think just due to how things work, older characters are more of base game fare, with older DLC characters being entirely relegated to popular 3rd party picks.

As far as who we'll get, I think if we're getting another NES rep, it's going to be Excite Biker, and they'll bring music from ExciteTruck and ExciteBots with them. I also think Mach Rider is possible as an Echo Fighter, but that I'm much less confident in. Other than that, I think Isaac has the best shot.

 

[Borskaboska]

What do you think the chances of Nahobino are? I think SMT5 did well. Didn't play it but I think he looks cool.

As far as who we'll get, I think if we're getting another NES rep, it's going to be Excite Biker, and they'll bring music from ExciteTruck and ExciteBots with them. I also think Mach Rider is possible as an Echo Fighter, but that I'm much less confident in. Other than that, I think Isaac has the best shot.

I am pro Excite Biker as well. A character that fights while riding a motorcycle it silly enough to appeal to me, and if you stick to his 8bit sprite proportions you could probably make grabbing onto ledges and stuff look fine. Plus the overheat meter from Excitebike would easily work as a character gimmick like other newer smash characters.
Though, back when they first announced echo fighters and we thought we were getting a lot more of them than we ended up with, I suggested that the Ice Climbers could get an echo with the Hockey Players from NES Ice Hockey. And tbh I still think they'd be a cool NES rep.

I don't think Sora's more likely to be base than Cloud lol. Or likely to be base at all. I don't trust Disney not to bleed Nintendo's pockets dry for that. I imagine Sora more as permanent DLC bait tho lol, Nintendo ain't finna want him to go forever.

If only one Squeenix character is base, I'm sure it'll be Cloud. Sure ppl say he was hard to get for Ultimate... but they still got him lol. And I'm sure that DLC fed Square's pockets like a turkey dinner so I can't see them suddenly going more hardball. Especially if Nintendo promises more DLC from them in return. Fully ready for this to blow in my face but I think Cloud has a good future ahead of him.

Sometimes I wonder if SE only agreed to let Cloud into base Ult on the condition that they also got atleast one DLC character. I'm personally not that sure about cloud coming back, at least in base.

 

[osby]

What do you think the chances of Nahobino are? I think SMT5 did well. Didn't play it but I think he looks cool.

He'd be pretty cool.

I think for SMT, it kinda boils down to Demi-fiend vs Nahobino - with the former having long-standing popularity that even SMT V acknowledges in spades. However, Nahobino has the recency and sales on his side. Not to mention his game was kind of a (in)famous early reveal for Switch. Between the two, I'd say their chances are quite similar.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I am pro Excite Biker as well. A character that fights while riding a motorcycle it silly enough to appeal to me, and if you stick to his 8bit sprite proportions you could probably make grabbing onto ledges and stuff look fine. Plus the overheat meter from Excitebike would easily work as a character gimmick like other newer smash characters.
Though, back when they first announced echo fighters and we thought we were getting a lot more of them than we ended up with, I suggested that the Ice Climbers could get an echo with the Hockey Players from NES Ice Hockey. And tbh I still think they'd be a cool NES rep.

What I think would be cool is basing their moveset off of tricks that you can do on motorcycles.

This isn't one of them, but I think it would be hilarious if their forward aerial was them flipping off their bike and swinging it around them, effectively giving them a Cloud forward air, but a little slower.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

I remember looking into BMX stunts while doing some light Excitebiker moveset research and it's actually wild how many cool air tricks there are that can easily be mapped to aerials. The very nature of the character just invites tons of unique visual and animation stuff.

 

[Louie G.]

Okay, I guess I’m in the minority with this take as well. I don’t think a franchise has to be currently relevant to be deserving of a character in Smash.

I don’t think this is so much a hot take as it is the community playing it safe with expectations. I think a lot of older series and characters would make great additions to Smash, my most wanted is coming up on a decade of no games (Rhythm Heaven). But I feel like I also ought to be honest with myself about their chances and the precedent set by Smash thus far, where currently active series tend to get the nod and those that break this mold fall into a select couple categories.

Those categories are NES nostalgia and fanservice. If I had to guess, and it seems like some others agree with me, the next game will probably continue this trend. Excitebiker and Isaac feel like strong choices like Smash Puppy said. Outside of these bounds though, it doesn’t feel like there is much internal interest in pulling out random characters from 10-20 years ago which is somewhat disappointing. I wish Sakurai would give into his desires and add Saki or Lip, it’s clear he has an affinity for some of these characters but has refrained from giving them too much of a spotlight after their series has become dormant.

Maybe Sakurai believes that a more obscure or less relevant character ought to have a certain amount of fan backing to justify them being “worth” it, or to demonstrably be a very recognizable figure (hence the focus on NES nostalgia). We’ve heard him confirm this somewhat in his assessment of Takamaru. If this is the case I wish Sakurai would recognize the success of characters like Ness, Marth and even Shulk within Smash’s audience and not be so shy about it. It might be confusing for some at first but I want to say the majority of the audience enjoys learning about cool new characters.

 

[RileyXY1]

I definitely think Steve will be in the base game. The only way I can see him not making it is if programming his building and mining mechanics on all the new stages is too much work. He has a ton of pull with younger audiences in a roster mostly filled with older characters. Just imagine Steve on the box art of the next smash, it would sell billions .

Square Enix's characters seem to be the most at risk of licensing weirdness. Dragon Quest shouldn't be too difficult though. It's main hurdle was the old composer charging a fortune for the music, and he's dead now so that's out of the way. FF7's tracks are still very expensive, but I could see Nintendo being more willing to shell out the cash to get Cloud and Sephiroth in the base game with how huge of a reception Seph's reveal got.

I think most likely Steve will be DLC again due to how much work he is to implement, and I think Pokémon Trainer will be the same.

 

[SPEN18]

I saw some BMX stuff watching Paris 2024, couldn't help thinking of Excitebiker lol

 

[Sucumbio]

So I was watching someone play Spyro and the chat was all (including me) man this was my jam back in the day and then came a bunch of nostalgia and it got me thinking about nostalgia picks...

If Spyro is a good example of today's young adult gamers idea of a nostalgia character who else? Would they necessarily have to be from late 90s early 2000s? See for me that era is peak gaming for me lol and nostalgia would be more Prince of Persia, Sim City, or essentially a decade earlier late 80s early 90s...

 

[fogbadge]

I think most likely Steve will be DLC again due to how much work he is to implement, and I think Pokémon Trainer will be the same.

you think PT will be dlc?

So I was watching someone play Spyro and the chat was all (including me) man this was my jam back in the day and then came a bunch of nostalgia and it got me thinking about nostalgia picks...

If Spyro is a good example of today's young adult gamers idea of a nostalgia character who else? Would they necessarily have to be from late 90s early 2000s? See for me that era is peak gaming for me lol and nostalgia would be more Prince of Persia, Sim City, or essentially a decade earlier late 80s early 90s...

I think most people who are nostalgic for the 90s and 00s are in their 30s

 

[RileyXY1]

you think PT will be dlc?

I do unless they're using Ultimate as a base like how Ultimate used Smash 4 as a base.

 

[Gengar84]

So I was watching someone play Spyro and the chat was all (including me) man this was my jam back in the day and then came a bunch of nostalgia and it got me thinking about nostalgia picks...

If Spyro is a good example of today's young adult gamers idea of a nostalgia character who else? Would they necessarily have to be from late 90s early 2000s? See for me that era is peak gaming for me lol and nostalgia would be more Prince of Persia, Sim City, or essentially a decade earlier late 80s early 90s...

Half of my top 10 most wanted are essentially nostalgia picks from the 80’s and 90’s. Most have at least had some kind of game in the last 15 years but they were at their peak popularity back on the NES and SNES. Her’s just a few I’d qualify as nostalgia picks:

Magus (Chrono Trigger)
Rash/Pimple/Zitz (Battletoads)
Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
Zero (Mega Man X)
Bill Rizer/Lance Bean (Contra)

 

[Opossum]

I think most likely Steve will be DLC again due to how much work he is to implement, and I think Pokémon Trainer will be the same.

You have this COMPLETELY backwards.

The reason Steve was difficult to implement was because he was added later. The stages weren't designed with him in mind. Having him be base game would necessitate less work, because the stages would be built with him in mind.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If Spyro is a good example of today's young adult gamers idea of a nostalgia character who else? Would they necessarily have to be from late 90s early 2000s? See for me that era is peak gaming for me lol and nostalgia would be more Prince of Persia, Sim City, or essentially a decade earlier late 80s early 90s...

I'm pretty much as old as console gaming itself. Had an Atari 2600 as a wee one and progressed from there.

For me, the peak nostalgia era was the SNES.

 

[RileyXY1]

You have this COMPLETELY backwards.

The reason Steve was difficult to implement was because he was added later. The stages weren't designed with him in mind. Having him be base game would necessitate less work, because the stages would be built with him in mind.

He's still the most complex fighter in the game that took five years to add. I believe there's no way he will ever be in the base game unless he's a buggy mess at launch.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don’t think this is so much a hot take as it is the community playing it safe with expectations

I think there's playing it safe with expectations, and then there's acting like if something rarely happens, it never happens, even though some things that rarely happen still take up...more than 0 newcomer slots in each Smash game.

 

[Perkilator]

He's still the most complex fighter in the game that took five years to add. I believe there's no way he will ever be in the base game unless he's a buggy mess at launch.

He took five years because of negotiations, not because of his mechanic that the stages didn’t take into account because Steve was added later.

 

[Opossum]

He's still the most complex fighter in the game that took five years to add. I believe there's no way he will ever be in the base game unless he's a buggy mess at launch.

As was stated, this was the legal team being held up, not the development team. And now that the connection has already been established, it wouldn't take five years to get approval anymore.

So are there any further hold ups, or will you ignore this and just post this opinion again uncritically in a week or two?

 

[fogbadge]

I do unless they're using Ultimate as a base like how Ultimate used Smash 4 as a base.

and is there a reason behind it?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So are there any further hold ups, or will you ignore this and just post this opinion again uncritically in a week or two?

The opposite of what he claims tends to happen anyway so let him double down.

 

[DKing]

Shulk

The trailer of shulk is one my favorite trailer from smash 4 to this day(before DLC) specifically for the surprise effect , his accent and his play style.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I have peak nostalgia for N64, GameCube, and... Wii U for some reason? Playing Tropical Freeze and Breath of the Wild was magical.
I also have more nostalgia in general for my early/mid 20's than for my teenage years or even my childhood to be honest

 

[Guynamednelson]

The opposite of what he claims tends to happen anyway so let him double down.

Essential decor for any platform fighter dev's office

(Disclaimer: "Always" can have exceptions if always doing the opposite of what Riley says means the game has to spend decades in development to add thousands of playable characters)

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I don't think Sora's more likely to be base than Cloud lol. Or likely to be base at all. I don't trust Disney not to bleed Nintendo's pockets dry for that. I imagine Sora more as permanent DLC bait tho, Nintendo ain't finna want him to go forever.

If only one Squeenix character is base, I'm sure it'll be Cloud. Sure ppl say he was hard to get for Ultimate... but they still got him lol. And I'm sure that DLC fed Square's pockets like a turkey dinner so I can't see them suddenly going more hardball. Especially if Nintendo promises more DLC from them in return. Fully ready for this to blow in my face but I think Cloud got a good future ahead of him.

I think Sora is more likely to be base than Cloud just because he's literally the single most requested character of all time according to the Ballot, and cutting a character like that is a ROUGH call to make, especially when Sakurai knows every character has their fans. And even if Disney "bleeds them dry", they did it once and Ultimate's success as the highest selling fighting game ever made would presumably allow a pretty substantial budget, likely HIGHER than before. Plus if I recall correctly, wasn't Disney pretty open to the idea? I mean they hashed out the deal after Sakurai met a Disney exec at an awards show, with FP2 being for sale in early 2020, so I don't think negotiations could've possibly taken that long.

At the same time, I could see Cloud and Sephiroth being DLC because FF7 Remake is Square's giant multi-part game project currently spanning four years and counting.

I'm of the opinion that if Square wants in from the start we'll see Hero in base at least, and I feel like Sora will be there too from his sheer popularity.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think Sora is more likely to be base than Cloud just because he's literally the single most requested character of all time according to the Ballot, and cutting a character like that is a ROUGH call to make, especially when Sakurai knows every character has their fans. And even if Disney "bleeds them dry", they did it once and Ultimate's success as the highest selling fighting game ever made would presumably allow a pretty substantial budget, likely HIGHER than before. Plus if I recall correctly, wasn't Disney pretty open to the idea? I mean they hashed out the deal after Sakurai met a Disney exec at an awards show, with FP2 being for sale in early 2020, so I don't think negotiations could've possibly taken that long.

At the same time, I could see Cloud and Sephiroth being DLC because FF7 Remake is Square's giant multi-part currently spanning four years and counting.

I'm of the opinion that if Square wants in from the start we'll see Hero in base at least, and I feel like Sora will be there too from his sheer popularity.

I'm not sure we'll ever see any SE reps in the base game apart from them doing "Everyone is Here" again. SE really likes having their characters be DLC only in crossovers, and it's not just in Smash, as this was also the case for Noctis's appearance in Tekken 7 and 2B's appearance in Soul Calibur 6.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm not sure we'll ever see any SE reps in the base game apart from them doing "Everyone is Here" again. SE really likes having their characters be DLC only in crossovers, and it's not just in Smash, as this was also the case for Noctis's appearance in Tekken 7 and 2B's appearance in Soul Calibur 6.

Look, I do believe that Square Enix will be difficult to negotiate everyone back for, but why is Everyone is Here such a special scenario where Cloud or another SE character can't happen again? Will the budget for the Ultimate be that much higher than the budget for this new game... 35 million units later? Will negotiations look that much different, is there new leadership at Nintendo or Square Enix that would complicate this?

The answer is a rousing no. I won't deny the very real possibility of priorities being dealt elsewhere, and not wanting to go through this effort for every single returning third party character, but I would be pretty surprised if neither Cloud OR Hero are on the base roster. If they were able to accomplish this once there's no reason they couldn't do it again. Square Enix seems content playing along as long as there's something in it for them later. There's no shortage of DLC potential here whether it be new characters or old ones - that Cloud / Sephiroth bundle sounds pretty good with Hero available at launch.

I have to doubt Sora coming back for base roster though, since there's that pesky Disney factor at play. It seems like everyone was pretty excited to make this happen, but I do think it was remarkably easier knowing that through DLC there was more direct financial gain to be had. My prediction with Sora is if he doesn't make base roster, which I believe he won't, he will be added as one of the first returning DLC characters. If they don't feel comfortable simply selling him back on his own, maybe they'll sweeten the deal with a Roxas clone bundle or something.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Re: Crash Bandicoot

I remember when Cloud was first revealed, some people just would not stop talking about how he was in this game:

and not in this one

I expect the same thing to happen if Crash becomes a playable character in a Smash game. Maybe even worse since he was the actual mascot.

I used to hate it when people bring that up. It was bad enough that people kept bashing PlayStation All-Stars roster for not having characters that they didn't own, as if the roster wasn't good enough. Now they were using Smash 4's roster to take a shot at it too? Totally unnecessary!

But this time, I'm prepared for it and I have no problems with it. They can bring up Crash not being PlayStation All-Stars all they want because if they have no problem with Sonic being in this game:

and not in this one

then who cares? Fighters Megamix didn't have Sonic in it and fans still loved it. In fact, the roster wasn't even a problem. I mean, one of the characters was a car. lol

So yeah, I'm glad to finally put all that behind me. I won't have any problems at all if Crash gets in.