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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

GoldenYuiitusin

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On the topic of clones; you could pick any of Melee's six clones, who would you pick and why? For me:
  1. Young Link (Link clone)
  2. Falco (Fox clone)
  3. Ayumi Tachibana (Peach/Zelda clone)
  4. Bubbles (Kirby clone)
  5. Mach Rider (Captain Falcon clone)
  6. Balloon Fighter (Mario/Luigi clone)
Only thing I would change is probably swap out Ganondorf for like DK Jr., or Baby Bowser (as a Yoshi RRRRRREP) though that requires foresight in expecting Ganondorf to appear again and thus likely being included in Brawl regardless with a different moveset.
 
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Gengar84

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Only thing I would change is probably swap out Ganondorf for like DK Jr., or Baby Bowser (as a Yoshi RRRRRREP) though that requires foresight in expecting Ganondorf to appear again and thus likely being included in Brawl regardless with a different moveset.
I’m fairly confident that we’d have gotten a unique Ganondorf in Brawl if he wasn’t added as a clone in Melee. I don’t really have any evidence to back that up but he’s an important enough character that it would have felt like a really big omission by then.
 

Sucumbio

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On the topic of clones; you could pick any of Melee's six clones, who would you pick and why? For me:
  1. Young Link (Link clone)
  2. Falco (Fox clone)
  3. Ayumi Tachibana (Peach/Zelda clone)
  4. Bubbles (Kirby clone)
  5. Mach Rider (Captain Falcon clone)
  6. Balloon Fighter (Mario/Luigi clone)
I get it now I was confused at first like Bubbles isn't in Melee :facepalm: I'd start with the actual 6 clones tho...and then pick 6 alternate characters is that your question?

Mario - Dr. Mario
Pikachu - Pichu
Fox - Falco
Link - Young Link
Captain Falcon - Ganondorf
Marth - Roy

..... Honestly I can't think of a single instance where what was done could be exchanged for someone else, that is except Captain Falcon. Instead of making Ganondorf slow Captain Falcon they should have made him unique but there wasn't enough time and blah blah. Whereas the other 5 at least share the same franchise, Falcondorf makes no sense and is obviously just the result of the timetable but I dunno maybe the game would still have been popular without Ganondorf?
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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I’m fairly confident that we’d have gotten a unique Ganondorf in Brawl if he wasn’t added as a clone in Melee. I don’t really have any evidence to back that up but he’s an important enough character that it would have felt like a really big omission by then.
Yeah, but in Melee times, you wouldn't have known the Gerudo form would appear again as opposed to just Ganon, which is my point.

I have no doubts TP Ganondorf would have been added in Brawl, but in MELEE, such knowledge is unobtainable.
 

Gengar84

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Yeah, but in Melee times, you wouldn't have known the Gerudo form would appear again as opposed to just Ganon, which is my point.

I have no doubts TP Ganondorf would have been added in Brawl, but in MELEE, such knowledge is unobtainable.
Oh, I see what you’re saying. That makes sense. Still, since Ganondorf and Ganon are the same character in different forms, I feel like we’d have gotten at least one of them regardless of what Twilight Princess did with the character. That would be pretty interesting if we had gotten classic Ganon over Dorf from the start. I wonder if we’d have gotten both forms by this point or if they’d turn them into transformations like they did with Samus/ZSS in Brawl.
 

Sucumbio

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Oh, I see what you’re saying. That makes sense. Still, since Ganondorf and Ganon are the same character in different forms, I feel like we’d have gotten at least one of them regardless of what Twilight Princess did with the character. That would be pretty interesting if we had gotten classic Ganon over Dorf from the start. I wonder if we’d have gotten both forms by this point or if they’d turn them into transformations like they did with Samus/ZSS in Brawl.
Honestly I think at the time the sheer scope of OoT's massive popularity dominated the decision maker's choices so it'd seem off for pig Ganon to be there. Originally Melee wasn't going to have the 6 characters who made it as clones so adding Ganondorf specifically was in line with Link, Zelda and Sheik, Young Link... But yeah I often also muse over what if they just didn't put him in until Brawl then he can be actual Ganondorf and be unique. If I figure out time travel imma do that actually be like nope on the whole let's put Ganondorf in Melee cuz 4 Zelda chrs isn't already enough for a game that's "out of time" let's add a 5th...
 

superprincess

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Only thing I would change is probably swap out Ganondorf for like DK Jr., or Baby Bowser (as a Yoshi RRRRRREP) though that requires foresight in expecting Ganondorf to appear again and thus likely being included in Brawl regardless with a different moveset.
DK Jr. and Baby Bowser are really interesting ideas, I'm kinda sad they didn't go with them in Melee considering that was their only real chance. I wonder what a lightweight DK or Bowser would feel like to play, given that they're both so intrinsically tied to the heavyweight playstyle.

Baby Bowser would've aged horribly though, with the later addition of Bowser Jr. The two basically look identical in modern games and never appear alongside each other (for a reason).

They could do Koopa Kid, which would also fit kinda better with Bowser's anatomy, and also have a unique name and look. But like DK Jr, the character basically died after the early 2000s.
 

fogbadge

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DK Jr. and Baby Bowser are really interesting ideas, I'm kinda sad they didn't go with them in Melee considering that was their only real chance. I wonder what a lightweight DK or Bowser would feel like to play, given that they're both so intrinsically tied to the heavyweight playstyle.

Baby Bowser would've aged horribly though, with the later addition of Bowser Jr. The two basically look identical in modern games and never appear alongside each other (for a reason).

They could do Koopa Kid, which would also fit kinda better with Bowser's anatomy, and also have a unique name and look. But like DK Jr, the character basically died after the early 2000s.
was koopa kid that Mario party character they renamed mini bowser in the uk version?
 

Jave

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Re: Waluigi Final Smash

My idea for this is also Waluigi Pinball, but designed for the current "cinematic" style of FS Ultimate did. In "Hammerspace" style, Waluigi pulls out a normal-sized pinball machine and smashes it to the ground in front of him, creating blast waves around him. Here the cutscene begins. Anyone caught in the blast gets shrunk and sucked into the machine, trapped inside a transparent ball, and lined up in the shooter lane. From outside and still normal-sized, instead of pulling the plunger, Waluigi brings out a hammer and hits the plunger with all of his force. The balls with the characters inside get launched at super speed, hitting the bumpers on top multiple times and taking damage with each hit. The machine starts shaking and overheating, and the scoreboard on the machine goes too high until it reads "TILTED". We go back to regular gameplay, where the machine finally explodes and all the characters inside get blasted towards the edge of the screen.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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I would have liked if Melee added Mach Rider as a Captain Falcon clone and Donkey Kong Jr. as a… well Donkey Long clone, because unless they get some big revival I highly doubt they will ever make it into the series.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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DK Jr. and Baby Bowser are really interesting ideas, I'm kinda sad they didn't go with them in Melee considering that was their only real chance. I wonder what a lightweight DK or Bowser would feel like to play, given that they're both so intrinsically tied to the heavyweight playstyle.

Baby Bowser would've aged horribly though, with the later addition of Bowser Jr. The two basically look identical in modern games and never appear alongside each other (for a reason).

They could do Koopa Kid, which would also fit kinda better with Bowser's anatomy, and also have a unique name and look. But like DK Jr, the character basically died after the early 2000s.
I deadass forgot Koopa Kid was a thing.

Yeah, that would have worked.
 

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So, a lot of franchises that were added in Smash 4 onwards only have one stage. The older franchises have a variety of stages but it always struck me as strange that some of these prominent franchises only have one. Even something as limited as Ice Climber had two stages.

So let's try and make a new stage for the Smash 4 onwards franchise that only have one.

Those franchises would be...

Mega Man
Wii Fit
Punch Out!!
Duck Hunt
Street Fighter
Bayonetta
Splatoon
Castlevania
Persona
Dragon Quest
Banjo Kazooie
Fatal Fury / King of Fighters
ARMS
MineCraft
Tekken
Kingdom Hearts
 

Sucumbio

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So, a lot of franchises that were added in Smash 4 onwards only have one stage. The older franchises have a variety of stages but it always struck me as strange that some of these prominent franchises only have one. Even something as limited as Ice Climber had two stages.

So let's try and make a new stage for the Smash 4 onwards franchise that only have one.

Those franchises would be...
Castlevania has my attention the most I've pretty much reincarnated all my favorite spots in SOTN with the level maker lol I would love another stage tho of any sort especially if Alucard becomes playable...

Edit

Wait add this for Mega Man!

 
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Gengar84

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So, a lot of franchises that were added in Smash 4 onwards only have one stage. The older franchises have a variety of stages but it always struck me as strange that some of these prominent franchises only have one. Even something as limited as Ice Climber had two stages.

So let's try and make a new stage for the Smash 4 onwards franchise that only have one.

Those franchises would be...

Mega Man
Wii Fit
Punch Out!!
Duck Hunt
Street Fighter
Bayonetta
Splatoon
Castlevania
Persona
Dragon Quest
Banjo Kazooie
Fatal Fury / King of Fighters
ARMS
MineCraft
Tekken
Kingdom Hearts
I’d love a stage based around Central Highway from Mega Man X. I made one in Stage Builder that I was really happy with. Basically, the largest platform can be blown up and fall to the bottom of the screen where the pillars that were holding it up acted like walls. There was a space at the base of each pillar for you to get through back to the top section so you aren’t trapped there. In my version, you could blow up the platform again at the bottom to have it respawn and return to its original position.

Basically, the stage is based around this section starting at 40 seconds (the giant flying bee would be a background element rather than a stage boss):

 
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SpecterFlower

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This would be the quickest way to nosedive Smash into the pavement as a franchise. It would also be unnecessary, seeing how 85% of the current Smash roster feels very actualized and the remaining 15% that don't wouldn't need this much focus from the devs to change. Smash for Wii U/3DS had a pretty large roster and the devs still found time to rework Bowser.

Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Tekken fans wish their rosters were more like Smash Bros., not the other way around. That's also not getting into how publishers have used smaller rosters to nickel and dime the customer with excessive DLC, some of which (like SFVI's season 1 and MK1's Shang Tsung) seemed to have been planned for the base game.

It's a Faustian bargain, man. It's not worth getting a reworked Ganondorf or Sonic if the cost is the worst aspect of modern fighters infecting Smash too.
Read my post.

30 would be better for me but I recognize people don’t want that.

I already know everything you’re saying.
 

Gengar84

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Read my post.

30 would be better for me but I recognize people don’t want that.

I already know everything you’re saying.
Any particular reason you’d personally prefer the roster to return to pre-Brawl size? I understand the argument that it’s easier to balance with a smaller roster but I feel like that would pretty much kill the point of speculation or hoping to ever see one of your favorite characters. I suppose for strictly competitive players, that sacrifice might be worth it but I’d have a hard time getting excited for it without a much more ambitious SSE-like adventure mode to make up for the much smaller roster.
 
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superprincess

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It's interesting to explore more limited roster possibilities, like 20-30 characters, but I feel like the cuts would limit the potential newcomers, which Smash heavily relies on. You can't really do Waluigi if you cut Rosalina or Bowser Jr., or Bandana Dee if you cut King Dedede or Meta Knight. It's even worse when it comes to 3rd parties: no one would want Geno if it came at the expense of Cloud. Or Lloyd over Kazuya.

I'd love to go back to the drawing board because Ultimate has objective gameplay flaws that prevent it from being a competent fighting game and its cast is really shallow playstyle-wise. That all comes to down to the engine and how the characters are balanced, which can't be reworked unless there's a major roster cut.

Most people would be fine with continuing where we left off though, or approximately the same amount. So I think that's what they're gonna do.
 

Kirbeh

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So, a lot of franchises that were added in Smash 4 onwards only have one stage. The older franchises have a variety of stages but it always struck me as strange that some of these prominent franchises only have one. Even something as limited as Ice Climber had two stages.

So let's try and make a new stage for the Smash 4 onwards franchise that only have one.

Those franchises would be...

Mega Man
Wii Fit
Punch Out!!
Duck Hunt
Street Fighter
Bayonetta
Splatoon
Castlevania
Persona
Dragon Quest
Banjo Kazooie
Fatal Fury / King of Fighters
ARMS
MineCraft
Tekken
Kingdom Hearts
Mega Man - It's the cliche answer but if we can use content from the other series, Central Highway from X feels like a no brainer.

Wii Fit - This one's a little more abstract but I like the idea of making the Balance Board a stage and taking the Balance part quite literally. Have the stage tilt and shift around during the fight so players have to actively try to keep their "balance".

Punch Out - Either Doc's gym or a scrolling stage based on Mac's roadwork training. For the latter, they could expand upon it and add more locations in the background for other characters to cameo in. You could pass a cafe where Glass Joe is relaxing and drinking coffee for example, or have some of the other boxers also running to train or just walking on their commute doing other things. The key characters would of course be Doc Louis and Little Mac who the scrolling would be following. If Mac is in a match, you'd just follow Doc on his bike.

Duck Hunt - Since Hogan's Alley is part of their moveset, maybe a stage based on that?

Street Fighter - To many good options but I'll go with a Ken stage since he's playable now. That said I would skip SF2 in favor of repping a different game. In this case, I would prefer his Alpha 2 stage celebrating Eliza's birthday with all the other Capcom character cameos left intact. And maybe as an extra easter egg, the system could read your birthdate and change the banner to your profile username on your birthday.

Bayonetta - It's actually been quite some time since I last played the games so I don't really remember the location names. However, I think I'd skip 3 entirely in favor of a stage based on the Cereza game. I adore the art style of that game and it'd make for a beautiful stage.

Sploon - I still haven't played 2 or 3 but I'm sure there's no shortage of good options from both the multiplayer maps or single player campaigns.

Castlevania - I've played very little Castlevania so I can't really give a proper location here either. I do think either a clock tower area or some place outdoors would be nice though.

Persona - If we can pull from any game then I'd actually like them to go back and pull from Persona 1 or 2. Nothing particular in mind here otherwise. If it has to be from 5, then just convert one of the palaces into a stage. Again, no preference.

DQ/BK - Skipping because I haven't played their games.

Fatal Fury - Geese stage or Mt. Rushmore Terry stage

ARMS - Min Min's stage if only because I don't like that they gave her Spring Stadium

MC/Tekken - Don't know enough so skip once again.

KH - The city section of The World That Never Was.
 

Louie G.

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You can't really do Waluigi if you cut Rosalina or Bowser Jr., or Bandana Dee if you cut King Dedede or Meta Knight. It's even worse when it comes to 3rd parties: no one would want Geno if it came at the expense of Cloud. Or Lloyd over Kazuya.
I wonder if this is just something we're going to have to prepare ourselves for. Like, when it comes to guest characters, we still don't really know the standard for how many should be expected to make a reappearance. If we aren't seeing every single one return there are bound to be some tradeoffs that feel a little bit uneven. We're probably gonna be faced with that even if like 50-60 vets return.

And if Ultimate is more or less the peak of what's sustainable on a roster, what's the priority? Sustaining all the staples, and who makes the most practical sense going down some sort of unspoken hierarchy, or do we make seemingly unfair sacrifices for the sake of the new? I don't especially think Mario or Kirby are in crucial danger of losing its most important characters in favor of secondary additions... or I suppose tertiary in respect to Mario. There will probably be enough room to build on them as is. But it does make me curious about the points where we will have to face this skewing of priorities and either determine it's more important to conserve a status quo or become more lenient about losing characters in favor of letting the series progress. I'm not sure how I feel about it.
 
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SpecterFlower

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Any particular reason you’d personally prefer the roster to return to pre-Brawl size? I understand the argument that it’s easier to balance with a smaller roster but I feel like that would pretty much kill the point of speculation or hoping to ever see one of your favorite characters. I suppose for strictly competitive players, that sacrifice might be worth it but I’d have a hard time getting excited for it without a much more ambitious SSE-like adventure mode to make up for the much smaller roster.
I want every fighter to be made form the ground up with no assets reuse from old games.

each with an entirely new moveset.

Mario has played the same for 2 decades now. I got bored of that 10 years ago.
 
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Gengar84

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I want every fighter to be made form the ground up with no assets reuse from old games.

each with an entirely new moveset.

Mario has played the same for 2 decades now. I got bored of that 10 years ago.
That’s a solid enough reason. I think I could accept a reset button like that if the end result made the general mechanics and remaining characters a lot more fun to play. I’m happy enough with how it plays now but there’s always room to revisit and improve things. I wouldn’t lock the roster at Brawl levels past that point though, I’d just use it as a new starting point to build from.

The one scenario I’d be happy with a locked 50ish character roster is if they turned Smash into “X vs Nintendo” and half the roster was completely fresh every game. The Nintendo side could shake things up a bit but most of the newcomers would come from whatever they were pairing off against.
 
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Garteam

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I don't think existing third parties will be cut in favour of new third-party franchises from the same company because that's just not how Smash does things. We've only seen Smash lose a franchise twice: Ice Climber, which was solely due to technical difficulties, and Metal Gear, which most seem to agree comes down to Konami and Kojima Productions entering the beginning of the end of their professional relationship. Seniority has also always been a major factor in Smash's roster. There's a big emphasis on continuity in terms of content present in the game (subject to dev time restraints, of course).

I can't see something like Mega Man being cut in favour of another Capcom rep or Kazuya being cut in favour of an alternative Namco rep. It's just not Sakurai's style, for lack of a better phrase. If it comes down to a vet and a potential newcomer, the newcomer is most likely getting the boot to DLC.

I think there's a little more merit for this happening to the supporting casts for first-party franchises because we've seen those types of characters cut more consistently. We also have a good idea of why these types of characters get cut and it's all about priority. I could see something happening like Bowser Jr., Meta Knight, or Isabelle getting knocked down in terms of priority because Waluigi, Bandana Waddle Dee, or Tom Nook is being added instead. Whether they'd become so deprioritized that they wouldn't make the base roster is a little more questionable though.
 
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Louie G.

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I want every fighter to be made form the ground up with no assets reuse from old games.

each with an entirely new moveset.
Sorry, but this really doesn't work with Smash Bros. Each character is already designed with a certain amount of authenticity in mind, suited to specific roles that best classify each character. Like Mario and Kirby need to be beginner characters, there isn't a ton of flexibility here to make them over the top crazy. Sure, there's a lot you can do, but there needs to be an amount of cohesion to it and it can't be too unwieldly.

Some characters can get away with full reworks, I think. Like Link, or Samus. But Link probably isn't going to stop using arrows and bombs, Samus probably isn't going to abandon the charge shot and missiles. There's a lot of flexibility in respect to how these moves can operate, but the essences of each character are clearly thought out and best matched to the most efficient way to represent what they are about. Making too many of these changes comes off arbitrary and risks making the characters feel even less like themselves.

Not to mention certain essential returning characters, like (IMO) Peach or King Dedede, who personally I feel are about as well done as they could be give or take a move or two. Saying every character gets revamped is one thing, saying they all get entirely new movesets is a totally different thing. Not even to mention characters like Fox or Villager / Isabelle - where do we go with them? Everyone has potential to grow and change, but arbitrarily changing everything about the current roster is over-correcting and unlikely unless the entire structure of the game changes and everyone is forced to accommodate it. Which I'd be interested to see - a traditional Nintendo crossover fighter is a dream of mine - but having that take the place of Smash doesn't seem too feasible.
 
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Godzillathewonderdog

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So, a lot of franchises that were added in Smash 4 onwards only have one stage. The older franchises have a variety of stages but it always struck me as strange that some of these prominent franchises only have one. Even something as limited as Ice Climber had two stages.

So let's try and make a new stage for the Smash 4 onwards franchise that only have one.

Those franchises would be...

Mega Man
Wii Fit
Punch Out!!
Duck Hunt
Street Fighter
Bayonetta
Splatoon
Castlevania
Persona
Dragon Quest
Banjo Kazooie
Fatal Fury / King of Fighters
ARMS
MineCraft
Tekken
Kingdom Hearts
Air Man Stage
Obstacle Course
The Big City
Clay Shooting
Shopping District
Cruise Ship
Scorch Gorge
Clocktower
Niijima’s Casino (if we can go outside of P5 then Tartarus)
Alefgard
Treasure Trove Cove
Geese Building
Ramen Bowl
The Nether
Moonlit Wilderness
Destiny Islands
 

Louie G.

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How do you guys feel about Piranha Plant's chances of returning?
I've spoken on it before but long story short, it just doesn't look that good for them.

Prioritizing Plant over Rosalina or Bowser Jr would feel like lopsided priorities, and with Mario's current wealth of characters and likelihood of getting new ones they would likely be one of the first series to see significant cuts (alongside Pokemon and Fire Emblem). I can see Plant lingering somewhere on the backburner of characters who could slip back in late into development, assuming they were not the most time intensive character in the first place, but I see no scenario where Piranha Plant isn't at most a very low priority addition relative to their competition.

And ultimately, that's ok. I like Piranha Plant, and every character is going to have their fans, but I also recognize that they're a novel character who serves just fine as a silly treat. The bigger Smash gets the more of a revolving door it is prone to become, and frankly it's just difficult to argue that Piranha Plant should make that cut over... pretty much any other fully unique character. Outside of a distinct and fun moveset, a liberty that a lot of the roster already has, everything else is kind of stacked against them.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I've spoken on it before but long story short, it just doesn't look that good for them.

Prioritizing Plant over Rosalina or Bowser Jr would feel like lopsided priorities, and with Mario's current wealth of characters and likelihood of getting new ones they would likely be one of the first series to see significant cuts (alongside Pokemon and Fire Emblem). I can see Plant lingering somewhere on the backburner of characters who could slip back in late into development, assuming they were not the most time intensive character in the first place, but I see no scenario where Piranha Plant isn't at most a very low priority addition relative to their competition.

And ultimately, that's ok. I like Piranha Plant, and every character is going to have their fans, but I also recognize that they're a novel character who serves just fine as a silly treat. The bigger Smash gets the more of a revolving door it is prone to become, and frankly it's just difficult to argue that Piranha Plant should make that cut over... pretty much any other fully unique character. Outside of a distinct and fun moveset, a liberty that a lot of the roster already has, everything else is kind of stacked against them.
Yeah, they'll probably add a new wtf character instead tbh, i like plant, but his novelty kind of wore off, so i dont see him returning either.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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How do you guys feel about Piranha Plant's chances of returning?
I could see Piranha Plant returning if the devs have enough time to focus on other characters with higher priority.

But unless the demand for it's return is high enough, I don't see them keeping it over far more major and popular characters that are already playable in Smash as well.
 

Gorgonzales

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I want every fighter to be made form the ground up with no assets reuse from old games.

each with an entirely new moveset.

Mario has played the same for 2 decades now. I got bored of that 10 years ago.
I want fighter reworks, but not to this extent where we're replacing literally everything "just because". Balancing what makes the character work with new/more-accurate ideas on top of that is the perfect solution to making a character feel fresh without completely upending their design.

For example, I'd give Mario new specials across the board EXCEPT for neutral special, and most of his normals are fine as-is and require little change. Saying you want NOTHING re-used from the old kits feels kind of ridiculous; most characters will lose their defining moves. What are you gonna do for someone like Kirby? Not give him his inhale? The signature move he does in all his games?
 
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KingofPhantoms

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Made a tier list based much of a priority I think it would be for certain veterans to return.
View attachment 388473
Sheik, Toon Link and Little Mac are still extremely popular characters, so I doubt they're going anywhere.

Zero Suit Samus also captures a fighting style that might be unrepresented in the series otherwise, and Young Link is at least popular among Ultimate's playerbase, so I wouldn't be surprised if they return as well.

The rest is pretty on point,
 
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