Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

I don't mind movesets having variety and a bit of complexity, but I should not need to learn and know about parallel universes in order to be over 50%, but under 75% good at a character.

 

[Garteam]

I understand why most aren't enthused over the idea of reworks but after 25+ years of being mostly the same, I'd welcome a shake up for Smash personally.

Everyone is always concerned about losing a particular move or a character's game plan changing but that's just the nature of it when implementing any changes even if you're strictly adjusting values over actual move changes.

Street Fighter 6 I think actually presents a really good example. Ryu is still Ryu but he's got some new tools to work with. Everyone got some changes but also outright additions to make them feel fresh. Something like that is what I'd like to see for Smash. I still expect Mario to have all his N64 moves but having a handful of new tools (and replacing FLUDD) could go a long way imo.

And yes, there lies the question of where you'd even put any new tools, but I think they should do just that; make room for them.

There was a time before Side Specials and Up/Down Throw after all.

Maybe using Zair for more than just tethers could be a start?

The practical difference between Melee adding side specials and up/down throws and a new Smash adding a new, universal tool like, say, an air grab is the scale of work that would need to be done to implement each change. Melee only had to update 12 characters to add new moves, the next Smash would need to update 40+ characters to give a new tool even half of Ultimate's roster. That's at least one full new character in terms of hitboxes, hurtboxes, and animations and even that would mean that a massive chunk of Ultimate's cast wouldn't be able to return for the base game.

Kneecapping the roster like this in the interest of having gameplay options for hardcore fans is getting dangerously close to "These characters are just functions" territory. It doesn't have the same element of being influenced by corporate politics, but it does repeat the same neglect for casual audiences that are primarily tied to the series for its characters rather than gameplay that we saw in MvCI. "Mario can now do this new thing" is of little solace to players who lose their favourite characters and now have to find a new one, especially if the number of characters is notably thinner relative to Ultimate.

I can understand the appeal of reworks in the abstract, but it's one of those things that comes with too much baggage at a large scale to be practicable.

 

[SPEN18]

Conversation around moveset changes so often tends to focus solely on what could be lost rather than also on what could be gained. You can't say "people might not like it" without also saying "people might like it." Especially if these changes aren't just random and on a whim but rather targeted towards specific issues people have expressed with certain characters, maybe we should be more inclined towards the positive end than the negative.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Conversation around moveset changes so often tends to focus solely on what could be lost rather than also on what could be gained. You can't say "people might not like it" without also saying "people might like it." Especially if these changes aren't just random and on a whim but rather targeted towards specific issues people have expressed with certain characters, maybe we should be more inclined towards the positive end than the negative.

Hell, people aren't exactly going to main the same character in every game anyway. Even when the changes are more subtle, someone might just like a newcomer or how another veteran feels in the new game better.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I understand why most aren't enthused over the idea of reworks but after 25+ years of being mostly the same, I'd welcome a shake up for Smash personally.

For me, the Newcomers ARE the shake-up.

I’m okay with moveset complexity as long as the characters are still simple enough to pick up and play at a base level. So far, most of the characters have done this for me.

Steve and Hero do not pass this check for me.

 

[Garteam]

Conversation around moveset changes so often tends to focus solely on what could be lost rather than also on what could be gained. You can't say "people might not like it" without also saying "people might like it." Especially if these changes aren't just random and on a whim but rather targeted towards specific issues people have expressed with certain characters, maybe we should be more inclined towards the positive end than the negative.

The conversation trends this way because what would be lost are often things that affect virtually all of Smash's players, such as the number of selectable characters and which veterans return, while what would be gained often only matters to a vocal minority, such as making certain characters more accurate to their source material and enhancing high-end, competitive play.

 

[Louie G.]

To refine a character idea that wasn't working in some way

I wonder which characters currently in Smash this could be argued for. We all have our own feelings about what's working and what isn't, but I'm trying to factor in general gameplay depth or lack thereof, which characters are especially dominant right now, which ones are the least played or have the worst results.

Sonic comes to mind. His obtrusive, stally nature has reached somewhat of an apex with Ultimate and it's decidedly not a fun thing to play against at all. I think this is something that's inevitably going to need attention, which is good because most of us can agree Sonic needs a refresher no matter what. Certainly helps that Frontiers came out, the series has been shifting gears and seeing a different identity than he would have when he was added in Ultimate, I think there's a strong case for a reassessment.

Steve and Kazuya are characters I'd argue are overtuned currently, but that will come down less to a moveset overhaul and more to a simple rebalancing job.

Olimar and Lucario are characters I can think of with comparably small playerbases whose mechanics are a little out of date by now and have been done way better by other characters. I hope they'll be reassessed because in my opinion these aren't really working anymore. Olimar's resource management is completely mindless and Lucario just feels painfully undercooked. The former also has a new game in their series so maybe this will put eyes back on Pikmin for revisiting, there are some really obvious and intuitive ways to work around this including making Pikmin more of a limited resource.

I'd mention characters like Little Mac or Ganondorf, where something clearly "isn't working" in respect to their individual viability (in other words, they suck), but they're very popular characters on a casual level and just as well are quite capable in free for alls. I hope there's still an effort made to improving them in the opposite scenario, especially Little Mac who should probably be designed specially with 1v1 in mind if anything. He'll probably continue to be rebalanced instead of wholly reworked, meanwhile Ganondorf is up in the air whether or not they start pulling from his most recent appearance at all.

 

[Perkilator]

To me, some characters should get a rework because their design as is is fundamentally flawed. 20+ years of moveset retention is what’s kept Ganondorf confined to bottom tier for three games in a row.

 

[Gengar84]

For me, the Newcomers ARE the shake-up.

Steve and Hero do not pass this check for me.

Hero’s fine for me other than his down special. Everything else is pretty standard. I don’t really mind having one wacky move if the character is simple enough otherwise.

 

[AreJay25]

I wonder which characters currently in Smash this could be argued for. We all have our own feelings about what's working and what isn't, but I'm trying to factor in general gameplay depth or lack thereof, which characters are especially dominant right now, which ones are the least played or have the worst results.

Sonic comes to mind. His obtrusive, stally nature has reached somewhat of an apex with Ultimate and it's decidedly not a fun thing to play against at all. I think this is something that's inevitably going to need attention, which is good because most of us can agree Sonic needs a refresher no matter what. Certainly helps that Frontiers came out, the series has been shifting gears and seeing a different identity than he would have when he was added in Ultimate, I think there's a strong case for a reassessment.

Steve and Kazuya are characters I'd argue are overtuned currently, but that will come down less to a moveset overhaul and more to a simple rebalancing job.

Olimar and Lucario are characters I can think of with comparably small playerbases whose mechanics are a little out of date by now and have been done way better by other characters. I hope they'll be reassessed because in my opinion these aren't really working anymore. Olimar's resource management is completely mindless and Lucario just feels painfully undercooked. The former also has a new game in their series so maybe this will put eyes back on Pikmin for revisiting, there are some really obvious and intuitive ways to work around this including making Pikmin more of a limited resource.

I'd mention characters like Little Mac or Ganondorf, where something clearly "isn't working" in respect to their individual viability (in other words, they suck), but they're very popular characters on a casual level and just as well are quite capable in free for alls. I hope there's still an effort made to improving them in the opposite scenario, especially Little Mac who should probably be designed specially with 1v1 in mind if anything. He'll probably continue to be rebalanced instead of wholly reworked, meanwhile Ganondorf is up in the air whether or not they start pulling from his most recent appearance at all.

Tbh I'm glad you brought up Olimar specifically.

I've never really liked his implementation. Resource management is definitely a criticism I agree with, and I don't know how controversial of a complaint this might be, but... I just REALLY hate his animations. I've been looking at this character since Brawl and I STILL have trouble discerning what half of his moves actually are. So many of his key moves look the exact same and it makes fighting him an annoyingly confusing experience, especially considering how rare it is to actually play against him in the first place.

It's especially jarring in a game like Ultimate where animations were touched up across the board, meanwhile he's over here still maintaining the same readability issues (which was really fun to deal with when he was a top 5 character at the beginning of the game!). He's 100% coming back in Smash 6 so I'm genuinely hoping this is something they update.

 

[SPEN18]

The conversation trends this way because what would be lost are often things that affect virtually all of Smash's players, such as the number of selectable characters and which veterans return, while what would be gained often only matters to a vocal minority, such as making certain characters more accurate to their source material and enhancing high-end, competitive play.

How Sonic, Samus, Ganondorf et al. play and the extent to which they are consistent with their source materials affect everyone, too? We're not talking about miniscule adjustments that are only going to be noticed by competitive players. And it is not just competitive players talking about this stuff. I know some people tend to frame it that way and moveset reworks certainly appeal to plenty of folks in that vein, but that is not the only audience this would be directed towards.

In fact, I do agree that any work put into moveset changes has to be balanced against its cost, just like anything else. And there is a certain point where I would agree it is cutting too much into the roster; however, I think we can give everyone a tune-up and focus some more major changes on those in most dire need of them without getting to that breaking point.

In any case, setting maximum vet retention as the #1 priority is simply a losing battle at this particular juncture. This isn't EiH where having one less vet blows the whole marketing scheme out of the water. The raw number of characters can't be the sole consideration.

 

[Sucumbio]

Steve... I've started watching streams of Minecraft and his representation in Smash seems accurate but as if some crowd control rewarded him a bunch of cheats and his controls suck.

 

[Perkilator]

To me, some characters should get a rework because their design as is is fundamentally flawed. 20+ years of moveset retention is what’s kept Ganondorf confined to bottom tier for three games in a row.

On a similar note, any other veterans you guys want reworked for similar reasons?

 

[Louie G.]

On a similar note, any other veterans you guys want reworked for similar reasons?

Mostly just Samus, as far as the long standing "20 years of moveset retention" point goes.

It's been understandable for her to play roughly the same all this time because the 2D series has not provided much reference for two decades. After MercurySteam's games though, 2D Metroid's identity has evolved and her movement / combat style has grown with it. I'm hoping for at least like, Smash 4 Bowser tier changes. Her general essence and her specials ought to probably stay the same but working her into more of an all-rounder would be refreshing.

Granted I understand why Samus has been the way she's been for so long. She is THE zoner in Smash and her floatiness and lesser physical options reflect that. I think we can be flexible with this now though, since Smash is really at no loss for zoners otherwise. Obviously her projectiles and normals would need to be rebalanced accordingly but she's certainly a high priority character with notable series growth who can justify those changes.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

You can't make Samus move as fast as she does in Dread while still having Charge Shot. That's a recipe for disaster.

By the way I really don't get what's wrong with Samus. She's simple to pick up but her kit has a lot of nuisance, as of Ultimate she's finally competitive and all her iconic moves are in. You can change a couple moves here and there, sure, make dtilt the Dread slide and usmash the counter, whatever, but the character is well designed.
She can't be as powerful as end of game Dread (or even Super tbh) Samus in a game where she's not the only playable character in any case.

Ganondorf and Sonic feel like beating a dead horse to me at this point. It's not worth it (and not even necessary) to cut half the roster just to shake up those two characters in particular.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I don't mind the Rabbids as eventual Newcomers anymore. Their movesets is there. Their time travel gimmick is the most appealing thing about them.

I'd argue the most appealing thing about the Rabbids is how over-the-top ridiculous/insane they are. I don't think people see a Rabbid and have "time travel!" be the first thing that pops up in their head.

On a similar note, any other veterans you guys want reworked for similar reasons?

OLIMAR.
He's woefully lacking in his character, and his resource management aspect is far behind what other modern Smash characters have. He feels like a very superficial interpretation of what a Pikmin character should be in a platform fighter. He deserves better.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Ganondorf and Sonic feel like beating a dead horse to me at this point. It's not worth it (and not even necessary) to cut half the roster just to shake up those two characters in particular.

All Sonic needs is to have his speed toned down (he can still be the fastest, just shorten the gap so other people can keep up), have a side or down special that isn't just ball again and maybe some balancing tweaks so that he isn't just rewarded all the time for avoiding interactions.

Nothing about Sonic requires a full rework that starts from scratch.


As for Ganondorf... honestly, TotK is giving the Smash devs a good excuse to keep him unchanged while still feeling very Ganondorf-like.
It's almost as if him not pulling out his strongest stuff because of his ego has now become a core character trait and weakness of the character.

 

[AreJay25]

On a similar note, any other veterans you guys want reworked for similar reasons?

Kirby and Sonic.

I understand that Kirby is supposed to be a pick up and play character, but like... I don't particularly find him to be super fun to play in his current state. His specials more or less feel useless at this point and his gameplan has basically become "just use tilts lol". He can just feel so limited. I'm not saying he needs to drift too far away from his general design philosophy, but he can certainly be spiced up without having to sacrifice his ease of use.

Sonic is pretty self-explanatory lmao. Again, understandable why he's the way he currently is, considering he was a last minute addition to Brawl, but that game came out in 2008. The fact that his moveset has barely changed since then, especially when he has so many things to pull from for an updated kit, is bewildering to me. Seriously... why does he STILL have two Spin Dashes? (Yes they have different properties but most people aren't going to realize what they actually are.) Not to mention how toxic his gameplan can boil down to when played competitively, and I say this as someone who co-mained him in Smash 4. I know he's a prime example of a character people want redesigned, but it really can't be understated just how much he could benefit from it.

 

[Louie G.]

Ganondorf and Sonic feel like beating a dead horse to me at this point. It's not worth it (and not even necessary) to cut half the roster just to shake up those two characters in particular.

I don't think Sonic is necessarily a dead horse at this stage where he's become a genuine menace in the game capable of stalling matches. Some kind of change is entirely necessary, it's become less about character accuracy and more about the health of the game.

Mind you I don't think we're getting something as extreme as people would like, nor do I think we even need that really (balance is the most important thing here), but between his current role in the game and the fact that Sonic has kind of regained its footing as a franchise I think the conversation of "fixing" and/or reworking Sonic is more justified now than it was in the last two titles. He's just a character that they can no longer afford to make an afterthought.

 

[AreJay25]

On another note. I think Yoshi is completely fine and doesn't really need much changing.

Except for this.

This move is trash lmao. Yoshi could just not have a Side B entirely and he'd immediately improve.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On another note. I think Yoshi is completely fine and doesn't really need much changing.

Except for this.

This move is trash lmao. Yoshi could just not have a Side B entirely and he'd immediately improve.

Honestly, it'd be fine if the hitbox wasn't half the size of the hurtbox.

There's more work needed but like, that's a core aspect of the move that will never allow it to function no matter how buffed it is.

 

[ninjahmos]

I don't think giving almost the entire roster reworks would be practical.

I mean, just think about how much time and resources (and money) that would cost.

 

[Schnee117]

Smash's issue is it's a painfully stagnant series. Brawl was the last major shift with it being severely slowed down and floatier in response to people daring to play Melee in a competitive format and we've been gradually and slowly moving into an in-between of the two. But we've been stuck with a stagnant game with stagnant characters for a while now. And sure, if it ain't broke don't fix it, we don't need an overhaul on Fox or Captain Falcon (just balance him so he doesn't suck, it can be done) or Inkling among numerous others. But there's cases where it's warranted. Just on a smaller scale you can adjust Robin a bit, maybe swap Fludd out on Mario (this isn't wholly necessary but it does get mentioned enough to be something to consider) and consider doing a bit more to diversify the Links.

I find it's being vastly overstated how much the bigger changes would actually eat into the roster size and veteran count and understated how much people would actually like these changes (under the general assumption that they're actually done well and aren't half-hearted and half-assed which isn't something that needs to be stated but alas) however. People want an actual Ganondorf, people want Samus to be flashier, people want Sonic to be more exciting in general and Frontiers is the perfect opportunity to add that element, people want Little Mac to not be bottom tier trash, people want Lucario to not be painfully outdated and boring. If this eats into the veteran count then lets be perfectly honest with what's getting cut into here. You're not inherently cutting into characters like Mewtwo or Falco or Meta Knight. You're cutting into the likes of Plant, Pichu and Corrin. Character reworks would be decided on from the start and we know they try to bring back as many characters as possible, it'd be the less popular characters that fall in priority and even then, we know they can do veteran DLC anyway. It's not that big of an issue if a popular big character falls behind during development and has to be added post-launch, hell the devs have twice given us a limited time free character that you later have to pay for, they could do it for someone that falls into that pitfall.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Hero’s fine for me other than his down special. Everything else is pretty standard. I don’t really mind having one wacky move if the character is simple enough otherwise.

A character that loses access to it's basic recovery abilities if it does too many Special attacks is not "simple enough to pick up and play at a base level".

"Wait, why can't I Up+B? All I did was throw some fireballs."

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I don't think Sonic is necessarily a dead horse at this stage where he's become a genuine menace in the game capable of stalling matches. Some kind of change is entirely necessary, it's become less about character accuracy and more about the health of the game.

Mind you I don't think we're getting something as extreme as people would like, nor do I think we even need that really (balance is the most important thing here), but between his current role in the game and the fact that Sonic has kind of regained its footing as a franchise I think the conversation of "fixing" and/or reworking Sonic is more justified now than it was in the last two titles. He's just a character that they can no longer afford to make an afterthought.

Sonic just needs to get hit with the good ol' nerf hammer imo. Make him punishable for starters. Then tone down the most janky stuff: Spring's height, fsmash range, iframes here and there, make Homing Attack reactable online and make side B not just eat through projectiles.

I don't believe he's ever been an afterthought though. His down and side specials being similar is clearly intentional, and he's as janky as he Is probably because of casual play. As a not particularly heavy character with no projectiles and weird combos you can't punish little Timmy too much for just trying to spin around the stage while playing as Sonic.
For characters with such a long history as his, they usually base them around a single game and then fill in the gaps with stuff from different entries. Samus is mostly Super, Megaman is mostly Megaman 2, Ryu Street Fighter II, etc. And Sonic is mostly based on the Genesis games, at least in terms of gameplay. I think it's a fine approach.

Anyways, realistically, they're going to change one special move and a couple of normals at most. He's Sonic, he's always going to be the fastest character in the game and to have Spin dash and Homing Attack, and there's nothing inherently problematic about his normal attacks.
So... Yeah I don't see what kind of rework he'd warrant that would make sacrificing a bunch of the roster worth it.

 

[Gengar84]

A character that loses access to it's basic recovery abilities if it does too many Special attacks is not "simple enough to pick up and play at a base level".

"Wait, why can't I Up+B? All I did was throw some fireballs."

Fair enough. I forgot that his up special couldn’t be used without MP. I think that’s an easy enough fix though: If you use the move with no MP, you’d still get the aerial momentum to use a recovery but it wouldn’t create the damaging whirlwind effect.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Fair enough. I forgot that his up special couldn’t be used without MP. I think that’s an easy enough fix though: If you use the move with no MP, you’d still get the aerial momentum to use a recovery but it wouldn’t create the damaging whirlwind effect.

I'd still rather they just...got rid of the MP and gave him normal-ass moves. Like Cloud and Sephiroth.

 

[Gengar84]

I'd still rather they just...got rid of the MP and gave him normal-ass moves. Like Cloud and Sephiroth.

That would work too. I think the MP system is a fun touch but I can understand the argument that it makes him needlessly complicated to play. Kind of like Robin’s tomes. I had a pretty similar concept in mind for my Sarah Kerrigan movesets where she basically uses an amp equivalent (Vespian gas) to summon various Zerg units.

 

[ScrubReborn]

On another note. I think Yoshi is completely fine and doesn't really need much changing.

Except for this.

This move is trash lmao. Yoshi could just not have a Side B entirely and he'd immediately improve.

That and they gotta let him eat items/projectiles with neutral B like Wario and Kirby can because 5 generations of Smash later, Yoshi still can't.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Personally I think some of the reworks people suggest aren't good ideas. There are veterans that need changes, but I dunno if say, removing FLUDD is a good idea. The move does it's intended purpose fine and it works. It's fun to use in casual and competitive settings and it's a clear reference to a popular game. I'd argue it even teaches new players about windboxes.

We should be focusing on moves that don't work or are mostly just filler.

Think of things like Jigglypuff's Rollout. It has no real place in Jigglypuff's design as an air focused character, it doesn't see much use in general and unlike Sing, it's not super important to the character.

There are some characters that need an overhaul like Ganondorf or Sonic, but I think characters like Olimar or Lucario could just use some new animations while keeping the core moveset the same. Someone like Little Mac just needs rebalancing and tweaking.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I don't mind movesets having variety and a bit of complexity, but I should not need to learn and know about parallel universes in order to be over 50%, but under 75% good at a character.

Maybe I play Smash too much but, to which character(s) would this even apply? I'm blanking on who would require this.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Idea. We remove Jigglypuff's Rollout.

We make Sing her new Neutral B.

We give her a new Up Special move.

Thoughts?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Idea. We remove Jigglypuff's Rollout.

We make Sing her new Neutral B.

We give her a new Up Special move.

Thoughts?

Up B is Rollout except it goes up.

 

[smashkirby]

On a similar note, any other veterans you guys want reworked for similar reasons?

GOD, Kirby AT LEAST needs his run speed AND air speed buffed.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In Strive's case, every veteran was simplified. I wouldn't exactly signal out Jack-O for this.

That was more to just have one example rather than just saying "all of them", though I ended up doing that with Street Fighter 6 anyway...Even so, I don't think all of them were refined because they weren't working so much as they wanted the game to be more approachable. For a second example from Guilty Gear Strive, I'd point to Bedman since a lot of his kit just didn't work from what I remember.

I wonder which characters currently in Smash this could be argued for. We all have our own feelings about what's working and what isn't, but I'm trying to factor in general gameplay depth or lack thereof, which characters are especially dominant right now, which ones are the least played or have the worst results.

Sonic comes to mind. His obtrusive, stally nature has reached somewhat of an apex with Ultimate and it's decidedly not a fun thing to play against at all. I think this is something that's inevitably going to need attention, which is good because most of us can agree Sonic needs a refresher no matter what. Certainly helps that Frontiers came out, the series has been shifting gears and seeing a different identity than he would have when he was added in Ultimate, I think there's a strong case for a reassessment.

Steve and Kazuya are characters I'd argue are overtuned currently, but that will come down less to a moveset overhaul and more to a simple rebalancing job.

Olimar and Lucario are characters I can think of with comparably small playerbases whose mechanics are a little out of date by now and have been done way better by other characters. I hope they'll be reassessed because in my opinion these aren't really working anymore. Olimar's resource management is completely mindless and Lucario just feels painfully undercooked. The former also has a new game in their series so maybe this will put eyes back on Pikmin for revisiting, there are some really obvious and intuitive ways to work around this including making Pikmin more of a limited resource.

I'd mention characters like Little Mac or Ganondorf, where something clearly "isn't working" in respect to their individual viability (in other words, they suck), but they're very popular characters on a casual level and just as well are quite capable in free for alls. I hope there's still an effort made to improving them in the opposite scenario, especially Little Mac who should probably be designed specially with 1v1 in mind if anything. He'll probably continue to be rebalanced instead of wholly reworked, meanwhile Ganondorf is up in the air whether or not they start pulling from his most recent appearance at all.

Off the top of my head, Zelda, Little Mac, and King Dedede need maybe not necessarily an entirely new move set kinda rework, but definitely some extra attention paid to their overall design. Hero needs some fixes to how Command Selection works to make it less awkward to use.

By the way I really don't get what's wrong with Samus. She's simple to pick up but her kit has a lot of nuisance, as of Ultimate she's finally competitive and all her iconic moves are in. You can change a couple moves here and there, sure, make dtilt the Dread slide and usmash the counter, whatever, but the character is well designed.
She can't be as powerful as end of game Dread (or even Super tbh) Samus in a game where she's not the only playable character in any case.

A lot of people hate her physical attacks, which is a tad strange, but she also falls into the camp of "basically all of their moves would work entirely differently if they were made today".

 

[ninjahmos]

I still think Light Speed Dash would be a better Side B for Sonic, while keeping his Spin Dash as his Down B.

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t play him much but I could never figure out the use case of Sonic’s side special compared to his down special. I think the side special has a little hop at the end that I’m guessing can lead to combos but I never know when it’s better to use what move since they’re so similar visually. I keep expecting both to function similarly to Jigglypuff’s neutral special but they’re each different in their own ways.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Idea. We remove Jigglypuff's Rollout.

We make Sing her new Neutral B.

We give her a new Up Special move.

Thoughts?

My idea is wilder; keep Sing as the Up B and make Disarming Voice a new Neutral B.

It can work as a projectile which can force people in rough situation since they can either jump above it or shield, but Puff is great in the air and has Pound. So it would effectively allow her to condition the opponent, which is far more useful than anything Rollout did.

And even if it's not good for Puff's game plan for balancing reasons (like having bad frame data), it's still a projectile so it's still an improvement over Rollout.

As a bonus, it's also a Fairy-type move, referencing Puff gaining that type (as well as that specific move) in Gen 6.

 

[smashkirby]

Totally unrelated, but I was watching some gameplay of Kirby's Dream Buffet and I noticed something very interesting about the Waddle Dees in that game. Granted, Kirby was subjected to this too, so it's not wholly a Waddle Dee-exclusive feature, but I thought it worth discussing.

In the game, if Kirby or Waddle Dee ends up off the track and seems like they're about to fall off of it, they can fly back to the track, though their flight is limited. Yes, I said "THEIR". Apparently, Waddle Dees in that game have Kirby's capability for flight, though seems to be more of an imitation, if nothing else.

All of this being said, it made me think of something...

If Bandana Waddle Dee did end up in Smash, would you all be alright with him having what's essentially an incredibly poor imitation of Kirby's (and King Dedede's, I suppose) flight, where he's essentially flapping his arms wildly and cartoonishly to avoid falling, or should he just be the one Kirby character with two jumps like most of the rest of the cast?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Totally unrelated, but I was watching some gameplay of Kirby's Dream Buffet and I noticed something very interesting about the Waddle Dees in that game. Granted, Kirby was subjected to this too, so it's not wholly a Waddle Dee-exclusive feature, but I thought it worth discussing.

In the game, if Kirby or Waddle Dee ends up off the track and seems like they're about to fall off of it, they can fly back to the track, though their flight is limited. Yes, I said "THEIR". Apparently, Waddle Dees in that game have Kirby's capability for flight, though seems to be more of an imitation, if nothing else.

All of this being said, it made me think of something...

If Bandana Waddle Dee did end up in Smash, would you all be alright with him having what's essentially an incredibly poor imitation of Kirby's (and King Dedede's, I suppose) flight, where he's essentially flapping his arms wildly and cartoonishly to avoid falling, or should he just be the one Kirby character with two jumps like most of the rest of the cast?

Every Kirby character that people speculate about for Smash has the power of flight. It comes free with being playable.