Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Doom has a ton of laser-based weapons, especially in the new games. The double-barrel shotgun is iconic, but aside from that you could make a moveset for Doom Slayer/Doom Guy without a single realistic firearm and you wouldn't miss all that much.
The chainsaw is a must though.

Chainsaw. Rocket Launcher. Shoulder Flamethrower. Super Shotgun w/ Meat Hook that fires out a Metal Slug-style shotgun blast. BFG for FS. Done. Throw in the Plasma Rifle if you need more.

The gun itself is realistic, but the shots are cartoony and you don't really see bullets.

I mean, that IS realistic. The human eye can't really see bullets in flight unless they're tracer rounds.

I personally think Doom Slayer does NOT fit Smash Bros and shouldn't be included.
Resident Evil i think it would be fine, i guess, but Doom Slayer It would be like including GTA into the game.

hides the Mii costumes

If DOOM Slayer ever gets in, it will be a hater of him, i really don't think he belongs in this game and i don't care how many times people try to bring up Bayonetta and Snake, imo those are way diferent than DOOM Slayer.

We'll try to contain our disappointment.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I personally think Doom Slayer does NOT fit Smash Bros and shouldn't be included.
Resident Evil i think it would be fine, i guess, but Doom Slayer It would be like including GTA into the game.

Then you must don't know anything about DOOM.

I do wonder how you’d accurately portray the Doom Slayer in Smash.

He’s from a sub genre of shooter where the guns all feel extremely powerful while the player character also has incredible speed and mobility. He doesn’t ever slow down to pepper enemies with shots from afar or fire from cover. You play DOOM by running around like a maniac, doing laps around an area and dizzyingly strafing around demons while you blast them into a fine paste, or going in for a comically brutal glory kill.

I like the 2016 game and Eternal a lot, but I’m not sure how you actually have the character in a fighting game without neutering him in some way.

I always think about how the FPS elements could work in a Smash Bros moveset. Fortunately, we haven't seen anything like that yet, so there's a lot of room for speculation.

In the case of Doom Slayer, I had the idea that of him being able to switch weapons (kind of similar to Hero's ability to switch powers but not as complicated). The weapons he switches would each have their own pros and cons. His running speed would be fast (I say as fast as Fox) but I'm not sure how having him shoot while he's running.

Overall, you just want to get the feel that you're playing a FPS character in Smash Bros and that would be a shooter-heavy character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

i can't believe that many smash fans want a brodude rep like DOOM here....

First Anime McSwordguy, then Scrimblo Bimblo, now Sgt. Shooty Brodude

 

[Ivander]

First Anime McSwordguy, then Scrimblo Bimblo, now Sgt. Shooty Brodude

Ah yes, my favorite Eidos character.

 

[Louie G.]

In the case of Doom Slayer, I had the idea that of him being able to switch weapons (kind of similar to Hero's ability to switch powers but not as complicated). The weapons he switches would each have their own pros and cons. His running speed would be fast (I say as fast as Fox) but I'm not sure how having him shoot while he's running.

Overall, you just want to get the feel that you're playing a FPS character in Smash Bros and that would be a shooter-heavy character.

You're right, although I can't help but feel like you lose something making Doomguy more of a zoner. It's such an active, in your face series and I'd be severely disappointed if he got in and people just found ways to camp out with him and not go for insanely stylish close quarters kills.

I do think having some kind of weapon switching mechanic makes sense for an FPS character on paper - and I think the closest we have to that right now would be Min-Min and her ARMS switching move. I just don't know if I'm convinced it should be his thing in particular - maybe that essence feels more suited to a PVP shooter character who has to be more patient and strategic. I guess my main concern is I don't want to give him any options to stay in one place, he should always be incentivized to move and be breaching the opponent's comfort zone. And I'm a bit worried that translating mechanics like swapping out guns and reloading might end up slowing him down, or rewarding campier play, unless they work out an efficient way to do it on the fly.

But yeah, really just depends on which angle you feel is more apt or important to represent in Smash. I think with Slayer, it's more important to capture that hot blooded energy from DOOM than it is to make him the FPS ambassador. As definitive as his series is to the genre, it really does continue to have such a bold identity of its own. I'm sure Sakurai would be capable of doing it justice either way.

Also personally, I envision him being fast but his speed being slightly dialed back to accommodate for his size and weight. Thinking more in the ballpark of Ridley or Charizard.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Does anyone have a link to Shorts' old poll?

 

[Perkilator]

From what I've seen of this thread, I think Doom Slayer could work as a glass cannon brawler/zoner hybrid.

 

[Gorgonzales]

This just came to my mind but if Steve returns they need to make his animations more readable. I'm glad how faithful they are, but it's hard to tell when he's in hitstun and impossible to tell if he's in tumble, which is just... bizarre. I don't know why they would prioritize references over gameplay clarity like this.

HDR fixes this by making him glow red during hitstun (similar to how he looks when he takes damage in Minecraft) and green during tumble (like he's poisoned). These solve the issues, and I'd appreciate if the Smash devs do something like this next time around. Another solution would be to have his tumble animation be him constantly rotating, which I think would be less gaudy than the green glow HDR uses.

 

[Wonder Smash]

You're right, although I can't help but feel like you lose something making Doomguy more of a zoner. It's such an active, in your face series and I'd be severely disappointed if he got in and people just found ways to camp out with him and not go for insanely stylish close quarters kills.

I do think having some kind of weapon switching mechanic makes sense for an FPS character on paper - and I think the closest we have to that right now would be Min-Min and her ARMS switching move. I just don't know if I'm convinced it should be his thing in particular - maybe that essence feels more suited to a PVP shooter character who has to be more patient and strategic. I guess my main concern is I don't want to give him any options to stay in one place, he should always be incentivized to move and be breaching the opponent's comfort zone. And I'm a bit worried that translating mechanics like swapping out guns and reloading might end up slowing him down, or rewarding campier play, unless they work out an efficient way to do it on the fly.

But yeah, really just depends on which angle you feel is more apt or important to represent in Smash. I think with Slayer, it's more important to capture that hot blooded energy from DOOM than it is to make him the FPS ambassador. As definitive as his series is to the genre, it really does continue to have such a bold identity of its own. I'm sure Sakurai would be capable of doing it justice either way.

Also personally, I envision him being fast but his speed being slightly dialed back to accommodate for his size and weight. Thinking more in the ballpark of Ridley or Charizard.

Well, they may not have to just camp out with him. I also had the idea of the weapons having limited ammo, each having a certain amount depending on which weapon it is. Then there's also the pros and cons that I mention earlier (people love using the Rocket Launcher but if you know DOOM, they'd keep their distances when using that for obvious reasons). This will also force players to be more strategic in their matches, which is very common in FPSs. And since he obviously don't have Glory Kills, another idea is to make his grabs powerful, as some sort of reference to them.

Shooting has always been Doom Slayer's primary way of attacking and I just think that should be shown more in his moveset.

If you want a way for him to shoot while running, I just think of Nathan Drake in PSASBR, where he actually is able to shoot while running back and forth. That could work for Doom Slayer in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

What Nintendo characters that aren't very requested would you want as an assist trophy?


. Demile (Tomato Adventure)
He would move around the stage and attack other fighters with his gimmicks, with the yo-yo one begin the most commonly used gimmick.

. Musashi (Sushi Striker: The way of sushido)
Musashi would stand there and several sushi plates will spawn over his head, playing the puzzle game of his game of origin automatically, when a row of sushi of the same type is aligned, Musashi will eat the sushi and throw the empty plates to the enemy.

. Aeron (Pandora's Tower)
Swings his sword, can also jump and attacks with his chain weapon as well, at the end releasing a very powerful attack that sends out flying the enemies caught on the radius .

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This just came to my mind but if Steve returns they need to make his animations more readable. I'm glad how faithful they are, but it's hard to tell when he's in hitstun and impossible to tell if he's in tumble, which is just... bizarre. I don't know why they would prioritize references over gameplay clarity like this.

HDR fixes this by making him glow red during hitstun (similar to how he looks when he takes damage in Minecraft) and green during tumble (like he's poisoned). These solve the issues, and I'd appreciate if the Smash devs do something like this next time around. Another solution would be to have his tumble animation be him constantly rotating, which I think would be less gaudy than the green glow HDR uses.

This is why I don't think being extremely faithful to a source material is a good thing on its own. You should be faithful to some degree, but animations should also be workable so they don't make the character unbalanced. If that includes some non-canon stuff? So be it.

But yeah, I do think he needs minor adjustments like that.

 

[fogbadge]

personally i just wouldn't find the doom chap all that interesting

 

[StrangeKitten]

This just came to my mind but if Steve returns they need to make his animations more readable. I'm glad how faithful they are, but it's hard to tell when he's in hitstun and impossible to tell if he's in tumble, which is just... bizarre. I don't know why they would prioritize references over gameplay clarity like this.

HDR fixes this by making him glow red during hitstun (similar to how he looks when he takes damage in Minecraft) and green during tumble (like he's poisoned). These solve the issues, and I'd appreciate if the Smash devs do something like this next time around. Another solution would be to have his tumble animation be him constantly rotating, which I think would be less gaudy than the green glow HDR uses.

This is probably why we're seeing so much backlash against reference-laden movesets as of late. Steve and Kazuya felt like they took it too far, and not in a good way.

 

[Gorgonzales]

This is probably why we're seeing so much backlash against reference-laden movesets as of late. Steve and Kazuya felt like they took it too far, and not in a good way.

I think Kazuya's concept of cramming Tekken's absurdly long move lists is translated pretty faithfully into Smash, actually. Using diagonals on the control stick and having crouch-involved moves is pretty cool, all the inputs are just more complex versions of Smash's base controls.

The issue with him is that, well... he's just overtuned to the point that it's almost comical. When they showed off that reflector kick, it kind of felt like they were just throwing everything and the kitchen sink into his kit at that point.

 

[AreJay25]

I think Kazuya's concept of cramming Tekken's absurdly long move lists is translated pretty faithfully into Smash, actually. Using diagonals on the control stick and having crouch-involved moves is pretty cool, all the inputs are just more complex versions of Smash's base controls.

The issue with him is that, well... he's just overtuned to the point that it's almost comical. When they showed off that reflector kick, it kind of felt like they were just throwing everything and the kitchen sink into his kit at that point.

I mean, don't forget that Sakurai more or less confirmed in that same exact presentation that Kazuya was getting his ass kicked during playtesting, and they pretty much had to give him intangibility on like 95% of his moveset just for him to keep up.

Which is hilarious considering intangibility, like, barely exists in Tekken.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Im glad Sora's reference filled moveset is actually good.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Kazuya overall is fine, it's just a lot to take in. It's not detrimental or heavily unbalanced either. While he's high tier, he's well behind someone like Steve, and it's not like with MegaMan where it does hurt quite a bit. And even then, MegaMan's around the mid tier and all as of Ultimate. And was a bit higher in Smash 4.

Having a flowing moveset is quite a bit more important. Some can get away with it while being chock full of references(Kazuya, Steve, even MegaMan), but not everyone can plausibly do this. Which is why many use made up moves.

 

[Deleted member]

Having a flowing moveset is quite a bit more important. Some can get away with it while being chock full of references(Kazuya, Steve, even MegaMan), but not everyone can plausibly do this. Which is why many use made up moves.

I wish people could understand that a flowing moveset is more important. We dont need every single move to be a reference if it makes the moveset of the character feel weird in Smash.
I actually like made up moves, as they can be pretty creative, honestly.

 

[SharkLord]

Doom Slayer would 100% be a more aggressive take because the games reward you more if you're up close and personal, iirc.

He'd have guns for ranged attacks but he'd be much better at point blank.

From what I can gather, the most iconic weapons are the Chainsaw (Melee), the Super Shotgun (Strong but short-range as far as guns go), and the BFG-9000 (Prime Final Smash material). If even the main gun works best at short range... Yeah, think that says a lot about the Slayer

 

[AreJay25]

From what I can gather, the most iconic weapons are the Chainsaw (Melee), the Super Shotgun (Strong but short-range as far as guns go), and the BFG-9000 (Prime Final Smash material). If even the main gun works best at short range... Yeah, think that says a lot about the Slayer

Fun fact! The chainsaw is actually considered the worst weapon in classic Doom. It's completely invalidated by the Berserk pack, which... lets you punch things to death. In fact, you can punch some things so hard they literally explode.

So yeah. It can't be expressed just how much the series encourages going in.

 

[SharkLord]

I do wonder how you’d accurately portray the Doom Slayer in Smash.

He’s from a sub genre of shooter where the guns all feel extremely powerful while the player character also has incredible speed and mobility. He doesn’t ever slow down to pepper enemies with shots from afar or fire from cover. You play DOOM by running around like a maniac, doing laps around an area and dizzyingly strafing around demons while you blast them into a fine paste, or going in for a comically brutal glory kill.

I like the 2016 game and Eternal a lot, but I’m not sure how you actually have the character in a fighting game without neutering him in some way.

I'd imagine he'd be a rushdown with guns; Powerful attacks that are mid-range at best. Like I said, most of his iconic weapons are short-range anyways. I'd see an ammo mechanic as being fairly easy to slot in, as a way to limit his strongest tools, and encourage him to throw out normals and throws to get his ammo back. It also means you have to be careful about using your kill moves, as if you whiff you lose some ammo.

Admittedly I haven't played Doom yet (somehow) but that's the impression I get from my research

 

[Guynamednelson]

Admittedly I haven't played Doom yet (somehow)

You won't even have to download the Shareware version anymore:

browser-doom.io

 

[HyperSomari64]

Yeah, I play Brash Smothers

Edit: Can SmashBoards run Doom?

 

[DarthEnderX]

From what I can gather, the most iconic weapons are the Chainsaw (Melee), the Super Shotgun (Strong but short-range as far as guns go), and the BFG-9000 (Prime Final Smash material).

The Doom Rocket Launcher is also pretty iconic.

The chainsaw is actually considered the worst weapon in classic Doom. It's completely invalidated by the Berserk pack, which... lets you punch things to death.

Except the Berserk Pack has a limited timer. So if you run out of ammo, the Chainsaw is still better than your basic fist.

 

[cashregister9]

The Doom Rocket Launcher is also pretty iconic.

Although in terms of Id Software Rocket Launchers, I would say Quake has the edge in being a bit more iconic.

Yes I do just want Rocket Jumping in Smash somehow

 

[Guynamednelson]

Except the Berserk Pack has a limited timer

Only the red screen effect does. Berserk buffs your fist until you exit a level...or several years pass before you do, but you're hopefully not going to stay on a Doom level for that long.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Yes I do just want Rocket Jumping in Smash somehow

And why do you not ask for TF2 Soldier?

 

[SharkLord]

This is probably why we're seeing so much backlash against reference-laden movesets as of late. Steve and Kazuya felt like they took it too far, and not in a good way.

I am... Extremely mixed on those types of movesets. On one hand, I think it's really cool and creative, seeing them translate the movesets to Smash with different control scheme, and I think they play pretty coherently. On the other hand, when they have entirely different inputs compared to the usual Smash formula, they stick out like a sore thumb. Steve I'm fine with, since he plays pretty fluidly for me and doesn't have any unique inputs beyond the Shield Special, which could honestly be used a lot more. My main point of contention comes from the fighting game characters; Not because I can't handle a quarter circle, but it just sticks out so much compared to everyone else

You won't even have to download the Shareware version anymore:

browser-doom.io

Oh yeah no, Doom is friggin Doom. Anyone can play it, I just have to get my lazy butt up to play the damn thing

 

[Sucumbio]

IDKFA

 

[Gorgonzales]

And why do you not ask for TF2 Soldier?

I'd rather have Heavy, but Soldier would probably be tied with Scout for my runner-up pick.

Lucas watching as Soldier rocket jumps from one end of the stage to the other at mach 2 to cave in his skull with the funny shovel:

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

FPS discourse is weird. It seems to boil down to:

1. They'd be a projectile zoner, so I don't want them, and will claim they don't fit in Super Smash Bros. for this reason.
2. I think Doom is too intense for Super Smash Bros., so they can't be in.
3. Dudebro???

The first thing is silly because like...projectile zoners exist. We've got about 19 different takes on the idea. Now, they're generally considered the most annoying archetype, so it's fair to not want to have to deal with more of them, but that doesn't mean that they (and other characters that would have this play style) don't fit in Super Smash Bros.

The second is less silly, because we can't break the game's tone. It's why we have werewolves back-flipping into oblivion. But as far as brutality goes, we've got stuff like King K. Rool dragging you across the ground, Snake putting you to sleep with chloroform, and Ridley getting a special, very visceral feeling freeze framed stab. The Doom Slayer doesn't need to punch a hole in Kirby's skull for his attacks to feel brutal. All he needs are some powerful animations and good damage and K.O. power to match.

The third is...wat?

This just came to my mind but if Steve returns they need to make his animations more readable. I'm glad how faithful they are, but it's hard to tell when he's in hitstun and impossible to tell if he's in tumble, which is just... bizarre. I don't know why they would prioritize references over gameplay clarity like this.

HDR fixes this by making him glow red during hitstun (similar to how he looks when he takes damage in Minecraft) and green during tumble (like he's poisoned). These solve the issues, and I'd appreciate if the Smash devs do something like this next time around. Another solution would be to have his tumble animation be him constantly rotating, which I think would be less gaudy than the green glow HDR uses.

This isn't something they can do easily, but I would give him MLG bucket as his tumble animation. He looks down, his "inventory" appears over him, scrolls to the bucket super fast, and for the rest of the animation Steve holds the bucket. Then his tech animations would use the water bucket to break his fall. If he doesn't teck, he failed to use the bucket in time and falls over.

Kazuya overall is fine, it's just a lot to take in. It's not detrimental or heavily unbalanced either.

As far as I know it's really just Electric Wind God Fist being overtuned that's the problem, as it gives him a safe neutral tool that gives 0->deaths on hit. If you were to make it more situational and/or lessened what he got from it he wouldn't piss people off so much.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

FPS discourse is weird. It seems to boil down to:

1. They'd be a projectile zoner, so I don't want them, and will claim they don't fit in Super Smash Bros. for this reason.
2. I think Doom is too intense for Super Smash Bros., so they can't be in.
3. Dudebro???

The first thing is silly because like...projectile zoners exist. We've got about 19 different takes on the idea. Now, they're generally considered the most annoying archetype, so it's fair to not want to have to deal with more of them, but that doesn't mean that they (and other characters that would have this play style) don't fit in Super Smash Bros.

The second is less silly, because we can't break the game's tone. It's why we have werewolves back-flipping into oblivion. But as far as brutality goes, we've got stuff like King K. Rool dragging you across the ground, Snake putting you to sleep with chloroform, and Ridley getting a special, very visceral feeling freeze framed stab. The Doom Slayer doesn't need to punch a hole in Kirby's skull for his attacks to feel brutal. All he needs are some powerful animations and good damage and K.O. power to match.

The third is...wat?

And all three of these points come from the same user too. Usually, discourse feels far more spread out.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And all three of these points come from the same user too. Usually, discourse feels far more spread out.

To be clear, this isn't really supposed to be a jab at TheQuester specifically. Back when the Doom Slayer was discussed a lot more frequently, the second argument happened a lot. The first argument I've mostly only seen from MockRock, but I doubt he's the only one with this opinion. The third one I've only seen from TheQuester, but has been said to be weirdly prevalent.

And I do kinda understand the dudebro thing about Jonsey since if you don't like dudebro characters, his design isn't going to appeal to you (though whether or not he's actually a dudebro I have no idea). Doom Slayer and Master Chief though? One's a force of nature character and the other is a highly disciplined soldier. I don't get the connection here. Is it just the shooter equivalent of scrimblo bimblo and anime swordfighter?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

This is probably why we're seeing so much backlash against reference-laden movesets as of late. Steve and Kazuya felt like they took it too far, and not in a good way.

I feel like a somewhat understated part of the whole reference heavy moveset thing is also the Rivals of Aether workshop. Making custom Smash characters is more accessible than ever, and with hundreds of workshop characters, it's easier for people into this stuff in the first place to see what works and what doesn't.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Is it just the shooter equivalent of scrimblo bimblo and anime swordfighter?

Seems like it.

I was hoping it'd be more creative than just dudebro because like... that just gives me the vibe of "any douchebag ever" rather than specifically FPS.

How about we call them Rambos instead?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

My opinion on Doom content in Smash is as follows:

Doomslayer gets added (no Quake content) - Lame uninspired cashgrab that completely breaks the tone of Smash. Boring dudebro shill pick for people who don't care about the gameplay anyways. Smash died after Melee, and Sakurai is the one who buried it.

Doomslayer gets added (has Quake content) - Iconic hype legacy pick of one of gaming's most genre-defining series with a surprising yet strong history with Nintendo, fitting seemlessly into Smash's star-studded roster and bringing an innovative new moveset into the eclectic mix of playstyles the series is known for. Genius Sakurai does it again.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'd honestly be surprised if they could somehow get some Quake music in Smash:

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Seems like it.

I was hoping it'd be more creative than just dudebro because like... that just gives me the vibe of "any douchebag ever" rather than specifically FPS.

How about we call them Rambos instead?

Rambo is pretty good, but consider: Shooty McShootface


Also, about what I said about Scrimblo potentially coming from Tumblr, it would be wild if this happened with other terms. Like, can you imagine if people started calling villains "little meow meows"?

"Smash needs more little meow meows."
"They shouldn't add characters just because they're a little meow meow."

My opinion on Doom content in Smash is as follows:

Doomslayer gets added (no Quake content) - Lame uninspired cashgrab that completely breaks the tone of Smash. Boring dudebro shill pick for people who don't care about the gameplay anyways. Smash died after Melee, and Sakurai is the one who buried it.

Doomslayer gets added (has Quake content) - Iconic hype legacy pick of one of gaming's most genre-defining series with a surprising yet strong history with Nintendo, fitting seemlessly into Smash's star-studded roster and bringing an innovative new moveset into the eclectic mix of playstyles the series is known for. Genius Sakurai does it again.

Is Quake a part of the Doom series? I thought it was a spiritual successor kinda deal.

 

[Guynamednelson]

How about we call them Rambos instead?

Rambo is pretty good, but consider: Shooty McShootface

A name I like from a random Twitter post is "Captain Greengun", because both of the FPS characters we tend to focus on wear green armor.

Is Quake a part of the Doom series? I thought it was a spiritual successor kinda deal.

It is a spiritual successor, but in the multiplayer-focused Quakes, Doomguy is playable.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Rambo is pretty good, but consider: Shooty McShootface


Also, about what I said about Scrimblo potentially coming from Tumblr, it would be wild if this happened with other terms. Like, can you imagine if people started calling villains "little meow meows"?

"Smash needs more little meow meows."
"They shouldn't add characters just because they're a little meow meow."

Raven Beak the little meow meow

That sentence is ****ing sending me

A name I like from a random Twitter post is "Captain Greengun", because both of the FPS characters we tend to focus on wear green armor.

Oh, I like that. We could go Captain McGun for FPS protags that don't wear green too.