Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Garteam]

I know "live service" is a dirty word, but I honestly wouldn't mind if the next Smash structured its development to support long-term DLC plans. Smash is one of the few series and Nintendo is one of the few publishers I trust to not use this model as an excuse to have a lackluster base game and nickel and dime the player into fixing the game.

I honestly wouldn't mind monthly DLC character releases. 6 veterans and 6 newcomers, each alternating every other month? It could be fun. This model would also be a reasonably sustainable way to do DLC at this scale, as the veterans would be using work done in Ultimate as a base.

 

[Pupp135]

Since we’re discussing cuts, I’ve sometimes thought about the Mario Kart series in terms of cuts as DS and 7 had many cuts (at least half of Double Dash and Wii were cut going to DS and 7 respectively, and 7 cut Waluigi), and they were still some of best selling games from their respective consoles (7 was the best selling according to Wikipedia). The situations between SSB6 and the Mario Kart games are different as the Mario Kart ones were exclusively handheld releases, and they are racing games instead of fighting games, but I think SSB6 will be similar where SSB6 will still sell well despite the potentially high number of cuts because of the series’s popularity.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I think they could do a fighter pass for newcomers and a fighter pass for veterans. The fighter pass for veterans would be cheaper as some characters would not come with extra music or stages, for example characters like Piranha Plant, Bowser Jr, Incineroar if return as DLC, they would come alone, but characters like MinMin if return as DLC could return with her stage and music.

"Newcomer Pass 1" and "Veteran Pass 1"....etc.

Or just do what every other fighting game does and do season passes with both.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Since we’re discussing cuts, I’ve sometimes thought about the Mario Kart series in terms of cuts as DS and 7 had many cuts (at least half of Double Dash and Wii were cut going to DS and 7 respectively, and 7 cut Waluigi), and they were still some of best selling games from their respective consoles (7 was the best selling according to Wikipedia). The situations between SSB6 and the Mario Kart games are different as the Mario Kart ones were exclusively handheld releases, and they are racing games instead of fighting games, but I think SSB6 will be similar where SSB6 will still sell well despite the potentially high number of cuts because of the series’s popularity.

Though it should be noted that there was a big backlash at Waluigi being cut. They still sold well, but it was made quite clear he's a Mario Kart staple and his absence was a bad idea.

You can apply that to Smash fairly easily, yeah. Many characters will be kept, with some cuts causing a ruckus(Mewtwo did not go over well. At least it was planned for Brawl).

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Not sure how hot of a take this is, but I'd rather straight up purchase DLC veterans if they had the modern sensibilities to actually update them in new and exciting ways as is the trend with most modern fighters instead of just being the simplest possible forward port like Smash is wont to do.

There's a reason the most hyped up character trailer in EVO Japan was Akuma, a man who's had a perfect attendance in every Street Fighter for 30 years straight. Because he was not only done justice each time but constantly exceeds expectations as well.


I guarantee if Smash did crazy **** like this for someone like Ganondorf, it would more than justify a full-price DLC newcomer pricetag.

I never thought about it, but this really shows how Smash operates nothing like traditional fighting games. For better or worse. Even when a character gets a major rework it largely gets shrugged off (see Zelda in Ultimate).
I guess it's due to its fighting/party game hybrid nature, and also to the characters having fewer moves, it's basically just four specials, three slow-but-strong finishers and a bunch of less flashy utility moves.

 

[Ivander]

Though it should be noted that their was a big backlash at Waluigi being cut. They still sold well, but it was made quite clear he's a Mario Kart staple and his absence was a bad idea.

The real reason why Waluigi hasn't made an official WarioWare appearance is that Wario still hasn't forgotten about Mario Tennis Power Tour. Last thing Wario wants is Waluigi appearing in a new WarioWare game and then suddenly, Wario goes missing next game while Waluigi remains.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Unless the development time gets cut short or they're unable to meet the deadline with certain planned characters, I don't see any veterans being held off as DLC.

It's more likely that any cut veterans will return later on if they either couldn't complete development of them in time for the game's initial release date (and technically speaking, does that case even truly make them cuts to begin with?) or if fan demand is high enough, and even then, we have no idea how the next game is going to be handled yet so it might take another character poll for such a thing to happen. And there's no guarantee that they'll put out another poll or another ballot again, either.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

View attachment 388635
The real reason why Waluigi hasn't made an official WarioWare appearance is that Wario still hasn't forgotten about Mario Tennis Power Tour. Last thing Wario wants is Waluigi appearing in a new WarioWare game and then suddenly, Wario goes missing next game while Waluigi remains.

That would be a good take for a WarioWare story.

Wario goes missing and Waluigi takes over for the company. People suspect he had something to do with his disappearance but it turns out Wario got his ass stuck in the toilet seat or something and he shows up at the end for the "final" round of microgames.

 

[HyperSomari64]

That would be a good take for a WarioWare story.

Wario goes missing and Waluigi takes over for the company. People suspect he had something to do with his disappearance but it turns out Wario got his ass stuck in the toilet seat or something and he shows up at the end for the "final" round of microgames.

The true final boss will be an anthropomorphic **** that came from Wario's butt. Or is the Great Mighty Poo or a poop version of Wario
Nah, let's keep with your idea.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

That would be a good take for a WarioWare story.

Wario goes missing and Waluigi takes over for the company. People suspect he had something to do with his disappearance but it turns out Wario got his ass stuck in the toilet seat or something and he shows up at the end for the "final" round of microgames.

The set-up is perfect for the gameplay of a new game in the series because WaluigiWare would be infinitely more chaotic than WarioWare already is.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Unless the development time gets cut short or they're unable to meet the deadline with certain planned characters, I don't see any veterans being held off as DLC.

It's more likely that any cut veterans will return later on if they either couldn't complete development of them in time for the game's initial release date (and technically speaking, does that case even truly make them cuts to begin with?) or if fan demand is high enough, and even then, we have no idea how the next game is going to be handled yet so it might take another character poll for such a thing to happen. And there's no guarantee that they'll put out another poll or another ballot again, either.

Brawl and Ultimate do go with a philosophy of "everyone in base game is fully decided upon. Nobody was cut to be turned into DLC".

4 is a unique case where we did get a last minute addition like 64 and Melee, but only because they were Costumes designed for the characters. If they weren't, we wouldn't have them. 64 and Melee just outright added Model Swap Fighters(of which most were clone types. Ness is really the only one who barely resembles his base, with Falcon leaning towards that a bit). We also have lots of rumors like "Ness or Lucas will be cut and one would be DLC", but we actually knew that nobody was planned for DLC but Mewtwo according to Sakurai. While it's clear at some point Ryu and Lucas were added to the DLC plans, it would've had to be while Mewtwo was further in development than the 50 Smash Facts. Otherwise, it contradicts the timing outright made clear.

Anyway, being the model is generally "don't cut a character just to make them DLC", it's pretty safe to assume nobody would just be randomly pushed to DLC. Development being impossible because Sakurai can't get a timeline extension absolutely can exist though, but it's probably going to be very very rare, especially as it only actually happened with Mewtwo. And that was, as noted, a very special case. Others who are cut can't have the "old data" excuse either. The most likely thing to happen is some Sakurai just doesn't see plausible within the time period and cuts them. Likewise, since DLC will come up later in development(it's never from the start), he would reevaluate some characters, and potentially add a few back for DLC. This more matches with the model in general.

(Also, we don't exactly know if Mewtwo was hard planned for base or something he considered but knew it wasn't plausible. It may have been planned outright for DLC quite fast when it was greenlit. It's absolutely possible it was moved from base to DLC due to circumstances, though. It's also possible that it was dismissed due to being too difficult, and both when DLC and the last minute additions came up, got reevaluated and ultimately was doable. Just not possible for base. This last one does fairly fit with how Sakurai prefers to do it, but that doesn't mean it actually happened that way. Overall, we only know Brawl and Ultimate's specific Base Game exactly, and Ultimate's DLC Game exactly. 4's is a bit more... kept secret).

 

[CommanderZaktan]

That would be a good take for a WarioWare story.

Wario goes missing and Waluigi takes over for the company. People suspect he had something to do with his disappearance but it turns out Wario got his ass stuck in the toilet seat or something and he shows up at the end for the "final" round of microgames.

I have a better idea. Wario couldn't pay the bills for his company and it's planned to be demolished by the Wrecking Crew. Luckily, Waluigi offers him a second chance to pay in few days so they won't destroy the company's building since they're friends.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Pokémon and Kirby microgames aside, I want to see a Wario Heart Surgeon microgame,.
Where the doctors gets his heart hair off (referencing the WarioWorld manual)
I'm not kidding

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I have a better idea. Wario couldn't pay the bills for his company and it's planned to be demolished by the Wrecking Crew. Luckily, Waluigi offers him a second chance to pay in few days so they won't destroy the company's building since they're friends.

I mean, the original idea was that Wario was nowhere to be found and instead Waluigi was there to play off what Ivander said.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Pokémon and Kirby microgames aside, I want to see a Wario Heart Surgeon microgame,.
Where the doctors gets his heart hair off (referencing the WarioWorld manual)
I'm not kidding

Man, Surgeon Simulator's new DLC is looking weird.

 

[HyperSomari64]

And let's not forget Wario's Brain Cockroach.
It is his pet?

 

[Deleted member]

Though it should be noted that there was a big backlash at Waluigi being cut. They still sold well, but it was made quite clear he's a Mario Kart staple and his absence was a bad idea.

You can apply that to Smash fairly easily, yeah. Many characters will be kept, with some cuts causing a ruckus(Mewtwo did not go over well. At least it was planned for Brawl).

I'm not someone to be bothered with cuts and Waluigi was no diferent, i can find another character i like to play as easily. But Waluigi cut in MK7 even made me WTF? It's like if they just randomly cut Captain Falcon in Smash 6 but kept Piranha Plant.
I still say that Waluigi begin cut in MK7 has to be one of the most bizarre decisions i've ever seen....the top 1 spot is probably the entirety of Balan Wonderworld's gameplay, though lol, but probably top 2.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not someone to be bothered with cuts and Waluigi was no diferent, i can find another character i like to play as easily. But Waluigi cut in MK7 even made me WTF? It's like if they just randomly cut Captain Falcon in Smash 6 but kept Piranha Plant.
I still say that Waluigi begin cut in MK7 has to be one of the most bizarre decisions i've ever seen....the top 1 spot is probably the entirety of Balan Wonderworld's gameplay, though lol, but probably top 2.

Exactly. Well, can't judge the gameplay on that game, but anyway, it's like removing Falcon or Sheik. Two major popular mainstays. Relevance isn't the only thing that matters, after all(in the context of Smash. Mario Kart is seemingly random in cuts, but there's for sure some reason for the decisions).

 

[Shinuto]

I’ll admit I’m partially guilty of that myself. I love Nintendo and it’s my favorite gaming company but the large majority of my most wanted characters at this point are third party. There are still plenty of first party characters I’d be excited for but many of them aren’t particularly likely.

Some of my top ones that have a somewhat realistic chance are:

Gengar (or another Pokemon I really like)
Impa (Hyrule Warriors version)
Dixie Kong
Medusa
Officer Howard
Jena Anderson
Nia
Noah/Mio (Ouroboros fusion)
Goomba
King Boo
The Black Knight (or another FE character I really like)

Nia ftw let me ask you, do you actually think Nia is realistic and why?

 

[Gengar84]

Nia ftw let me ask you, do you actually think Nia is realistic and why?

I don’t think she’s as likely as Noah/Mio but she seems to be very popular and has a prominent role in both Xenoblade 2 and 3. She’s also my personal favorite character in the series (not that that point at all affects likelihood). I think if we were going to get a character beyond a main protagonist, she’s at the top of the list.

All that said, I do have to stretch “realistic” a bit. I don’t think the characters I listed are necessarily the most likely overall, just among the characters I’d be most excited to see. Jena Anderson, for example, only really has a chance if we get two Astral Chain characters and that probably depends on if there’s a sequel in the works.

 

[Shinuto]

I don’t think she’s as likely as Noah/Mio but she seems to be very popular and has a prominent role in both Xenoblade 2 and 3. She’s also my personal favorite character in the series (not that that point at all affects likelihood). I think if we were going to get a character beyond a main protagonist, she’s at the top of the list.

All that said, I do have to stretch “realistic” a bit. I don’t think the characters I listed are necessarily the most likely overall, just among the characters I’d be most excited to see. Jena Anderson, for example, only really has a chance if we get two Astral Chain characters and that probably depends on if there’s a sequel in the works.

Im the same way with Nia, she's one of my favorite fictional characters period an my top favorite Xenoblade character. She's my number 2 behind Shantae for Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

Im the same way with Nia, she's one of my favorite fictional characters period an my top favorite Xenoblade character. She's my number 2 behind Shantae for Smash.

Oh yeah, definitely. Nia’s a great character and she has such a fun personality. Characters like Nia are why I wish Smash wasn’t so strict with its “main protagonists first” rule. Some of the most interesting characters in games are the supporting characters.

 

[Shinuto]

Oh yeah, definitely. Nia’s a great character and she has such a fun personality. Characters like Nia are why I wish Smash wasn’t so strict with its “main protagonists first” rule. Some of the most interesting characters in games are the supporting characters.

She'd be so fun to play either her driver twin rings style or her scimitar style. or both as a stance change character.

 

[Gengar84]

She'd be so fun to play either her driver twin rings style or her scimitar style. or both as a stance change character.

There’s also the possibility of incorporating Dromarch into her moveset if they go with her Xenoblade 2 character. We don’t really have an animal rider in Smash yet and she’d be a fun option. I’d be happy whatever set they want to go with, it would just be cool to play as her at all in Smash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Wait... so I'm NOT alone in thinking this way?? Thank goodness!

For the longest while, I've been thinking about how F.E. will be handled in regards to its characters, and it's kind of bummed me out how so many seem to have Roy AND Chrom on the chopping block, despite their popularity in AND out of Smash. I guess it's partially bias on my part, as I definitely prefer them to Marth and Lucina if I'm being honest here.

With all of that being said, I'll admit that in Chrom's case? Him sticking around is partially because I REALLY do want him to stay and partially because... well, after all of the rather mean-spirited jokes made at his expense over missing out on Smash 4, I feel like he deserves to stick around for future games.

I suppose it's not completely unprecedented since Dr. Mario was cut due to time constraints in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, but Echo Fighters are pretty closely tied to their base fighter so it's hard not to see them as the same character in that regard. Even after thinking about it, I'd find it odd to see either one without the other (unless the first one added was a DLC character).

I still believe a double game launch would be a great strategy if we're talking about Nintendo's profit margins.

Like Pokemon does only where that's a blatant zero-effort cash grab this one would be substantial.

There'd be a base game and an expansion both fully priced. The base game would include mostly Nintendo stuff but some third parties like Sonic, Megaman, Pacman, Banjo maybe even the likes of Knuckles, Tails and Bomberman would also be included. Cutesy fun third-parties that fit in better with Nintendo's line up. Any veteran missing from this base game will be replaced by a newcomer. You have to buy the base game in order to unlock the ability to purchase the expansion pack.

Then you have the expansion pack which would include any veteran missing from the base game first and third parties alike. This pack would also include Nintendo deep cuts like Isaac, Mach Rider and Donkey Kong Jr. This would help supplement the gains in the roster by getting the expansion pack and thus sweeten the deal because the expansion pack would have a similar amount of content but less overall than the base game acting more as access to the full experience rather than a separate game in and of itself.

I wish this was the way they'd do it actually because Nintendo would probably would give Sakurai and team a insane amount of resources/budget if the idea was to make Smash a 140$ game with a planned DLC cycle. That's the most likely avenue to retaining Everyone is Here while also heavily expanding upon Smash's gameplay/modes without sacrificing a modicum the quality. I could see them also making it 120$ in a bundled price but 70$ individually. If this were the release model then it'd probably have to be a rare exemption from Nintendo's voucher program as well in order to make all of this justifiable from the company's financial standpoint.

Some noteworthy "problems" with this model besides it be unprecedented for Smash specifically (but not Nintendo themselves since they already do this with Pokemon) is it'd basically invite pay to win accusations from people disgruntled about the pricing. These accusations really don't matter but these misgivings would definitely be used as a launch pad for some easy bad press by a press that's always desperately eager to milk any online buzz for engagement. In my humble opinion it'd mostly just be something you'd have to ride out. The game would eventually go on sale and that'd be that.

The final problem would be the physical release. I don't think there would be a physical version of the full package would be released on a single cartridge. Nintendo is super stingy about cartridge sizes and this game would be massive and there's also the risk of secondhand sales cheapening the value of the full package. I think it'd be a situation where the base game was on the cartridge and a digital code for the expansion pack in the box. This would piss off "preservationists" (tots) and also come with some bad press. Again though I think it's just something you ride out. Simply even having a DLC cycle kind of already ****s over people that want the full game post-DLC support as we've seen with both Smash 4 and Ultimate at this point so it's just more of the same.

This sounds less like a Pokémon business model and more like a Street Fighter one. They could release an expansion titles "Super Smash Bros. Next Gen: Ultimate Edition" or something, but that business model does tend to piss people off so I dunno if they should.

I never thought about it, but this really shows how Smash operates nothing like traditional fighting games. For better or worse. Even when a character gets a major rework it largely gets shrugged off (see Zelda in Ultimate).
I guess it's due to its fighting/party game hybrid nature, and also to the characters having fewer moves, it's basically just four specials, three slow-but-strong finishers and a bunch of less flashy utility moves.

Zelda's visual redesign was actually received very positively. Gameplay wise though, she wasn't reworked. Like, at all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The funny thing is, Zelda got some overall significant buffs and has her best tier placement overall in Smash Ultimate than her entire Smash history. It's not great(D- Tier) by any means, but it wasn't a "rework" that did it, just outright buffs. She suffered a few bits overall, but some of that was due the game engine changes.

In Melee, she's only slightly better than Bowser and Kirby. In Brawl, she's barely better than Ganondorf. Same in 4, but with Jigglypuff worse than her(with the Mii Fighters unranked. Ganondorf is better than her in 4 of all things). Meanwhile, Ultimate has a marginal boost where she has a plethora of characters under her in terms of placement. While everyone is actually viable even then(compared to other games), and she's still not good, they clearly did a good job buffing her. With 82 spots(this is due to some Echoes as well as the only two Transformation characters sharing a respective slot), Zelda is at 73. She's not at the near bottom this time, though close.

She absolutely needs more, no doubt, but a "rework" isn't what's going to be key in itself. Very few actually got outright reworks either. It's not a normal thing. Nor does it actually show improvement by default. Pit got a rework to a degree into 4... and dropped a lot in the tiers. Bowser got one, yet rose heavily. Mewtwo was remade, and also rose. On the other hand, Roy barely changed his overall positioning going into 4 while still getting a bit of a rework. It's best to say that it's clear buffs in general play a bit more of a role than just a rework alone. Besides that, keep in mind Ganondorf was in a better tier in 4 but got buffed in Ultimate overall but went down tiers(despite better viability). There's not enough clear things that tell us just "reworking" in general is that important compared to buffs. Both can work just fine. I mean, both Zelda and Ganondorf still seeing overall improvements without actual reworks is a good sign. Whereas Pit dropping hard because of a rework shows quite clearly that it's not the best way to inherently do it. It is truly variable. Oh, right, Mewtwo dropped hard in Ultimate compared to its placement in 4. There's more to it than trying to rework characters. It can be detrimental since it breaks their playstyle too, which is far harsher than just "seeming like it would help".

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm not an expert on Zelda, so I could be wrong, but my impression of Zelda is that she was designed to be a character that makes opponents afraid of her stage control, and capitalizes on that fear with her very precise, but dummy strong hitboxes. The problem is that she can't actually do that because she doesn't have any good setup zoning tools*, and because she can't set up, her payoff attacks become straight up garbage.

*Phantom seems to act like a regular zoning tool, but with a bit of protection for Zelda while charging. This might just be because it needs other tools for it to be effective in setting things up, like if Duck Hunt lacked Trick Shot and had to almost entirely rely on Wild Gunman for neutral interactions.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Or maybe veterans could be added back in free updates while newcomers get proper Challenger Packs?

I could see that happening with 1st Party veterans, but not 3rd Party.

There are still plenty of first party characters I’d be excited for but many of them aren’t particularly likely.

The only 1P characters I really want to see as Fighters are King Hippo and Captain Toad/Toadette.

All the other 1P characters I want, I want to be either Echoes, or Bosses.

Roy, Mewtwo, and Lucas cost $3.99, Corrin cost $4.99, and Bayonetta, Cloud, and Ryu cost $5.99. The latter group also came with their own stages which likely pushed their pricing up a dollar vs. Corrin.

Or the extra dollar was the 3P licensee cut.

That's not how it works. Fighting games make you pay for veterans and newcomers in the same pass.

Smash isn't other fighting games.

How many other fighting games do EiH? Or entire DLC seasons of nothing but newcomers?

I honestly wouldn't mind monthly DLC character releases. 6 veterans and 6 newcomers, each alternating every other month? It could be fun.

I think the best way to release characters like that is to have each update add one newcomer and one veteran. So you don't have "dud" updates where all you're getting is an old character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The funny thing is, Zelda got some overall significant buffs and has her best tier placement overall in Smash Ultimate than her entire Smash history. It's not great(D- Tier) by any means, but it wasn't a "rework" that did it, just outright buffs. She suffered a few bits overall, but some of that was due the game engine changes.

In Melee, she's only slightly better than Bowser and Kirby. In Brawl, she's barely better than Ganondorf. Same in 4, but with Jigglypuff worse than her(with the Mii Fighters unranked. Ganondorf is better than her in 4 of all things). Meanwhile, Ultimate has a marginal boost where she has a plethora of characters under her in terms of placement. While everyone is actually viable even then(compared to other games), and she's still not good, they clearly did a good job buffing her. With 82 spots(this is due to some Echoes as well as the only two Transformation characters sharing a respective slot), Zelda is at 73. She's not at the near bottom this time, though close.

She absolutely needs more, no doubt, but a "rework" isn't what's going to be key in itself. Very few actually got outright reworks either. It's not a normal thing. Nor does it actually show improvement by default. Pit got a rework to a degree into 4... and dropped a lot in the tiers. Bowser got one, yet rose heavily. Mewtwo was remade, and also rose. On the other hand, Roy barely changed his overall positioning going into 4 while still getting a bit of a rework. It's best to say that it's clear buffs in general play a bit more of a role than just a rework alone. Besides that, keep in mind Ganondorf was in a better tier in 4 but got buffed in Ultimate overall but went down tiers(despite better viability). There's not enough clear things that tell us just "reworking" in general is that important compared to buffs. Both can work just fine. I mean, both Zelda and Ganondorf still seeing overall improvements without actual reworks is a good sign. Whereas Pit dropping hard because of a rework shows quite clearly that it's not the best way to inherently do it. It is truly variable. Oh, right, Mewtwo dropped hard in Ultimate compared to its placement in 4. There's more to it than trying to rework characters. It can be detrimental since it breaks their playstyle too, which is far harsher than just "seeming like it would help".

Thinking about it, I think that unless you want to get rid of a knife's edge balancing act, or your game is so different from the previous game that a character's quirky mechanic would probably break it, balance isn't really a reason to redesign a character. Instead, it's one of three things:

1. To refine a character idea that wasn't working in some way (Jack-O from Guilty Gear Strive)
   1. Jack-O's initial gimmick was that she set up houses that summoned minions to fight for her and leveled up over time. IIRC this wasn't super strong since it was fairly easy to stop, but if the player successfully carried out their game plan, it lead to nasty checkmate situations that didn't feel fair, thus making her pretty aggressively disliked. Guilty Gear Strive instead has her pull out her minions directly, and gives her direct control over them, simplifying the playstyle by removing the level up mechanic, and making it feel like she earns her wins more.
2. To update a character based on a more recent appearance (Jill from Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom)
   1. This really only applies to crossover games, and Jill is definitely an example of this going wrong. In the case of Jill, it just wasn't an incarnation of the character...well technically at all since she's possessed, but certainly not one that fans would want to see over her usual appearance.
3. To breathe new life into a character design, making them seem fresh and new. (A lot of Street Fighter 6's characters)
   1. Technically Street Fighter 6 didn't fully redesign most of its veterans, but most of them got new mechanics, or old mechanics from Street Fighter 5 integrated into their moveset for this reason. For an example of a more major redesign, I want to say Dee Jay, though I don't remember how he worked in previous games.

Like you said, Super Smash Bros. really doesn't tend to rework its characters, but I do think we have an example of each reasoning. First there's Roy, who was given a rush down moveset since it was identified that his hitbox mechanics are anti-thetical to a traditional swordfighter, and it was also kind of where the idea for his design was in the first place. It wasn't good in SSB4 because landing lag made his approach super linear, and I could see him plummet in the tier list if he's added to another game with universally high landing lag. Then there's Pit, who's a lot better for it in terms of appeal (though that's a bit subjective), he's not quite as strong as he used to be. He is a pretty balanced character in terms of playstyle though, so I think Pit's current problems are just that he's a bit under-tuned. Lastly, there's Mewtwo. IIRC his biggest changes were a powerful new forward aerial, and the fact that all his special moves work as intended now. Mewtwo's power level seems to be directly tied to wether or not they put a hurtbox on his tail, so I guess the redesign itself was successful, but there's one design decision that changes a whole lot about how it functions, and the devs aren't sure how to handle it.

As for the point of my ramblings...I'm not sure there is one, but I had fun thinking about it.

 

[Garteam]

To be honest, character reworks as a major selling point of the next Smash always feels like a Smash fan designing what a follow-up to Ultimate would look like rather than Sakurai designing what a follow-up to Ultimate would look like.

A lot of casual fans probably wouldn't care about a substantial character rework unless they are a major fan of that franchise who is very intimate with the character in their source material. They likely haven't played and/or thought enough about how these characters are depicted to develop strong opinions, so an advertised rework would likely be read as "Yeah, but I can play them in Ultimate and they were fine there".

It's also worth noting that casual fans who play the characters as they were originally designed may be turned off by losing tools they were attached to or needing to learn an entirely new character. One of my best friends plays Little Mac because he never wanted to learn how to jump in Smash and would rather run around in free-for-alls spamming smash attacks through the chaos. To him, a reworked Little Mac that is more aerially focused would destroy both his main and his favourite way to play Smash. A lot of people claiming Little Mac's gimmick is unworkable also don't seem to realize that Little Mac presently isn't even a great ground fighter and his current design framework has never met its full potential in Ultimate, but that's neither here nor there.

It's kind of like a toy box. People would generally prefer to receive new toys instead of replacements for old toys they have unless their current toys are non-functional. None of the characters in Smash are non-functional presently, including Little Mac, Ganondorf, Sonic, and the like. That's not to say reworks don't have a place, but they should be done cautiously so as not to piss off the character's pre-existing fanbase and they definitely shouldn't be done as an excuse not to have new characters.

Other fighting games can get away with using veteran reworks for a character because the average player of Street Fighter, Tekken, Guilty Gear, etc. is a lot more invested in playing the game at the highest level possible than the average Smash player.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

A lot of people claiming Little Mac's gimmick is unworkable also don't seem to realize that Little Mac presently isn't even a great ground fighter and his current design framework has never met its full potential in Ultimate, but that's neither here nor there.

Honestly hard agreed on that.

Giving him a decent grab game, even if it's not very boxer-like, would go a long way to make his ground game scary.

Other fighting games can get away with using veteran reworks for a character because the average player of Street Fighter, Tekken, Guilty Gear, etc. is a lot more invested in playing the game at the highest level possible than the average Smash player.

It's also much easier to give new tricks to a character from those games since unlike in Smash, their movesets aren't restricted.

If you want to give a Smash character a new special, you have to remove an existing one.
For any other fighting game, you can just... add it and keep everything else because the motion inputs and different attack buttons allow for each character to have more specials than they have normals.

Smash's restrictive move lists (unless you're a third-party character, I guess :V) combined with Sakurai's fear of alienating fanbases makes the series a place where reworks aren't gonna happen all that often. If ever.

The closest thing to major rework I can think of was Pit's and even then, it was just three of his specials and two of them had a similar enough purpose that Pit players from Brawl could still realistically use their knowledge from that game into the Smash 4 versions (Side B is still a move where Pit moves forward and can reflect projectiles, Down B is still a reflective shield, except the two were majorly buffed to do their job better and have new options). The only outright new move in his "rework" was Up B.

I guess Luigi would be another example, but it took him getting small changes across several games for him to eventually stick out as something completely different than what he was in Smash 64. Nowhere near the pace people expect when asking for character reworks.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Lastly, there's Mewtwo. IIRC his biggest changes were a powerful new forward aerial, and the fact that all his special moves work as intended now. Mewtwo's power level seems to be directly tied to wether or not they put a hurtbox on his tail, so I guess the redesign itself was successful, but there's one design decision that changes a whole lot about how it functions, and the devs aren't sure how to handle it.

As for the point of my ramblings...I'm not sure there is one, but I had fun thinking about it.

Mewtwo also had a very good airdodge that made him disappear in Smash 4. It's still useful in Ultimate, but with dodge staling now being a thing and how laggy directional air dodges are, obviously much less so. His down tilt in 4 was a combo starter with excellent range, and combo'd into most anything. His nair was also better for combos iirc. So, tail hurtbox plays a part, but isn't the entire reason he was a much stronger character in 4.

 

[Guynamednelson]

To refine a character idea that wasn't working in some way (Jack-O from Guilty Gear Strive)

1. Jack-O's initial gimmick was that she set up houses that summoned minions to fight for her and leveled up over time. IIRC this wasn't super strong since it was fairly easy to stop, but if the player successfully carried out their game plan, it lead to nasty checkmate situations that didn't feel fair, thus making her pretty aggressively disliked. Guilty Gear Strive instead has her pull out her minions directly, and gives her direct control over them, simplifying the playstyle by removing the level up mechanic, and making it feel like she earns her wins more.

In Strive's case, every veteran was simplified. I wouldn't exactly signal out Jack-O for this.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

In Strive's case, every veteran was simplified. I wouldn't exactly signal out Jack-O for this.

Sol losing the Dragon Install is such a weird change...

 

[Kirbeh]

I understand why most aren't enthused over the idea of reworks but after 25+ years of being mostly the same, I'd welcome a shake up for Smash personally.

Everyone is always concerned about losing a particular move or a character's game plan changing but that's just the nature of it when implementing any changes even if you're strictly adjusting values over actual move changes.

Street Fighter 6 I think actually presents a really good example. Ryu is still Ryu but he's got some new tools to work with. Everyone got some changes but also outright additions to make them feel fresh. Something like that is what I'd like to see for Smash. I still expect Mario to have all his N64 moves but having a handful of new tools (and replacing FLUDD) could go a long way imo.

And yes, there lies the question of where you'd even put any new tools, but I think they should do just that; make room for them.

There was a time before Side Specials and Up/Down Throw after all.

Maybe using Zair for more than just tethers could be a start?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I understand why most aren't enthused over the idea of reworks but after 25+ years of being mostly the same, I'd welcome a shake up for Smash personally.

Everyone is always concerned about losing a particular move or a character's game plan changing but that's just the nature of it when implementing any changes even if you're strictly adjusting values over actual move changes.

Street Fighter 6 I think actually presents a really good example. Ryu is still Ryu but he's got some new tools to work with. Everyone got some changes but also outright additions to make them feel fresh. Something like that is what I'd like to see for Smash. I still expect Mario to have all his N64 moves but having a handful of new tools (and replacing FLUDD) could go a long way imo.

And yes, there lies the question of where you'd even put any new tools, but I think they should do just that; make room for them.

There was a time before Side Specials and Up/Down Throw after all.

Maybe using Zair for more than just tethers could be a start?

As long as it doesn't sacrifice the simplicity Smash is supposed to strive, new moves options are fair game.

Maybe shield specials become more commonplace instead of being only on two characters?

 

[Perkilator]

Maybe shield specials become more commonplace instead of being only on two characters?

I think that mostly depends on which characters it would suit.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m okay with moveset complexity as long as the characters are still simple enough to pick up and play at a base level. So far, most of the characters have done this for me.

Kazuya, for example, has a ton of different attacks but you can still play him just like you would any other character and he performs well enough. Once you get into higher levels of play, it would make sense to try to learn every move and when best to use them but he’s still a ton of fun to a casual player like me.

Steve might be going a bit far because he feels kind of clunky to play if you don’t know what you’re doing. He’s still fun to mess around with but I have no confidence in being able to remotely compete with him, even casually.

 

[UserKev]

I don't mind the Rabbids as eventual Newcomers anymore. Their movesets is there. Their time travel gimmick is the most appealing thing about them.

 

[Gengar84]

I don't mind the Rabbids as eventual Newcomers anymore. Their movesets is there. Their time travel gimmick is the most appealing thing about them.

I still haven’t gotten over the fact that they took up multiple slots in the TMNT Smash game (Smash Up) lol. I’d be okay with them if they joined but they never really appealed much to me. They do have a lot of interesting moveset potential though, I agree.