Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[KneeOfJustice99]

Probably a controversial take, but I don't think I'd really mind them dropping reveal trailers of that ilk entirely. It's just, to me, I feel like it's a big part of the series's tendency to propagate a really highly-strung hype culture around it, and like... it might be because I'm not really a fan of the idea of Smash being a "cultural event", but drawing back that kind of thing a little would be nice.

It's like how there was this tendency for every single Nintendo Direct to be expected to contain a Smash reveal, and then people would get really annoyed and irate when there wasn't one, regardless of what actually was revealed. Like... come on, guys, really?

 

[chocolatejr9]

We've made it to 1100 pages! Huzzah!

Unrelated, but I beat the Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trilogy the other day. Anybody willing to talk Ace Attorney in Smash?

 

[superprincess]

Probably a controversial take, but I don't think I'd really mind them dropping reveal trailers of that ilk entirely. It's just, to me, I feel like it's a big part of the series's tendency to propagate a really highly-strung hype culture around it, and like... it might be because I'm not really a fan of the idea of Smash being a "cultural event", but drawing back that kind of thing a little would be nice.

It's like how there was this tendency for every single Nintendo Direct to be expected to contain a Smash reveal, and then people would get really annoyed and irate when there wasn't one, regardless of what actually was revealed. Like... come on, guys, really?

Couldn't have said it better. I hate the whole "cultural event" thing that a subset of Smash fans has made up. And it doesn't help that the whole philosophy of character reveals is exactly what appeals to the hypists who don't actually play the game; a spectacle to behold, another "super epic #gaming crossover" moment that has barely any bearing on the game itself.

I like characters reveals. They're basically cutscenes, stripped of any context and substance, but still. Cool character interactions in a crossover. In glorious CGI. You can't go wrong with it.

Maybe I just dislike the hype culture around them.

 

[DarthEnderX]

From Smash 4 to Ultimate, what are your opinions of how the reveal trailers have been conducted so far and how should be presented for Smash 6?

Personally, I LOVE watching a bunch of characters fight over an invitation when you aren't sure who's going to get it.

Which is why Terry and Min-Min were 2 of my favorites.

Terry's takes the crown though for also having so many retro SNK references.

Quite honestly I wish they'd get away from cinematic trailers. Who cares once its done? You get 1 blast of pleasure chemicals seeing it in the moment and then it's over.

Speak for yourself.

I get endless enjoyment from watching trailer reactions.

Didn't Sakurai kinda sorta admit that the budget that wouldve gone into in-game cutscenes was instead spent on the newcomer reveals?

Given a choice between cinematic trailers, and SSE's cutscenes...I prefer the trailers.

 

[Chuderz]

So what you guys hoping for when we get an actual proper Nintendo Direct? I've been kind of let down by Nintendo for the past 2 or so years as the Switch has been slowing down and showing its age and general underpoweredness as time marches on. I'm guessing we'll get one in June. I'm not expecting really anything new. I think it's fairly certain that all hands are on deck for titles for the next system.

At this point I'd just really like some GameCube remasters/ports. I really feel like this last February Direct could have been just the unleashing of GameCube ports. Just coast the rest of this year until the next system.

Twilight Princess and Windwaker are just so ready to be on the Switch at this point that it just has to be year... It just has to be! We've been waiting so long for those little rascals. Now that's a simple port as ports can be.

There was a rumor a while back about NextLevelGames working on an F-Zero GX remaster that I really hope is true. Fingers crossed.

Then maybe let's throw in Metroid Prime 2 Remaster for good measure to hold people over until the long awaited release of 4.

We already know Paper Mario TTYD is on the way so if we could just get a nice batch of these GameCube titles I think we'd have a solid harvest for the (very likely) last year for the Switch.

If I could be so bold as to just dream. Just dream like an absolute fool. Something I'd really like and think COULD be warranted is a Mario Party 4, 5, 6, and 7 collection. Add some online functionality and call it a day. They probably could get away with separating 2 of each game (like 4+5 and 6+7) into separate purchases to maximize profit. This kind of release I think would make a lot of business sense overall because neither of these titles are on NSO but the 3 titles before it (Mario Party 1, 2 and 3) are on NSO. It'd also be a nice voucher incentive.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So what you guys hoping for when we get an actual proper Nintendo Direct?

New Punch-Out or Wii Punch-Out remake.
Kid Icarus Uprising Remake.
Release date for that DQ3 2D-HD remake.
Castlevania DS Collection.

 

[cashregister9]

So what you guys hoping for when we get an actual proper Nintendo Direct?

I would give up a kidney to get a new Tomodachi game.

Also release Xenoblade X as well as WW and TP from Wii U hell

 

[Wonder Smash]

We've made it to 1100 pages! Huzzah!

Unrelated, but I beat the Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trilogy the other day. Anybody willing to talk Ace Attorney in Smash?

Maybe not in a playable sense but I don't mind some content, like spirits/trophies.

Quite honestly I wish they'd get away from cinematic trailers. Who cares once its done? You get 1 blast of pleasure chemicals seeing it in the moment and then it's over. You can revisit it and they're still cool and all but it just doesn't matter anymore because the fighter is released and you can just play them now. All that money could have gone to more content in the game we're actually playing. While I'm sure cinematic trailers can do wonders for marketing a game/DLC I still would rather that money go towards actual content. So sign me up for every fighter getting an in-game trailer for now on if it means more money for the devs to work with.

People (including myself) love the cinematic trailers, especially when they reference games that they like. I just love how Duck Hunt went from starting off like his NES game to eventually transitioning into a Smash introduction. I also loved how Banjo & Kazooie's trailer was a continuation of King K. Rool's, which felt like a tribute to the past era when Rare was under Nintendo...an era many fans love and miss. There's also Simon and Richter's trailer, which also features references to the Castlevania series while also adding the crossover element to it by having Luigi in it. Then there's Terry's reveal trailer almost felt more like a reveal for a retro collection of Neo Geo games.

Stuff like that is also what draws interest to the characters and their series too. It's also fun to learn about what all the references are or just coming across something in a game that fans may recognize from the trailer. So if a trailer can do that, the no way they should get rid of those.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

We've made it to 1100 pages! Huzzah!

Unrelated, but I beat the Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trilogy the other day. Anybody willing to talk Ace Attorney in Smash?

If we ever got Ace Attorney in Smash i would want the stage to be based on the Great Ace Attorney rather than Mainline.

I feel like the courthouse from the great ace attorney would lend itself better to being converted into a smash stage

 

[fogbadge]

I don't know if that's the reason he was made playable, but his Congratulations screen

HAS to be the Smash team going "Yay! He got his chance for real!"

that always felt like they were making fun of chrom to me. the sentiment "well done for making it in" feels patronizing coming from the people who kept you out in the first place

Adding on to this, I find it funny how Smash's tendency to do fake outs ends up enhancing other trailers inadvertently, like with Splatoon 3's announcement.

you actually thought that was for splatoon 3?

 

[Garteam]

I miss how excited everyone was for Robin when he was announced. Awakening's popularity was soaring at the time and concerns about the series' representation were only in their infancy. There was a vocal portion of the community was really on board with Robin, but a lot of people thought Chrom was inevitable or never really humoured the idea. So, it was pretty wild to see Robin show up, effectively becoming the series' first JRPG mage (unless you want to count Ness and Lucas).

It sucks how powercrept Robin currently feels. His magic tools were never really oppressive enough to justify the character's speed or the limited durability mechanic, but it's especially bad when you see some of the crazy things that other resource management characters get. Nothing Robin has gets even close to being as crazy as Arsene or Minecart. If Robin can't get some much-needed improvement to his mobility, those tomes should be really damn good to make up for that issue.

Thread tax; I hope Robin returns in the next Smash and gets his due.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I miss how excited everyone was for Robin when he was announced. Awakening's popularity was soaring at the time and concerns about the series' representation were only in their infancy. There was a vocal portion of the community was really on board with Robin, but a lot of people thought Chrom was inevitable or never really humoured the idea. So, it was pretty wild to see Robin show up, effectively becoming the series' first JRPG mage (unless you want to count Ness and Lucas).

It sucks how powercrept Robin currently feels. His magic tools were never really oppressive enough to justify the character's speed or the limited durability mechanic, but it's especially bad when you see some of the crazy things that other resource management characters get. Nothing Robin has gets even close to being as crazy as Arsene or Minecart. If Robin can't get some much-needed improvement to his mobility, those tomes should be really damn good to make up for that issue.

Thread tax; I hope Robin returns in the next Smash and gets his due.

I think Hero does the whole spellcaster-swordsman thing in a much more fun way than Robin does.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think Hero does the whole spellcaster-swordsman thing in a much more fun way than Robin does.

I don't like the way EITHER of them does it.

Smash is no place for mana bars.

 

[superprincess]

I think the problem with Robin is that his tomes aren't good enough to justify a whole durability system to keep them in check. It'd be like if Zelda's spells were held back by a magic gauge, but with no buffs to make up for it. Robin feels held back essentially for no reason.

Compare that to someone like Hero. His spells are super powerful, but use them unwisely, and your character becomes sucky. But it's up to you and your strategy. Robin's weapons running out is up to the game itself. You're pretty much guaranteed to lose at least one tome and your Levin Sword in a game, but there's nothing to make up for that. Those tools aren't oppressive enough.

TLDR; Robin's basic design is great, but he needs an extensive balance rework.

 

[NintenRob]

Since others do it, I'm gonna share my own video here

Smash Bros has a Kirby problem, all the major content Kirby receives in Smash Bros all comes from the same 4 games, specifically the games Sakurai has worked on. And just how widespread this bias from Sakurai is.

 

[smashkirby]

On the flip side of Zero, who I feel like has an actual shot to make it in, are there any characters you really want to see that you think have such a low chance that you would feel like you’re just throwing your vote away by voting for them if we ever got another Smash Ballot?

Just about ANY Japan-only Nintendo character (i.e. Donbe & Hikari, Goku & Chao, Lip, Parabo & Satebo, Takamaru, Diskun, Prince Sable, Barbara the Bat, etc.)
A vast majority of retro characters, be they from Nintendo, SEGA, Capcom, Namco, Konami, and SNK (i.e. Alice, Excitebiker, Bahn, Honey, Jin Saotome, Saki Omokane, Bravoman, Wonder Momo, Twinbee, Shiori Fujisaki, Mimi & Nyami, Anyone who ISN'T Terry, Athena, Nakoruru, Kyo, Iori, Rock Howard, or the Metal Slug quartet).

Yeah it's hard to really say. For all we know, syn Sophia could've simply preferred to work with a different publisher, or maybe Nintendo just didn't have the same belief in Style Savvy's success continuing on Switch. Maybe there was a pitch to Nintendo but they didn't find it inspiring. This kind of speculation can go endlessly in circles.
In any case, it's no secret that the market right now isn't as ripe for something like Style Savvy as it was in the DS era. Yet, syn Sophia at least thought it would still be profitable enough to put out a successor, and I'm not sure that it's going to be any less successful than Another Code or Endless Ocean. So definitely strange without being able to know what the respective companies were thinking.
As for celebrity endorsements, well, it takes two to tango. Taylor Swift might be out of this game's league at this point. But yeah a little commercial cameo from a celeb can definitely go quite a ways.

It still bums me out, as I really felt like Style Savvy would have had SOME life re-injected into it, what with the Switch's intsall base. Like, I'm certain S.S. could have found SOME sort of audience.

As for celeb endorsements, was Swift (or Blake Lively or Karlie Kloss) really THAT big in 2017, to the point that Nintendo couldn't have afforded them to promote the 4th Style Savvy game? As I've mentioned before, maybe Nintendo could have used Angelique Noir (the S.S. character I mentioned who looked like Taylor Swift in video game form) could have dual-promoted the game with Swift or something.

I like Min Min. She's definitely in my top 3 favourite ARMS characters and I understand the choice to go with her, but...

Looks at profile pic

...I will always be slightly salty over my guy not getting in.

You're not the only one...

I don't hate Min Min, but Spring Man's energetic self... I don't know, I feel like it would have gone a long way for Smash. As I've said when Min Min was first added to Smash, I REALLY hope Nintendo doesn't take Smash as a sign to replace Spring Man (and Ribbon Girl) as ARMS's mascot with Min Min. I'm sorry, but the lattermost just does NOT fit that bill to me.

Which obscure picks do you guys want to be more popular for smash 6. In my case, it would be adol from ys, chosen undead from dark souls and laharl from disgaea

Chibi-Robo, A Style Savvy character, a Pilotwings character (Lark preferably), a Wave Race character (Ryota Hayami, preferably), a 1080 character (Akari Hayami, Ricky Winterborn, or Kensuke Kimachi would be fine).

 

[cashregister9]

you actually thought that was for splatoon 3?

I meant that since it started with the "Not actual footage" notice I thought it might have been smash, but was caught off guard with Splatoon. It was a pleasant surprise.

 

[fogbadge]

I meant that since it started with the "Not actual footage" notice I thought it might have been smash, but was caught off guard with Splatoon. It was a pleasant surprise.

Ok then

 

[Gorgonzales]

I meant that since it started with the "Not actual footage" notice I thought it might have been smash, but was caught off guard with Splatoon. It was a pleasant surprise.

As soon as I saw "Not Actual Gameplay Footage" I just said "It's Smash." in the group voice call I was in while watching the direct. To this day I still think that was the only instance of that disclaimer being used for something other than Smash.

Since others do it, I'm gonna share my own video here

Smash Bros has a Kirby problem, all the major content Kirby receives in Smash Bros all comes from the same 4 games, specifically the games Sakurai has worked on. And just how widespread this bias from Sakurai is.

Great video! Well-researched and you made your point very clear, props to you.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

As soon as I saw "Not Actual Gameplay Footage" I just said "It's Smash." in the group voice call I was in while watching the direct. To this day I still think that was the only instance of that disclaimer being used for something other than Smash.

Several Pokémon trailers have used it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Which obscure picks do you guys want to be more popular for smash 6. In my case, it would be adol from ys, chosen undead from dark souls and laharl from disgaea

I see Adol as another Terry situation; a character that gets brought up but whose chances were often underestimated, despite how important his series is in video games.

He'd make an interesting character for Smash.

 

[SPEN18]

It still bums me out, as I really felt like Style Savvy would have had SOME life re-injected into it, what with the Switch's intsall base. Like, I'm certain S.S. could have found SOME sort of audience.

As for celeb endorsements, was Swift (or Blake Lively or Karlie Kloss) really THAT big in 2017, to the point that Nintendo couldn't have afforded them to promote the 4th Style Savvy game? As I've mentioned before, maybe Nintendo could have used Angelique Noir (the S.S. character I mentioned who looked like Taylor Swift in video game form) could have dual-promoted the game with Swift or something.

Clearly there is an audience, enough for syn Sophia to view Fashion Dreamer as a profitable venture. The question is more why Nintendo didn't come back to publish under the Style Savvy branding. Maybe they had a different estimation of the size of the audience, but that's pure conjecture.
Tbh I couldn't tell you on the celebs. Of course, it's not a matter of whether Nintendo has the funds to do it, but whether the funds required would be deemed worth it and whether the celeb thinks it's a good move for them and their image.

I don't hate Min Min, but Spring Man's energetic self... I don't know, I feel like it would have gone a long way for Smash. As I've said when Min Min was first added to Smash, I REALLY hope Nintendo doesn't take Smash as a sign to replace Spring Man (and Ribbon Girl) as ARMS's mascot with Min Min. I'm sorry, but the lattermost just does NOT fit that bill to me.

I agree with this sentiment. I actually really like Min Min as a character but Spring Man was just so fitting to represent the series in Smash. It felt very forced to put anyone else in, like trying too hard to subvert expectations or put the hip fan favorite in (even if that wasn't the case, it just comes off that way at a passing glance).

 

[fogbadge]

Several Pokémon trailers have used it.

it's usually "gameplay not final" with them. barring a few cinematic segments here and there

 

[7NATOR]

Since others do it, I'm gonna share my own video here

Smash Bros has a Kirby problem, all the major content Kirby receives in Smash Bros all comes from the same 4 games, specifically the games Sakurai has worked on. And just how widespread this bias from Sakurai is.

I Haven't watched the Video yet, but I will say after Forgotten Land became the Best-Selling Kirby game in the series, if there is no Major content from any of the Recent Kirby characters, it's definitely a Conspiracy.


Speaking of Conspiracy, do you guys have any thoughts about why Smash 64 isn't on NSO yet? It's the 5th best selling game on the 64 and shouldn't have any rights issues since all the content in the game is owned by Nintendo. It's also not a Rare game either unlike Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64 (Where Diddy Kong racing has Banjo and Conker as playable, and there might be a Minigame in DK64 that's owned by Rare).

 

[Shinuto]

I Haven't watched the Video yet, but I will say after Forgotten Land became the Best-Selling Kirby game in the series, if there is no Major content from any of the Recent Kirby characters, it's definitely a Conspiracy.


Speaking of Conspiracy, do you guys have any thoughts about why Smash 64 isn't on NSO yet? It's the 5th best selling game on the 64 and shouldn't have any rights issues since all the content in the game is owned by Nintendo. It's also not a Rare game either unlike Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64 (Where Diddy Kong racing has Banjo and Conker as playable, and there might be a Minigame in DK64 that's owned by Rare).

Saving it for direct.

 

[Noipoi]

Saving it for direct.

Implying we're getting any Nintendo directs any time soon

 

[Ivander]

Implying we're getting any Nintendo directs any time soon

View attachment 385868

I mean, there were rumors of Nintendo showing a tease of the Switch 2 this month. Whether they do or not is another story and even then, most likely it'll be around the end of the month.

 

[Louie G.]

Since others do it, I'm gonna share my own video here

Smash Bros has a Kirby problem, all the major content Kirby receives in Smash Bros all comes from the same 4 games, specifically the games Sakurai has worked on. And just how widespread this bias from Sakurai is.

Multiple times through this video I'd start saying "but what about-" and then you'd chime in with exactly what I wanted to say. Good stuff! Very knowledgeable and I think your points are made clearly and not taken in bad faith - a trap some of these kind of rants tend to fall into. As someone who hasn't been quite as bothered by this as others, and whose favorite Nintendo series is also Kirby it was a good watch.

And I agree with your point about Bandana Dee's exclusion kinda making sense up to this point, but this moment being the strongest for him yet after Forgotten Land. Because like, really mapping it out I feel like Smash 4 was a little too early to make that call and I don't think any of the base game Ultimate newcomers would have deserved to be excluded in his favor. But with presumably upwards of 10 newcomers in a future title, going back to basics, Bandana Dee is at least in a much stronger place and has strengthened his role in the series beyond "Player 4" and recurring helper. I'll personally sleep just fine at night if Kirby remains a three character series, especially with a condensed roster, but surely there's a lot of room to grow even ignoring the roster itself.

Your video highlighted to me that the only Smash game that has really cemented this issue in a significant way is Smash 4. The lack of RTDL content is outright baffling since back then I considered Lor Starcutter or maybe Nutty Noon to be one of the most no-brainer stage choices. I actually really like Great Cave's aesthetic and it's probably one of my favorite Battlefield / Omega Stages, but it's hard to defend it. I wonder how we all would have felt if we got that Epic Yarn stage that was apparently being considered, but neglected in favor of Woolly World. Nightmare is also one of the most disappointing ATs in the game, I'd defend him a lot harder if he at least did something but making the screen dark is just tremendously boring. Like, his boss fight in Adventure teleporting around and turning into his ball form would have been really cool as a more active AT that actually fights, but instead we got this. I would gladly sacrifice him for Magolor or even Bandana Dee (at least at the time, I recognize it might sting a bit now). Nowadays we have other compelling options such as Taranza or Susie who I'd be just as glad to see.

I genuinely think if we saw an AT from RTDL, a Lor Starcutter stage and maybe a few more music tracks we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. At least not as passionately. Forgotten Land is Kirby's most successful outing since his first adventure and I'm in agreement that it would be shocking not to see it celebrated in the next game. I could have said something similar about RTDL back in the day, but I do think the stars are aligning here.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Actually, this brings up an interesting question I've had rattling around in the back of my mind for a while. A lot of people reckon the next Smash would probably be a reboot or at least draw content back to somewhat manageable levels, and presumably this would include anything from characters and stages to music and Spirits/Trophies (or whatever they end up going with.)

On that, if you had the option - would you want this reboot to have more of a focus on promoting recent stuff and keeping up with the current Nintendo in a lot of ways, but at the cost of some older stuff that's deemed less relevant, or would you want to have it have more of a focus on "representing" each series' history through the content it includes with a more "COGH"ish (or, well, "CONH") vibe?

 

[Jave]

On the topic of trailers. I still think Pac-Man's Smash 4 trailer is my least favorite because, while the initial reaction was pretty hype (Pac-Man was my most wanted at the time), he REALLY got the short end of the stick in regards to the cinematic portion of the trailer. Of all the things they could have done, they did some random "Red, Blue, Yellow" thing with Mario, Sonic and Mega Man, and when you compare it to other Smash 4 newcomers like Rosalina and Greninja (who got amazing trailers that made great use of fake out), it really makes you go, "Wow, really?"

 

[BritishGuy54]

Actually, this brings up an interesting question I've had rattling around in the back of my mind for a while. A lot of people reckon the next Smash would probably be a reboot or at least draw content back to somewhat manageable levels, and presumably this would include anything from characters and stages to music and Spirits/Trophies (or whatever they end up going with.)

On that, if you had the option - would you want this reboot to have more of a focus on promoting recent stuff and keeping up with the current Nintendo in a lot of ways, but at the cost of some older stuff that's deemed less relevant, or would you want to have it have more of a focus on "representing" each series' history through the content it includes with a more "COGH"ish (or, well, "CONH") vibe?

I think it’s quite complicated. Ideally, a balance should be struck. I’ll go with relevance if I really had to choose. I like the ‘time capsule’ feeling of every Smash game so far.

Some series within Smash are just built differently. Despite Mario and Fire Emblem both having a comparable number of characters, they have those faces for different reasons, at a fundamental level of how those series operate.

Most franchises tend to fall somewhere on the spectrum. Mario and Kirby have recurring casts, although the latter is more privy to rotating its villain selection. Fire Emblem and Xenoblade have rotating casts, but the latter seems more keen on some recurring elements.

Zelda is when a franchise tries to be both rotating and recurring. As such, the main cast has many different interpretations deemed different enough to include as different characters. This is why Young Link and Toon Link are on the roster.

Splatoon on paper is a rotating wider cast with recurring elements in DLC. But the base Inkling/Octoling you play as every game is basically identical, bar some weapon additions and gameplay changes.

Other franchises likely have these things to think about, and it’s important to measure these series differently.

 

[Louie G.]

On that, if you had the option - would you want this reboot to have more of a focus on promoting recent stuff and keeping up with the current Nintendo in a lot of ways, but at the cost of some older stuff that's deemed less relevant, or would you want to have it have more of a focus on "representing" each series' history through the content it includes with a more "COGH"ish (or, well, "CONH") vibe?

Smash without Nintendo's storied history accounted for is plain white bread. Star Fox, F-Zero, Mother are some of the seasoning that keep Smash as fun and compelling as it is. I don't really care about arbitrary relevance and I don't see any reason why we as fans should try and mandate that either. A lot of great characters sitting among my favorites don't have a lot going on right now and shoving them out is not what this series is about. Smash is so much more than a summary of whatever Nintendo's core brand is at the time.

So in the process of pruning the roster I would try and balance out the old and the new. Old legacy series can stay just as well as brand new series deserve grow and be accounted for. More representation for series that have seen tremendous growth like Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Pikmin. New IPs and contemporary characters are maintained and fresh new kids on the block like Ring Fit Adventure should be acknowledged. But this focus coming at the expense of the old is not what Smash is about, and honestly what I'm posing here is just par for the course for newcomer selection. Which is to say I don't expect nor do I endorse a full on reboot to begin with.

Content beyond that should be varied. We have fun nods like Color TV-Game, Sheriff, Mr. Game & Watch that allow Nintendo's earliest gaming history to be celebrated. I'd take it even a step further and add some items that tackle their history as a toy company, like the Ultra Hand or some degree of Hanafuda card acknowledgement. If they can't be playable, bring back ATs like Saki and Ray Mk III - representatives of the corners of Nintendo history that don't get any love elsewhere. Stages should certainly come from the freshest games for those who are getting them, but a few "retro" picks or digging deeper into the history of series that aren't getting a whole lot of new material keeps it varied. Say what you will about Sonic repesentation for example, but I actually like that he's got one old stage and one new one. Should not be from Lost World next time, but at least there's a precedent here of striding that line.

Hell, on top of that, bring in more stages and sufficient representation from the series that aren't getting playable characters. Meaningful content doesn't begin and end with playable characters and as a fan of Rhythm Heaven for example, I would have loved a stylish stage with great music. Monster Hunter feels a bit barren with just Rathalos, when it could sustain a beautiful stage. I want more situations like Smashville, and they can come from series old and new.

Soundtrack should be made of remixes from both old games and new ones. Granted, new games typically need rearrangements less to feel suitable for battle. There's a reason we don't have a ton of Xenoblade remixes or anything, the ones we do have are outright not as good as the main game soundtrack lmao. Topical, but Kirby certainly warrants a bit more attention in this respect and I'd like if some new remixes pulled from his later history. Most of the other series do a pretty good job at this, although I'd have liked some songs from say... Odyssey to get a remix just because. Even if it's not totally needed and those songs work well enough as is, but it's understandable why older content is favored for arrangement.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Hell, on top of that, bring in more stages and sufficient representation from the series that aren't getting playable characters. Meaningful content doesn't begin and end with playable characters and as a fan of Rhythm Heaven for example, I would have loved a stylish stage with great music. Monster Hunter feels a bit barren with just Rathalos, when it could sustain a beautiful stage. I want more situations like Smashville, and they can come from series old and new.

Soundtrack should be made of remixes from both old games and new ones. Granted, new games typically need rearrangements less to feel suitable for battle. There's a reason we don't have a ton of Xenoblade remixes or anything, the ones we do have are outright not as good as the main game soundtrack lmao. Topical, but Kirby certainly warrants a bit more attention in this respect and I'd like if some new remixes pulled from his later history. Most of the other series do a pretty good job at this, although I'd have liked some songs from say... Odyssey to get a remix just because. Even if it's not totally needed and those songs work well enough as is, but it's understandable why older content is favored for arrangement.

Adding to all of this, I'd love for all third parties (both base and DLC) to really dig deep for included content. Give me Mana music with a Square Enix character, spirits from Konami's classic arcade titles, Mii Costumes from Phantasy Star and Shining Force with Sega, elements from Microsoft owned IP's for the stage creator. Just really go nuts with the celebration beyond actual fighters.

 

[NintenRob]

Great video! Well-researched and you made your point very clear, props to you.

Multiple times through this video I'd start saying "but what about-" and then you'd chime in with exactly what I wanted to say. Good stuff! Very knowledgeable and I think your points are made clearly and not taken in bad faith - a trap some of these kind of rants tend to fall into. As someone who hasn't been quite as bothered by this as others, and whose favorite Nintendo series is also Kirby it was a good watch.

And I agree with your point about Bandana Dee's exclusion kinda making sense up to this point, but this moment being the strongest for him yet after Forgotten Land. Because like, really mapping it out I feel like Smash 4 was a little too early to make that call and I don't think any of the base game Ultimate newcomers would have deserved to be excluded in his favor. But with presumably upwards of 10 newcomers in a future title, going back to basics, Bandana Dee is at least in a much stronger place and has strengthened his role in the series beyond "Player 4" and recurring helper. I'll personally sleep just fine at night if Kirby remains a three character series, especially with a condensed roster, but surely there's a lot of room to grow even ignoring the roster itself.

Your video highlighted to me that the only Smash game that has really cemented this issue in a significant way is Smash 4. The lack of RTDL content is outright baffling since back then I considered Lor Starcutter or maybe Nutty Noon to be one of the most no-brainer stage choices. I actually really like Great Cave's aesthetic and it's probably one of my favorite Battlefield / Omega Stages, but it's hard to defend it. I wonder how we all would have felt if we got that Epic Yarn stage that was apparently being considered, but neglected in favor of Woolly World. Nightmare is also one of the most disappointing ATs in the game, I'd defend him a lot harder if he at least did something but making the screen dark is just tremendously boring. Like, his boss fight in Adventure teleporting around and turning into his ball form would have been really cool as a more active AT that actually fights, but instead we got this. I would gladly sacrifice him for Magolor or even Bandana Dee (at least at the time, I recognize it might sting a bit now). Nowadays we have other compelling options such as Taranza or Susie who I'd be just as glad to see.

I genuinely think if we saw an AT from RTDL, a Lor Starcutter stage and maybe a few more music tracks we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. At least not as passionately. Forgotten Land is Kirby's most successful outing since his first adventure and I'm in agreement that it would be shocking not to see it celebrated in the next game. I could have said something similar about RTDL back in the day, but I do think the stars are aligning here.

High praise, and I really appreciate it. One thing I wanted to avoid is being too negative towards Sakurai as he really is a wonderful director, which is why I included that bit at the end where I emphasize that I wouldn't want a different director.



Now who do I talk to about getting this on the front page

 

[RileyXY1]

I would hate it if Smash decided to only focus on modern Nintendo with the next game.

 

[Shinuto]

Smash without Nintendo's storied history accounted for is plain white bread. Star Fox, F-Zero, Mother are some of the seasoning that keep Smash as fun and compelling as it is. I don't really care about arbitrary relevance and I don't see any reason why we as fans should try and mandate that either. A lot of great characters sitting among my favorites don't have a lot going on right now and shoving them out is not what this series is about. Smash is so much more than a summary of whatever Nintendo's core brand is at the time.

So in the process of pruning the roster I would try and balance out the old and the new. Old legacy series can stay just as well as brand new series deserve grow and be accounted for. More representation for series that have seen tremendous growth like Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Pikmin. New IPs and contemporary characters are maintained and fresh new kids on the block like Ring Fit Adventure should be acknowledged. But this focus coming at the expense of the old is not what Smash is about, and honestly what I'm posing here is just par for the course for newcomer selection. Which is to say I don't expect nor do I endorse a full on reboot to begin with.

Content beyond that should be varied. We have fun nods like Color TV-Game, Sheriff, Mr. Game & Watch that allow Nintendo's earliest gaming history to be celebrated. I'd take it even a step further and add some items that tackle their history as a toy company, like the Ultra Hand or some degree of Hanafuda card acknowledgement. If they can't be playable, bring back ATs like Saki and Ray Mk III - representatives of the corners of Nintendo history that don't get any love elsewhere. Stages should certainly come from the freshest games for those who are getting them, but a few "retro" picks or digging deeper into the history of series that aren't getting a whole lot of new material keeps it varied. Say what you will about Sonic repesentation for example, but I actually like that he's got one old stage and one new one. Should not be from Lost World next time, but at least there's a precedent here of striding that line.

Hell, on top of that, bring in more stages and sufficient representation from the series that aren't getting playable characters. Meaningful content doesn't begin and end with playable characters and as a fan of Rhythm Heaven for example, I would have loved a stylish stage with great music. Monster Hunter feels a bit barren with just Rathalos, when it could sustain a beautiful stage. I want more situations like Smashville, and they can come from series old and new.

Soundtrack should be made of remixes from both old games and new ones. Granted, new games typically need rearrangements less to feel suitable for battle. There's a reason we don't have a ton of Xenoblade remixes or anything, the ones we do have are outright not as good as the main game soundtrack lmao. Topical, but Kirby certainly warrants a bit more attention in this respect and I'd like if some new remixes pulled from his later history. Most of the other series do a pretty good job at this, although I'd have liked some songs from say... Odyssey to get a remix just because. Even if it's not totally needed and those songs work well enough as is, but it's understandable why older content is favored for arrangement.

I hate counterattacks remix it's awful

 

[Ivander]

Hell, on top of that, bring in more stages and sufficient representation from the series that aren't getting playable characters. Meaningful content doesn't begin and end with playable characters and as a fan of Rhythm Heaven for example, I would have loved a stylish stage with great music. Monster Hunter feels a bit barren with just Rathalos, when it could sustain a beautiful stage. I want more situations like Smashville, and they can come from series old and new.

Soundtrack should be made of remixes from both old games and new ones. Granted, new games typically need rearrangements less to feel suitable for battle. There's a reason we don't have a ton of Xenoblade remixes or anything, the ones we do have are outright not as good as the main game soundtrack lmao. Topical, but Kirby certainly warrants a bit more attention in this respect and I'd like if some new remixes pulled from his later history. Most of the other series do a pretty good job at this, although I'd have liked some songs from say... Odyssey to get a remix just because. Even if it's not totally needed and those songs work well enough as is, but it's understandable why older content is favored for arrangement.

I agree that there should be more stages for series even without characters. And man, how Toby Fox really spoiled us with both Sans and Megalovania and then later we got Cuphead + Floral Fury and then Shantae + Burning Town. After those happened, I wish each DLC Mii Costume had a music track to go with them.

 

[NintenRob]

I agree that there should be more stages for series even without characters. And man, how Toby Fox really spoiled us with both Sans and Megalovania and then later we got Cuphead + Floral Fury and then Shantae + Burning Town. After those happened, I wish each DLC Mii Costume had a music track to go with them.

The only Mii Costumes I bought were the ones that came with music, if all them came with songs, I would be a poorer man

 

[Curious Villager]

Actually, this brings up an interesting question I've had rattling around in the back of my mind for a while. A lot of people reckon the next Smash would probably be a reboot or at least draw content back to somewhat manageable levels, and presumably this would include anything from characters and stages to music and Spirits/Trophies (or whatever they end up going with.)

On that, if you had the option - would you want this reboot to have more of a focus on promoting recent stuff and keeping up with the current Nintendo in a lot of ways, but at the cost of some older stuff that's deemed less relevant, or would you want to have it have more of a focus on "representing" each series' history through the content it includes with a more "COGH"ish (or, well, "CONH") vibe?

I feel like Smash 4 mainly focused more on recent/relevant stuff at the time barring the third parties and Duck Hunt, but it also made its newcomer line up feel a bit more predictable or formulaic for lack of better term. I think I prefer the way Brawl did it where it felt like they casted a wider net throughout their past and present which made things feel a bit more interesting.

Third party's notwithstanding since they tend to play a different game of their own for the most part.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I feel like Smash 4 mainly focused more on recent/relevant stuff at the time barring the third parties and Duck Hunt, but it also made its newcomer line up feel a bit more predictable or formulaic for lack of better term. I think I prefer the way Brawl did it where it felt like they casted a wider net throughout their past and present which made things feel a bit more interesting.

Third party's notwithstanding since they tend to play a different game of their own for the most part.

Actually, barring the likes of Pit and R.O.B., Brawl did the same exact thing.
It's just less obvious because a lot of the more relevant stuff happened to be characters that have existed for longer.

More times than not, rosters are majority contemporary.