Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Clones aren't "hand me downs".
They (for the most part) take from the source and give their own spin. Their own identity.

Pawning someone else's moveset onto an unrelated character just to "preserve" a moveset while overhauling a character is not the same thing. It's not their take on the source; it's someone else's forced onto them.
And for what? Because someone NEEDS to be drastically changed and the old style NEEDS to still be around in some way?

To make this specific to Ganondorf, if his current moveset is an issue (which it is, not because of any lingering Falcon-ness but because his kit just does not work and hasn't since Brawl), then just revamp him. There is literally no need to preserve his old moveset while giving him a new one, especially when, I reiterate, he's been consistently among the worst if not THE absolute worst character for over a decade. Why would you EVER want to force that upon someone else and their fans?

"But people that played as him before won't have the moveset".
Honestly? Tough *****. People have had to go without previous characters and their movesets before and they will again. That's just how it works.


Now I'm going to stop here since I really don't feel like continuing this topic.

 

[Ivander]

I just hope none of you people arguing against Black Shadow as a Falcon clone are the same ones who think Impa should replace Sheik and take her moveset. There seems to be a lot more acceptance toward that idea despite Impa having way more potential to be a unique character than Black Shadow does.

I mean, some people are probably desperate considering the absolute lack of attention given to Zelda characters lately. They'd more than likely be A-Ok with Impa having a new moveset, but considering the unique movesets that Impa has are in both Hyrule Warriors games by Koei Tecmo, which Nintendo has so far ignored aside from the spirit event, expecting Impa to get moves based on her Hyrule Warriors incarnations should be taken with a grain of salt. Doesn't help that despite her recurring appearances, she is heavily overshadowed by all of the BotW/TotK Champions and Sages.

At least flavor and lore-wise, Impa can make sense as a Sheik Echo since she outright taught Zelda/Sheik in OoT.

Edit: While on the subject, imagine if they did give Ganondorf a revamped moveset. What happens if the new moveset is even worse competitive and fun-wise than his old moveset?

Edit: I just realised you said replace Sheik and I don't think anybody has suggested Impa replace Sheik as far as I've seen.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I just hope none of you people arguing against Black Shadow as a Falcon clone are the same ones who think Impa should replace Sheik and take her moveset.

Does anyone actually suggest that Impa should replace Sheik? I only see people suggest that she be an Echo.

 

[Louie G.]

I just hope none of you people arguing against Black Shadow as a Falcon clone are the same ones who think Impa should replace Sheik and take her moveset. There seems to be a lot more acceptance toward that idea despite Impa having way more potential to be a unique character than Black Shadow does.

I don't really believe in "replacement" characters. It's a really lazy way to look at the roster as a whole, so I'm pretty consistent in that opinion. It's particularly reductive in Impa's case, both in how it erases her own potential and how replacing Sheik 1:1 really does nothing at all aside from bring in a more "relevant" face. I couldn't care less about that.

I'm in favor of Black Shadow as a Captain Falcon clone in theory. I just don't like how the conversation around him comes off more as a means to an end than a genuine conversation about F-Zero characters. I don't have a lot of stake in him one way or the other, but if a character I really liked only came up in such a reductive way it would bother me quite a bit.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Did anyone have a problem when Devil Jin was added to Tekken 5 with the primary purpose of taking Jin’s original moveset from Tekken 3 after getting a new one in Tekken 4?

I don't really believe in "replacement" characters. It's a really lazy way to look at the roster as a whole, so I'm pretty consistent in that opinion.

I hope you weren’t a Soul Calibur fan when 5 came out.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Keep in mind.

We've only ever had one replacement in the history of Smash.

And that was Toon Link replacing Young Link.

 

[kirbstr]

I'm sure this is a tired out topic, but since I haven't seen it directly discussed yet since coming back - what is everybody feeling about the direction of the roster for the next game? In the broadest sense, what do you expect/want from the next game?

I fully expect the next Smash game to be Ultimate Deluxe or Ultimate 2 or something and just keep adding on the game. I have no idea how the contracts Nintendo makes with 3rd party companies work, but if the guest characters they added for FP1/2 can survive a rerelease then that makes the most sense. Literally anything else they could do would feel disappointing to fans and live in the shadow of Ultimate unless they somehow bring everyone back again, which Sakurai said won't happen.

Ultimate has a lot to be improved on single player content wise. Its also very unpolished mechanically. There are loads of ways they could revamp the gameplay by going back to the project, and it would probably be easier for Sakurai and the team than to have to start from scratch again.

As for new characters, Ultimate originally launched with 6 newcomers, a "deluxe" edition could easily launch with double or triple that given the development cycle of a normal smash title. As other people have said, the illustrious 100 playable fighters milestone would also be in reach this way; whether that ends up being 100 including echos or actually reaching character #100. 100 playable fighters on release would be a massive selling point for the game and could give it distinct branding compared to Ultimate's "everyone is here".

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Keep in mind.

We've only ever had one replacement in the history of Smash.

And that was Toon Link replacing Young Link.

Lucas almost replaced Ness twice.

 

[Schnee117]

Did anyone have a problem when Devil Jin was added to Tekken 5 with the primary purpose of taking Jin’s original moveset from Tekken 3 after getting a new one in Tekken 4?

I mean, Tekken justified it in story and at the end of the day, it's an Alternative Jin.

I hope you weren’t a Soul Calibur fan when 5 came out.

And everyone hated that game and especially the roster because of it.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I mean, Tekken justified it in story and at the end of the day, it's an Alternative Jin.



And everyone hated that game and especially the roster because of it.

So if this happen with an alternate version of a character in Smash would it be cool? Let’s say in an alternate universe Mario was at some point was given a brand new moveset to implement more of his power ups and abilities, and Dr. Mario was added with the purpose of taking Mario’s old moveset, is that ok? I’m curious where people draw the line on this issue.

Soul Calibur V also made me wish I wasn’t a fan at that point lol. That said Tekken 3 also replaced a lot of characters and people love that game and its roster way more than the first 2. I don’t know why I didn’t just use Tekken 3 as my example in the first place.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Lucas almost replaced Ness twice.

Almost happened means it didn't happen.

 

[Kirbeh]

"Replacement" characters are actually pretty common in fighting games. It's just another case of Smash spoiling it's fanbase to the point that genre norms are completely foreign ideas.

Granted most players (for both Smash and other fighters) would prefer that all they're favorites get retained game to game but endless growth just isn't feasible and sometimes devs just want to try putting a different spin on things.

On the subject of F-Zero specifically, I'm personally not a fan of the "slap Ganondorf's kit" on someone else idea either but I don't think giving Falcon a Falco or Wolf equivalent is necessarily a bad idea either.

I think making Blood Falcon an echo or Black Shadow a semi clone are still perfectly viable options, and I do want Ganondorf to receive further changes. That said, some parts of the kit I think manage to be perfect fits even if they technically originated as Smash original moves through CF.

If we did get BS for example, he could still take a lot of inspiration from Falcon/Dorf but I'd still have Dorf keep the down air stomp and his own attacks like f tilt, fair, and Flame Choke.

Outside of easy clone material I do think BS should still get some unique moves of his own to set him apart too.

And for F-Zero in general I'd personally be happy with a good number of other choices if they wanted to go a different route. They'd all pretty much be Smash original move sets, but I don't see that as a bad thing personally.

Also to touch on Soul Calibur V very briefly, it really was such a disappointing mixed bag. I actually really like the gameplay in V and there were some genuinely cool redesigns and newcomer additions like Viola and ZWEI. I just think that if a game does intend to pass the torch and have successor characters though, it needs to be done more gradually. The all at once, complete replacement strategy doesn't really work as demonstated by both SCV and SF3.

I don't think the roster reception for V would have been nearly as bad if they'd retained at least one of the Alexandra sisters and Taki.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I could see Astral Chain and Ring Fit geting a rep for unreped 1st party franchises, maybe Golden Sun for an older franchise.
For 3rd party i think Profesor Layton has a decent chance to get a rep, specially if his new game sells well, Atelier, Tales and Guilty Gear are probably up there too.
I was going to say Genshin Impact and Elden Ring as well, but they have no Nintendo presence so yeah most likely won't happen.

no nintendo presence seems to be a good thing for newcomers to be honest.

joker, snake, sora, cloud.

it doesn't matter

I fully expect the next Smash game to be Ultimate Deluxe or Ultimate 2 or something and just keep adding on the game. I have no idea how the contracts Nintendo makes with 3rd party companies work, but if the guest characters they added for FP1/2 can survive a rerelease then that makes the most sense. Literally anything else they could do would feel disappointing to fans and live in the shadow of Ultimate unless they somehow bring everyone back again, which Sakurai said won't happen.

Ultimate has a lot to be improved on single player content wise. Its also very unpolished mechanically. There are loads of ways they could revamp the gameplay by going back to the project, and it would probably be easier for Sakurai and the team than to have to start from scratch again.

As for new characters, Ultimate originally launched with 6 newcomers, a "deluxe" edition could easily launch with double or triple that given the development cycle of a normal smash title. As other people have said, the illustrious 100 playable fighters milestone would also be in reach this way; whether that ends up being 100 including echos or actually reaching character #100. 100 playable fighters on release would be a massive selling point for the game and could give it distinct branding compared to Ultimate's "everyone is here".

that's just kicking the can down the road, what happens after smash ultimate 2?

do 3?
people will be sick of it, change is needed at some point and pretty much every other fighter found cuts and new characters are an integral part of that.

people are excited to see who comes back and excited ot see whos new and most importantly for the engine to change, for slight tweaks, a new main menu or soundtrack, you cant reiterate an old thing forever. that just causes gradual disinterest. less characters doesnt equal worse game, Content = better is an awful way of measuring hope good a game is.

they can differentiate it in game play, add a 5th special move to every character, add perfect dodging, make it so that sudden death is different or that items have unique ways of spawning in.

lets look at this theoretically, smash ultimate DX come s out with 20 new characters

we have gone 12 years on ultimate with dx included, now its 110 character going down to 70 would be a dissapointment, what now?

this aslo isnt a mario kart 8 situation in whihc no one bought a wii u, smash ultimate hass sold 30mil, a dx wont work, the idea is jsut flawed to a ridiclous extreme as it just make smore problems while fixing none of the old ones.
ultimate has a lot that can be improved but at some point you have to accept change is invetable and you gotta move on.

the next smash probably wont be drasstic in its cuts but there will be some, as introducing more and more characters makes it more and more impossible to create characters for a game.

the only reason smash ultimate happene did becuase everything could be reused from wii u essentialy.

smash launch rosters are incredibly large and no other fighting game can even compare,

i think someone else said this but smash ultimate spoiled smash fans from industry reality's, it was lighting in a bottle that may not be able to ever happen again. and thats fine. a cut character in the next game can come back a couple games down the line, not every game has to try to be the new ultimate.

 

[Ivander]

I don't think the roster reception for V would have been nearly as bad if they'd retained at least one of the Alexandra sisters and Taki.

Which the directors did want to do, as Cassandra was planned, but unfortunately, Namco hates Soul Calibur and said, "Nope." There's a reason why it took the director of SCVI so much effort to get Namco to actually give a **** to allow the director to put in the effort.

 

[Kirbeh]

Which the directors did want to do, as Cassandra was planned, but unfortunately, Namco hates Soul Calibur and said, "Nope." There's a reason why it took the director of SCVI so much effort to get Namco to actually give a **** to allow the director to put in the effort.

It's honestly one of my biggest gripes with Namco. They did pretty much neglect or outright sabotage Soul Calibur whenever possible because they don't think the series can coexist alongside Tekken for whatever reason. It's like sure, Tekken is the more popular of the two but there's still an audience for Soul Calibur. But it doesn't pull the same numbers so it's not worth making at all in the suits eyes.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's honestly one of my biggest gripes with Namco. They did pretty much neglect or outright sabotage Soul Calibur whenever possible because they don't think the series can coexist alongside Tekken for whatever reason. It's like sure, Tekken is the more popular of the two but there's still an audience for Soul Calibur. But it doesn't pull the same numbers so it's not worth making at all in the suits eyes.

Part of me wonders how profitable Soul Calibur games are.

They're decent sellers, but are they expensive to make? Do the guest characters bring in enough sales?

Soul Calibur being too expensive to make for its sales bracket would explain things.

 

[Ivander]

Part of me wonders how profitable Soul Calibur games are.

They're decent sellers, but are they expensive to make? Do the guest characters bring in enough sales?

Soul Calibur being too expensive to make for its sales bracket would explain things.

Soul Calibur 6 released in 2018 and sold over 2 million copies since 2021 and supposedly Namco says the launch was "successful". Make of that what you will.

That said, can't be more expensive to make compared to Tekken, considering last time I checked, Tekken 8 gets full-blown cutscenes for all of it's Story while Soul Calibur VI, for the most part, did not. It had some, but nowhere near as much as Tekken 7 or 8.

 

[Oracle Link]

Well... I just don't see a lot of first-parties that are big fan requests these days, anyway. Waluigi, BWD, maybe Isaac...

I think the ratio will probably be about the same as normal for first-party new series tbh. It's usually mostly existing series, because there aren't as many new notable series that pop up as there are remaining big characters from the big series.

If DK gets the rumored revival, that will help Dixie. But if Astral Chain gets the rumored sequel, that will help that character. Eventually a certain Pokemon/FE/Xenoblade character will become fairly popular due to expectation, but RFT will probably also be expected due to that game's success and the general lower bar of first-parties these days.

Though I guess excluding future IPs, the max first-party new series cap would probably be four: Golden Sun, Astral Chain, Ring Fit, and potentially the surprise character. And that's best-case scenario for new IP, imo. Others like RH aren't impossible, but they don't seem likely.

I mean impa and magolor are on the level of dark samus or daisy in terms of requests!

 

[fogbadge]

no nintendo presence seems to be a good thing for newcomers to be honest.

joker, snake, sora, cloud.

it doesn't matter

i notice you picked 4 characters who were on nintendo consoles

 

[Gengar84]

Clones aren't "hand me downs".
They (for the most part) take from the source and give their own spin. Their own identity.

Pawning someone else's moveset onto an unrelated character just to "preserve" a moveset while overhauling a character is not the same thing. It's not their take on the source; it's someone else's forced onto them.
And for what? Because someone NEEDS to be drastically changed and the old style NEEDS to still be around in some way?

To make this specific to Ganondorf, if his current moveset is an issue (which it is, not because of any lingering Falcon-ness but because his kit just does not work and hasn't since Brawl), then just revamp him. There is literally no need to preserve his old moveset while giving him a new one, especially when, I reiterate, he's been consistently among the worst if not THE absolute worst character for over a decade. Why would you EVER want to force that upon someone else and their fans?

"But people that played as him before won't have the moveset".
Honestly? Tough *****. People have had to go without previous characters and their movesets before and they will again. That's just how it works.


Now I'm going to stop here since I really don't feel like continuing this topic.

The problem is that’s exactly what Falcondorf has been since Melee. It feels like they wanted a slower more powerful Captain Falcon first and foremost and went with Ganondorf because he had a similar frame. Falcondorf’s moveset was never “Ganondorf’s kit” (particularly in Melee, which is the one I suggested be brought back). Melee Ganondorf was just a slower, stronger Captain Falcon. It was also by far the most competitively viable moveset he’s ever had.

We can agree to disagree on whether adding Black Shadow as a new Falcon clone is a good or bad idea, I don’t really care. What I do care about is the accusation that I only see characters as functions. Like everyone else, I was offended by Capcom’s justification used for cutting characters in MvC Infinite. Their argument was “why do we need X character when Y character can do mostly the same things?”. Black Shadow would be adding a new character to Smash that likely never would have gotten in otherwise. I think that’s the best use for clones, echoes, and other variant characters. Because of the reduced resource demand, clones let us play as characters we never would have had a chance to. I’ve had the exact same accusation used against me for my Fire Emblem idea.

I love Smash because I care about the characters themselves and their movesets are secondary to that. I’d prefer that they stay as accurate to their source material as possible so it actually feels like you’re playing the character and not just using the character as an excuse to have a moveset. On the other hand, I’d much rather have a clone than nothing and I view them as extra characters due to their lower demand on resources. I only make the Black Shadow suggestion because the original source for the moveset is another F-Zero character. Its not like I’m suggesting we cut Samus and give her moveset to Bill Rizer because they have many similar weapons.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not really. It's more like "Ganondorf had no other chance to get in at the time and fit the build as well as the moves meshed well with what he could do at the time thanks to known artwork and actual animations, plus a Tech Demo".

There's absolutely nothing to suggest they simply wanted a slower version of Falcon on its own. If they did, we'd actually have another F-Zero character to fit that. We don't because that wasn't the point behind it. It was a lucky clone addition, and they had a popular character choice that fit the bill in the end. We'd only either have another clone character(as there weren't other F-Zero models since GX didn't release yet, we still wouldn't have another F-Zero character in Melee. They would debut in Brawl at the earliest) or no one at all, really.

-------------

As for some of the 3rd parties mentioned earlier;

• Snake had multiple Nintendo games.
• Cloud appeared in a Final Fantasy spin-off. His own game appeared after his Smash debut.
• Joker was planned in a 3DS spin-off for who knows how long, but this didn't release till a bit before Smash Ultimate anyway. He wasn't added to promote the game itself, but it certainly would help Nintendo be more likely to choose him since they were getting along well with Atlus.
• Sora has had some Kingdom Hearts games on the 3DS beforehand.

Only Joker was kind of odd timing-wise. The rest had overall appearances quite a bit before they'd be in Smash. If Sonic was able to be put in Melee, he'd have appeared in a Nintendo game after Melee released, being a reverse of Joker's. On the other hand, it's the same thing; the companies got along. One difference is Sonic's content would probably reference the games that happen to appear due to being some of the latest(so stuff like Music, Stage, or Trophies. Moveset also may have been different).

 

[Gengar84]

Not really. It's more like "Ganondorf had no other chance to get in at the time and fit the build as well as the moves meshed well with what hecould do at the time thanks to known artwork and actual animations, plus a Tech Demo".

There's absolutely nothing to suggest they simply wanted a slower version of Falcon on its own. If they did, we'd actually have another F-Zero character to fit that. We don't because that wasn't the point behind it. It was a lucky clone addition, and they had a popular character choice that fit the bill in the end. We'd only either have another clone character(as there weren't other F-Zero models since GX didn't release yet, we still wouldn't have another F-Zero character in Melee. They would debut in Brawl at the earliest) or no one at all, really.

I understand there’s no real evidence to support the claim that they wanted a Falcon clone first and Ganondorf himself fit that role but that’s why I said “feels like”. You’re probably right that a Falcon clone was just the easiest way to get Ganondorf at that stage. My problem is that Ganondorf was one of Nintendo’s biggest villains and he was being made as a clone of a much less prominent character outside of Smash. They weren’t even from the same series. I had no big issues with Falcondorf in Melee because of what you said. He was a last minute additional character at the time. My issue is that they should have revamped him starting with Brawl but every change they’ve made to him made him worse competitively and/or were just taken from other characters instead of giving him his own attacks. His new Smash attacks are pretty much taken straight from Ike and Cloud.

At the end of the day, I’m still a Ganondorf main and I still find him fun to play. Otherwise, I wouldn’t bother and move onto someone else. If he stays a Falcon variant, then I can live with that. He just feels like a bit of a missed opportunity and a victim of poor timing.

This is very "characters are just functions" mentality if I'm being frank.

Like imagine if was the exact same as they are in Ultimate, but it came with a complete revamp of and the only purpose Dark Samus served was to "preserve the old moveset".

Same series or not, making someone a "hand me down" devalues their existence as if they had no reason to be in the game otherwise.

What are my options in this scenario? Here’s the most realistic ones I can think of:

1) stays as is while gets revamped to reference Dread
2) gets revamped along with so she’s now an echo of the Dread moveset
3) gets cut entirely

Of those options, I’d honestly go with number 1. It would give us more variety by keeping the old moveset while allowing herself to branch off. Of course, I’d rather take the hidden option number 4 where gets revamped to be completely original to her own moveset in Prime but I’m not sure they’d give us two completely new Samus movesets in one game. Especially if that came at the expense of a new character from the series like Raven Beak, which it likely would due to limited time and resources.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Honestly I’ve always thought Dark Samus fit the Samus moveset better than Samu, so I wouldn’t really mind Samus getting a revamp and Dark Samus staying mostly the same, although I do think that some updates would be appreciated on Dark Samus, but the general Playstyle stays in tact.

 

[kirbstr]

that's just kicking the can down the road, what happens after smash ultimate 2?

do 3?
people will be sick of it, change is needed at some point and pretty much every other fighter found cuts and new characters are an integral part of that.

people are excited to see who comes back and excited ot see whos new and most importantly for the engine to change, for slight tweaks, a new main menu or soundtrack, you cant reiterate an old thing forever. that just causes gradual disinterest. less characters doesnt equal worse game, Content = better is an awful way of measuring hope good a game is.

they can differentiate it in game play, add a 5th special move to every character, add perfect dodging, make it so that sudden death is different or that items have unique ways of spawning in.

lets look at this theoretically, smash ultimate DX come s out with 20 new characters

we have gone 12 years on ultimate with dx included, now its 110 character going down to 70 would be a dissapointment, what now?

this aslo isnt a mario kart 8 situation in whihc no one bought a wii u, smash ultimate hass sold 30mil, a dx wont work, the idea is jsut flawed to a ridiclous extreme as it just make smore problems while fixing none of the old ones.
ultimate has a lot that can be improved but at some point you have to accept change is invetable and you gotta move on.

the next smash probably wont be drasstic in its cuts but there will be some, as introducing more and more characters makes it more and more impossible to create characters for a game.

the only reason smash ultimate happene did becuase everything could be reused from wii u essentialy.

smash launch rosters are incredibly large and no other fighting game can even compare,

i think someone else said this but smash ultimate spoiled smash fans from industry reality's, it was lighting in a bottle that may not be able to ever happen again. and thats fine. a cut character in the next game can come back a couple games down the line, not every game has to try to be the new ultimate.

Two things here. For one, Smash is not a normal fighting game. Every character is a crossover that someone has an emotional connection to outside of smash itself. Sakurai has said he understands this very well in previous interviews. Secondly, the demographic of smash players is not the demographic of fighting game players. Plain and simple. Your average smash fan would see a smaller roster than Ultimate and be disappointed unless the next game was DRASTICALLY different gameplay wise.

Ultimate 2 or deluxe or whatever would be kicking the can down the road, but there is an end point in mind. Sakurai is already basically retired. If he returns to supervise or direct another smash game, it might as well be an Ultimate expansion due to the game already have a very concrete vision and philosophy instilled in it. Adding new characters/stages/modes and tweaking the engine slightly is significantly less work than making a new game from the ground up. It would basically be an upscaled version of the work the team did on the DLC. The series can eventually go in completely new direction once a new series director is found and Sakurai officially retires from game development.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Honestly I don't really see the problem with Black Shadow taking Ganondorf moveset, because this is a character that have pretty much no moveset potential and no source material to pull attacks from in the first place. If it was another franchise I might be annoyed, like imagine if they revamped Sonic's moveset and they give Shadow the old Sonic moveset that would feel very bad, but there's genuinely pretty much nothing you can do with Black Shadow aside from being another Falcon clone. The dude barely even have personality aside from being evil so there's really nothing to work with.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Two things here. For one, Smash is not a normal fighting game. Every character is a crossover that someone has an emotional connection to outside of smash itself. Sakurai has said he understands this very well in previous interviews. Secondly, the demographic of smash players is not the demographic of fighting game players. Plain and simple. Your average smash fan would see a smaller roster than Ultimate and be disappointed unless the next game was DRASTICALLY different gameplay wise.

Ultimate 2 or deluxe or whatever would be kicking the can down the road, but there is an end point in mind. Sakurai is already basically retired. If he returns to supervise or direct another smash game, it might as well be an Ultimate expansion due to the game already have a very concrete vision and philosophy instilled in it. Adding new characters/stages/modes and tweaking the engine slightly is significantly less work than making a new game from the ground up. It would basically be an upscaled version of the work the team did on the DLC. The series can eventually go in completely new direction once a new series director is found and Sakurai officially retires from game development.

And this is why I think there’s a 50/50 chance the next game is going down the Live Service route. Because the only real way you can top Ultimate (that I see Nintendo and Sakurai doing) is to just make the game theoretically infinite. I really don’t want this, but I do think it makes too much sense not to be considered at all.

 

[Guynamednelson]

theoretically

Emphasis on theoretically.

Especially since live services are a bubble that's in the process of popping since not every gamer can afford to spend an equal amount of time and money on every single live service.

 

[Gengar84]

Emphasis on theoretically.

Especially since live services are a bubble that's in the process of popping since not every gamer can afford to spend an equal amount of time and money on every single live service.

I feel it depends on how everything is priced. I’d personally be okay with we just kept getting Fighter’s Passes indefinitely. Many live service games take advantage of their player base by overpricing everything and making the currency system really confusing by adding things like gems and loot boxes. Straight forward DLC with fair pricing like we’ve had so far in Smash a few times a year is reasonable to me.

 

[Kirbeh]

Two things here. For one, Smash is not a normal fighting game. Every character is a crossover that someone has an emotional connection to outside of smash itself. Sakurai has said he understands this very well in previous interviews. Secondly, the demographic of smash players is not the demographic of fighting game players. Plain and simple. Your average smash fan would see a smaller roster than Ultimate and be disappointed unless the next game was DRASTICALLY different gameplay wise.

Ultimate 2 or deluxe or whatever would be kicking the can down the road, but there is an end point in mind. Sakurai is already basically retired. If he returns to supervise or direct another smash game, it might as well be an Ultimate expansion due to the game already have a very concrete vision and philosophy instilled in it. Adding new characters/stages/modes and tweaking the engine slightly is significantly less work than making a new game from the ground up. It would basically be an upscaled version of the work the team did on the DLC. The series can eventually go in completely new direction once a new series director is found and Sakurai officially retires from game development.

Doesn't need to be a crossover for people to get attached to characters. I understand the sentiment but the phrasing here is off. People get upset about cuts in non-crossover games all the time. Being original or from an established series doesn't change the fact that people get attached to the characters either way.

I have to disagree with the second point as well. The different demographics part sure but in both cases I don't think the average fan cares as much about the roster size as they do the composition.

If the next Smash cut a lot of the commonly hated (or just less popular) characters like the clones, retros, drastically downsize the FE cast, etc. and we got a couple popular big names in their place, the average Smash fan probably wouldn't care about the roster being smaller if they like who's in it more than previously.

Nerds on a Smash dedicated forum like us aren't the average Smash fan after all. The average player isn't concerned with legacy or franchise representation, only select characters on the roster will truly matter to most individuals. I'd argue it's true for plenty of people within our niche as well honestly.

Likewise, I think the inverse is true for the gameplay. People enjoy and have grown comfortable with how Smash has played for the past two decades. Depending on how drastic, people would be much more averse to gameplay changes if it feels too different from what they're used to.

As for the last point, while I wouldn't be all that excited for an "Ultimate Deluxe", I also wouldn't blame them for going that route.

That said, after a game like Ultimate, what if Sakurai himself decides he wants to try and shake things up? Then what? I personally don't think he will change direction very much but if he does decide to do things differently I don't think it should be written off as a downgrade right out the gate.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I’m a little surprised that the idea of moveset preservation is as controversial as it is. I always thought if we wanted to make all three Links completely distinct, then give some classic Wind Waker items like the Deku Leaf and Skull Hammer, have do all the cool **** from BotW and TotK, then have preserve the classic moveset. Young Link could also be overhauled himself, but I think most would agree he fits the classic playstyle best and he’s had it since Melee anyways. I'd say just about the same thing for Dark Samus. I'd love Samus to get a Dread overhaul and then Dark Samus gets to retroactively become more distinct, even if you wanna reduce it to her “rocking Samus’ hand-me-downs.”

Obviously the case with Black Shadow isn’t quite the same thing, but I don’t think anyone is saying that. I think it’s just people genuinely believing it’s a good way to get the best of both worlds. However, I wonder if people would be more okay with it if say -

Black Shadow is added to Smash 4 as a clone of Ganondorf, with no meaningful changes made to Ganondorf. Then Ganondorf is overhauled for Ultimate, while Black Shadow retains his playstyle from Smash 4.

Would this be less egregious? Is the main issue just the optics of having a character added to immediately take over a moveset that is no longer being used?

 

[Gengar84]

Doesn't need to be a crossover for people to get attached to characters. I understand the sentiment but the phrasing here is off. People get upset about cuts in non-crossover games all the time. Being original or from an established series doesn't change the fact that people get attached to the characters either way.

I have to disagree with the second point as well. The different demographics part sure but in both cases I don't think the average fan cares as much about the roster size as they do the composition.

If the next Smash cut a lot of the commonly hated (or just less popular) characters like the clones, retros, drastically downsize the FE cast, etc. and we got a couple popular big names in their place, the average Smash fan probably wouldn't care about the roster being smaller if they like who's in it more than previously.

Nerds on a Smash dedicated forum like us aren't the average Smash fan after all. The average player isn't concerned with legacy or franchise representation, only select characters on the roster will truly matter to most individuals. I'd argue it's true for plenty of people within our niche as well honestly.

Likewise, I think the inverse is true for the gameplay. People enjoy and have grown comfortable with how Smash has played for the past two decades. Depending on how drastic, people would be much more averse to gameplay changes if it feels too different from what they're used to.

As for the last point, while I wouldn't be all that excited for an "Ultimate Deluxe", I also wouldn't blame them for going that route.

That said, after a game like Ultimate, what if Sakurai himself decides he wants to try and shake things up? Then what? I personally don't think he will change direction very much but if he does decide to do things differently I don't think it should be written off as a downgrade right out the gate.

I’m okay whatever they go with as long as the end result is fun and still has a lot of characters that interest me. The only thing I really don’t want is mostly the same game with less content. That would really feel like a downgrade. I’m open to a big shake up if it improves the experience as a whole even if we don’t get every single character or stage back.

 

[kirbstr]

Doesn't need to be a crossover for people to get attached to characters. I understand the sentiment but the phrasing here is off. People get upset about cuts in non-crossover games all the time. Being original or from an established series doesn't change the fact that people get attached to the characters either way.

Of course, but Smash in distinctly unique compared to other games. Who "gets in" and who doesn't always dominates discussion about the series. Other games can replace a character with a different one of a similar archetype and sill satisfy fans of that character somewhat. If Chrom gets cut in the next smash game people will be asking for him to return until the end of time even if Roy is still in the game.

I have to disagree with the second point as well. The different demographics part sure but in both cases I don't think the average fan cares as much about the roster size as they do the composition.

If the next Smash cut a lot of the commonly hated (or just less popular) characters like the clones, retros, drastically downsize the FE cast, etc. and we got a couple popular big names in their place, the average Smash fan probably wouldn't care about the roster being smaller if they like who's in it more than previously.

Nerds on a Smash dedicated forum like us aren't the average Smash fan after all. The average player isn't concerned with legacy or franchise representation, only select characters on the roster will truly matter to most individuals. I'd argue it's true for plenty of people within our niche as well honestly.

Funny, because I actually think the exact opposite lol. Nerds on smash boards are far more likely to be puritans about what characters "should" be in the game and which shouldn't. The hatred of Clones, Retros, Fire Emblem, and Pokemon reps has always been something I basically only ever see in these types of communities. 90% of casuals I've talked and played with appreciate having more characters to play as. I've seen people get absolutely FLAMED at parties for pulling up with a copy of smash that doesn't have all the DLC characters, even when the missing ones are like Byleth, Min Min, or Pythra.

That said, after a game like Ultimate, what if Sakurai himself decides he wants to try and shake things up? Then what? I personally don't think he will change direction very much but if he does decide to do things differently I don't think it should be written off as a downgrade right out the gate.

He could. I just wonder if he'd be willing to take on that kind of project again when he's basically retired at this stage, or at least he's approaching retirement very soon.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Doesn't need to be a crossover for people to get attached to characters. I understand the sentiment but the phrasing here is off. People get upset about cuts in non-crossover games all the time. Being original or from an established series doesn't change the fact that people get attached to the characters either way.

I have to disagree with the second point as well. The different demographics part sure but in both cases I don't think the average fan cares as much about the roster size as they do the composition.

If the next Smash cut a lot of the commonly hated (or just less popular) characters like the clones, retros, drastically downsize the FE cast, etc. and we got a couple popular big names in their place, the average Smash fan probably wouldn't care about the roster being smaller if they like who's in it more than previously.

Nerds on a Smash dedicated forum like us aren't the average Smash fan after all. The average player isn't concerned with legacy or franchise representation, only select characters on the roster will truly matter to most individuals. I'd argue it's true for plenty of people within our niche as well honestly.

The thing is, I think that tracing what the "average" Smash fan cares or doesn't care about is not that easy. More than 30 million people bought this game. I doubt they all only care about Mario, Sonic and Pikachu.
Frankly, if that was the case, they wouldn't have bothered making these giant rosters (Ultimate, but also Smash 4).
Plus, we've all been average Smash fans at one point. How many people had Ness as one of their favorite characters despite not knowing who he was back on Smash 64?

That said, the utilitarian approach makes sense...
Clones are more expendable because if you really liked Pichu in the previous game, chances are you'll be decently satisfied by playing Pikachu even though he doesn't offer quite exactly the same experience.
The 8th Fire Emblem character is probably more expendable than the only F-Zero one because that fanbase is still sufficiently catered to by the other seven, even though that would still sting for someone who really likes Corrin and doesn't care much about the others.

But I think it's more a matter of making the cuts sting as little as possible than anything else. People care about the Smash roster. That's been made abundantly clear a lot of times.

 

[cashregister9]

I am definitely a lot more soft on the concept of using old movesets on new characters for preservation than others.

I think it depends on the characters who is getting the old moveset like, I am fine with it if the character is like Mario -> Doctor Mario or Samus -> Dark Samus as the most extreme rather than something like Ganondorf -> Black Shadow

I'd be more okay with something like Ganondorf -> Phantom Ganon or something like that. I feel like that significantly decreases the "Super Skrull Problem"

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Black Shadow is added to Smash 4 as a clone of Ganondorf, with no meaningful changes made to Ganondorf. Then Ganondorf is overhauled for Ultimate, while Black Shadow retains his playstyle from Smash 4.

Would this be less egregious? Is the main issue just the optics of having a character added to immediately take over a moveset that is no longer being used?

This would 100% be better as then in this scenario, Black Shadow would have been added with his own take on the Falcon/Ganondorf base without being added half-heartedly merely as means to an end to "fix" Ganondorf.

Because at the end of the day, that's really all people that propose the idea of giving Ganondorf's moveset to Black Shadow or whoever care about. "Fixing Ganondorf". They couldn't actually give less of a **** about Black Shadow or Deathborn and just see them as an excuse to rehaul Ganondorf while "keeping the old moveset for those who like it ".

Essentially trying to have their cake and eat it too while pretending to actually care about anything else but Ganondorf. They don't really care about the old moveset. They don't really care about the F-Zero characters or franchise either. People should just be "grateful" the character shows up and the moveset is retained because "hue hue dead series", "hue hue no moveset potential (even though Falcon, the source, didn't either and still got something original to him)" while they get to gush over their shiny new Ganondorf. :/


Now I'm done for real.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I feel it depends on how everything is priced. I’d personally be okay with we just kept getting Fighter’s Passes indefinitely. Many live service games take advantage of their player base by overpricing everything and making the currency system really confusing by adding things like gems and loot boxes. Straight forward DLC with fair pricing like we’ve had so far in Smash a few times a year is reasonable to me.

Part of the reason why live service games are on a decline is that their install base can't grow forever and ever. Sakur-AI 3000 could decide FP100 is the one where they finally give in to adding Goku to Smash, but by that point the install base would've declined so much that people who would've been interested in Goku in Smash would be dead.

 

[Gengar84]

I am definitely a lot more soft on the concept of using old movesets on new characters for preservation than others.

I think it depends on the characters who is getting the old moveset like, I am fine with it if the character is like Mario -> Doctor Mario or Samus -> Dark Samus as the most extreme rather than something like Ganondorf -> Black Shadow

I'd be more okay with something like Ganondorf -> Phantom Ganon or something like that. I feel like that significantly decreases the "Super Skrull Problem"

I can understand that. The way I view it isn’t Ganondorf -> Black Shadow but instead Captain Falcon -> Ganondorf -> Black Shadow if that makes sense. Since the originator of the moveset was Captain Falcon it always made more sense for the clone to be another character from the same series. Ganondorf is the only outlier in Smash history as a clone from a completely different unrelated series just because the character had a vaguely similar body type.

 

[cashregister9]

I can understand that. The way I view it isn’t Ganondorf -> Black Shadow but instead Captain Falcon -> Ganondorf -> Black Shadow if that makes sense. Since the originator of the moveset was Captain Falcon it always made more sense for the clone to be another character from the same series. Ganondorf is the only outlier in Smash history as a clone from a completely different unrelated series just because the character had a vaguely similar body type.

I do agree with that logic and I do think it makes sense

but for a game like smash, to the general, non-smashboards public, People don't always play characters for their movesets, but because they like the character. So someone who plays ganondorf because they like ganondorf, wouldn't necessarily switch to Black Shadow.

 

[kirbstr]

I feel like people are just gonna have to accept that the move sets we've got for veteran fighters are here to stay barring very minor changes from game to game so long as Sakurai is the director and development lead; even though it really screws over characters that were originally added on a time crunch like Ganondorf and Sonic

 

[Gengar84]

I do agree with that logic and I do think it makes sense

but for a game like smash, to the general, non-smashboards public, People don't always play characters for their movesets, but because they like the character. So someone who plays ganondorf because they like ganondorf, wouldn't necessarily switch to Black Shadow.

That’s true. I’m one of those people. I play Ganondorf because I like him as a character and he looks cool. I play everyone on occasion so I’d use Black Shadow but he probably wouldn’t be my main. However, there are other people that do put more value in a specific moveset so letting those that loved playing Ganondorf primarily for the moveset first through a relatively easy clone in Black Shadow makes sense to me and I don’t see how it hurts anyone, especially since another F-Zero character is pretty unlikely otherwise.